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View Full Version : Disruption at LHR due to George W Bush


brakedwell
13th Jun 2008, 14:02
Anybody know when Air Force One is due to land at Heathrow on Sunday? I'm meant to be meeting an inbound T3 flight at 10:30. :ugh::ugh:

grundyhead
13th Jun 2008, 14:14
Don't think you'll get the answer on an internet forum.

MI5 now tracking your IP address Brakewell

brakedwell
13th Jun 2008, 14:31
Oh dear will they lock me up for 42 days? :rolleyes:

tapilot
13th Jun 2008, 14:36
Yes we will - but you'll get £42000 compensation!

411A
13th Jun 2008, 14:43
Don't know about his arrival at LHR, but when he came to PHX two weeks ago, AF1 was scheduled to arrive at 14:15, and the airplane landed at precisely....14:15

Scheduled to depart at 20:45, departed....20:44

Now, I can't personally say much anout his policies, but on time he most certainly is.

brakedwell
13th Jun 2008, 15:04
Surely the USAF Colonel in the left hand seat should take the credit for on time performance.

qsyenroute
13th Jun 2008, 15:22
Its called Brize Norton isn't it? And aren't those whirly things called helos.
Oh well why do the obvious secure and efficient solution when you can disrupt Heathrow, delay thousands of pasengers and assuage your green credentials by forcing aircraft into holding patterns.

brakedwell
13th Jun 2008, 15:33
Oh well why do the obvious secure and efficient solution when you can disrupt Heathrow, delay thousands of pasengers and assuage your green credentials by forcing aircraft into holding patterns.

It's called an ego trip.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
13th Jun 2008, 15:43
<<Surely the USAF Colonel in the left hand seat should take the credit for on time performance.>>

Nope - the Air Traffic Controllers. At a busy airport it's quite a skilled job to get an aircraft to land at an exact time.

brickhistory
13th Jun 2008, 16:36
It's called an ego trip.

Really?!

So the choice of landing destination is not decided by the host nation?

Damn, we have got to start exercising our power in more direct ways!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Heathrow Director, absolutely! :ok:

Right Way Up
13th Jun 2008, 16:41
Whats a day compared to 8 years of chaos caused by the man. :*

West Coast
13th Jun 2008, 16:55
Next time AF1 should work the pattern at LHR...err multiple circuits. Bush should have stopped off at that new terminal and whipped it in to shape.

brakedwell
13th Jun 2008, 16:57
Nope - the Air Traffic Controllers. At a busy airport it's quite a skilled job to get an aircraft to land at an exact time.

Partially HD, but the landing phase is only one small part of a flight. The aircraft commander is responsible for the timings from pre-flight briefing to arriving on blocks as planned. Adverse winds and weather, enroute air traffic delays and tech problems can and will conspire to ruin his day!

G-CPTN
13th Jun 2008, 17:05
Its called Brize Norton isn't it? And aren't those whirly things called helos.
Oh well why do the obvious secure and efficient solution when you can disrupt Heathrow, delay thousands of pasengers and assuage your green credentials by forcing aircraft into holding patterns.Perhaps Gordon intervened and insisted that Heathrow must be used to cut down on the carbon footprint?

None of the above
13th Jun 2008, 17:17
Mildenhall would have been even better placed than Brize, surely?

N o t a

ShyTorque
13th Jun 2008, 17:43
Perhaps Heathrow is easier to find?

pineridge
13th Jun 2008, 18:39
Grundyhead said..........


"MI5 now tracking your IP address Brakewell"




Too late, CIA had him cold at 1503.

ZH875
13th Jun 2008, 19:02
As Gee Dubya seems to have Hijacked the Armed Forces of the UK as his own assets, surely he should be treated as a hijacker and made to land at Stansted airport, then remain indefinitely in the UK.

West Coast
13th Jun 2008, 19:08
Then it would only be him and other immigrants inhabiting blighty in the long run.

brickhistory
13th Jun 2008, 19:13
As Gee Dubya seems to have Hijacked the Armed Forces of the UK as his own assets, surely he should be treated as a hijacker and made to land at Stansted airport, then remain indefinitely in the UK.

Again, really?! Then I hope he moves some decent muscle to hold to the Falklands until we can develop the oil there.

Of course, we'll have to use our carriers and ships to get that muscle there.

Not to mention, that even France found the gumption to stand up to 'the man.' Amazing that the Frogs found a spine to say 'non,' but not you.

As the Iranians discovered.

West Coast
13th Jun 2008, 19:16
Of course, we'll have to use our carriers and ships to get that muscle there.


Good God man, tell me you're not inferring the RN doesn't rule the oceans anymore.

STN Ramp Rat
13th Jun 2008, 21:03
High quality none sensational reporting from the Daily Mail .....

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1026137/Thousands-passengers-face-delays-cancellations--allow-President-Bushs-Air-Force-One-jet-land-Heathrow.html

Hundreds of thousands of passengers at Heathrow face lengthy delays and even cancellations this weekend because of George Bush's visit to London.

The U.S. President is refusing to fly in to a military base and has demanded that he land at the world's busiest airport. Security concerns mean arrivals of commercial flights will be almost halved for an hour before the fleet of planes, including Air Force One, touches down on Sunday.

President George Bush and his wife Laura will land at Heathrow on Air Force One on Sunday. But their visit is set to cause chaos at the world's busiest airport Industry experts predict the knock- on effects will last for up to six hours. Departures will also be hit because planes arriving late will not be able to turn around quickly enough to meet take-off times. The entire process will be repeated when the President leaves on Monday.

Last night Heathrow sources were predicting chaos at the airport, whose image is still recovering from the Terminal Five fiasco. 'For some inexplicable reason Bush wants to fly in to Heathrow,' a source told the Mail. 'It is going to cause massive delays and possibly even some cancellations. It is ridiculous and the arrangements are total overkill.'

The fleet includes the 747s Air Force One and Two, a smaller 757 and four helicopters. Yesterday, there were some minor delays after air space over Heathrow was cleared for two hours to allow a military cargo plane carrying the President's armoured cars to land at nearby RAF Northolt.

Today there is also likely to be some disruption when the four helicopters land and sit on the tarmac for an hour as part of a dress rehearsal. According to airport sources, an hour before Mr Bush arrives the number of flights allowed to land will be cut from 42 to 24 an hour. Once he has touched down the restrictions will be gradually lifted.

There is even a suggestion that a runway will have to be closed before touch-down so that it can be inspected by security sources. Similar limits will be in place again on Monday when Mr Bush leaves. 'We think the knock- on effects will last for at least six hours,' an insider said.

'Although it hits arrivals first, departures later in the day will also be affected because airlines won't be able to turn round planes in time and crews will need sufficient rest breaks. If a plane doesn't come in on time then it doesn't go out on time.

'This is basically going to effect everyone flying in or out of Heathrow on Sunday and Monday and a fair few people on Friday, too.' Airlines had only been told on Wednesday about the plans and it was claimed last night that the Department for Transport had also been kept in the dark as all arrangements had gone through the Foreign Office.

Mr Bush is visiting London as part of his farewell tour before he leaves the White House next January. Defence officials believe the president and his entourage could have landed at RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire or the vast U.S. airbase at Lakenheath in Suffolk.

'No one knows why on Earth he wants to come to Heathrow,' one said. 'It's not as if he is going to stay and have a look around.'

Airbubba
13th Jun 2008, 21:24
Don't know if the UK PM ever comes to the U.S. but I guess he could land at JFK if he wanted to.

Ancient Mariner
13th Jun 2008, 21:31
There might be an ever so slight difference in size between the Pres and the PM's luggage.
Per

Duck Rogers
13th Jun 2008, 21:35
Sorry but this is the third time it's been posted today. Other threads currently running in Jet Blast.

Two's in
13th Jun 2008, 22:09
So they've just opened (well, nearly) a brand new terminal at Heathrow, you're all about to fight swampy and his mates again to get a "much needed" third runway inquiry, all the transatlantic carriers that were exiled to Gulag Gatwick have flocked to take up the available slots at LHR, the Heathrow Express was specifically designed to get passengers in London, and yet when a visiting the Head of State intends to actually use the self-acclaimed "UK's Number One Airport", the Daily Mail vomits up this piece of loathing and envy about George Bush. I'm sure that POTUS landing at LHR will drive house prices down in tomorrow's Goebbels Digest from Paul Dacre.

