Pros & Cons Of USA Training

[belleh]

Hi

I've been looking into the idea of doing training (I'm ab-initio) self funded in the USA; I'm a UK resident finishing up at university this year.

I was looking at courses like http://www.aribenaviator.com/jaapro.html and would like to know peoples opinions on such courses. What are the pros and cons, and what hidden or clear pitfalls should I be aware of? (I'm not talking about the state of the industry etc, I'm well aware of those issues and they're universal for all intents and purposes.)

I see that particular course can offer a J-1 visa so that you can build hours as in instructor, but I'd assume positions like this are by no means guaranteed. What's the liklihood on that front? I'm aware that, especially with rising fuel costs, there are going to be fuel surcharges, but then that's also fairly universal I'd imagine. Obviously I'd have to fund the flight there and back, but in the grand scale of things, a hop over the pond isn't really a biggy. Accommodation whilst there is a factor, but then these schools do have options for student rooms, or I'd assume it wouldn't be too hard to arrange alternate living with fellow students. Either way, I'd still have to live somewhere if I was in the UK. I guess an advantage is the weather over there is likely to lend itself to flying more, especially in the early stages?

I'm just throwing around the kind of thoughts that have been flying around my head, but the vast majority of you will have far more experience than I, and could perhaps offer some thoughts for consideration? I'm unlikely to be in a position to start training for another 2 years at least, by which time I'll be 24, but I'd like to get as many facts and opinions for this approach in my head as possible, as I think it's likely I'd be taking a self funded/partially self funded route such as this.

Do any other pilots or ex students of this school or others like it (say, OFT, although they don't offer the J-1 visa) have anything to offer or add? How much did you spend all up?

Well, I've stepped over the line of waffling and ranting, so I'll leave it there, and thank you in advance for your time and advice. Time to get back to reading other threads for more information! Cheers :ok:

[belleh]

I realise this has been covered in a few ways before, believe me I've spent close to 50 hours on pprune alone over the last few days reading as much as possible! But, if anyone could take a stab or two at answering a couple of my questions, I'd be really grateful! Cheers guys =)

[AlphaMale]

First of all I'd research as much as possible about AriBen before going there, I was hooked on the idea of doing there and going the ProCourse or going to EFT and doing their Multi APP but after researching I'm kinda put off EFT with their recent 'EFT owe me money/refund' threads.

The planes at AriBen are old but you'll be better off reading that on the AriBen threads.

Thread 1 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207886)

Thread 2 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73015)

Thread 3 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=285622)

... for starters.

[belleh]

Cheers for the heads up re: the threads mate. Although, it was more an overall 'USA style' way of doing things that I was asking about, with that school as an example, than specific school advice.

That said, I'm forming the following kind of plan in my head having done lots of reading here:

1) Finish my final year at uni with the best grade I can(!)
2) Get into a graduate scheme of some kind (yet to solidly decide what I'd like to do) in a non aviation area, and start building a career with which I can pay for my training.
3) As cash permits, take the modular approach and build my way towards a frozen ATPL over the course of a couple of years.
4) I'm now (at least mainly) debt free, and have my fATPL. Go get instructor rating.
5) By this time, I have a few years in chosen alternate career (this is good because it can always be there to fall back on). Go find instructor job, either part or full time.
6) Build hours as instructor. Experience students trying to kill me. Apply to airlines as my CV starts to beef up hours and experience wise.
7) Hopefully, at some point, get offered some kind of airline job, whether its a turboprop or jet offer, take it.
8) If turbo prop, get more hours, beef up CV further, apply for jet jobs. And so on...

All the while, I'll have my BSc Computer Science (Hons) and some kind of career to fall back on and support me through tough times. Hopefully low debt due to modular approach.

