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Olendirk
10th Jun 2008, 08:03
Guys,

any hints for those airports. Std runways, specials,wht to expect?

Thanks so much!


OD

411A
10th Jun 2008, 08:18
Well now, I haven't been to either airport for about five years or so, however, the ATC services at AMS I have found are second to none in Europe.
Yes, the ATC instructions can come quite rapidly, but are usually very precise, just like at FRA.

And, far better than LHR, in my opinion.

LHR just seems (in any number of ways) to slide downhill, ever so slowly.
Quite sad really, as they used to be quite good.

BOAC
10th Jun 2008, 08:44
AMS:

Arrival ATIS gives landing runway. Noise dictates useage unless windspeed is a factor as per the charts.

Departure info on the operational broadcast freq (look on your plates).

CDG:

Have not been for 4 years, but normally arrivals from north used to get northerly runways and vice versa. Likewise departures.

FRA:

ATIS gives landing direction. Expect actual runway allocation late downwind so be ready! Normally 18 for departure for 'Mediums' unless other requested or wind.

one post only!
10th Jun 2008, 08:59
Both have D-Atis thank god so you can get it early!

CDG,

Expect to drag it in from a long way out! You will be cleared to land with another aircraft on short finals or still on the rwy. Look closely at the taxi plates before you go there, worst bit is on the ground!

AMS,

Fairly low G/A alt. Positive speed control all the way to 4D. Expect a few short cuts! Can be a long taxi in, again look at the plates before you go.

Both (particuarly AMS) nice places to fly too with good ATC. Turn-arounds in CDG however........

eckhard
10th Jun 2008, 13:30
There are quite a lot of SIDs and STARs so it would be advisable to know your airways routing beforehand. That way you can study the appropriate arrival or departure plate ahead of time.

AMS

If you're using the executive handling terminal, expect to be vectored for an approach to the 'main landing runway' broadcast on the ATIS, followed by a visual break-off to land on 04 or 22. When I was there in April, we flew an ILS to 36R and then turned right on short final to land on 04. Some years ago I flew an ILS to 27 and landed on 22.

CDG

Be prepared for a lot of French on the radio; ATC talk to the locals in French, so Situational Awareness can be an issue.

Bottom line for both airports - study charts before you go and stay alert and flexible

Enjoy!

ratarsedagain
10th Jun 2008, 13:58
411A says:
And, far better than LHR, in my opinion.

LHR just seems (in any number of ways) to slide downhill, ever so slowly.
Quite sad really, as they used to be quite good.

I disagree - a total insult to the superb ATC provided by all the controllers on the various frequencies at LHR.

Micky
10th Jun 2008, 14:16
Hello
AMS
As said above ATC is great and exact. You will be speed controlled all the way, no need for guess work.
The operational report(131.35) will give you information for Landing runway acoording to your IAP and time of day, as well as departing runways.Can be rec. from further out than the ATIS.
If weather and traffic permits you may even be cleared for a visuall or short approach.
Very low Transition level can be FL045.
Taxi is great: your clearance will be something like: Taxi to stand B11. And thats it.:eek::ok: Standard taxi routes all the way.


CDG
Paris is big, there is a lot of traffic and a lot a french ATC. Normally you will get north runway from north and south from south, but if you are parked up at the north you can request and mostley get the north runways.
Expect early decent and speed reduction. And delay vectores if a AF behind you has to get in front...:ooh::*(ok lets not go down that road)
At first contact with tower you will be cleared to land.:ok:
Taxi at first seems confuessing but is acctually standard taxi routs. BUT Taxi Instructions from ATC will give Taxiway different names or numbers then on the charts or on the lamps.But if traffic permits and to save you a longer taxiroute you may be cleared and/or request the non std. direction. But keep a good look out can at first be a little confusing.

Hope that helps! enjoy (esp. AMS;))


Micky

OutOfRunWay
11th Jun 2008, 10:47
CDG - First time on the ground will be confusing, its a large airport with a fairly convoluted taxyway system. Keep your plates handy and look out a lot :ok:
If you go to france on a regular basis, it is worth learning enough ATC french so you can get a fair idea of what's going on around you. Its not actually that difficult, the vocabulary is fairly limited, and obviously the same phrases keep cropping up.

Cap Loko
11th Jun 2008, 13:52
CDG
-Note the approach transitions. STAR-Arrival-(radar vectors)-Approach.
-Have plates from all 4 runways stby. It may change the last minute.
-Sometimes late landing clearance.
-Be carefull not to cross other runway after vacating yours.
-Study taxiways thoroughly. Note the std. routings and that there are not many signs for the taxiway: position awareness.

cheers

Visual Calls
14th Jun 2008, 00:00
411A on LHR ATC, not so at all, you're way offside on this one. ratarsedagain is spot on.
As someone who operates into LHR, AMS and CDG on an almost weekly basis, I can tell you LHR ATC is several orders of magnitude better than AMS or CDG.

LHR - you arrive at one of the 4 stacks and will likely orbit at the least. Thereafter you get very accurate track mileages to calculate your CDA (although judging from the stats released by LHR, the only pilots capable of doing consistent CDA's are those of EI, BA, BD and VS - it's not that difficult!). Speed will be 220kts leaving the hold, 180kts on base and once established 160kts til 4 DME. It works a treat.

AMS - depending on the weather be prepared for runways, sometimes several in a short space of time. Expect reduced track miles and short approaches. ATC is a bit hit and miss and think they're a little bit slicker than they are.

CDG - pretty good, would be even better if they spoke English only. You are given your runway on initial contact with approach. If you receive no instructions to the contrary, you are expected to intercept the relevant LOC if on an intercept track of less than 70 degrees. If you don't, you will stray into parallel traffic.

411A
14th Jun 2008, 01:19
Sorry VC, Heathrow is third, at best.
It used to be quite good, but has slid downhill rapidly, in later years.
Them's the facts...like it or not.:yuk:

Carnage Matey!
14th Jun 2008, 02:23
Them's your facts, not the facts. Regular visitors will draw their own conclusions.

Colocolo
14th Jun 2008, 10:23
Visual Calls

CDG - pretty good, would be even better if they spoke English only. You are given your runway on initial contact with approach. If you receive no instructions to the contrary, you are expected to intercept the relevant LOC if on an intercept track of less than 70 degrees. If you don't, you will stray into parallel traffic


Is this local only knowledge, or is it written somewhere? Not questioning you, but would like to know what are the basis for this.

Presently flying in the Middle Kingdom, where ATC often forgets to clear me for an approach (except for aiports like ZBAA, ZGSZ, ZGGG, ZSPD, ZSSS)

After 25 years in this business, I cannot recall( perhaps age:hmm:) seeing or hearing this. Maybe one of you will be kind enough to educate me.

Cheers

COLOCOLO

rogerg
14th Jun 2008, 10:45
If you receive no instructions to the contrary, you are expected to intercept the relevant LOC if on an intercept track of less than 70 degrees. If you don't, you will stray into parallel traffic

This seems to be standard at most french airports, took me by surprise first few times.

(I did hear that it started because French pilots didnt like being told what to do by "mere" ATC. So ATC said "in that case, get on with it!")

Waspy
15th Jun 2008, 00:11
Read Jeppessen 10-x? (front pages) CDG. Written black and white.:)

Colocolo
15th Jun 2008, 03:22
Waspy:

Read Jeppessen 10-x? (front pages) CDG. Written black and white.

That would make it a "local" rule, and yes, I would read it if I was to fly into CDG. Thanks.

Cheers

Colocolo