Trinity 09L
13th Jun 2008, 22:59
So they are bound to use 09L, then meander around the airport to the southside Royal enclosure. Then for some reason :E 09R is not available for departures:eek: and the Cranford agreement is busted:p

GAXLN
14th Jun 2008, 00:10
Having returned to Newcastle nearly four hours later than planned (my NCL flight was one of five BA flight cancellations from LHR this afternoon), as a result of what appears to have been a practice involving a few helicopters in advance of George W Bush's arrival at LHR on Sunday, can someone explain to me why the British Government allows the World's busiest international airport to be brought to a standstill for the US President? It is after all an operating commercial airport which is slot controlled - are travellers to Amsterdam, Manchester, Brussels, Newcastle and Aberdeen not worthy of some consideration in the matter? My flight had a runway and terminal slot so why was it cancelled? Did the US Government apply for slots as surely they should have been turned away and directed to an alternative airfield? Heaven help LHR on Sunday when he comes in for real as I fear today's five cancellations may become more on Sunday. Anybody in the know care to comment?

CityofFlight
14th Jun 2008, 00:31
This topic has been discussed ad nauseum today in several threads--which can be seen in their entirety on Jet Blast.

:D I do applaud you for questioning the UK's decision to accept Air Force One at LHR, rather than taking a shot and blaming the disruption on the President. (as you'll see in the other threads)

King Halibut
14th Jun 2008, 00:37
Oh, ok, it's his fault anyway cos he's a bum! :ok:

eagle21
14th Jun 2008, 00:46
Is all probably a distraction manouvre, most likely he will end up landing at STN, or any military airfield nearby, I can't see any advantage for him to land at LHR, unless he is hoping to find some confidential files abandonned at the baggage hall at T5...

con-pilot
14th Jun 2008, 01:08
As was stated earlier it is the host country that picks the airport. Unless there is an security issue the US must agree to use that airport.

So send your complaints to Number 10 Downing Street.


(Hopefully President Bush will not decide to have a haircut, as Clinton did when he was in LAX and kept LAX shut down for an additional hour and a half. :p)

CityofFlight
14th Jun 2008, 01:23
Haircut?...is that code for "Monica".

411A
14th Jun 2008, 01:26
POTUS lands, folks salute, and mind their manners...end of story.
IF not...off to jail.

Like it or not...and I suspect most here will not.
Tough beans.

Those of us in the USA don't especially care.
Period.:E:E

arem
14th Jun 2008, 10:34
411A

Those of us in the USA don't especially care.

So - whats new - most in the usa never have - except for themselves

radeng
14th Jun 2008, 11:20
Chaos for us because one useless stupid has been is visiting another useless stupid has been!

brickhistory
14th Jun 2008, 11:34
Those of us in the USA don't especially care.

So - whats new - most in the usa never have - except for themselves

Not our fault. Y'all should've tried harder.

BRL
14th Jun 2008, 11:35
There are notams for Fairoaks being closed from 1300 to 1530 so I imagine he will be arriving sometime then.

Howard Hughes
14th Jun 2008, 12:03
At a busy airport it's quite a skilled job to get an aircraft to land at an exact time.
At a time fortyfive minutes after the time it could have made without any intervention from ATC! :eek:

Anybody can use a computer to slow aircraft down to a predetermined time!:rolleyes:

Effluent Man
14th Jun 2008, 13:49
I would guess that if Her Maj was going to travel to the US she wouldn't be expected to go through the channels along with the rest of us Hoi Polloi.So it seems only fair to accord Mr.Bush the same status.I would maintain this position if he was called Clinton,McCain,Obama et al.

Just because you disagree with his policies is no reason to behave with rudeness,it just isn't a British thing to do.

radeng
14th Jun 2008, 14:50
Efflent man,

If Her Maj went to the US, I doubt that she'd insist on going through an airport which had to effectively shut down, disrupting a lot of people's travel. Dubya, on the other hand, by his deliberate mean and selfish refusal to use a mil air base, is just getting his ego stroked by making sure everyone is aware that he's here.

So he's the rude, selfish bas^&*d

Dream Land
14th Jun 2008, 14:50
Nope - the Air Traffic ControllersNo disrespect to ATC but they have nothing to do with me operating on schedule where I live, terrible.

brickhistory
14th Jun 2008, 17:00
Dubya, on the other hand, by his deliberate mean and selfish refusal to use a mil air base

I really am curious how this myth has been born. I read the extract earlier in the thread. From where did the paper get its information?

Does the US really get to dictate to the UK how/when/where Air Force One will land?

Man, it has got to suck being in such a wimpy country that you don't get to control your own airspace and other heads of state can just waltz in when and where they please. Hell, even France doesn't allow that.

But, now I understand the origins of the 'lie back and think of England' saying while getting screwed.

Think about it. Does it seem at ALL plausible that GWB personally set the ground rules for this visit? No. 10, et al, had no say in the matter of timing, location, etc? That US and UK military and security forces didn't collaborate to the nth degree?

It's just easier to be stupid, I guess.

brakedwell
14th Jun 2008, 19:40
The thoughtless, inconsiderate half baked decision to let George Dubya snarl up the travel plans of thousands of passengers has to come from number 10. Not to mention the added cost of the delays which airlines will be landed with.

West Coast
14th Jun 2008, 20:59
snarl up the travel plans of thousands of passengers

Are you talking about Terminal 5, British Airways...or was it President Bush?

FLCH
14th Jun 2008, 21:07
Maybe George wants to see what it's like to "glide" into Heathrow ??

MadsDad
15th Jun 2008, 10:42
Read a long time ago about a President (Carter, maybe) who decided that to get from somewhere to somewhere else he would use the roads, rather than using an expensive helicopter (plus cost of back-ups etc.).

He only did it the once since because the police had to close and guard every road junction on the way it ended up costing a lot more in manpower and disruption than a few helicopters would.

parabellum
15th Jun 2008, 13:19
George W. won't have had anything to do with the decision to land at LHR, that is a fact, it is what suits the big picture, be that political, security or what is most appropriate.

On VIP flights the crew are given a "Door Opening Time" which is the time they are expected to have arranged their arrival, in conjunction with ATC, so that they land and taxy and then open their door to coincide with the greeting party who may be lower order or HM Her Self. Quite difficult stuff, subject to wind, other traffic, length of taxy etc. No one should be kept waiting unreasonably, be they visitor or greeter.

Trying to rubbish G.W.B over this is just pathetic and Brits who like it should be ashamed of themselves.

samg
15th Jun 2008, 20:25
I've just got home from a day working on the ground at LHR and am still trying to comprehend how 1 man can be allowed to cause so much chaos and bring LHR to a standstill. I can not understand why George Bush is allowed to fly into Heathrow, meaning everything else just has to stop and wait. With Northolt so close why use Heathrow which is already full to the brim and can't cope with the traffic it already has. It has caused 1 - 2 hour delays on departures already delayed due to; I was told 30 mins holding, plus 30 mins on the ground waiting for stands to become available. With the financial costs to the airlines for these delays as well as the inconvenience caused to thousands of passengers why did someone not object to this? The worst thing is no matter what is said, nothing will be done and exactly the same will happen next time.

speedmarque
15th Jun 2008, 20:30
I could not agree more! How the hell was this allowed? How dare he be allowed to cause disruption of this kind?

Its just another case of UK bending over and touching our toes, and waiting for a shafting! Doing whatever the Americans say!

What has the cost been to UK PLC?

I am so angry about this, I am flying tomorrow and am sure to lose money if this man is flying out of LHR!

What time is he leaving?

GRRRRRRR!

411A
15th Jun 2008, 20:33
Oh gosh, the POTUS seems to have gotten a few folks in a snit.
Well, think again.
The host country decides on the airfield to be used, subject to security concerns....so, if you want to complain, direct your vibes to number 10, Downing Street.

And...see if it will, do any good....good luck, Bubba.
We, in America, couldn't care less, as it is a Brit caused 'problem'.

Over to you, samg.

speedmarque
15th Jun 2008, 20:35
Hey, theres a big world outside of America you know!

The press were reporting his DEMAND to land at LHR!

Leader of the free world.......as long as we all do what were told!

Will Hung
15th Jun 2008, 20:36
Perk of the job when you're the most powerful man in the world.

Oh ! and the biggest W****r !

Just hope the CIA don't monitor Pprune, otherwise it's Guantanamo here I come !

