Wyndham Aviation.....Charming? (Not)

[Sunfish]

If this is indeed true, Wyndham Aviation sound like a charming bunch of fellows.

THE grog-ravaged Kimberley town of Oombulgurri became so dysfunctional that more than 100 residents - almost the entire adult population - left their bank card and pin numbers with a charter company, which flew in planeloads of alcohol in return, a coronial inquest was told yesterday.

He said (To the Coroner) the situation had been uncovered when police were called in to investigate a burglary at the company's offices in 2004 in which the cards were stolen. Each card had the pin number attached. It is believed the cards were found shortly afterwards.

Mr Hope has been told dangerously overloaded planes carrying cartons of beer, bottles of spirits and casks of wine were flying into the town, which has no liquor outlet, as often as 25 times a week.

Nothing like giving a helping hand to our indigenous brethren when they need it. I wonder if it's possible to confiscate the aircraft and jail the pilots and operators?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23856123-2702,00.html

[Socket]

Nuthin new there, pilots for the long expired K**gfi***r where chartering the a/c themselves to do the same at Hooker Creek. They were making thousands each flight. They werent the only ones either.:= Actual operators were unaware as they were based in Perth and only saw a charter on the books.

[flying-spike]

Surely this is lower fruit for you. I am stating fact and it would appear you are allowing sub-judice?

[tail wheel]

flying-spike, the posts above relate to matters already in the public domain. As they are direct quotes by the Coroner, derived from reliable witness evidence, one would believe the allegations are true and correct.

Had the potentially defamatory allegations above been made purely on here say with no substantiating evidence (whether in fact, true or untrue), they would have been correctly removed by a Moderator.

[flying-spike]

Are you sure that CASA are not prosecuting over the alleged overloading? My point is that just because a coronial inquest has been held it doesn't mean that investigation and possible prosecution based on evidence given during the inquest doesn't follow.

[tail wheel]

"...and possible prosecution based on evidence given during the inquest doesn't follow."

Australian law does not work that way. In general, evidence gained from a Coroner's Inquest can not be used as evidence in another Court.

I have no interest in whether CASA prosecute or not. My sole interest is whether the quotes contained in the first post above, exist in the public domain.

If The Australian has been untrue in it's report here (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23856123-2702,00.html), their financial resources to defend a libel and defamation action are significantly greater than PPRuNe's non existent resources to defend a similar action.

[206greaser]

Sunfish, i don't really see your point here. Any pilot willing to risk his own life, and the lives of others by overloading his/her plane is an absolute freakin moron! So i get that bit.
I don't get your point about the booze running. Is alcohol illegal in this community? If yes then yes the pilots should be charged, and the aircraft confiscated. If not what's you point? Are you saying that our " indigenous brethren" shouldn't be allowed to make decisions regarding their alcohol consumption? Surely you wouldn't advocate imprisoning pilots because they're carrying legal alcohol?

Really not trying to be a smart ass here mate, but it's a big can of worms to open up.

Cheers.

[Fred Gassit]

I think he is questioning the ethics of a practice that most of us know has been happening for far too long.

If telling yourself "it's their decision" helps you sleep at night then great.

I don't think anyone is going to be jailed for it.

[Van Gough]

I wonder if it's possible to confiscate the aircraft and jail the pilots and operators?


Why? Its not illegal to charter an aircraft for freight is it?

[Clearedtoreenter]

Well, I believe her and she can show me around the back of that jet any time!

Seriously though, what a bunch of hangers on - and we thought things in NSW were bad. Couldn't believe who was there as WAcareflight expert!

[Monopole]

Oombi (AKA Forrest River), is a dry community, but I wonder if they crew have actually done anything wrong (other then morally and overloading the aircraft).

Is it illegal to use somebodies key card if you have their consent? I use my wifes all the time. Booze is not a dangerous goods, so no law broken there. Is there a gazetted bylaw banning the carriage of alcohol into Oombi???

I don't condone this sort of thing. You dont have to look too hard to see the effect of a 'red can' or a 'white lady in da boat' has on the indigenous people. But they should be made accountable for their own community.

I'm amazed though that this story is true. I had always put it down to a Kimberly myth.

[MACH082]

this says it all really :)



http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v110/158/76/725738082/n725738082_181333_135.jpg

[Checkerboard]

Well I actually worked there a few years ago so I can speak having seen it all first hand.

Yes the air charter kept keycards and peoples PIN numbers, up to 55 at one stage while I was there.

The key cards were willingly left by people from this community and Kalumbaru for that matter to pay for flights. More often than not we carried grog on the flights as well people, but very little of the key cards we held were actually used to pay for the grog. They made their own arrangements with the bottle shop in that dept.

