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Wet Power
3rd Jul 2001, 13:24
Not been much news on this topic recently.

Bearing in mind they are supposed to be getting 25 UK-based 757s over the next two years where are they getting the crews from?

Have they failed to attract enough UK 757 rated pilots because of the derisory package that they can now go to the DoT and get the OK to employ Eastern Europeans or whoever to fly their planes?

Are there really that many retirees from BA that can cover the required numbers for the forseeable future?

Anybody know anything?

Bigpants
3rd Jul 2001, 22:51
Go to the DoT and plead no pilots surely not! This reminds me of Excalibur a long gone UK charter outfit that employed a couple of Bulgarian Captains for a Summer Season. The results were to say the least interesting for those of us that flew with them.
Reagards Bigpants

ocelot
4th Jul 2001, 19:43
Hope that they don't get the pilots they want.I worked for them for 3 years,no food,tea ,coffee,dreadful maintenance, ups,tnt,fedex yes...drop it hide it lose it, I'd rather sign on.

Myk Hunt
4th Jul 2001, 19:48
Icelandair has furloughed 6 757 qualified pilots maby there?

sapco2
5th Jul 2001, 18:16
Things might be looking up for DHL if the rumour is true that Chris Hall (Airtours) has been appointed chief pilot.

Mindthegap
5th Jul 2001, 18:58
If they are getting 757 it couldn“t be so bad, maintainance wise that is. They are ex-BA so they have propably gotten good maintainance. And does anyone know what they are offering.

Pengineer
5th Jul 2001, 19:50
Au contraire, Regardez-le-gap mon ami!
In actual fact the delivery of the first aircraft which had been modified by Boeing was almost six months late because of the poor state of repair of the ex-BA aircraft!
Its a common misconception that because BA is a big 'quality' airline the maintenance is also top quality.
Ask any current or former BA engineer.

FLARE DAMIT
5th Jul 2001, 20:54
According to the latest (Balpa) Airwaves, they only managed to secure about 12 rated guys so interviews are continuing for the non type rated.

Wet Power
5th Jul 2001, 23:41
Does anybody know anybody that is going to them?

My feeling is that they are looking for an excuse to recruit abroad despite the large number of low experience guys and gals in the UK trying to get their first job as well as the more experienced people who have the hours but not the type rating.

WP

VICCYTEN
6th Jul 2001, 12:31
I turned them down recently. I,m type rated, experienced but could not accept the terms and conditions. Eg, Can only take leave in either 7 or 14 day chunks. No days off will be rostered at either end of the leave, but will be rostered into the leave. This means that you take 7 days 'leave;, yet your roster shows 4 days leave/3 days off but you lose 7 days off your leave entitlement. That is taking the pi**.

Either you offer a sensible package or you recruit outside the UK. It all depends on what sort of reputation you want DHL to have, good quality, caring and profitable or cowboy.

sad spaniel
6th Jul 2001, 14:09
I hope BALPA keep a close eye on this one and fight vigorously any attempt to employ foreign (none EU) pilots simply because they can't 'tempt' British pilots with what appears to be a less than atractive package!

fireflybob
6th Jul 2001, 16:04
sad spaniel, here, here!

Do the IPA also know what's going on here?

------------------

Day_Dreamer
6th Jul 2001, 17:13
Is the overall package bad ?.
When looking into a new position why take just the salary as the bottom line there are more things to be taken into consideration, you should look at all the benefits, pension, loss of licence etc.

With the people mentioned to be running the company (Info from Pprune) I think that they are the ones who will crew the aircraft when they arrive from within the EEC pilots.
This company has the potential to be a major force in European aviation, and at least it will hold a G- registration and not a flag of lowest cost.

I support our UK pilot force, from the just qualified through to the 30 year plus veterans, everyone should have the chance to work in his / her own country.
But I am sick of listening to the bleating of a few sheep who see all new start up operations as a way of bringing in lower cost pilots from other countries.

From the original advert in Flight the offer was open to ALL European pilots type rated or not, so it appears aplications would be treated the same even if you were not rated on the B.757 / B.767.

Good luck to the 12 in their new jobs, and for those who are not rated on type, remember there are many aircraft to be crewed, and that means you have an egual chance of getting a position, unless you have not applied and believe the Rumours here.

sapco2
6th Jul 2001, 20:11
Yes the salary is bad and the terms and conditions are merely adequate. DHL have lost a lot of credibility with the applicants who applied, probably because we were led to believe the salary would be competitive. During my interview it was made crystal clear the numbers would be made up with foreign pilots. The new chief pilot is a good man and I know of many who would be very happy to work with him. I am sad the salary is so poor because I would dearly like to work there!

shlittlenellie
6th Jul 2001, 20:37
Who is the new chief pilot?