742
15th Jun 2008, 20:37
Let me assure you that this American does not like it either. And it did not used to be this way.

This "stop all traffic" started with the Reagan administration, and seems to get worse with each change. I donít know if it is symptomatic of the growing Imperial Presidency or my countryís slide into a police state. Maybe both.

Airbubba
15th Jun 2008, 20:38
Just to think a couple of centuries ago, it was the other way around, America worked for the Brits.:)

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble...

con-pilot
15th Jun 2008, 20:41
411A, I know just as well as you do that the "host" country selects where a visiting VIP lands. It is just too bad that these folks here that love to sling arrow indiscriminately at any chance to bash the US and Bush cannot be bothered to check a few blatantly obvious and easily found facts out.

As you posted,

so, if you want to complain, direct your vibes to number 10, Downing Street.

Not to mention that there are two threads running on this very subject in Jet Blast. :rolleyes:

stilton
15th Jun 2008, 20:44
Well, unfortunately it's the same here in the states, the idiot in chief seems to always fly into commercial airports bringing everything to a standstill.

If this is for 'security concerns' then why does he not avail himself of the numerous nearby military bases ?

Yahweh
15th Jun 2008, 20:45
He was supposed to fly into Ireland a few months back. An awful lot of tax payers money was spent on security. And then he does'nt turn up.

God Bless America ;)

speedmarque
15th Jun 2008, 20:45
What's the point of complaining to there.....it's just an annex office of the White House these days!

G-ARZG
15th Jun 2008, 20:49
err, Northolt?

in a 747 - that I'd pay to see !

Sailor Vee
15th Jun 2008, 20:53
He was supposed to fly into IrelandHe did and I couldn't get home that night. The following day I ended up on a 'diversion' to get home that used up about 20 'extra' miles to achieve that, even the Gardai were p*ssed off except for the overtime they were earning!:suspect:

RAT 5
15th Jun 2008, 20:54
As he is 'Commander in Chief' of the miltary U$ style why does he not want to fly into the cosy nest of Brize Norton where all the guns and medals will make him feel at home? Come to think of it; if Greenham Common or Upper Heyford were still active would he have opted for them? I doubt it coz no photo opportunities. Considering that he has 'bushwhacked' the world economy why not another kick in the crotch for a struggling ally as a parting gift. Considering the 'sue you' culture UK has adopted from the USA, I wonder from whom, and how much compensation will be sought?

speedmarque
15th Jun 2008, 20:54
The UK government maybe, the people of the UK, no.

There are some excellent quotes on this thread from our US "betters".

They prove everything that the world thinks about the USA is true:ok:.

Carry on! You are proving my point.:ok::ok::ok:

ubreakemifixem
15th Jun 2008, 20:55
Samg Northolts runway is too short for Air Force One.The disruption at Lhr was not too bad today.I only witnessed a short delay of a few aircraft one of those was the Qantas B747 standing for 45 minutes by Term 4.I am sure the punters understood that there delay was due to an important man!

Sick Squid
15th Jun 2008, 20:55
My sources tell me the host country did not offer this, it was specifically at the request of Bush: apperantly he had been offered Brize and Northolt but wanted LHR for his last tour of Europe. But the man from Del Monte, he say yes, and it all stop.

Hey, my sources may be wrong, but regardless, a crass decision. Does he fly into or out of JFK at all? Same thing.

Oh yeah, and curb your jingoism... some posts gone already, more to follow if you don't all play nicely with the other children.

SOTV
15th Jun 2008, 21:07
Everybody puts the emphasis on security. The essence of security is knowledge. By advertising the arrival airport it compromises security.

Perhaps a flight to Pretwick/Shannon/Wherever in an unmarked private jet followed by a trip by light twin to White Waltham/ Elstree/ Biggin and a forward journey by a bog standard Mondeo will provide better security at a fraction of the cost.

Less knowledge = better security.

BEagle
15th Jun 2008, 21:08
When does the dimwitted idiot go back from whence he came?

airfoilmod
15th Jun 2008, 21:17
and if you think about it, the common folk of each nation are identical twins compared with their resemblance to their respective leader. I have more in common with anyone from UK than I ever hope to have with McCain, Bush, Obama, etc. And yet I am taught that my President is just like me, my family, etc. To think Bush gives me a millisecond's presence in his troubled cranium is absurd. Same for you my brother, Brown relates to you? Like a Martian to a Plutonian my friend. Dingoes are brighter than Jingoes.

Airfoil

clipstone1
15th Jun 2008, 21:18
well if Brown told him where to land, why didn't he choose his home country Scotland?

or a better alternative...land at CDG, there a nice little train str8 to Gare Du Nord, then a very quick train from there into St Pancras.....best answer.....

londonmet
15th Jun 2008, 21:23
My god 411A has her head up her arse doesn't she?

mickjoebill
15th Jun 2008, 21:29
Perhaps the civil servants knew what the public response would be and allowed it to go ahead....


Mickjoebill

206Fan
15th Jun 2008, 21:39
even the Gardai were p*ssed off except for the overtime they were earning!

LOL, only time you will see them doing some work:E

Sailor Vee
15th Jun 2008, 21:46
doing some work'work' consisting of 'you can't go down that road even if you live there'!

sorry, should have been 'youse and dat' !!

redsnail
15th Jun 2008, 21:48
If you think Bush is bad, just wait and see what Putin will do when he decides to fly.... :mad:

Muizenberg
15th Jun 2008, 21:48
Well when GWB leaves LHR, why not delay/divert/cancel AA, UA, CO, DL, NW and US flights...ensuring that BA, BD and VS can operate all their flights as near to schedule as possible.

This measure will ensure that Corporate America shares in the losses inccured by UK plc from Friday until today...

Oh yeah, all the holding delays sure has helped waste fuel and further increase CO 2 emissions. Then again Kyoto was never an interest of GWB.

Poof in Boots
15th Jun 2008, 21:57
There wasn't much of a reception committee for Bush at LHR; just the US ambassador and his wife. Even when his helicopter landed at Windsor Castle, no senior ministers or royalty to greet him.

GWB is now 'persona non grata', an embarrassment, a lame duck President, impotent politically and mentally.

Why did he bother coming to the UK? Even his own Press back home are not bothering to report it.

airfoilmod
15th Jun 2008, 22:07
You may consider that our Press aren't reporting about Bush in UK, not because of their attitude about Bush as unimportant, but, uhh, the other way round.

randyat1001
15th Jun 2008, 22:08
Madsdad, it was Clinton that did the roadtrip for a golf outing. I had the pleasure of being stuck in the traffic nightmare caused by it on I 66 leaving DC. The State Police closed every entrance ramp on his route not allowing traffic on until the motorcade was long past.
Regards, Randy

CHINOOKER
15th Jun 2008, 22:27
GWB is reportedly due to leave LHR early afternoon on monday,so expect another day of chaos!
With regard to this "flying circus",well i'm very surprised that the climate change brigade havn't shouted from the rooftops yet!....Not only has GWB have his 747 at LHR plus a back up a/c,he also has another two a/c,(another 747 and a 757),in Mildenhall,plus 6x helicopters in Northolt.
Along with this,his 2 presidential cars were airlifted into Northolt by C17 transport a/c,(2x),and these will subsequently will be collected later along with the 2x presidential helos by more C17s.
Seems a bit OTT for what is basically a 24hr stop-over!!

x933
15th Jun 2008, 22:35
Why did he cause hours of mayhem at LHR?


Simple.



Slot restrictions at Farnborough ;-). We were thinking, got in there first!

fmgc
15th Jun 2008, 22:53
Flew over Chequers today. Big helicopter in the back yard.

Anything to do with GWB?

I think that it is outrageous that anybody should be able to cause so much chaos just because of who they are.

I am a Royal fan but was a little miffed when our Queen caused the roads in my home town to be closed due to a visit.

Flame
15th Jun 2008, 23:17
Have not seen this anywhere else yet...but the "BA176" and VS010" both diverted into DUB this afternoon enroute JFK-LHR, were both of these diversions as a result of the LHR disruption caused by the visit of GWB..??

411A
15th Jun 2008, 23:33
...but the "BA176" and VS010" both diverted into DUB this afternoon enroute JFK-LHR, were both of these diversions as a result of the LHR disruption caused by the visit of GWB..??