While I may not agree with the way many businesses held key cards (dont just single out Wyndham Av!) there was nothing illegal being done. These people have very little understanding of the value of money or how to manage it and if we did not hold there keycards and allow them to pay off flights over a period of time they would not be able to travel or eat! To that i mean if we charged them up front for a full flight in one hit they would have no money left til there next welfare payment. At least this way it was a form of credit and trust between both parties. Many kept a close eye on how much they owed and the owners of these businesses knew if they ever ripped people off news would spread very quickly and they would be out of business.

As for overloading, well it never happened while I was there.

I dont think you can blame the pilots for any of this. Like previous people have said, no rules were broken, while I am not condoning it, it opened my eyes to how the Aboriginal welfare system operates, and how businesses operate in the Kimberely. It has left me with a scathing view on the whole welfare system and the aboriginal communites. Like Monople said these communities need to be held responsible for themselves and not try to blame everyone else.

[Van Gough]

But they should be made accountable for their own community.

I'm amazed though that this story is true. I had always put it down to a Kimberly myth.

It is definately true.

I agree though...they are adults responsible for their own actions. No-one is forcing them to charter aircraft full of booze

[PLovett]

MACH082

You may wish to delete the first photograph. It is now a long time since I have practiced law but there is a good chance that you are at legal risk for publishing that one.

Not saying it is fact just there is a risk. Something about infringing the subject's rights comes to mind.

This is a friendly heads up, not a brickbat.:ok:

[Stationair8]

Obviously Sunfish you have spent to much time in the big smoke.
Cessna C206 is the black man's taxi.
How did the coroner come to the conclusion that the aircraft was dangerously overloaded?

[Checkerboard]

And I like this bit:

Quote:
He said (To the Coroner) the situation had been uncovered when police were called in to investigate a burglary at the company's offices in 2004 in which the cards were stolen.

You mean to tell me this was the first time the police knew of this practice! Ha ha they all knew it was going on!

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Monopole, maybe that was a typo but Oombie is NOT a dry community.

Mach080 you need to edit your post and at the very least obscure the poor man's face (or just get rid of that insensitive photo altogether).


Remember that lasting social change only ever comes from the inside. Yes outsiders can help and encourage but should never dictate. Tragically (and yes I do know the true meaning of tragedy) the people of Oombie have decided that alcohol will be allowed in their community and have given the businesses serving their community rules by which they must operate governing the days, type and quantity of alcohol permitted. I personally believe that they permit way too much... but as I wasn't a resident they didn't let me vote.


FRQ CB

[FARQ]

I was working for Wyndham aviation at the time of said. I'll keep this short:

FACTS-
*Wyndham Aviation closed its doors a year ago. The owner Retired and the AOC sold.
*Ombie is not a dry community!
*A/C DID NOT FLY OVERLOADED!!!!
*Holding of keycards is a common practise in the town of Wyndham and Kunners. I believe it may also be legal if handled and done correctly.I recall a certain department who gave us advise on the holding of keycards.
*Wyndham aviation worked closely with the police and local Grog stores and alcohol was restricted to certain times and days.
* Yes there are and we're massive drug and alcohol problems in these towns and communities ( not the fault of Wyndham Aviation as you seem to suggest).
*The pilots working at Wyndham aviation at said time we're responsible hard working people who valued safety!
*Wyndham Aviation was a well established small charter company with over 30 years operating in the Kimberlies

SUNFISH, If you would like to chat and clarify a few things PM me. It seems you have been miss informed.

[Howard Hughes]

Yes the air charter kept keycards and peoples PIN numbers, up to 55 at one stage while I was there.
Amateurs, the now defunct company I worked for in Darwin between 1999 & 2001, kept around 250 keycards!:eek:

This practice was known about and approved by the banks concerned, the only difference was the money was never used to pay for grog, only flights.:hmm:

[Checkerboard]

I would not say that Sunfish has been misinformed.

He is just one of many city people that draws conclusions from media reports about the aboriginal situation. He has obviously (unlike many others here) not experienced the Kimberely or an aboriginal community for himself.

I find it is the people in large cities that often have such a sympathetic view towards the aboriginal plight and yet most have never even had a conversation with an aboriginal in their life! The top end is another world and unless you have experienced it people in cities just dont know what really goes on.

[SIUYA]

Checkerboard.......

Hear hear :D:D

My experience with the 'problem' was gained in C310s with SAATAS out of Darwin to all ports north on Bathurst and Melville on Saturday afternoons. I then (so-called) graduated to DH114s with Connair more or less doing the same thing.

Having a very drunk 'guest' spewing on me while doing the trim sheet at BTI one afternoon certainly 'cemented' the indelible memory for me of the not-so-fun situations and unhappy memories of booze runs in 'paradise'..............NOT.

It wasn't pretty! :{

[206greaser]

Checkerboard i reckon you're pretty right there mate.

