WW2 Aerial Photo Question

[windriver]

Is it possible to determine from the information on this photo the subject Squadron and aircraft? Best guess so far is Leeming based and RCAF...

http://www.aviationancestry.com/Aerial-1.jpg



This one doesn`t have a legend but on the reverse is annotated Pilsen 15/16th April 1943

http://www.aviationancestry.com/Aerial-4.jpg

[forget]

For what it's worth - here's the location today.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/framzelle.jpg

[Double Zero]

I suppose if you are really lucky the annotation ' F.O.Blackwell ' might lead you somewhere...

I was first struck by the pasting the place had received, but then seeing the modern photo' giving the location, not so surprising.

BTW there's a nuclear reactor there now isn't there ?!

[S'land]

Interesting to note that a number of what appear to be bomb craters in the top left of the original photograph appear today on the Google shot.

[Double Zero]

Which leads us to wonder, did the French do a REALLY thorough search before building the nuclear plant ?!

I used to work at Dunsfold Aerodrome, which the old Wey & Arun canal runs along one side of.

It was discovered that in wartime, any scrap including live ordnance was just shoved into the canal.

In the 1980's British Aerospace made the chap doing the dredging sign a form along the lines of " I willingly understand I might get blown up " !!!

[l.garey]

Look at Google Earth with the blue spots (indicating photos) selected: you will see ground views of the bomb craters and the gigantic gun emplacements in those fields!

"Framzelle Rd" on the original aerial photo refers to the village in that area. Maybe "Rd" means "Raid" ...? But what is the code "MEL"?

[hoodie]

There's no nuclear power station at Cap Gris Nez - if there were, there would be a "ZIT" marked on the charts.

Fascinating pics - thanks.

[HighTow]

This isn't a recon photo is it? It's a bombing assesment photo? I read about those being taken after bomb release using a large flash/flare at night.

I've got tons of WWII aerial recon photos at home but the markings are consistent but nothing like those.

[Rafair7643]

Would this be of any use?

Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers (http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=3291)

It appears that Lancaster LM587 was lost over Cap Gris Nez on the date 26:9:44.

Cheers

Stew

[Rafair7643]

Sorry, did not realise that my post needed to be approved.

I meant that the info link I posted may give you a starting point.

Sorry again, I'm a bit new here

edit: Now this one's appeared ahead of the first :ugh:

Cheers

Stew

[Rafair7643]

Okay dokey,

I will try this again, as it seems my original post has gone walkabout (it does mean something)

From what I can find, Lancaster LM587 took part in a daylight raid that day;

"Lost on a Daylight operation to Cap Gris Nez. No record of total hours. Airborne 1500 from waddington to attack strong points. Came down at Wissant (Pas-de-Calais), a smallish village on the coastal highway runnung between Calais and Boulogne. all are buried in wissant Communal Cemetery. The crew combination was unusual in that it comprised two Navigators and three Air Gunners. F/O Tottenham RAAF came from Mullinger, West Meath, Republic of Ireland. F/L A.B.Tottenham DFC RAAF KIA Sgt R.J.Patrick KIA F/S R.C.Brookman RAAF KIA F/O M.A.Oakley KIA W/O B.G.D.Dillon RAAF KIA W/O S.W.Smith RAAF KIA F/S R.J.Acres RAAF KIA P/O N.J.Bowman RAAF KIA F/O J.E.Morris KIA "

This occured whilst serving with 463 Sqn RAAF (so that might be a starting point!!). It was one of only 2 Lancs lost on this raid.

Hope it helps

Stew

[Rafair7643]

The second piccie also shows a Lancaster, which was no doubt involved in a raid on the Skoda Works in Pilsen.

According to the RAF History the actual date was 16th/17th;


16/17 April 1943

327 aircraft - 197 Lancasters and 130 Halifaxes dispatched to bomb the Skoda armaments factory at Pilsen in Czechoslovakia. 18 Lancasters and 18 Halifaxes lost, 11.0 per cent of the force. One Canadian squadron, No 408, lost 4 of its 12 Halifaxes dispatched. This raid, took place by the light of a full moon but was not a success. In a complicated plan, the Main Force was ordered to confirm the position of the Skoda factory visually; the Pathfinder markers were only intended as a general guide. In the event, a large asylum building 7 miles away was mistaken for the factory and only 6 crews brought back bombing photographs which were within 3 miles of the real target. The Skoda factory was not hit. One report says that 200 German soldiers were killed when their barracks near the asylum was bombed.