More than likely, the crews concerned simply didn't uplift sufficient fuel to cater for the published NOTAM.:rolleyes::hmm:

G-CPTN
15th Jun 2008, 23:56
or a better alternative...land at CDG, there a nice little train str8 to Gare Du Nord, then a very quick train from there into St Pancras.....best answer.....As GWB was actually in Paris for the last couple of days . . . :ugh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7454459.stm

point5
16th Jun 2008, 00:01
Just back from a chaotic shift in the tower. Not much fun for the controllers either i can tell you. He's due out at 1pm tomorrow as far as i am aware. We will be single runway for half an hour while he does his stuff then back to standard. Shouldnt be as crazy as today.

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 00:32
Hey, theres a big world outside of America you know!

Yes, but it's so quaint and boring....

The press were reporting his DEMAND to land at LHR!

So, the press screws up 90% of its other reporting, but you're good with this one. Right...

Leader of the free world.......as long as we all do what were told!

There, there. Now just run along and be a good lackey. You tug your forelock for the EU, why b1tch about this?

My sources tell me the host country did not offer this, it was specifically at the request of Bush: apperantly he had been offered Brize and Northolt but wanted LHR for his last tour of Europe.

Two points if I may: 1. If your 'sources' are in the know, then what on earth are they and you blabbing about it here for? I suspect however, your 'sources' are more of the 'my cousin got it from a friend who knows a guy who knows a guy....' rather than from the professional British security forces. They are very good.

2. Northolt?! Damn, I knew the pilots of Air Force One were good, but not that good. Unless we're gonna leave it behind as a permanent static display, I put this up there with the rest of the caliber of your 'sources' information.

Finally, even if requested ,which I seriously doubt, doesn't the government of Great Britain have the backbone to say 'no?' Apparently not. Guess we'll have to look to the French, et al, for that. Re-using a line on the other similiar thread, now I know where the saying 'lie back and think of England' when getting screwed comes from.

Please, man up and blame your government. It is their and your airspace, airport, etc. Bush wanted to do his 'farewell tour' and include the UK on the T-shirt. You could have booked him at another venue.

But the man from Del Monte, he say yes, and it all stop.

"It's good to be the king."

"PULL!"

Skipness One Echo
16th Jun 2008, 00:43
So the retarded moron that the US was dumb enough to inflict upon us stops everything at Europe's busiest airport and thousands of people are inconvenienced.
I think that
1) It's not been this bad before, so why is this so bad today?
2) Real steps have to be taken to prevent this happening again.
3) Can some journo ( we know you're out there ) please RUN with this.....

wiggy
16th Jun 2008, 00:51
Well the diversions could have been down to us stupid Brits being unable to understand NOTAMS, on the other hand the 5 hr plus delay the 176 suffered at JFK could have started the rot....but don't let the possibility that the f**k was at the American end stop you from speculating and Brit bashing on the basis of nil knowledge.

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 00:53
from speculating and Brit bashing on the basis of nil knowledge.


"Pot to kettle, come in, over....."

Overdrive
16th Jun 2008, 00:58
Luckily, it's not the end of the world.... will all be forgotten after tomorrow.

Not every day can be the same.

G-CPTN
16th Jun 2008, 01:17
2. Northolt?! Damn, I knew the pilots of Air Force One were good, but not that good. Unless we're gonna leave it behind as a permanent static display, I put this up there with the rest of the caliber of your 'sources' information.
On 25th October 1960 a Pan Am Boeing 707 N725PA, heading for Heathrow, mistakenly landed at Northolt with 41 passengers on board.
After off-loading all cargo and with minimum fuel it departed 25th October 1960 for the short flight to LHR:-
http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1001607

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 01:21
G-CPTN, terrific. A vanilla 707 barely made it out. And it still went to LHR.

Are you seriously joining the 'could've gone to Northolt' brigade with a straight face, er, keyboard?!

So then the cries would be of 'dangerous Yank pilots' or the like.

Not to mention AF1 isn't exactly vanilla and taking enough stuff to get it out would be long and expensive, I'd bet.

G-CPTN
16th Jun 2008, 01:27
Nah! You have to realise that I rarely opine, though I frequently inform (often with tongue in cheek I must add).
A suggestion springs to mind that the Spooks could have extended the runway (flying in equipment in the C17s). After all, the French built a whole airport (Tegel) in three months during the Berlin Airlift, using equipment broken-down for air-transportation and then re-assembled . . .

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 01:36
I get that you usually puncture other's hot air, and I've had my share of deflations.

This 'outrage' just takes the cake for me, however. It's the UK, it's the UK's airspace, it's a UK airport, the UK government had to at the very least, agree to the landing site, etc. Yet GWB can just do as he pleases according to the crowd here. Hence, my pointing out that nasty UK sovereignty thing each and every time. Blame starts at much closer to LHR than the White House, it seems to me.



And for the Berlin Airlift, also using Coastal Command Sunderlands for landing in the lake (forget the name) in the Allied sector. :ok:

Cyclic Hotline
16th Jun 2008, 01:50
Apparently he wanted the T5 experience!:uhoh:

PJ2
16th Jun 2008, 01:54
Terminal 4 is enough, thank you.

I didn't realize until just now that the Americans and Brits had grown such a distinct distaste for one another. Is it the loss of empire now occurring "elsewhere"?

What ever happened to the love-in between Maggie and Ronnie and their neoliberal economics of employee-busting and profit-binges for corporations? At least it was friendly while they both gave their respective populations the economic rubber-glove to put it indelicately.

GWB has destroyed the American way and it's position in the world. Instead of making fun, why not just remain silent? It's a far more dangerous world today than eight years ago because of GWB and his cronies; shame and deep concern need contemplation and redress, not derision. In the meantime, we ought to contemplate what will arise as "empire" for history never stops writing.

G-CPTN
16th Jun 2008, 02:21
France agreed to build a new and larger airport in its sector, on the shores of Lake Tegel. French military engineers were able to complete the construction in under 90 days. The airport was mostly built by hand, by thousands of female laborers who worked day and night.
Heavy equipment was also needed to level the ground, equipment that was too large and heavy to fly in on any existing aircraft. A solution was found in a Brazilian engineer who had perfected the technique of dismantling large machines for transport, and then re-assembling them. He was flown in to advise the effort, and using five larger C-82 Packet transports, they were able to move the machinery in. This served the double purpose of helping build the airfield, and demonstrating that the blockade could not keep anything out of Berlin.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade
Berlin had only 2 airports at the outset of the airlift, Tempelhof and Gatow. Soon, it became obvious that a third was needed. Heavy equipment was needed, but there were no aircraft large enough to carry bulky items like that. So, it was cut into smaller pieces, loaded onto one of 5 Fairchild C-82 Packet aircraft, flown into Berlin, and welded back together again. Incidentally, a new power plant for Berlin was constructed this way also. Nevertheless, an area in the French Sector was chosen to become Tegel Airfield. American, French, and German volunteers broke ground on august 5th, 1948. Through dedication, hard work and extreme organization, the first c-54 landed with its 10-ton cargo only a mere three months later. Quite a feat. Tegel, incidentally, is Berlin's main airport today. There was an obstacle in the way on the approach to Tegel, however. A Soviet controlled radio tower caused problems with its proximity to the airfield. Pleas to remove it went unheard. Finally, on November 20, French General Jean Ganeval made a decision. If they would not take it down, he would simply blow it up. So, on December 16, the dynamite was used. The tower fell, and the obstacle was gone.
http://www.spiritoffreedom.org/airlift.html