There are so many complex issues in regard to the Aboriginal communities up North, especially when it comes to drinks! In this case what should be done? If the community has "self determined" that they want booze, then isn't that their call? The alternative would be paternalism, and we know how that went over last time!

I had all the problems solved in my first month up there. Then at the three month mark i wasn't so sure anymore. By six months i knew, i knew nothing.

These blokes at Wyndham Aviation probably didn't feel so great about flying booze, but they are not responsible for the actions of the adults that bought it!

Cheers

[Fred Gassit]

No they are not responsible but they sure as hell provided a f*cking market didnt they!

Lucky the mainstream population doesn't read this horsesh*t because I'm embarrassed by the "can of worms/its so complex" attitude.

Every last one of you who has dealt with these communities knows the absolute catastrophe alcohol has been for these people.

Hell who gives a sh*t, in a year I'll have my jet job eh?

[Capt Wally]

Opportunist abound everywhere in every field. Aviation is just another form of transport into places as being discussed here. The grog problem at indigenous communities stems from two fundamental things. The white man who came & changed the aboriginals way of life many years ago (whether they wanted it or not) & therefore introducing the ways of at the time modern civilization and the fact that isolation & the ability to not be able to similate into the white mans way of life has given these people little reason to do anything else and has left us (white fellas) with an unsolvable problem of which aviation is just part of it. Fix the core problem (if at all possible) & then discussions like this wouldn't exist.

Am sure the use of planes has been used many times for the transportation of booze into areas where it's not allowed but does prosecution eradicate that problem? I doubt it but 'Fred G' is right, we are responsible for what we created in the first place to some degree.

Personal opinions only as always


CW

[the wizard of auz]

So Mr Gassit, are you suggesting that the Pilots should be making decisions with the welfare of these people in mind?. Get real. they are paid to fly the aircraft that the Aboriginal people CHARTER.... not try and change the existing culture and mindset of these people.
It IS a complex problem, and certainly nothing pilots or charter companies wish to IMPOSE on them, will change anything other than the mode of transport............ so your last statement,
Hell who gives a sh*t, in a year I'll have my jet job eh?
Is exactly what the pilots should be thinking.

Every last one of you who has dealt with these communities knows the absolute catastrophe alcohol has been for these people.

And who are we to tell them they cannot drink???, whilst we provide them with the income, and protection of the law to do so?. They are a self determining people, and are free to do as they wish, and it is legislated for them to do so.
Pilots fly aircraft, Not make government policy. People paying for a service should not be questioned or limited in the service provided, as long as it is lawful, regardless of the skin colour.
Governments make rules that govern the babysitting process.

we are responsible for what we created in the first place to some degree.
I certainly dont remember creating this problem. and feel absolutely no responsibility for it.

[Fred Gassit]

Thanks for the back up W, was up too late last night and probably used harsher language than I intended but I stand by the sentiment and we have to take some responsibility for what happens.

I dont envy young operators being put in that position as they have for so long (especially the ones bothered by this practice)

[Sunfish]

First of all, the information I posted comes from the Australian, it relates to a evidence presented at a Coroners Court and it is in the public domain.

To those who posted regarding the holding of bank cards and PIN numbers by charter companies, thank you for explaining the logic and necessity of this practice. You might try and tell the Australian or the Coroner about this as well, because "The Australian" article implies, in my opinion, that it was done for an immoral purpose.

Contrary to suggestions here, I am no stranger to the problems of Aboriginal communities and have spent considerable time around the top end over the years and I've seen (but thank God haven't lived in) quite a few from Doomadgee to Fitzroy Crossing. I also thought that the warning "watch out for the empty flagons" on the Tanami track was a joke, until I saw otherwise.

I know alcohol and Aborigines is regarded as a "complex problem" by some, but I understand that "dry" communities are generally happier, and the legislation regarding the bringing of alcohol into them is pretty tough. If Oomby isn't dry, then poor Oombi.

What pisses me off are the "White Enablers" of a lot of these problems, like the pub in Katherine selling wine casks straight off the pallet.

...And if any of you top end pilots fall into that category, shame on you.

[grrowler]

Should pilot's feel guilty then for flying in the garbage food for the community stores, seeing as obesity and diabetes is such a massive problem?

Should pilot's feel guilty for flying passengers to certain Asian destinations because they may be exploiting people in the illegal sex trades?

etc, etc...

As wiz wrote, I get paid to fly an aeroplane within the law. I have flown grog into "wet" communities. I have refused to fly, and involved police when necessary, passengers trying to take grog into their "dry" communites. I have seen many keycards kept to pay for flights (only). I sleep really well at night.

[laut]

By the way ... How's Clear Prop going ? Margaret still chasing for child support ?

