ATP Scheme (easyjet type rating and line hrs)

[al1975]

just joined this forum to find out what the job hunting folk like myself thought of this new scheme offered to train at easyjet. for those who have not come across it before, its done through a company called airline training partnership and is advertised heavily on pprune.

you pay for type rating and 150 line hours with the prospect of joining easyjet or another associated airline. to me who has been looking for work for almost a year it seems like a good option and maybe time to bite the bullet and pay for a type rating.

seems like a similar setup to that at ryanair. has anyone else joined or is already on the course? what was the assessment like and did you have to pay for it?

any info would be much appreciated for this out of work and very depressed pilot!!!!!

cheers

[jkl]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328340

[al1975]

that thread does not give any indication of what the selection is like or the debate in terms of paying for a type rating in the current climate. just seems to be easyjet guys with jobs bashing this scheme down. i can understand them being a bit annoyed but where else am i meant to start my flying career? im sure there are wannabes like myself considering this as a chance at a job.

[al1975]

if someone was to go for this i would have thought that with a type rating and line hours done they may be ahead of incoming ctc guys. surly employing the ATP guys would be cheaper for easy in this tough time for airlines?

i dont know this cos i have not yet heard from anyone who has gone for selection or anyone who is on the course.

[BerksFlyer]

The line hours won't be THAT useful. It is only 150, and the usual required amount of hours is 500. Also it will effectively limit your possibilities because you will only be attractive to airbus operators.

i can understand them being a bit annoyed but where else am i meant to start my flying career?

There are many ways to start your career. You don't honestly think everyone else pays to work do you?

Look outside the box. Go to Africa, look at turboprop operators, go to other parts of Europe, become an instructor. There are more airlines than just the well known ones.

This isn't the same as the Ryanair offering. The Ryanair scheme is better than this because:

it is cheaper
you actually have a job at the end
you get paid (albeit poorly at the start)

[Husky One]

You need to look harder guys. This is just a revenue earner for Easyjet. You can get the rating for half this cost in europe. Chances of getting a job at the end = very very slim.

[modern monkey]

Don't pay easyjet 30grand to work for them, you spineless muppet. There are many way's to get on in the airline industry without paying 30grand to work for easyjet.

taken from dictionary.com:

job:1.a piece of work, esp. a specific task done as part of the routine of one's occupation or for an agreed price: She gave him the job of mowing the lawn. 2.a post of employment; full-time or part-time position: She was seeking a job as an editor.

So do you want a job / career, which is something you actually get paid to do?

If so then go out and get one and don't entertain the money grabbing, fool exploiting chancers that are running this scheme.

Or are you in this game because "it has always been your dream to fly"?
If so then give Jimmy Saville a ring instead. Piss off and stop turning my profession into some kind of playground for kids with rich daddies / trust funds to come and "play aeroplanes".

These kind of schemes and the idiots who pay them lip service are ruining the industry.

[Strato Q]

Modern Monkey - grow up, he was just asking for some advice in these difficult times. Try and engage your brain before you post again!:*

[modern monkey]

My brain is fully engaged thankyou very much. Its the people who entertain these ridiculous "pay to work" schemes that need to engage their brains.

I don't care how hard times may be, the very principle of paying an airline to work on revenue gaining flights is rotten to the core and reeks of sickening desperation. I stand firm in my conviction that those who do so are not professional pilots, but hopeless dreamers, who through their actions compromise the integrity of our profession.

[al1975]

wow!!! what a mature response. do u seriously think that posts like this are going to make these SSTR schemes go away.

no matter how much you dislike it this scheme is out there and im sure the organisation in question will manage to fill the posts on offer.

my question was aimed at unemployed pilots disillusioned at the lack of opportunities at this present time in ''your'' industry. and i wondered if anyone on pprune had been for the selection process.

unfortunately times change and at present things seem to be heading in this direction. was hoping for a valuable debate not a slanging match.

[BerksFlyer]

do u seriously think that posts like this are going to make these SSTR schemes go away.

But this isn't just an SSTR, it's the line hours that are causing the problem amongst pilots.

[G SXTY]

surly employing the ATP guys would be cheaper for easy in this tough time for airlines?


Indeed it would al1975. And following your logic through to it's conclusion, once your 150 hrs of line training are completed, do you think it would be cheaper for Easyjet to give you a job or take on another person who's prepared to pay for the privilege of sitting in the right hand seat?

Can you see the problem?

[al1975]

so does that mean that you believe easy are taking hrs away from employed pilots for these kind of students to complete their 150 hrs. i was under the impression that fo's at easy were being overworked. also its only 32 students over the period of a year i think. not that many hrs going to atp students when comparing to total flight hrs at easy.

would be interesting to hear from someone who is on this course. are these students being treated fairly when on the line training seeing as they are paying for the experience.

[al1975]

that is a good point g sxty. have seen the advertising say that this is only for 32 pilots though. however if easy are making money out of this they will probably continue with the scheme. but if easy want to continue to make money in this way as ryanair does then the students following this course must get employment. it will not work otherwise.

[G SXTY]

A proportion of them may get jobs, but nowhere is it guaranteed. And the way the job market is going, I'd say the prospects are looking bleaker every month. Are you prepared to bet another £30k on top of your training costs that you'll get a job at the end of it?

By paying to fly for EZ you give them a commercial incentive not to employ you. Why should they when there will no doubt be a queue of people prepared to pay them?