The accounts include reports of significant losses aggravated by the tight spacing:-
Weather that day was awful, and conditions in Berlin were impossible. Clouds had lowered to the tops of buildings and heavy rain had disrupted radar. One C-54 had crashed and burned at the end of the runway a second landed behind him and blew its tires trying to stop to avoid hitting the burning C-54. A third ground looped on the auxiliary runway.
Pure havoc was reigning supreme. Aircraft were beginning to stack up over Tempelhof and a huge number of airplanes were circling stacked from 3000 to 12000 feet in no visibility conditions.
He called the tower. "Tunner here, send everyone back to their base and let me know when it's safe to come down". To avoid this stacking problem, a new policy was created. Any aircraft that missed its approach was to continue back to its station via the outgoing center corridor. This created a continuous loop of planes to and from Berlin. If a pilot missed his approach, he would immediately become a departure and head back to his base. The loaded aircraft would get a fresh crew and be sent back as a regular flight. In addition, all aircraft were required to fly by instrument rules to maintain the same speed, interval and altitude. This almost eliminated accidents and became the key to the success of the operation.
In addition, no pilot was to be away from his aircraft. General Tunner had seen many aircraft sitting idle, loaded and waiting for their crews to return from inside the terminal. He thought this to be a great waste of resources, therefore the order was sent that no pilot should be away from his aircraft from the time it landed until the time it took off from Berlin. Weather and up to date information was brought out to the aircraft while they were being unloaded, so the crews didn't need to go inside the terminal. In addition, several trucks were outfitted as mobile snack bars and staffed by some of the prettiest Berlin girls. For 13 months, the aircraft under his planning and direction supplied an isolated Berlin - a city under siege - with every product necessary to keep the city and its more than a million inhabitants alive. Coal, heating oil, medicines, food and necessary supplies were airlifted into Berlin in an endless stream of transport aircraft operating at 2 minute intervals day and night in every kind of weather.Soon German volunteers were used for unloading crews at Tempelhof. They would board the aircraft as soon as it stopped and commence unloading. If the crews did an especially good job, they might get a reward, such as a pack of cigarettes or an extra ration. This became quite the incentive, as the record for unloading 10-tons of coal was set at 10 minutes. By April 1949, airlift operations were going rather smoothly, and General Tunner wanted to break up the monotony. He liked the idea of a big event that would show the capabilities of his command, as well as give everyone a big morale boost. He wanted to set a record. In order to do that, much planning was necessary, and it was decided that on Easter Sunday, the only cargo was to be coal. In fact general Tunner wanted to shatter all previous tonnage records set so far. Secretly, coal was stockpiled for the event. Maintenance schedules were altered so that the maximum number of planes was available. Everyone put in extra effort for this special event. From 12:00PM April 15, to 12:00PM April 16, 1949, crews worked overtime to deliver more tonnage than had ever been delivered in a 24 hour period. When it was over, 12,941 tons of coal had been delivered as a result of 1,383 flights without a single accident. As a matter of fact, as a result, the daily tonnage also increased from 6,729 tons a day before the Easter Parade, to 8,893 tons per day, an unexpected benefit.The Airlift officially ended on Sept. 30, 1949, fifteen months after its meager beginnings in June of '48. In total, the US delivered 1,783,572.7 tons, while 541,936.9 tons were delivered by the British totaling 2.3 Million tons from 277, 569 total flights to Berlin. C-47's and C-54's alone traveled over 92 million miles in order to do so. These were astounding figures, considering that in the beginning it seemed impossible to even try. Nevertheless, even the greatest operation is not without risk. A total of 101 fatalities were recorded as a result of the operation, including 31 Americans, mostly due to crashes.

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 02:29
GWB has destroyed the American way

Really? You think I'd have noticed that, what with being an American and living here. Thankfully, we can count on the 'outside' world to tell us the true state of things.

and it's position in the world.

Again, really? A reluctant numero uno I would still venture. May not be for too much longer, but for now, yeah, I think so.

Hey?! Canada, y'all've got some oil up there now, right? Hmmm....

Instead of making fun, why not just remain silent?

Well said.

As I assume, however, that you intend this to only those that would dare point out the gross British errors being stated as facts, namely that that mean ol' selfish GWB stopped the world, or at least LHR, for his own pleasure, I will not be silent. It's just too much fun to make light of the 'special' posters who insist on the truth being what they say versus what the facts are.

Dang, that truth thing can be a real b1tch, can't it?

BEagle
16th Jun 2008, 06:18
When Gorbachev and his entourage visited RAF Brize Norton, on the way to the US, it only took 4 x IL-62s. The KGB were in the one I looked after; they just went for lunch whilst Gorbachev and Maggie T had a chinwag. Raisa went to visit a local school - and we were given coffee and Russian chocolates by a cuddly old grandma and a bevy of beauties in the back of the KGB's jet.

No absurdly over-the-top swarms of Marine Corps helicopters, no armoured limousines, no armed spooks with earphones, etc, just the same discrete level of security as we afford our own royalty.

The Air Force One travelling circus only serves to deepen the understandable loathing many people have for Bush. When Bush went to Frankfurt, it was even worse; not only was the airport restricted but so were Autobahns and railways.

I'm due to fly from LHR today; fortunately Bush should have gone by then so the delays probably won't be much worse than they usually are from this apology for an airport.

Hopefully President Obama will review the need for such an absurd level of security when Bush finally leaves office and the sane world breathes a communal sigh of relief.

Gorbachev's visit improved his standing in the UK enormously as I'm sure would a similar visit from Putin. Whereas Bush........

West Coast
16th Jun 2008, 06:31
When does the dimwitted idiot go back from whence he came?


Beag's, why do you speak in the third person?


we were given coffee and Russian chocolates by a cuddly old grandma and a bevy of beauties in the back of the KGB's jet.



Granny was wired up and could have dropped you in an instant. Had you been of sufficient importance one of those KGB hotties would have gladly had her picture taken with you in a compromising position.



The press were reporting his DEMAND to land at LHR!


Yes of course, the press said it so it must be true. Are you in the market for a bridge as well?

luoto
16th Jun 2008, 06:56
Out of interest, are airlines forced to pay the various EU delay compensation if delays are caused in part due to the "security" situation brought about through the visit?

BEagle
16th Jun 2008, 06:58
The selection of Heathrow is not that surprising, given that it is convenient for the venues Bush will be visiting. Brize would have been unlikely to be available as there is a lot of work in progress at the moment. Mildenhall is rather a long way from London and Windsor, so not much use really.

But quite why this absurd level of security is needed for Bush has yet to be adequately explained - or justified.

And to keep you happy, Westie, when based at Brize I once had to show one of your beloved USMC helicopter drivers how to find the details of the London helicopter routes in the UK AIP - he was surprised to learn that he couldn't just go where he pleased....

Anway, after swapping spit with the simpering little poodle Blair, he will hopefully be on his way to the US again later today.

How long before Prime Minister Cameron will be greeting President Obama on the steps of No. 10?

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 10:07
Et tu, BEags?

The KING of the entourage was that paragon, Bill Clinton. For each of his international trips, the string of primary and back up aircraft was nearly a third more than GWB's.

And for comparing the Russians and HMG's 'footprint' to the US, well, that's just silly.

Difference between coach and first class, you see. (and to forestall the obvious, AF1 being the latter)

Hopefully, President Obama will have to wait at least another four years, but if not, I think you'll find the man likes his perks as much as anyone.

Now, be a good chap and just lie back again. Y'all seem to revel in the position.

I notice no one has refuted the fact that the final decision of when/where had to emanate from No. 10.

Damn those facts, they just continually get in the way.

radeng
16th Jun 2008, 10:51
Delayed 2 hours on Friday and another 2 hours yesterday. That's a cost to my employer of over $500. Still, it's a cost to a Canadian company with a lot of US shareholders.

shack
16th Jun 2008, 11:29
Around about 40 years ago working in Approach at LHR I put Air Force 1 in the hold at Garston, then the s!it hit the fan. I was for a right royal rollicking from the boss Big Ray my defence was a) we were busy and b) the Manual of ATC listed priorities that could be given 1. a/c in emergency. 2.Ambulance a/c. 3.Royal Flights and nowhere did it mention Air Force 1. which proved to be a good defence. What is in todays MATC?

Justin Cyder-Belvoir
16th Jun 2008, 13:14
I was working in Gothenburg when Dubya and his heavies arrived for the G& a few years ago.

The heavies took over half of a floor in the Radisson which happened to be the floor my room was on.

The rooms were ether on the outside of the rectangular building or inside overlooking the atrium; when you exited the single set of elevators you could turn right or left. If your room happened to be opposite the elevator on the other side of the atrium you had to walk around half the building in either direction to get there.

Dubya's boys took over the quarter section from turning right out of the elevator: so if your room, as mine was, was at the "end" of their colonisation you had to turn left from the elevator and walk three quarters of the way round the building to get to your room.

First time I turned right to go back to my room, matey with the big gun tells me "You can't come through here, sir"

"Why?"

"This area has been taken over by the US Govt"

"So where are we?"

"Sir"

"Where are we? In the US or Europe?"

"Europe, sir"

"OK, well when I'm in the US I have to do what you lot tell me but over here I'm a European citizen and I have rights. You on the other hand are a US citizen and don't have rights over me in Europe"

With that I ambled past; next time I came out the elevator they had erected a physical barrier to stop me, and others, going the short way to the rooms!