[tinpis]

I've seen (but thank God haven't lived in) quite a few from Doomadgee to Fitzroy Crossing.

Just stepped into the middle of a blue outside the Fannie Bay shops
Nullanullas the works
An old drunken bat screeched at me "PONE DA PUKIM POLISE!"
I said do I look like pukim pone box?

Ya just gotta love 'em

2008...RUDDS Closing The Gat....er....Gap :hmm:

[PLovett]

The "problem" of companies holding debit cards and pin numbers is well known to the banking industry. A few years ago I was working for a company that organised a charter for a mob of about 30 quite high ranking people from the banking and finance industry from Alice Springs to Aryeonga so they could see the practice in action.

Very thoughtful mob on their return as the vast majority had never been to Central Australia before let alone an Aboriginal community. I think some thought a remote area was south western suburbs of Sydney.:ok:

I worked for a company in 2000 that kept debit cards and pin numbers for unpaid charters. Every morning we would swipe the card until the debt was paid and then return it when next we saw the passenger. I was told of one company whose owner had a card reader at his house and would swipe them when he woke so as to beat any person who may have had another card. The practice was common. We only used it to pay for charter flights though.

[tinpis]

Strike one... (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/15/2275100.htm)

[Horatio Leafblower]

Sunfish ol sport

a long long time ago I worked in the bottle shop in a town... ah, shall we say "similar" to the one under discussion.

Yeah OK I worked at Vaggy's.... it was a good job :ok: and a good education :eek:

Oombi then was a dry community and the president of the community council made it very, very clear that any air charter company caught bringing booze into the community would be banned from Oombi forever.

That made life very difficult for Ord Air (as was), being the closest provider of transport to the closest source of booze. The pilots and staff of Ord were very dilligent in ensuring that no grog got on the planes.

The president, meanwhile, brought his boat into town, it was loaded up to the gunwhales, and he set sail back up the mighty Forrest River with his monopoly unmolested by the Yankee Capitalist Sky Pirates you so deplore :yuk:

I went up the Kimberley straight from Uni with stars in my eyes and my (bleeding) heart on my sleeve.

I returned with my eyes wiiiiide open, scars inflicted by those I tried to help, and a tale my Sydney acquaintences wouldn't believe.

Too many shades of grey in this world for judgements & moral outrage :=

[hoss]

well haven't times changed. back in my day you wouldn't be caught dead not flying a 206 pod load of VB in and a load of turtle meat or something else out and about 20% overweight with the CoG off the page.

good character building stuff that seems to be lost on the current crop, shame.

[rutan around]

Alcohol is allowed in Hooker Creek provided you have a permit. They have one of the better systems. Anybody can obtain a permit-black white or brindle so there can be no accusations of discrimination. If anyone commits an offence involving alcohol they lose their permit.It seems to work.Perhaps other communities should copy instead of having a different set of rules for every place you go.
It always amazes me how sidewalk "experts" know that a plane is overloaded. They must know the weight of the cargo the pilot the px's the fuel and the empty aircraft. For the benefit of P-pruners not familiar with the Wyndham area a return trip to Oombie is about 20 minutes.A C210 or C206 would need to carry less than 90 litres of fuel. It would probably run out of room before it reached gross weight.
I have been visiting these hell hole Aboriginal Concentration Camps for more than 10 years now. If I lived in those conditions and was as bored as they are I'd drink too. Governments should remember that repeatedly doing things the same way and expecting a different result is the first sign of madness.

[Sunfish]

Yes!........but my question is if it is ethiical?


I'm sure it is covered by the AIP.

[Van Gough]

in my opinion, that it was done for an immoral purpose

Its your opinion and your entitled to it.

like the pub in Katherine selling wine casks straight off the pallet.


Like any bottle shop.....

No-one is forcing people to buy anything. If Australian citizens choose to live in that way and I'm glad that they have the choice to live in that manner. Have you ever thought that they may enjoy their lifestyle?

[Chief Wiggam]

Again this topic has been done to death.

What has ethics got to do with flying a plane (or aircraft for the fanatical)? Seems to me the pilots did their job well under trying conditions. Their only responsibility is to get the pax and freight safely from A to B, everything else being legal of course.

As for the social problems – well we can thank our elected officials for doing the job we pay them to do. That is to keep the problem swept under the carpet with welfare payments and preferential treatment so we can sleep better at night.

The only solution starts with abolishing any welfare (by some transitional means) and integrating the aboriginal population by recognising them as just Australians of aboriginal descent. No different to you or me. Until this happens we’ll be reading articles like this in the paper for decades to come – that’s if there are any “indigenous brethren” left.

[Jamair]

They are a self determining people - I'm sure you MEANT to say "WE are a self determining people".....aren't we all the same nationality, with the same rights, obligations, privileges and responsibilities?