Mindthegap
6th Jul 2001, 20:47
I haven“t seen anything about their salaries and roostering could someone please give info.
Thanks

Day_Dreamer
6th Jul 2001, 21:16
Why is the salary considered poor at 60K for a B.757 rated Captain this compares favourably with the BALPA / IPA published pay scales for base level.
(Or do people expect to enter above their collegues on the pay scale. Join a new company as a new hire captain or first officer pay is usually basic pay unless you are a qualified / current training pilot.)

Many companies only recruit to the right seat, here we have a company who offer both positions, and rapid advancement to the right people.

From what I understand flying this type of operation usually leads to about 450 block hours per year against 750 in the charter market, you fly 40% less for the same money, I know what I would rather be doing.

Also is this new operation not seperate from the DHL / EAT based in Brussels, and subsequently nobody can as yet comment on its operation as its not started yet !! or am i missing something ?.

sapco2
6th Jul 2001, 21:24
You are a day dreamer aren't you!

Pengineer
6th Jul 2001, 22:15
Apparently the engineers get £28 per hour with approx 50 hrs a week plus accomodation.

sapco2
6th Jul 2001, 22:28
Pengineer,
That's good to hear, the engineers deserve a good rate but I think daydreamer is out of touch with reality - to suggest £60.K is a good salary for a transport jet aircraft captain is ridiculous. Even AIH (bottom of the scale) pay considerably more than that.

m&v
6th Jul 2001, 23:00
As he said earlier on Chris Hall is'rumoured'to be going as chief pilot!!
I heard that maybe some of AIH's guys may be going!!

Mindthegap
6th Jul 2001, 23:13
What is the starting salary for FO“s and how are day“s off scheduled?

tilii
7th Jul 2001, 00:49
As I understand it, the 'salary' quoted above is a gross understatement of the proposed DHL skippers' gross payment. Why don't we see what happens when this operation gets under way. Frankly, I don't believe I have ever seen a new start up outfit get such a 'bucketing by the uninformed' as I have read on the pages of this esteemed website. And if the rumour as to the intended Chief Pilot is true, this operation will certainly become a cracker to work for in due course. Give it a chance, gentlemen.

Day_Dreamer
7th Jul 2001, 01:54
Sapco2 please quote the Airtours BASIC Captains salary for 2000 and 2001.

Year 2000 Air 2000 57896 GBP
Year 2001 Air 2000 60100 GBP
Year 2000 Monarch 58170 GBP
Year 2001 Monarch 60206 GBP

These salaries are from the BALPA web site.

The DHL Basic compares favourably with the above.

tilii. I could not agree with you more on the comments which you have posted here.

Facts Gentlemen NOT Fiction please.

Chutney
7th Jul 2001, 04:10
I think that you will find that if they are looking for experienced captains then you won't find them on level 1 or 2 of companies salary scales! Figure it out... they want experienced captains so an experienced captain in one of those companies is on quite a bit more than the 60k figure being bandied about.

They may be able to find f/o material that is looking for an early command but they won't get many 'experienced' captains going for a wage drop. More than likely they will be reviewing the captains 'package' to attract more experience.

Also, if you are going to get your facts right then an Air 2000 captain with 5 years experience will be on a basic of £65,800 plus all the other extras including £2.30 per hour FDA/ABA and a company contribution of 15% to the pension, Private Health Insurance, Loss of Licence Insurance, Death in Service Benefits, Holiday Concessions. Besides the 60k DHL are offering what are the other pieces that make up the whole package?

[This message has been edited by Chutney (edited 07 July 2001).]

thegypsy
7th Jul 2001, 06:52
tilii. How does a 4 sector night freight outfit become a cracker of a job just because the Chief Pilot is a good guy? Whilst you may only do 450 hours a year there are long duty periods which cancel that one out.If it suits you then go for it but other peoples comments are useful if only to get the deal improved!!

alosaurus
7th Jul 2001, 11:38
We have an F/O from the 145 who has just been accepted,this will indirectly pull in another low hours UK bod into BACE.

tilii
7th Jul 2001, 21:07
thegypsy

The answer to your question is the same as would apply in any outfit where the Chief Pilot is a thoroughly switched on professional who is also a people person and a shaker and mover. As I knew him personally in the deep, dark, past, I feel able to confidently express my opinion that these are indeed the credentials, the characteristics, of the individual rumoured to be taking the CP job at DHL. And, for what it's worth, dear chap, a 4 sector night freight operation may not suit you but it certainly does many others (in any event, I understand it will not be a purely night freight operation in the long term). If that operation is also well-run, it may attract many more than you would imagine as it glows as a beacon of excellence among its lesser rivals (of which there are far too many in the UK). I wonder how many of us have actually realised that this operation, well handled, may in the future become the second biggest airline employer in the UK?