Didn't make much difference though, I got just as much fun by sneaking in from the other end and swanning past them on the way out.

BEagle
16th Jun 2008, 14:02
Well, I've just watched Air Farce One taxy out, followed by swarms of security goons....

Hopefully that'll be the last England sees of Bush; for once in my life I actually feel sorry for Martin McGuiness as he has to put up with Bush in Norn Irn this afternoon....

As for President Obama, doubtless the hicks and rednecks won't vote for him, for chromatic reasons alone....:rolleyes:

"Shee-hit, Obama? Sounds like that goddamn Osama. Mebbe their cousins?"

Never forget how long it took them to find 7 people in the whole of Urrmerika who were capable of doing a chimpanzee's job in a Mercury capsule!

Justin Cyder-Belvoir
16th Jun 2008, 14:24
Don't the security goons know anything Beags?

They have to turn up at the gate at least 45 minutes before departure to get on board. Chasing the jet and waving their arms won't help ;)

What is this Mur-cane Dream Ticket anyway?

Borat Osama and Hilarious Cee You Next Tuesday -on?

One a former backing backing singer with the Commodores ( did he really allow that photo to be published) and a women who isn't humble enough to get down on her knees, even for the President of the good 'ole U S of A!

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 15:22
Never forget how long it took them to find 7 people in the whole of Urrmerika who were capable of doing a chimpanzee's job in a Mercury capsule!

And yet, to my knowledge any way, there's never been a vehicle containing a man or chimp that had the RAF roundel or the Union Jack on it. The only way a Brit has gotten into space has been riding on our coattails. Seems there's a metaphor there.

Guess we got the better Germans.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

and a women who isn't humble enough to get down on her knees, even for the President of the good 'ole U S of A!

And there, right there, is the difference between Europeans and Americans. Not one self-respecting American would want to tag that 'thing.' Yet your post reads as though you would.

I can see now why France is the dominant (pun intended) power on your little continent.

BenThere
16th Jun 2008, 15:31
One of the best qualities of George Bush is the sublime irony provided as he provokes infantile, substance-free, ad hominem attacks from those who see him as a moron.

Beatriz Fontana
16th Jun 2008, 17:14
Aside from the distruption at LHR, deserving too is a mention of the complete overreaction in London this morning. I've never seen so many police in one area in my life as I did on Whitehall first thing (my fault for taking a short cut!). The road was completely closed and people were being randomly stopped and asked their business.

Lots of helicopter traffic, too. Flipping nuisance.

Suffice to say there's something wrong when there's more security for a visitor than there is for the State Opening of Parliament...

Sadly, I think I'll miss GWB. Just because we'll never have another US President capable of looking so comical on camera (http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1319114,00.html)... (pics number 10 and 16 particular classics)

finfly1
16th Jun 2008, 17:23
Ignored all the coverage, but curious if he put his arm around PM and repeated his famous line "You're doing a helluva job Brownie".

Beatriz Fontana
16th Jun 2008, 17:25
He didn't say 'Yo, Brown!'.... Now that would've been funny.

CityofFlight
16th Jun 2008, 17:33
Yawn...stretch...are you folks done now?

G-CPTN
16th Jun 2008, 17:37
It's an interesting judgement on the vulnerability of the visitor in comparison to 'our' figureheads.
There is security that surrounds HM (and that is probably reasonable). In Denmark (and the Netherlands I believe) it's not unusual to come face to face with their Queen. In Sweden a Prime Minister (Olav Palme) was assassinated in the street (he wasn't 'protected').
Perhaps we could draw up a list of 'most likely to be attacked' (although some might only want to assault or harangue).
Yesterday, protesters were apparently prevented from delivering letters of protest to GWB (there's true Democracy . . . )
So how many layers of protection would such folk as Osama bin Laden, Mugabe, etc - here's the definitive list:- https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/world-leaders-1/index.html

Ozzy
16th Jun 2008, 17:41
Description of pic 3:
In an interview with Sky News, he said he was "really appreciative" of his relationship with Mr Brown on the issue of troops, although he suggested they had not always seen eye-to-eye.

With Mr Broon, I can understand the ease with which that particular feat was possible....:E


Ozzy

Beatriz Fontana
16th Jun 2008, 18:09
Right on the nail there, Ozzy!!

brickhistory
16th Jun 2008, 18:32
Ignored all the coverage, but curious if he put his arm around PM and repeated his famous line "You're doing a helluva job Brownie".

Ok, THAT was funny! :ok:

airfoilmod
16th Jun 2008, 18:53
for some humor and perspective. That the trip was taken seriously by so many and their vitriol was so near the surface, what's up cuz? We learned to take our Prezzez with a ton of salt long ago. "I am not a crook" was our first clue, "I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky" was another. Our system survives the machinations of the puerile and devious because it was designed to, actually by Brits. Ex-pats though they were, they were Brits none the less. Peace?

Airfoil

finfly1
16th Jun 2008, 19:20
Thank you Brick. It was sorta an "in" joke for Americans I 'spose.

kenhughes
16th Jun 2008, 19:49
Slight thread drift, but:

As an ex-pat Brit living in the USA for the last 5 years, I find the politcs and politicians far more palatable over here than in the UK. This may have something to do with the fact that as I'm a Permanent Resident and not a Citizen, I'm not eligible to vote for any of them.

But I think it's more to do with the fact that the President's 'Cabinet' is appointed from outside the elected bodies of the Senate and House of Representatives. So you tend to get people who are actually qualified to run a large government organization in charge of it, rather than some otherwise unemployable MP who has neither the skill or the training to run anything bigger than a toy train set.

And I find that the elected representives do actually try to get something done for their constituents.

There's still corruption here, politicians caught with hookers and politicians caught soliciting in the Men's lavs - but I think, as in the UK, that's more to do with morals than with actual politics.

One thing did surprise me, I thought that having elected judges would result in more sensible decisions from the Bench. But no, there's still seemingly idiotic decisions being handed down on occasion.

BlooMoo
16th Jun 2008, 19:58
Just to lighten the mood hopefully, a frivolous and selfish effort on my part to satirise my own perceptions:

(I'm sure I could make a better choice of images but why waste the time thinking about it when others may do it for you)

How UK politicians see UK society...
http://www.nls.uk/scotlandspages/timeline/img/1950.jpg


How UK electorate sees UK society...
http://haliltunc.com/uploads/img/01/SouthPark.gif


How UK politicians see US Society...

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper901/stills/419a44a788343-57-1.jpg

How UK electorate sees US politicians...
http://www.virginmedia.com/images/wallpapers/movies/teamamerica_1024.jpg

fmgc
16th Jun 2008, 20:03
One of the best qualities of George Bush is the sublime irony provided as he provokes infantile, substance-free, ad hominem attacks from those who see him as a moron.

Shame that he doesn't do it on purpose.

Should the leader of the free world really be seen so overwhelmingly as a moron?

G-CPTN
16th Jun 2008, 20:15
Do we perceive Putin to be similarly moronic?

If not, why not?

Who was the last 'respected' US President?

BlooMoo
16th Jun 2008, 20:33
http://blogs.trb.com/news/politics/blog/ReaganThatcher.jpg

Parapunter
16th Jun 2008, 20:41
I love Americans they speak their mind. Even when there's nothing in there, they'll have a punt! God bless America.

Actually, I really do love the states, such a great place, of wonderful diversity, immense solitudes and a wonderful ideal & I could weep at how such a beacon could have such a rich legacy so damaged in such a short space of time.

Time to mend fences USA.

PaperTiger
16th Jun 2008, 20:44
But I think it's more to do with the fact that the President's 'Cabinet' is appointed from outside the elected bodies of the Senate and House of Representatives. So you tend to get people who are actually qualified to run a large government organization in charge of it.Quite right. Donald Rumsfeld, Michael Chertoff and Alberto Gonzales spring immediately to mind.

:eek:

G-CPTN
16th Jun 2008, 20:49
Who was the last 'respected' US President?
http://online.wsj.com/media/info-presapp0605-all.gif
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html?printVersion=true

con-pilot
16th Jun 2008, 20:51
Quite right. Donald Rumsfeld, Michael Chertoff and Alberto Gonzales spring immediately to mind.

Ah shoot, I can beat them with one name, Janet Reno. :hmm:

Of course the British have always had such sterling, upstanding, extremely honest and forthright people in their government. Right?