The pilot is no more responsible for misuse of alcohol in this location than the truckie is in Brisbane, Melbourne etc.

And FWIW, while I have no answers to the problems discussed here, I suspect they might start with a bit of self respect and self reliance....just a question of how to introduce those concepts into a 3rd and 4th generation Welfare society....?:(

[the wizard of auz]

Jamair, You are right of course, WE are a self determining people, Us Australians. Unfortunately, with things like NADOC, ATSIC, CDEP, Aboriginal Health services, The government building communities in the middle of nowhere without any form of sustainable economy for the inhabitants, special Aboriginal only courses in schools, Sorry Day, the reconciliation process, mining royalties on country supposed to be sacred, land rights......Etc, it is difficult to remember we are all supposed to be ONE people....Australians.
As a point of interest. Has anyone ever noticed that the people that claim how proud they are of their aboriginallity and culture, are usually more than 2/3 white, and yet are extremely racist and claim no part of their European heritage?. I can point to a whole town that meets that description...... actually, several.

[206greaser]

ATSIC = Aboriginals Talking Sh*t In Canberra. An Aboriginal told me that. Does the fact that i laughed make me a racist? :ugh: I guess i'm just another "white enabler!" :rolleyes:

Cheers

[OpsNormal]

Chief Wiggam and Jamair have absolutely nailed it.

Nice troll-up Sunfish, into your third page now you probably got more bites than you thought you would.:ok:

I cannot blame you for trying to hold (what you see as) the moral high ground on these issues as you know no differently, however I'll also have to be brutally honest with you that it is a similar non-comprehension of these issues in certain government departments (predominantly in capital cities) that has caused the current situation to date. Last years' "intervention" was a much needed exercise in many parts of the country. Dry Communities are fine as long as the gate is many hours drive from the community....

Sunfish I also cannot believe you would choose to whole-heartedly believe a newspaper story to be completely factual and not try and put some form of spin upon the story?:=

[Cap'n Arrr]

What??? Newspapers don't always tell 100% truth??? That's unbelievable!:E

[myshoutcaptain]

Dry means , dry on one side of the fence ... too often I've been in the back of a seatless troopy and seen a small mountain of cans then once through the fence .... nothing ... ah must be a dry one eh!. Walk out front - drink - walk back in.

Horatio Leafblower - I gave up trying to explain to family / friends in the city ... they just never get it. I remember a drive with a family member from Darwin to Broome ... by the time we hit Katherine their idea had changed from first hand experience ... I couldnt wait till we hit Halls crack and Fiddaroy.
:D

[BeerMan]

I once took some family members with me on a charter to Balgo Hill. That opened their eyes!!!

[Sunfish]

My gut feel is that from 1986 to 2001 the situation in many Aboriginal communities went from bad to worse. Doomadgee in 1986 had a general store that was usable by humans, drove through the place around 2001 and I wouldn't even consider stopping.

What also seems to have happened is that Kava and marijuana have made it into those places as well, in fact when I stayed at Cape Crawford, the pub and motel were the weirdest places I've ever seen, unfriendly, surly staff, strange people around who didn't "fit" even in the outback (like half a dozen Vietnamese) strange goings on at night, it took me years to realise that it was pretty obviously a drug distribution point or suchlike. Glad I only spent one night there.

As for the problem of youngsters driving 300kms to get a drink, I don't know what you can do about it except prohibit Abo's from being sold grog....but of course we are now too modern and enlightened to do that aren't we?

[404 Titan]

Maybe paying them their pension in food coupons isn’t out of the question. This way their kids would get properly fed and their women wouldn’t get bashed so often. Of course the bleeding hearts in the big cities would call this discrimination. I though would call it salvation.

[maxgrad]

That was a good read!

Do dry communities work?.......My opinion is no, It MAY reduce some beatings(I certainly hope!) but overall there are more rollovers to and from grog shops, the problem is removed outside of each dry community, get the grog, drink it on the way home, finish it off outside the dry area and return home to do...........


Intervention...pointless, Talking with community nurses over most of NT, the interveners have been doing exactly what the nurses have been doing, general check ups, very little more.

Flying grog into communities, if it is dry and you are caught the a/c will be grounded/confiscated(spelling?). if it is a wet community, the flight if chartered and flown legally is a flight done. The pilot should not be held accountable.

Have a read of "Grog Wars", written by an aboriginal about the booze problem and pubs in Tennant F Creek. One paragraph spells it out fairly clearly to me.
It goes along the line....White man brought grog to the black fella, it was not in our culture and we did not understand or know how to handle it. Our race is dying because of it! then in the same paragraph ...we have a right to drink like any Australian, so to be told that we aint allowed to drink is wrong,(this in responce to meetings by community and hotel owners suggesting that pubs be for white fellas only).