I have not applied to join DHL and I am very unlikely to, for I work for an employer who pleases me very much indeed. I will soon retire in any event. But were it otherwise, I would be in there to DHL like the proverbial rat up a drainpipe.

I simply cannot believe some of the mindless drivel that emanates from these pages at times, such as your own final remark about getting 'the deal improved'. This company has hardly even got up to run yet and already the likes of you would wish to see the deal improved? Good grief! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Now, how about less of the knocking, and instead giving our new starter chums our vigorous support rather than our cynical abuse? Or is that too much to expect, my friend?

[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]

VICCYTEN
7th Jul 2001, 23:53
Just to clarify maters a little, from someone who has researched DHL, been thru the interview, sim ride and turned them down.

The problem is not with the Flight Ops Dept. It is quite simply that if you wish to recruit experienced captains you need to pay experienced captains salary. This does not mean you have to alter the basic package at all. What is required is a bit of lateral thinking.

If Capt Moore has a word with the men in red braces and can convince them to keep the package as it is, but award 7 years seniority to all captains (sorry F/Os) who join DHL in the first 18 months, say to Dec 2002, then I guarantee you will solve your recruitment problems overnight without compromising the package for subsequent joiners.

I would certainly change my mind and you could have me in 3 months.

Just a thought.

tilii
8th Jul 2001, 23:40
VICCYTEN

My dear chap, it may not have occurred to you but, using a little of your suggested lateral thinking, it may be possible for you to imagine that DHL would not now wish you to 'change your mind'.

You see, there are those among us who, recognising that the DHL operation is a new start up, will actually be prepared to join it on precisely that basis and not demand from it recognition of your 7 years of seniority with a completely different employer (in your case, judging by your handle, with BA).

There are also among us some pretty bright lateral thinkers who can perceive some considerable advantage in being in on the ground floor of an operation that could conceivably buy bigger and better types and fly them across the many different ponds on this planet to their own personal and financial future advantage.

I seriously doubt that DHL would wish to see a change of heart in someone incapable of such progressive foresight, someone solely interested in their own short-term gain. And, were I an 'experienced' F/O, I would ask you to explain the reasoning behind your exclusion of them from your grubby demand for 7 years seniority status.

Just a thought, dear chap, just a thought. :eek: :eek: :eek:

FLEX42
9th Jul 2001, 02:43
tilii, my dear chap, you might be thinking laterally but you're not terribly bright if you think BA operate from Nause Brighton :p

Anyway, what is your vested interest in DHL, I'm smelling a rat here. All the guys are saying is give me parity if I'm to move from my present employer, what's wrong with that. I speak as a disinterested party who's happy with my present employer.

tilii
9th Jul 2001, 12:19
FLEX42

Oh dear, Flex, I suppose I must spell it out for you. No doubt Viccyten is an 'ex VC10 tanker driver operating from Brize Norton', but he is certainly not writing from a position of 7 years seniority as an RAF pilot is he? At least, he would not be asking DHL for RAF pay parity at the levels being mooted on this forum unless he flew for a very different Force than did I in my long ago past.

As most ex Brize types end up in their civilian counterpart squadron (BA), I think my assumption is well founded in any event. And I did say 'presumably', I think.

As to your question regarding 'vested interest' and 'rat smelling', if you smell a rat it is certainly the one hiding in a nearby fundamental orifice, dear chap. Again, I will spell it out for you. I am neither involved in the setting up of DHL's operation nor an aspiring employee of same. I am simply an interested onlooker with a view that new start operations should be encouraged without prejudice and that those who demand 'parity' in initial T & C on the basis of their 7 years seniority with their present employer are best to remain with that present employer who is, by definition not a new start up operation.

Like you, I am happy with my present employer. Would you please explain how you say you are "disinterested" when you choose to express your views as stated above. Surely you speak as an 'interested party', dear chap? :D :D :D

VICCYTEN
9th Jul 2001, 12:24
Tili,

Yes, they do still want me - at least, that is what I was told when I declined their offer.

Also, having been involved in the start up of an airline in UK in the mid 80s, the 7 year seniority was awarded to get a decent level of experience attracted, and to compensate for the various teething problems that one expects at a start up.