Come on now, right?

Let's hear it now, right?


Okay, how about the French? Hum, on second thought never mind. :p

BlooMoo
16th Jun 2008, 22:33
Come on now, right?

Let's hear it now, right?

Right.

I envy the fact that in a true democracy like yours, you can regularly vote as an individual to have your say in how you are Governed.

That doesn't seem to be the 'European' way any more - although Eire are (belatedly) showing their mettle and shining a path - I suspect it will soon fall to the UK - again - to provide the backbone to demonstrate to continental Europe that its naive pretence at global enlightenment under the current nonsense of the EU, is no more than futile self-aggrandising (memories are short over there) posturing on a stage that they don't yet realize is not actually the one the rest of the world is actually interested in or in fact these days believes in either - i.e a socialist one.

kenhughes
16th Jun 2008, 23:32
Okay, how about the French?

Perhaps CDG? :)

Dushan
16th Jun 2008, 23:38
BEagle
When Gorbachev and his entourage visited RAF ...

..., just the same discrete level of security as we afford our own royalty.




So the Brits consider Gorbachev royalty? And then we wonder where all the US bashing comes from.

CityofFlight
17th Jun 2008, 05:03
Folks, it makes my heart proud to read these recent posts. I'm feeling warm and fuzzy about my Cuzzins again. (and my ancestry is Irish/Scot) :ok:

obgraham
17th Jun 2008, 17:33
Sadly, I think I'll miss GWB. Just because we'll never have another US President capable of looking so comical on camera (http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1319114,00.html)... (pics number 10 and 16 particular classics)
Tell you what, Bea: let me know when one of your Euro leaders stops by to pay respects at a cemetery for Euros who died fighting for America.

ORAC
17th Jun 2008, 18:22
Nice overflight at work today from 2 C-17s departing Northolt. One at lunchtime, the other about 4pm.

They Spam birds taking the helicopters and vehicles home after the visit, or RAF ones?

Flintstone
17th Jun 2008, 18:36
Tell you what, Bea: let me know when one of your Euro leaders stops by to pay respects at a cemetery for Euros who died fighting for America.



Happens on a regular basis. 11th of November every year.

G-CPTN
17th Jun 2008, 19:02
Nice overflight at work today from 2 C-17s departing Northolt. One at lunchtime, the other about 4pm.
taking the helicopters and vehicles home after the visit,
One wonders how many sets they have, as such vehicles would be required in Paris (and Rome) . . .

pigboat
17th Jun 2008, 19:19
Folks, it makes my heart proud to read these recent posts.

Just for the hell of it I read the whole thing, not just the recent posts. Un******* real was more my reaction.

Sallyann1234
17th Jun 2008, 19:39
Originally Posted by obgraham
Tell you what, Bea: let me know when one of your Euro leaders stops by to pay respects at a cemetery for Euros who died fighting for America.

Your implication is that Americans died for Europe. When did that happen?
The US didn't join WW1 or WW2 until its own interests were threatened.

con-pilot
17th Jun 2008, 20:23
Your implication is that Americans died for Europe. When did that happen?
The US didn't join WW1 or WW2 until its own interests were threatened.

Well, this thread has certainly taken a hard turn away from the original subject.

Gee, President Bush lands in London and causes some minor problems to the old typical Yank bashing. Well done. :ok:

You know Sallyann1234, that post of yours is just typically of the old saying of "Damned you do and dammed if you don't."

So, I guess you are saying that the United States should join in any and all conflicts that is ongoing around the world whether our interests are threatened or not then?

According to you we should have attacked Japan when Japan first invaded China? We should have attacked Germany when Germany invaded Poland? Shoot for that matter we should have invaded Italy when they invaded Ethiopia?

If so, it's a damn good thing that the US was not a world power when Europe and the UK was invading places all over the world, such as the Americas, Africa, India, China, etc and claiming established nations as the property of Europe and the UK. Because, if we are not to go to war just to protect our interest but for a greater good, according to your post, we would have been fighting your lot for a very long time now.

Oh the humanities, the shame of a country that only goes to war to protect its own interest. I am so sorry. :(

I'll contact my Senator have have him introduce a bill to have the remains of all the young men and women that are buried in England and Europe that gave their lives, just for our own personal and selfish interest you understand, and have their remains brought back to the United States. You see by doing that, we can correct the error that the ultimate sacrifice that they mistakingly gave to save Europe and bring them home where they can be appreciated because they gave their lives for our own selfish interest.

You have made me see the light of truth and righteousness, our young men and women should have died to protect England and free Europe to protect England's and Europe's interest. Instead we potected our own interest, shame on the United States.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
17th Jun 2008, 20:54
envy the fact that in a true democracy like yours, you can regularly vote as an individual to have your say in how you are Governed.Well up to a point, though being a federation rather than a democracy, the president is chosen through the electoral college and not decided by the popular vote.

Also the canditates for the election are chosen through a system of delegates - in the Democratic party at least, I think the Republicans simply select the most looney one available ... or perhaps it just seems like that.

Am now awaiting correction (Oooh Matron!)

Parapunter
17th Jun 2008, 20:55
What I struggle with is the sheer counter-productivity of US military interventions. You would think after so many fnuck ups, Pen Ave would have come up with some form of softly softly catchee monkee over the years??

But no, we've seen the huk intervention leading to Ferdinand Marcos, Iraq, the asassination of Allende leading to Pinochet, the Chinese civil war, American involvement in which may lead us to world war III over Taiwan, the shoring up of a demonstrably unjust Iranian regime which created the fervour that ultimately paved the way for today's mad, nuclear fixated theocracy. I could go on, there's Brazil, Guatemala, Greece, Columbia & Panama.

I'm not even one of the anti Cousins, I admire America for so much of it's contribution but can it not, for once, just for a generation, create a foreign policy that looks past it's own dick?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
17th Jun 2008, 21:25
Interesting question - and speaking as an outsider who is slowly becomming an insider, I would say America's great strength and also its [note no apostrophe :8 ] great weakness is that it believes its own myth.

It's a strength because it helps them to disregard the thought that a goal is unachievable. They may have used left over Nazis, but they made it to the moon. We would never have managed that - well, maybe under Victoria (and only by simply ignoring such bothersome notions as gravity, atmosphere etc), but not now. They just say "We're America and we can do it, and then they simply knuckle down and do it.

It's a weakness because they live on a diet of movies and, as a culture, I think have a difficulty in separating them from reality. They have seen so many movies where they were victorious that they could not imagine Iraqis not welcoming them with a parade of rose petals. As a consequence, they keep engaging in activities that outsiders watch in disbelief, but to them are just another predictable plot line where they must surely come out victorious.


I think I miss the America that made it to the moon, though I wasn't here in those days. To me, that was a forward looking country, with hope and ideals. Something to give to the world. Now it just looks so ... confused.

brickhistory
17th Jun 2008, 22:07
Hey, para, how'd that 'softly, softly' approach work as Britain beat feet out of all her former possessions?

I agree that the elephant dance in the china shop is not always the right call, but pot to kettle.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear God, I agree with aa--rgh. The end is nigh.

airfoilmod
17th Jun 2008, 22:16
Seals, Rangers, a pallet of greenbacks, local ____/English Dictionary a box of hollow points and cyanide tabs. several million dollars as opposed to a trillion or three. Capture their Hearts and their minds.....will follow. Or repeat at step one. Or we could wait for the IAEA, or the pooftas. (OK And some F-16's and Jdams)

Airfoil

Parapunter
17th Jun 2008, 22:22
Truth is most of the UK's skedaddle was economic, especially the jewel in the crown after the war & this was because we were hocked to the cuz's for seeing the usual off & we went cap in hand with Keynes, who broke himself after four days presenting on Capitol Hill only for Harry to say no & we kissed the empire goodbye & paid the loans off until what? ten years ago?

You mean Biafra, India/Pakistan, Egypt? All the more reason for you guys to have learnt from our experience.

airfoilmod
17th Jun 2008, 22:26
The Falklands thingy. Kick ass and take names. Even a royal got in some combat pay/hrs.