Where it gets slightly interesting is, I'd also like to emmigrate to Australia at some point if possible, having spent a couple of years there travelling and working before I went to university. Now, the murky world of conversions aside, I've noticed that Flight Instructors are on the list of jobs that are acceptable to get the appropriate visa for permenant residency (you have to have sponsorship/a job offer though). As stated, flight instruction is quite clearly on my plan of attack. If, for whatever reason, this doesn't work out, then I could (given I don't know what my alternate career will be yet) choose a funding/plan B career that is on the list for skilled workers immigration.

There's lots to consider, and it's not easy, but I like a challenge. Anyway, that's about the size of where I'm at plan wise, having read lots of valuable information here. Would any of the more experienced people wish to comment on this plan of attack I have, point out any holes, and if it's sensible etc? I've just turned 22, so age wise I think things will be ok for me.

Thanks!

[nh2301]

I did a J1 program, (started at Ari-Ben then transfered to a similar program at a school which isn't a bait-and-switch scam. Up to date information can be found here:http://forums.jetcareers.com/flight-academies-and-fixed-base-operators-fbo/67026-ari-ben-aviator.html). It's a really good concept, although it limits you to the most expensive programs at schools whaich aren't necessarily the best. It's posible to get the same rating much cheaper at one of the many M1 FAA schools, so you're paying quite a lot for the opportunity of an instructors job.

On the plus side, you'll have plenty of time to marry an American and stay in a country where aviation works (even if not much else does!).

[IRISHPILOT]

read the small print and then compare it with what you want.

I did not enjoy my time at that school when I was there and things got a lot more expensive when in FLA. - At the top of the page, they say this course is 52995USD, at the bottom it is already 5000USD dearer!! it does not include JAA ATPL groundschool, but includes a JAA PPL AND FAA PPL, which is utterly useless (the FAA one is all you need). No JAA SE IR, no ME IR, not even training for that. Well, for that you'd best need a sim and they don't have one. (they mention that the conversion of the FAA ME IR can be done partly on a sim but forget to mention that they neither have one, nor will help you with this process).

Typical for them: an annotation with two **, (but this does not refer to anything on the page), saying that sales tax is included, this means that SALES TAX IS NOT INCLUDED. - Assuming it is 6%, this adds around 3500USD.

One more thing: All this information is on the Ari Ben Aviator website, and they do not hold ANY approvals from any JAA CAA. Their aircraft are N-reg (which is no problem) and they do not employ any JAA instructors. They pretend to, but they simply don't. It is EFT that hold the approval but they are possibly not able to afford their own website anymore??

This is not to slag them off, it is easy to interpret this website. - And I am not saying that other companies are any better, but do read some more on Pprune and look into doing everything FAA, your choice of schools is much wider and you'll save a bunch...

cheers IP

[geordiejet]

Pros:

Good price.
Quick.
Decent quality instruction in some schools,
Good continuity of training.

Cons:

Most ask for upfront payments - so if you don't like the school, you will loose a lot of money on cancellation charges.

The myth that the weather in FL is perfect for flying is utter bollox.

Training will take longer than advertised - so buy a flexible ticket, or be prepared to spend a fortune on last minute, one way fares home.

If things get nasty, no matter how bad, you do not have any legal rights or protections from the FAA or CAA. So think carefully before committing to anything.

[belleh]

I believe the FAA comment was in relation to the PPL. I've been given various reasons, which I wont repeat here because they're prevalent elsewhere, as to why it's better to go with an FFA PPL than a JAA PPL if I want to get a JAA fATPL in the end.

Cheers for the insight guys, having looked into it, and with the help of you lot, I don't think that's a school for me. I'm someone who would rather spend the extra thousands on quality as far as is possible, even if it takes an extra year or whatever to save.

I'm also close to certain I'll be building up an alternate career as I pay for everything in a modular style, given the airline industry situation, this seems to be the most sensible way forward.