If the offer were to be extended to all pilots I would be delighted, but market forces dictate a requirement for experienced captains. Sorry if that does not apply to your case, but I do think you could disagree with someone without making a personal attack.

Just a thought!

Day_Dreamer
9th Jul 2001, 12:35
I really must support tilii in his most recent response.

The people who are now joining DHL's new UK operation, are the ones with a vision of the future, and appear not to be bound by the "I am worth more" syndrome.

A positive attitude to this new company, and a willingness to make it work, is what is needed, this is true of all new operations.

Have you been made redundant, tried to keep your home and loved ones on unemployment benefit ?. Many of us have and I would not recommend the heartache it causes to all concerned.
A new company has a budget for their financial year, and a set time to reach profitability.
Recruiting overpaid "Prima Donna's" who's main concern is their own financial wellbeing. and not necessarily the sucess of the new carrier, does not give a sound financial basis for a new company to build upon.
To those of you who have seen the package and rejected the offer, that was your choice.
As an outsider with no axe to grind for either camp I feel that your own self exclusion will have given those who have accepted the job offer a far better chance of staying off the dole queue for many years to come.

Predictions for the charter industry are not good over the next few years, are some people so short sighted that they fail to see a new operation starting which will probably be considered one of the safest long term bets in our industry.
A short term drop in salary by 60% of the difference (The Tax Man gets the rest) will always prove a better move than a 100% drop to the dole queue.

"Too near retirement to worry about changing job's"

thegypsy
9th Jul 2001, 13:29
Tilii Are you sure you are not a Day Dreamer??

DHL is not some poor new start up but a large highly profitable company. If they want experienced B757 Type Rated Pilots then they need to make the deal a lot more attractive than at present in order to attract the right people.
I see no chance of Charter Airlines all falling by the way because the vagaries of the British weather will see to that,
From where I am sitting this will never be a cracker of a job and I do not think anyone in DHL supposes it to be so either. Yes it is a job that is all.
You have my deepest sympathy if coming to the end of your career you can even remotely consider this to be a cracker of a job.
I hope your impending retirement is more fulfilling!!

reimers
9th Jul 2001, 14:11
I think this is not an entirely new "start-up" but rather an extension to the current DHL ops. By posing as a start-up they indeed try to locate pilots who will take lower benefits for the feeling of having been there from the start. DHL is a huge company and it will not hurt them giving what they will offer from the start. If people accept less now they will never get it later. Just look to the other big outfits around. Lufthansa's pilots have even been on strike to get bach what they gave 10 years ago, with record profit years in between for the airline.
Now, I'm not saying that if you should join a new little airline being started at your local airport to provide a service that has yet to be established and advertised and has to find its customers, that then you should not give this company a break by flying for less the first years, but this is not a bach country airport startup!

FLEX42
9th Jul 2001, 16:38
tilli, I am more than happy to explain how I am disinterested.

Read my lips...."Disinterested" means impartial, not influenced by one's own advantage. (Oxford dictionary). If I did not find the subject interesting, as you suggest, then I would be "Uninterested". Similar words, but very different meanings. Still, plenty of time to study English during your forthcoming retirement. Toodle pip, time for tiffin.

Wet Power
9th Jul 2001, 18:42
So going back to my original question - where ARE DHL getting their pilots from?

By my reckoning they will need approx 250-300 pilots over the next two years.

Please lets not go into a slanging match over the pluses and minuses of DHL and the salary they are offering - I personally don't feel it is enough for the type of lifestyle that you can expect but if certain people wish to work for them at this scale then that is their choice - though it wouldn't be mine.

WP

VICCYTEN
9th Jul 2001, 18:48
23 aircraft @ 3.5 crews/aircraft = 70 captains + 70 F/Os + management pilots.
Those were the figures I was given recently.

Low ratio of crews/aircraft as the aircraft will only fly at night, for now at least.

HomerSimpson
9th Jul 2001, 20:44
Does anyone have the contact details for them please?

Regards,
Homer :D

9th Jul 2001, 22:08
Know that its 1000 hrs TT required.

Other than that the basics and no requirement for type rating as prev mentioned
;) ;)

HalesAndPace
9th Jul 2001, 23:15
The contact details are hidden away on a previous topic somewhere, but with the search facility unavailable.....

Walton Churchill
01606 48438
Fax 01606 40269
[email protected]

A very nice lady called Lorna is dealing with enquiries.