Flew into a community around 250nm SW of Alice many years ago with a tradesman, whilst there met some fantastic people, happy proud and just get on with life sort. The elders of that community and those around had decided to tell all the grog shops in the area that no grog was to be sold to black fellas. As far as I was concerned it had worked fairly well. Strong leadership from within the community is the way to start, finding it consistently may be somewhat difficult.

All the above is my opinion and information is from memory only.

And no I can't spell!


404,
Agree with food vouchers but as in Katherine the management of these and to which stores are approved is an issue. I personally think the idea is great

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

When I was in the Channel Islands and running a supermarket there was a system of parish relief food vouchers (there was no welfare system there) for some of the sad old local "tramps", they had to go to the parish to justify getting the vouchers every fortnight, it wasn't automatically given out ... often it meant was that they turned to stealing the booze instead. Easy to catch, they didn't run real fast, they then got sent for a stint in jail where at least they got a bed and some food before getting out, back to the meths in the cardboard box in the multi storey car park and the whole cycle began again..sound familiar?

So food vouchers are only part of the answer, certainly better than just dishing out "Welfare"...that would be like going full circle to the days before the "sit down money" and admitting that might not have been such a good idea after all...?

[Sunfish]

Anyone know if the "drunk bus" that patrolled for drunk Aborigines around Katherine and took them home is still operating?

[maxgrad]

yep, called community patrol now

[rmcdonal]

They never gave me a lift home :suspect:
But they where kind enough to pick up the guys stealing fuel from my car.

[approaching.minimums]

How's Clear Prop going ? Margaret still chasing for child support ?

eh dat you Rodney. Bin long time you pukn white %^#$. where my money pukn pilot man. last time u bin runnin to plane like girl. get bak ere now!

[zac21]

'Fraid your right mate,,,,,,,,

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

How's Clear Prop going ?

Happy and healthy. Had her on a flight about 6 months ago (and a fair few before that). Very interesting that in some societies it would be all hush hush and shame but they're all pretty open about "dat girl's Ord Air Philut dad", it is refreshing in a way.

To join in on the great debate: I never felt guilt but I certainly felt compassion. Maybe I should make up for some bad karma and fly bibles into North Korea... or would that be just as evil???:=

Hey Capn, Get in dat green Ord Air and bring 'em low

~FRQ CB

[Mickster]

Maxgrad
You're absolutely right about the leadership in the community. When I was flying around the NT out of DN, there was a lovely little community just to the left of the Darwin-Port Keats track, I think it was called Pularumpa (or something like that). I seem to remember it was a "wet" community, but what a great little spot. I used to be met at the strip by several locals to see if I needed a hand with freight etc. The town was lovely with the locals so proud of the veges they were growing etc. Quite a stark contrast to Port Keats, where I went to deliver an occupied coffin only to spend 2 hours trying to find someone to accept the "frieght". In the end the local coppers took the cask. No family, friends or other! :(

As for the practice of keeping cards etc...it was standard practice for the owner to come in at 6am and start swiping cards. He had around 3 or 4 of those business card booklets, I guess somewhere between 100-200 cards. It was common practice for the "clients" to tell the bank they lost their card, get it reissued and then spend it on grog and therefore not able to buy flights or food for their family.

Interestingly, I took some govt reps up to BTI for a meeting with the elders around 2001 of which I sat in on (it was an open-air meeting). The gist of the meeting was that the community wanted MORE funding to combat the highest rates of teenage suicide, domestic violence and drug addiction per head of population in the country. That BTI was already the highest funded community per head of population (by a long shot) for all these problems went completely over the heads of the elders and their lawyers.

Try asking any community storeholder to explain "stock shrinkage" to you. The reasons are tragic and unfair for all parties.

And finally, what a fantastic little place Nardidi is. A wet community just over the river from Wadeye (a "dry one). Often when I landed there the prop hadn't even stopped and the back door was opened to unload the precious cargo of 34 slabs of green can and a couplda baaarunga reedge for da lehdies (in the nose locker).

These are all experiences. Some you like, some you don't like, but they all come together to give you character.

Enough rambling...bed is calling.

[tinpis]

In case you missed Four Corners last night watch it here (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20080616/kimberly/default.htm)
Should be mandatory viewing


And a comment from Capt Grumpys http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/moon2.giffavourite journalist (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/save_the_children_remove_them/)

[maxgrad]

The program on Tiwi College was interesting also. The kids had a chance to speak.