[AlphaMale]

> Finish my final year at uni with the best grade I can(!)
2) Start building a career with which I can pay for my training.
3) As cash permits, take the modular approach and build my way towards a frozen ATPL over the course of a couple of years.
4) Result should be debt free, and have my fATPL. Go get instructor rating.
5) By this time, I have a few years in chosen alternate career (this is good because it can always be there to fall back on). Go find instructor job, either part or full time.
6) Build hours as instructor. Experience students trying to kill me. Apply to airlines as my CV starts to beef up hours and experience wise.
7) Hopefully, at some point, get offered some kind of airline job, whether its a turboprop or jet offer, take it.
8) If turbo prop, get more hours, beef up CV further, apply for jet jobs. And so on...

All the while, I'll have my BSc Computer Science (Hons) and some kind of career to fall back on and support me through tough times. Hopefully low debt due to modular approach.

Sounds like you've taken/planning a similar approach to myself.

I studied IT (BSc) and will be looking to build my certifications/experience in the field before entering my long/costly flight training. If I come out with a fATPL and no job then I'll go into contracting earning more than a FO until I'm successful with my flying CV. I'd be more than happy to work full time as a FI if funds allow or work 3 days in IT, 3 days as a FI with 1 day off per week.

I'll be looking to go to EAA to carry out my FAA PPL in Oct/Nov (still need to book it) then come home and build some hours while studying the ATPL GS via BGS and then getting a J1 Visa and completing the FAA MEP/CPL/IR/CFI and converting them when I get back to the UK.

Good luck.

[dapilot6]

My advice is to stay away from AriBen Aviator and EFT.

Aviator had many aircraft maintenance issues, and while I was there, we had at least 10 "maintenance" days, where no flying was allowed. And those 10 days happened in a 30 day span. The instructors were good, but overworked, and many of them had 6 or more students at time, meaning you could not even be scheduled every day. The staff was not real helpful or easy to deal with, and I have seen many of other students running in the opposite direction of certain management individuals with their tail between their legs!!! If you complain or criticize whilst you are there, you'll be sorry.

As far as EFT is concerned, I am told by the CAA that they no longer hold any approvals and cannot train anybody. They have no CFI or Head of Training, and have not actively had one since last year, as they all work for an airline now. And they had only 2 instructors that were JAA for many many months and one of them also flew Aviator students. The student ratio there was about 6-8 per instructor, and yes, many people left without completing their training and being owed monies. It seems to me that the owners of this company need to accept the responsibility for the downfall of a once fine JAA school, and not throw the blame on others.

Everything you hear is not always the way it really is.

In the end, it is who gives you the best sales pitch.

[civil aviation]

This has drifted into the merits, or otherwise, of AB/EFT, when there are other more credible JAA FTO's in the USA who have all been in business a long time. Also, don't forget that plenty of people have lost loads of money or been ripped-off by UK FTO's so training here is just as risk-prone.

The notion that CAA offers any financial 'protection' in the UK is laughable.
Regulators are only interested in training standards, compliance, safety etc.
They will treat all FTO's the same, wherever they are located, and, guess what, without independent and/or documentary evidence will believe their examiner, or the instructor or engineer, rather than a dissatisfied student.

The other criticisms are spurious. Obviously, if you book a course or package deal you will have to pay when you book. Also, if you book, say, 4 weeks accommodation, you will get..... 4 weeks so you, not the FTO, decided the duration. However, I am sure none of the JAA-FTO's would have any problem in making more money if you preferred to pay-as-you-go at their 'a la carte' prices or if you wanted to stay & pay for longer

The only warning, applies anywhere, is make sure you have everything in writing and answers on potential extras such as fuel surcharges, books and headset cost, cost of exams, landing fees, does price include or exclude tax?

p.s. curious Erik has been instructing- is he a US citizen or working illegally?

