Conventional navigation backing up the FMS

[Airporn]

According to my knowledge, we need to have conventional navigation as a backup when flying conventional procedures with FMS.

I know almost everyone does this for approaches and SID's, but shouldn't we be doing it on STAR's as well?

What are the procedures in your company and does anyone know any legal reference to this as well?

[OPEN DES]

My company recommends to leave everything autotuned, arguing that the most suitable nav-aids would be auto-tuned. (A320)
As we're all aware this is rarely the case (unless the navaid is part of the actual route). So I actually do take the effort to manually tune appropriate navaids as well as to identify them.
My understanding of PANS-OPS (the law) is that we need to have raw-data displayed at all times unless we're operating (B)(P)RNAV procedures. The FMS and ND on conventional routes (SID's, STAR's) are just tools to our disposal but we are meant to cross-check.
My take is also that by law we are required to tune and identify a station which defines a holding fix on the arrival.
On the line I see this all rarely done, and I am fully aware that the FMS can be relied upon. But the letter of the law (doc 8168) says different.
Interested in opinions.............

[Visual Calls]

The A320 as often as not will not autotune suitable navaids. Backing up the RNAV with manual tuning is called airmanship. You never know when you might need them.

[galaxy flyer]

Can anyone point out reference in Doc 8168?

GF

[plain-plane]

the people I work for require raw data back up below MSA... 800's

[Tee Emm]

Read this for a horror story about the reliability of FMS and serviceability of a VOR and an A320 that miised a hill by less than 50 feet.

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/additional_reports/airbus_a320_231__g_meda.cfm

[FireFoxDown]

Thanks Tee Emm - a very interesting read!

[hetfield]

Read this for a horror story about the reliability of FMS and serviceability of a VOR and an A320 that miised a hill by less than 50 feet.Like all computers, put s*** in and you will get s*** out.

BTW, most probably this incident would have happened to airplanes with conventionel nav as well. Has nothing to do with backing up the FMS.

[Wireflyer]

My understanding of PANS-OPS (the law) is that we need to have raw-data displayed at all times unless we're operating (B)(P)RNAV procedures. The FMS and ND on conventional routes (SID's, STAR's) are just tools to our disposal but we are meant to cross-check.
My take is also that by law we are required to tune and identify a station which defines a holding fix on the arrival.
On the line I see this all rarely done, and I am fully aware that the FMS can be relied upon. But the letter of the law (doc 8168) says different.
Interested in opinions.............

Well OPEN DES, I think you are perfectly right in case your ACFT has GPS PRIMARY LOST or is not equipped with it.
In these cases I select even enroute as many NAV aids as possible to make sure I'm not flying around with a map shift.

With GPS primary active, I leave the RAD NAV page blank during the cruise flight and descent. For T/O and approach I select the most appropriate NAV aid in case I'm restricted with terrain and/or traffic (e.g. FRA/CDG etc)

Example: T/O in ZRH in IMC: With the high terrain surrounding the field I even use the STBY tuning function for my EOSID in case everything goes to hell incl. communication.

On the other hand: In good VMC weather at a field without any high terrain or high traffic my RAD NAV page stays blank as well during the approach.

So in my opinion you it's ok when you adapt to the present situation - from backing everything up as good as possible to leave everything managed and autotuned.

How is it called at TOU..."use proper level of automation"...or something! :ok:

W.

[LLLK]

PANS-OPS Vol I Part I Section 2 Chapter 1 Para 1.4:

1.4 USE OF FLIGHT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (FMS)/
AREA NAVIGATION (RNAV) EQUIPMENT
1.4.1 Where FMS/RNAV equipment is available, it may be used to fly conventional procedures provided:
a) the procedure is monitored using the basic display normally associated with that procedure; and
b) the tolerances for flight using raw data on the basic display are complied with.
1.4.2 Lead radials
Lead radials are for use by non-RNAV-equipped aircraft and are not intended to restrict the use of turn anticipation by
the FMS.

[OzExpat]

My understanding of PANS-OPS (the law)
Begging to differ, just slightly, PANS OPS itself is not L.A.W. Law. It is nothing more than a "Document" issued by ICAO. The way that it, or even TERPs, is made into law is by local legislation. Every regulator is entitled to make changes to it that make it applicable to their own environment. It is a HUGE mistake to think that PANS OPS is law because it is not.

Many States adopt it entirely and without changes. Other States, that think a bit about how it impacts on their environment, make changes to suit their own operational situation. You find this out through each State's AIP or the Jeppesen pages (or other providers too, of course).

There is a legislative background to it but PANS OPS itself cannot be used as a legal basis by itself.