[multime]

Dear fellow Brethreron

Maxine Reid (formally) Ord Air must be laughing her *ss off at this.
Wyndham !!!! Wyndham. And will never change.
This has become a debate over non ??? DRY communitys and a social conciousness about importing - thats what we are doing, - grog, gunga, etc into socially disrupted communitys.
Take a hard look at Oenpelli, or the Cape.
So what.
If pilots are so intersested in hour building, and don,t see the destruction.
Then so be it. Some have morality. Others fly drunks.
The key card debate is an issue.
If you had a gambling problem, the best thing to do is hand over that responsibility to someone else.? If you have a drug or alcohol problem.?
Why wouldn,t you relent, and hand over controll to get home and sober up.?

Just my two cents worth.
Don,t know much.

Regards

Multi:ok:

[Sunfish]

Irex, you see the destruction, yet you still fly grog, just for hour building?

[RENURPP]

Sunfish,

I'm not sure of your profession. LAME?
Assuming you are, have you ever carried out work on an aircraft or aircraft component that has flown grog into a community?
Would you work on one of these aircraft?

I wouldn't be suppriosed if there was some ability for the locals to claim discrimenation if a company refused to supply an aircraft or maintain an aircraft that was legally flown into one of these communities all based on personal feelings. You are assuming every local in the community is an alcoholic. The local council makes the rules not the pilots. The local Police enforce the rules. I have spoent the last 15+ years in the territory and mexicans with big ideas should be required to spoend some time up here, living with them before they open their mouths.

How would you feel if you turned up at a bottle shop with an aboriginal friend and they wouldn't serve him because of his colour, which is what you are suggesting the Pilots should do.

Its a political problem that the Pilots are not responsible for.

[tinpis]

As it is......do you know Sunfish that if yer black white or bridle here in the NT it is a requirement to present ID and supply your name and address if you purchase more than $100 worth of grog?
How would you feel about an invasion of privacy like that in your City?
Simply because a very small part of the community is f@$%king up?
(Possibly as few as 400 easily identified people here in Darwhine.Taken in to protective custody 26000 times last 12 months)

[tinpis]

Dunno what the point of me last post was except to say I dont think anything good is going to happen real soon (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23881771-5006790,00.html):hmm:

[Van Gough]

you see the destruction, yet you still fly grog, just for hour building?


Yep and I'd do it again if the pay was better:ok:. What the pax do in their own time is none of my business.

[multime]

Irex - said 23 cartons will fit in C206??

I used to take 65.
My clients were alot thirstier obviously.:E
Regards
M:ok:

[ernie blackhander]

Agree, i hate everyone equally (and i own a coloured tv) and i have 13 shopping trolleys in my street. At least they are getting smart enough to place them back together so they can get their dollar back, after using it for an improvised open fire grill first though

[Whitney]

There's drinking, and there's drinking to excess.

Unfortunately, drinking to excess near the communities causes a lot of the problems within the communities.

With all due respect, I don't think anything great can be achieved with emotive posts on threads like this.

[206greaser]

Fer fu(*s sake are we still talkin bout this?! Look here Sunfish why don't you tell everyone your extensive experience up Norf! Along wif your ideas on how to fix this problem! I mean c'mon at first you called for the pilots to be locked up for flying charters that carried booze, right? Is that your answer to fix the problem? Lock up the pilots? If so, great we can all disregard your thoughts! If not WTF???

P.S. i'm a slight bit drunk. So take with more than a grain of salt.

Cheers big ears!

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

As the Oombie Chairman once said to one of my colleagues (name of pilot changed):

"You see Bobby, I don't think alcohol's the problem, I thinks it's the solution"

~FRQ CB

[desmotronic]

The aboriginal welfare system employs a lot of racist rednecks including pilots. :} Been there done that.

[Stationair8]

So Sunfish what about the guy in the bottle shop? Sorry mate you are black fella so I can't serve you because of my moral stance and yes whiteman in a nice suit I will serve you, but bogan in tracky daks no I won't serve you because you might go home and give the missus a hiding, or crash the car into a power pole, break into somebodies house etc. How long would I last in my job at the bottleshop?

Likewise when I fly somebody, I just do my job or what the boss or client request's and long as it is legal it's okay.

The photo that was posted is situation normal , lost count of how many times I rocked up at Cooinda with charter clients, to find anything up to six passed out in front of the hotel entrance.

[Sunfish]

Seen them staggering out of the back bar at Halls creek, husband and wife, both pissed out of their minds.

They shouldn't be allowed to drink, or perhaps it would be better if they got paid in food stamps so that they had no money for drink.

P.S. I detect a certain element of guilt in the angry tone of one or two postings here.

[Capt Wally]

I saw (in fact the whole plane load of pax I had did) a very drunk young indigenous female once many years ago out the back of the Halls Creek pub being 'attended' to up against the old fence by a trucky who had his rig parked just outside, engine still running. I wondered then was the booze that is freely available to them & anyone for that matter (was back then anyway) the reason she was there? I believe so. The few times I was passing thru those area's on a around Oz charter I got 'asked' if I could get some grog flown in for them, pilots are just pawns in a sad & sorry society:bored:


CW

[maxgrad]

A moral high ground is all well and good, until we step into the real world see the number of different influences effecting each and every situation.