Cheers

Stew

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Are you sure that's a Lanc? It looks about the same level that the poor bloody Halifaxes used to be doomed to.

My Uncle Arthur (Dad's Brother-in-law) was attached to a Canadian Halifax squadron and one of the few things he would say was how he feared bombs from above more than AAA and night fighters when late over target.

[gbh]

Some suggestions: (based on info seen on other aerial photos but no expertise)
MEL = three letter code for Airfield or Station where photos were processed (RAF Melbourne)
1450 = photo reference number (or time?)
26.9.41 = date
8" = camera focal length or type
9000 = height of bombing run (in feet)
053T = direction of bombing run in degrees true
1006 = ? (time? or photo reference number)
E1 = ?
9x1000 = 9 x 1000lb bombs in stick
4 x 500 = 4 x 500lb bombs in stick
c. 25 secs = stick length? (time to drop all bombs?)
Framzelle Rd = target
F/O Blackwell = pilot
H = aircraft tail letter
10 = squadron (10 Sqn RAF, operated Halifax bombers from Melbourne)

[PPRuNe Pop]

If you fly over Cap Griz Nez, you will as 'S'land' says see rather more of shell holes and bomb craters (more of the former) for it pitted very significantly.

[HighTow]

I guessed a lot the same as gbh although I wonder if 1006 is the barometric pressure.

[gbh]

Windriver: Post it here and you will almost certainly get some replies from the experts.

Main Category - RafCommands Forums (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1)

[windriver]

Thanks everyone for input...will follow links suggested and repost if anything new learned.

Meanwhile here are the other 2 I have from the same "donor"

http://www.aviationancestry.com/Aerial-3.jpg


http://www.aviationancestry.com/Aerial-2.jpg

Don`t quote me but apparently the RAF were confident enough to drop these during subsequent PR sorties...

[S'land]

To my warped sense of humour it looks as though the timing of that leaflet drop was just right for that German soldier.

[gbh]

There goes the pressure theory! So, 1006 and 1110 would appear to be the time of day - and 1410 + 1450 the photo reference number (or vice versa)

No 10 Sqn ORB (Ops record book, RAF Form 540 or 541) would almost certainly be available at the National Archives, Kew, and would give more details about the raids.
Detecting your browser settings (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=3199415&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5)
Also check the appendices to this file - often holds extra info.

Warning: this type of research is highly addictive!!

[Rafair7643]

I agree it's certainly at an altitude more in keeping with the Halifax. The only reason I thought Lancaster, was the slight sweep in the wings, which of course could just be the result of the angle.

Cheers

Stew

[Jackneville]

It might still be a lanc. For the thirteen 460 RAAF crews this was a complex , eight hour + op. at low level, the majority being flown at 250 AGL and lower. They had to climb to their bombing altitude which was 8000',2000' feet higher than the min. height for dropping a cookie. As previously noted, the Path Finders got it wrong and only one out of 327 crews successfuly bombed the Skoda Factory and had the photos to proove it. That was a 460 crew in C for Charlie. Three 460 crews did not return.
In 2003 I spoke to the navigator of one of the 460 crews, I think he was a teenager in 43 and sixty years later he was still upset that his crew had competely missed the target because they had incorrectly identified a turning point on the Danube. The bomb aimer had been map reading in the bubble and giving the pilot a running commentary on the terrain ahead, he thought an approaching river junction was their turning point and so instructed the pilot , the nav knew that on time and distance this was not correct and so instructed the pilot. The pilot was of course devoting a large amount of his grey material to complying with Rule No.1, Don't hit the Ground, something that he had successfully adhered to in his previous 650 hours of aviation. Confronted with this dilemma he went with the bomb aimer who had a much louder voice on the interphone and had been doing rather well up until then. This wrong decision was to become consequential for the residents of a small German town who had gone to bed with their street lights on. It also nearly became very consequential for a lancaster crew who discovered that 6000 feet was really a bit low to drop the cookie and subsequently had to report that the only damage they suffered on this op. was self inflicted.