[Day_Dreamer]

My advice is simple
Stay away from the USA / FAA route.
Unless they have an approved CAA course, you can obtain the list of CAA approved schools from the UK CAA either by e-mail or calling and requesting the information.
Try and keep to one or at most two training establishments which will document your progress and provide you with a training file containing your full records.
If you plan to go down the FAA and convert route, that will be cheaper than the same European course owing to the weakness of the US$, and the FI time will be of some value, but the time frame will be much longer as you will have to sit all JAA exams, and take several flight checks. Not to mention the cost involved.
Time will only tell what the result of the current fuel price increase will be, but for sure there will be more redundancies in the UK and Europe, in which case you will be in the same market place as many other trained pilots some type rated, others straight out of the Integrated schools.
And my experience has shown that recently converted licences are less marketable than the home grown JAA approved fATPL.
Bite the cost bullet and go down the JAA route and get an FI rating.
Work for a Flight school which has an air taxi operation if you can, then when the market improves apply to the airlines.
This aviation recession, will not last for ever, but with oil heading for the $150 mark cut backs are inevitable.

[IRISHPILOT]

DD, please do read up on what is needed: an ICAO PPL (and there is a reason why the CAAs in this world do not specify that you need a PPL from the country where you do your fATPL).


Then there is that argument by many that if you want to fly for a UK airline you should train in the UK. - Well, there are some UK airlines that do fly to the US like BA, Globespan, BMi, etc, etc. Ryanair is Irish, so there are really very few airlines left that stay in the UK that you can apply to.

Once you go to larger airlines, they will ask for your experience flying in other continents, and I am quite happy to be able to tick all boxes. Fancy you have never been across the channel and try to explain that...

International experience does look good on a CV and the largest airlines worldwide do not train in their home countries only. Ab initio and recurrent.

If you want a folder with your training records, I suggest you go to a photocopier and keep a record yourself. And of course you do not have to do all in the US, but a PPL is sufficient, paired with a couple of hours built, especially all required flights for CPL issue, like night and Xcountry. If you made the mistake to get a licence that you loose upon gaining your CPL, then I can understand your frustration, but it is not fair to advise people to do the same mistake.

With this approach, belleh, FAA PPL and hours, then the rest somewhere in Europe, there is NO conversions to be taken care off and no night qualification to be done for the PPL and a couple of thousands to be saved, not to mention the experience.

Good luck with your training! IP

[SD.]

Don't bother with a JAA PPL. To start the ATPL ground studies, you only need an ICAO PPL, doesnt have to be CAA.

Find a good, reputable FAA school and do the stand alone FAA PPL. It's cheaper, includes a night rating and IMO will give you better handling skills. From someone that has done both FAA/CAA PPL and CPL, the FAA skill tests were much more practical and your knowledge is really tested during the oral portion of the check ride.

You'll find many people that disgaree with going the 'American route' have never flown in the states.

Never pay up front, let any one threaten you with cancelling your visa and remember you're the customer!

[Day_Dreamer]

IRISHPILOT
I am far too old a bunny to worry about my licences.
JAA ATPL, FAA ATPL, IAA ATPL, to name a few.
Currently a trainer, and heavilly involved in selection.
I can tell those who are interested that a JAA licence from a reputable training school or a maximum of two, is what the industry will require as a standard in the near future.
Also the JAA authorities are about to require that a student can produce his / her full training record when applying for a licence.
The doors to the lower cost ways and possibly lower standards (Not a time or place to discuss standards) are about to be closed.
The self improver route is almost over, I am sorry to say. (A good route for many in the past)
The CAA will shortly require that ALL instructors hold the JAA type of licence for which they are instructing, this would mean many overseas schools currently holding JAA approvals to suspend or reduce operations pending resolution of the problem.
I came down the integrated route when the full course at Oxford including room and board was £7000 and a twin cost £36 / hour.
Yes an old wrinkly and proud of it, also proud to be counted among the Oxford alumni.
Care must be taken and advice sought, before embarking upon training abroad, especially as the rules are changing.

[belleh]

Thanks for all the advice, and I'm glad that this thread has been turned back to a more generic USA/not discussion rather than a specific school thread; perhaps I was wrong to include an example school.