From experience I can only guess that it can and does work if the elders of each and every community are strong enough to make a stance, sorry off into dream world again.

The problem is endemic and will not be changed by a simple WHITE man solution.

The pilots are not to blame, the law, public attitude, group hug theory people, government, and dare I say it the black fella himself. These are just a few, but you get the idea.

So with any due respect that may be forthcoming Sunfish, please;

1. Stop fishing, you have caught the bag limit and more(me included)
2. Pull your head in and realise the big picture.
3. Invest in a pub in NT, run it then take a moral high ground and see what happens.

Maxgrad

[the wizard of auz]

Seen them staggering out of the back bar at Halls creek, husband and wife, both pissed out of their minds.

Funny that. I seen the same thing in Melbourne.......... but they were white. You reckon they should get food stamps?.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And....Which Political party was 'alleged' to have flown in 'all dem plagons'
during that particular election campaign - in those - not - so - many long years ago??

Did the alleged 'political party' get pilloried??

So, Why pick on the pilots ...the airborne taxi drivers??.........

:}:}

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

I've visited a truckload of dry and wet communities all over OZ south north east and west and lived in the Kimberlies for a fair while in the past. I've seen a range of the problems caused by alcohol, dope, strange whitefellas and blackfellas that gave up long ago.

Now it's peoples business what they choose to do and when an employer asks them to do something then it is hard to take high ground when your job's on the line. If a company chooses to make money off a peoples addiction that's legal then so what. If the product that you supply causes sexual exploitation, domestic violence, suicide, child abuse and a range of other evil crimes then hey, it's not the people who've supplied it's fault, it's those stupid people who're doing all that drinking. Hell they'd just get it elsewhere, sure it would be harder and take more time, sure sometimes they wouldn't be able to do it. It's not my fault, I didn't cause it, they'd drink anyway, they are useless and spend all their money on grog, I know how it really is coz I spent 12 months hanging out at the Kimberley Klub and ferrying those smelly natives. Now I'm in a shiny jet but I'm still an expert.

Yeh no drama from those that think all that's fine, make sure you perpetuate the problem and exploit my taxpayer dollars with your 206 charters. Don't be part of the solution. You can justify it and paint it up however you like, but the bottom line is you're making money off other peoples misery. If you still feel good about that then good luck to you, and all of us for that matter.

Now I'm not you or in your job, but I have been around so don't start with your mexican crap. I haven't been in the position where I've had to make those sorts of choices and I don't know which way I'd go. I do know I wouldn't keep making excuses and I'd tell it how it is.

Standing by for all those thoughtful retorts.:ok:

[tinpis]

Macklin has a plan (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/22/2281897.htm) http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/idea.gif
The little children can sleep safe now
http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/popcorn.gif

[Freddy Fudpucker]

The keeping of key cards, as well as the supply of booze, by charting companies was endemic when I worked in the KIMBERLY (there is only 1 kimberly W.O.G).
The alcohol problem is not race specific, it is location specific.... if your home was in these remote places and you grew up in a cycle of abuse then it is all to easy to maintain that.Blame the government for suppling the means of addiction
The pilots/companies that fly the grog out are not to blame, as the locals would find another way around the supply chain if it wasn't flown in.

I worked in the back bar at Halls creek. On a Friday night we would sell 2 PALLETS of moselle casks, at $22 a throw ( these same casks are were about $6 in Syd/melb etc). Takings on an average friday night would be around the $10-12k. The town had a population of approx 1000 people.

[flyon dawall]

Multime, 65 cartons in a c206, gee's bloke I'm impressed; can't remember exact weight of a 206 but something smells like porky poo, maybe you can tell the QF interview panel that and how much of a company man you are...

[tinpis]

The NT intervention of course keeps the focus away from Dear Leaders State hell holes.

[Wizofoz]

They shouldn't be allowed to drink,

And who exactley are "They" Sunfish? What definition will you impose to differentiate between Australian citizens who have the right to consume alchohol and those that don't? Skin Colour? Heritage? Did someone say Apartheid??

[desmotronic]

Responsible service of alchohol applies to everyone Wiz.

[Sunfish]

Jeez Irex, don't hold back now....

Just because it's legal don't make it right....

[flyon dawall]

We've got a bit side tracked here lads....erect ur A/H and think straight; I'm with irex on this one...unless you've been there and seen it, you don't have the right nor a solid basis to argue a case, . One thing i will say - Irex you seem a little hot under the collar/sensitive...I hope you didn't f@#k M.Campbell or cyclone tracy....