Mindthegap
10th Jul 2001, 04:51
Also heard that TNT and/or Starair are getting a few 75“s. Any thoughts? :confused:

nitefiter
10th Jul 2001, 16:40
Just been on the phone to nice lady Lorna,
she told me that they still were`nt interveiw
ing non type rated pilots. Is this true or was it a fob off? Ive got over 2000hrs on jets not 757 .what are they looking for?

Wet Power
10th Jul 2001, 21:56
My point exactly, nitefiter

tilii
10th Jul 2001, 22:49
nitefiter

You ask "what are they looking for?" and the answer is quite clear: at the present moment they seek 757 type rated pilots. This is surely confirmed by what the "nice lady Lorna" has said, or was there something in your post I have missed?

Patience, dear chap, for the next they seek for interview may be those with "over 2000hrs on jets not 757", like your good self.

Wet Power

This is your thread and you started it with the question as to where DHL's pilots are coming from. Well, so far we are told that their Chief Pilot is likely to be coming from Airtours and it seems likely that those like Viccyten may come from BA. Others I know are coming from Brittania and Monarch.

What exactly IS your point, then? Do you know, or suspect, something we don't? Come on, lad, cough it up. :confused:

LimaNovember
11th Jul 2001, 09:48
It cannot come as a surprice that DHL, or any other operator for that matter, is looking to fill open positions with type rated pilots. At some point, when this is not possible anymore, they have to screen qualified non type rated pilots.

That some of you find whatever they offer not good enough, is ok. But I am sure many will find the content of their package fully acceptable. This is very individual. What I am looking for in a package is not necessarily what my friend is looking for.

So why get so geared up over DHL starting up in the UK and what they offer. If you do not like it, leave it. Easy.

nitefiter
11th Jul 2001, 11:38
tilii
there was nothing deep or meeningful in my post,I was just wondering if there was anyone out there (non rated) who had been
interviewed.Im in no hurry cos im in a good job now,but the location of DHL makes it interesting to me. :)

sapco2
11th Jul 2001, 12:15
I feel pretty sure none typed rated types will get a look in. Rumour has it, the recruitment budget is rapidly being usurped by B757 type rated guys dipping their toes to test the water. Many have been interviewed but only a handful have so far accepted the offer. Others have simply not turned up for interview. I understand failure to turn up for the simulator assesment has been their most iratating bug bear, particularly when the candidate has not even bothered to notify DHL.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: sapco2 ]

Wet Power
11th Jul 2001, 13:00
Tilli

The reason for this post is my doubts as to DHLs recruitments motives. I would desperately like someone to prove me wrong.

Four months after the advert in 'Flight' DHL have raised the sum total (it seems) of 12 type rated 757 pilots. These people seem to be, as expected, ex BA or the odd inividual from the charters. We are informed of no non type rated (but well qualified) pilots being interviewed. This may, or may not, be true. If it IS the case that non type rated are being interviewed then it is in small numbers.

DHL should have got the message by now that they will not get many more 757 drivers under the present deal. Therefore they must accept that they are going to have to type rate EC licensed people on to the 757. This doesn't seem to be anywhere near happening yet.

I would dearly love to see EC non type rated, but experienced, pilots start to be interviewed and selected as this would open up the bottom step of the ladder for the hundreds of qualified people who don't have the experience and are desperate for their first position. I know many people in this position and you only have to look at the 'Wannabees' section to prove the point.

I do not want to see non UK/EU pilots operating for DHL (or any other UK company) where that company has gone to the DoT pleading that they cannot find sufficiently qualified EU crews for the operation and therefore need to employ pilots from outside the EU. It will probably start another thread but the example of 67 US pilots flying for JMC this summer infuriates me when I know of several UK pilots, competent and capable, who cannot get their first job.

I would desperately like DHL to prove me wrong.

nitefiter
11th Jul 2001, 14:04
Sapco2,WetPower and LimaNovember,
Im with you on this one.
Also if youre not going to attend the interveiw or sim check at laest have the decency to give them a call,to be courteous and professional costs nothing and might just get the ball rolling for everyone else!

VICCYTEN
11th Jul 2001, 14:23
tili,

I do not, never have and never will work for BA.

Everyone else, I spoke with DHL yesterday. I,m type rated and experienced and they have offered to keep a position open for me for the duration of their recruitment. I,m nothing special, (sim ride was very average) so that must tell you how short they are of suitable candidates accepting offers. This can only go 2 ways. Either they improve the offer to the type rated guys or they start interviewing non type rated guys.

There will have to be a certain level of experience to satisfy CAA etc, but my guess is that if the non type rated guys are patient they will get a shot.

In response to wetpowers original question. Well if I answered that I might as well tell you who I am but if I said expat would that help.

Good luck.