Parapunter
17th Jun 2008, 22:37
I think and with no disrespect whatsoever to the fine people who served, that the Falklands was all about saving the neck of the most unpopular politician of all time at that point. Fine job done though, of that there is no question. And I would be careful about Royal pay/what was in the newspapers.

airfoilmod
17th Jun 2008, 22:41
You make it sound like Black ops, parahunter. From this side, I vouch for high fives and smiles around for our cousins defending their Nation's interests. That's for embarrassment??? We stopped eating Argentine Beef
and boycotted McDonalds. Good on ya

Airfoil

Parapunter
17th Jun 2008, 22:48
Not black ops, politics & pr. I won't detract from the war, it was a difficult job executed with fortitude & aplomb, but as a half native, I don't swallow the history as written by the victors so easily.

BlooMoo
17th Jun 2008, 23:42
But the victors invariably get to choose what they swallow...

Parapunter
17th Jun 2008, 23:48
Yeah, that's what I mean.

BlooMoo
18th Jun 2008, 00:06
Yeah. Me too.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
18th Jun 2008, 00:17
paid the loans off until what? ten years ago?
two thousand and six

BlooMoo
18th Jun 2008, 00:54
If so, it's a damn good thing that the US was not a world power when Europe and the UK was invading places all over the world, such as the Americas

Or what?

Stop and think - just for a few seconds and you'll realize the absurdity.

However...

Relax CP, America is still, on everything important, the 'high bar' - just look at the knots Europe is tying itself into to try and compete. They failed before and they will fail again. The UK Government seems to be trying to align itself in both directions so it can be safely ignored now too as a dithering imbecile of a nation (like say Belgium or Luxembourg) that has neither the balls to speak up or the wit to ask how long they must stay bent over.

The US currently has a severe PR problem with continental Europe, but (as you know) they're socialists - ignore them, however much they rattle in their cages and wind you up - Russia/China/India that's where a truly global organisation should focus they're efforts and I'd put my money on the US to do that.

Mid-East? Oil? Worry about them? I think the future value of commodities is very close to the heart of a free nation. Ask Chicago Board of Trade whether they have ever given a sh!t about that kind of stuff. Oil price too high just now? Just a thought but I don't think Henry Ford saw his opportunity because France and Germany outlawed horses...

obgraham
18th Jun 2008, 01:48
Happens on a regular basis. 11th of November every year.Aaahh. I mis-spoke. I was referring to visiting a cemetery over here, devoted to Euros who fought and died over here. Odd thing.....there aren't any.

No disrespect from me to Allied war dead wherever they lie and whichever flag they wore.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
18th Jun 2008, 02:46
I think you'll probably find there were plenty of Europeans fighting in the civil war. Not to mention the many French, without whom you'd still be speaking English :=



...or the Europeans who genocided the native population so that you could actually have a country

obgraham
18th Jun 2008, 04:41
I think you'll probably find there were plenty of Europeans fighting in the civil war. Not to mention the many French, without whom you'd still be speaking English :=So there's a French Military Cemetery here?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
18th Jun 2008, 04:53
Yorktown.

Fancy an American not knowing his own history ;)

West Coast
18th Jun 2008, 05:58
And to keep you happy, Westie, when based at Brize I once had to show one of your beloved USMC helicopter drivers how to find the details of the London helicopter routes in the UK AIP

And to keep on with tradition I'm sure one of your mates actually had to fly the helo in addition.
You make it sound as if I should take something from the story. What should I take from the RAF Nimrod cocking up the airspace above San Diego looking for the initial, which of course he was briefed on.

obgraham
18th Jun 2008, 07:52
Yorktown.

Fancy an American not knowing his own history ;)Hmmm.

From the NPS Historical Handbook Yorktown:
"D. French Cemetery. This is thought to be the burial site of a number of the French soldiers killed during the siege".

Doesn't sound like a "French Military Cemetery" to me. But I won't split hairs. Let me know when Sarky shows up there anyway.

radeng
18th Jun 2008, 10:54
One does wonder just how much it costs the US economy when the Pres goes somewhere and everything gets shut down. It would probably be cheaper to ease back on the security and let the odd one get shot every so often.....Another point is when disaster strikes and the high ups go visiting. To what extent does this get in the way of disaster relief? George B. ought to be seeing about visiting Iowa as things improve: they seem to have had a hell of a time. Having been there quite a few times (but not recently), the river seemed quite small......not now, though. Aviation related of course, that's where Rockwell-Collins have a lot of avionics design and manufacture, in Cedar Rapids.

BenThere
18th Jun 2008, 11:58
Sallyann1234 wrote:

The US didn't join WW1 or WW2 until its own interests were threatened.

Nor did Great Britain or Russia. France barely showed up at all. If you think it through, the only nation that showed up on time in Europe was Germany.

I have no doubt the US will not show up in time for Europe's next war, as well, if even we show up at all. The current state of mutual genteel hostility seems to be working for everyone, despite the implications for the survival of Western civilization.

We didn't show up on time in Iraq, either. It took 12 years to call Saddam on his recalcitrance over the moderate terms of the 1991 peace agreement.

frostbite
18th Jun 2008, 12:51
"France barely showed up at all."


I'm neither a fan of the French, nor a historian, but I do know that France made both a huge contribution and paid a huge price in WWI.

BenThere
18th Jun 2008, 12:55
Very true. I was addressing WWII, though. Should have made that clear.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
18th Jun 2008, 13:26
No you weren't. and your statement that "France barely showed up at all" does a great disservice to the thousands of resistance fighters who gave their lives smuggling downed allied airmen back home, stealing and smuggling out plans of German defenses in prevaration for the invasion, sabotaging German assets etc etc etc not to mention the Free Frech forces who continued to fight, even though their country had fallen.

BenThere
18th Jun 2008, 14:33
No insult intended to the courage and sacrifice of the French resistance. And I was addressing World War II, sir.

The Nazis were vulnerable to French forces during the 'phoney war' period. France elected to wait for the Western offensive from Germany. When it came, France quickly capitulated and played only a very minor strategic role in the outcome of the war. The Brits escaped to fight another day.

In fact, during the course of the war, many allied troops were killed, even aircraft shot down, by Frenchmen. This does not reflect at all upon the resistance fighters who, unlike their government, did not give up or collaborate.

World War I was different. i've been to Verdun and the Ossuary. I understand the suffering of those French soldiers, and wonder at their endurance. And I've been through literally hundreds of small French villages and seen the monuments in the center of every one, etched with the too many names of those who died for France. You will have no argument from me about French performance in WWI. The human cost of WWI in fact explains much of the lack will to fight in WWII.

BEagle
18th Jun 2008, 21:03
What should I take from the RAF Nimrod cocking up the airspace above San Diego looking for the initial, which of course he was briefed on.

That he was an utter ar$e, at a guess, Westie!

All those navigators and pie-munching teenage plastic sergeant wireless opertators on board and he still couldn't find the initial point...:hmm:?

But obviously ideally qualified to do an exchange tour ('assignment') on the B-52 and then be selected for a flypast at (not quite) Farnborough....:E

brickhistory
18th Jun 2008, 21:24
Guess none our guys have been or will be doing a bomber exchange tour with the RAF for quite a while, eh BEags?

Yet the reverse is still an option.....

BEagle
18th Jun 2008, 21:49
Sadly so....

Back in my Tin Triangle days, 'Major Tom' G*r*n*w*k* was our exchange officer, who'd come from flying B-52Ds. Super chap - but had difficulties with the 'word perfect' checklists we used to have to recite:

"Engine airs?"

"Off"

"Nope, try again"

"Shut?"

"No-oo"

"OK - Closed. Whatever - NOT GODDAMN ON!"

He also told us a tale of how he'd bombed some unsuspecting corner of 'a country near Viet Nam' when his bombardier-navigator had dropped on the wrong callsign's 'countdown to release' call. Tom was minding his own business when his Buff shook and rumbled as rather a large number of bombs were released. The other Buffs in the cell asked him if he knew something they didn't....and Tom enquired the same of his BN. It seems that this worthy hadn't realised that there'd been a call-sign change and was actually expecting congratulations for getting his bombs off some 15 minutes before the briefed time....

On return to Guam Tom's feet barely touched the ground - but no-one from 'country X' ever complained!

con-pilot
18th Jun 2008, 22:14
"OK - Closed. Whatever - NOT GODDAMN ON!"

Just goes to show you that if you keep trying you can always get the message across. :p

One time I was in England with a fresh, never out of the US before, co-pilot and someone told us that we had a problem with our 'undercarriage'. The look on his face was priceless, "Under what?".

G-CPTN
18th Jun 2008, 22:35
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