From what I can see, as it stands at the moment, the best way to start is to get an FAA PPL due to the inclusion of night rating, slight savings etc. I'll be in a position to do this in a year or so, but I'll keep my finger on the pulse in the meantime, and if the situation swings towards what Day_Dreamer has suggested, then of course I'll act accordingly. I'd very much rather spend a few extra thousands and know that I'll get as close to quality training as is possible, than try and score a quick saving and regret it later.

Either way, I'll be taking it nice and slow, and keep taking in the state of the industry.

As a follow up question, a bit I'm a little confused about. Say this time next year, I come home with a shiny new (FAA) PPL, and want to take a modular route, what's the best option from there? I've heard that you don't want to go catapulting around on your own hour building, because you'll get into bad habits etc. From there, would I start the learning for the 14 exams and take those, THEN go and hour build, or..? This is the only part I think I'm still a bit hazy on.

Thanks for the good info folks.

[gmac1977]

Skymates: Dallas for your JAA PPL for £3000
Knock out the CATS JAA ATPL theory for £1000
Hour building: 70 hours in the states = £3500
Hour building: UK 40 hours £4000
UK CPL/MEP/IR/MCC in the UK £19500

Total: £31000

Result: exactly the same shoes as anyone reading this!

No thinking

[zondaracer]

There are lots of schools in the US that will sponsor an education visa, i have heard Ariben doesnt necessarily have planes that are always working and not the best run facility.

I spent a few hours at Journey's Aviation in Broomfield Colorado, it is at the base of the rocky mountains and there are over 300 sunny days a year, but enough Instrument weather and mountain flying. not to mention only an hour from some of the best ski resorts the USA has to offer.

http://www.journeysaviation.com/student_visa_aviation.php
I currently live in arizona, and there are tons of schools down here, so i can help you find a school here or also in the san diego area (http://www.scanavia.com/site.php?menuID=3 http://www.sdfti.com/International/index.html) (which is a really nice area, both links are schools authorized to issue visas) since I am somewhat familiar with that area.

[sky&ocean]

Hi Belleh,

In a few words : I am about to complete my training here in Florida and can give you a few insights if you wish !

First, it will always last longer than advertised : weather, instructors & planes availabilities etc...
Second, it will always cost you more than you thought...

But overall, it will be much faster and cheaper than in Europe and the conversions are no troubles what so ever. Accommodation is usually very easy and cheap : I share a house with other students: furnished all included you can find a rent for approx. 500$/month. A vehicle is also not a problem and I used a scooter from home to the Airport everyday with a budget of 3$ a week, no insurance & no drivers license necessary under 50cc !

I have myself enrolled in a "Career Pilot Program" and I end up with a full FAA ME/CPL/IR as well as a JAR-ATPL and a JAR ME/CPL and 300 hours.
So the only conversion I will have to do is the FAA to JAA/IR in Europe and the cost is roughly 5000 Euros !

These are practical informations that may help you taking a decision !

Good luck and keep the blue side up !

Sky&Ocean

[IRISHPILOT]

s&o, you'd better read up JAR FCL! There is no such thing as a JAR ATPL with TT300, nor any ATPL in the world (there used to be in Germany until JAR started there). That is probably where you come from, as it is impossible to convert for 5000 Euro in the UK...

[sky&ocean]

Of course my ATPL is frozen until I reach the 1500 hours necessary to "unfreeze" it (including all the night time, PIC etc, etc...) I was just explaining one of the various options to do a complete program.
And where did you read that I was talking about 5000 Euros in the UK (it would be Pounds by the way in this case)?
I have had several quotations for such a FAA-IR conversion to JAA, all below 5000 Euros, but definitely not in the UK !

Regards.

[selfin]

There is no such thing as a frozen ATPL, fATPL, etc. These are romantic constructs enabling the ego-challenged to pretend they're in something of a privileged airline pilots' club. You don't hear the Americans pretentiously boasting of frozen ATP Certificates, frozen Astronaut Certificates, etc.