As for the scheme not working if people don't get jobs at the end of it - I suspect there are more than enough desperate wannabes who are prepared to roll the dice and convince themselves it will work out for them.

I never thought I'd see the day, but Ryanair's scheme looks positively attractive by comparison. :hmm:

[modern monkey]

By paying to fly for easyjet, you are by definition taking work from other honest, professional hard working pilots. If their pilots are overworked then they need to take on more paid pilots.

[jkl]

Flying Clara, Whilst I admire your optimism you are a little naive in that you do not realise there are no jobs at the moment.

It doesn't matter how many hours you have on type there are no jobs at easy so you are quite likely to find yourself with 150 hours on type & looking for employment elsewhere. I hope you consider this carefully before jumping in to this scheme.

[al1975]

flying clara, would really like to hear your experiences with the selection at atp. cheers

[BerksFlyer]

Clara,

While easyJet only want 50 hours, most airlines want 500. So when you realise that there aren't any jobs going, good luck with the search...

actual easyjet hours with easyjet planes, routes, slots, passengers, SOPs

That'll be something to tell your girlfriends won't it. What a day out :ok:

Creating easyJet revenue and hence easyJet profit. Even more profit seeing as you are kindly offering to cover the costs of the captain, and effectively being the highest paying passenger on board. easyJet are more like easyProfit with people like you.

I hope you're happy when you're in the aircraft knowing that you're keeping a professional pilot sat at home twiddling his/her thumbs.

What are the merits of this scheme to you? Why not go to Ryanair where they actually offer you a job? Is it because you like the pretty orange?

Or even better, why not go out and do some flying for money. Build your hours and experience the proper way without having to buy your way in. Too much like real flying?

[wbryce]

seems like a similar setup to that at ryanair.

Far from it. This makes RYR's route attractive IMO.

[al1975]

is there anyone out there who has actually been through this scheme?

would really appreciate some info on it because its hard to gage the kind of company that is associated with this. cannot find anything on the internet regarding past experiences of other trainees.

has anyone been through any training with this organisation (ATP)?

[Rhodes13]

Perhaps the reason there is no feedback is because the company has just been setup to exploit you and disadvantage workers at Easyjet by all accounts a company TRE!

Suggest if you take a wide berth from this. You won't be liked by easy FO's and you will not get a job with easy. After the course you will then only be able to apply to airbus companies and you wont have enough time for the contract market. Are you going to keep paying more money till you get to the 500 hours? All in all a pretty ****ty deal that even the company admits is a revenue raiser in tough times! So save you money and go and get a FI ticket and actually earn some money instead.

[Mercenary Pilot]

would really appreciate some info on it because its hard to gage the kind of company that is associated with this.

Dodgy, underhanded and unethical. Not hard to gauge at all. :ok:

[Cancel2LateLunches]

Ladies and Gents, although I understand how attractive this scheme sounds in the current climate I would urge caution. Easyjet are slowing down expansion and there is currently talk of closing some of the smaller bases. These two things combined would suggest that your chances of being employed when you complete your hours are slim, if you then add to that a holding pool for experienced pilots and the steady stream of cadets from CTC it becomes clear that this really is just a money making scheme for the company. I would suggest that if you have the money for this you would be far better off in the Ryanair cadet course were you will find yourself employed at the end of your training. I’m not suggesting that RYR are an ideal company but with a full time job (with a poor starting salary ☺) you can sit tight, build your hours and when times are better you will then be well placed to move on to where you want be.

[saucy jack]

From above:

"are these students being treated fairly when on the line training seeing as they are paying for the experience."

Well if not please take your complaint to the Customer Services Desk in the departure hall.

"Well Sir, for £129.99 plus a £20 change of booking fee I can get you on this afternoon's Malaga flight....and, sorry sir?...You'd also like to be the Pilot? I'm afraid I'll have to call my Supervisor."

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

British Midland back in the early and mid 1990s (last recession for airline sector and recover years) used to sell B737 self funded type rating courses using their Sims. There was a suggestion but no promise and no formal agreement that those who took the course might be considered for employment with the airline if there was any recruitment need at the time.

Some did in fact get into BM in this way but others did not. The easyJet scheme follows this pattern but adds some line training. Similar to the Astraeus arrangements in years gone recently by.

Its not an evil plan to exploit people particularly. Rather it is a Type Rating course + Line Training hours for those with the money and desire to take their training up past the CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC level. At the moment I think it entails all of 8 guys from Africa who will be heading back there at the end of it.

What you will all come to realise in the coming months and years is that every airline in Europe is going to be fighting tooth and nail for survival. Things will get nasty. People will be upset. It will not be nice. Wannabes are on the bottom rung of the ladder which means every bit of crap falls their way.

Its a feature of the industry.


WWW

[bananaman2]

I had a look at this scheme as well but although I've read and can understand the points mentioned for and against in this and other threads, more of the problem I have is with the reputation of the company as a type rating provider - from past experince not just in aviation when someone is providing a good product, they obviously need marketing but if the product is good they don't need to oversell it, people will come, with this product there looks to be too much sales pitch and 0845 numbers going on.

Which brings me to my main point - hopefully not too much off the point of this thread, has anyone had experience of the the Alteon/Thomas Cook(My Travel) scheme. Would have thought the same reservations apply to this scheme, however what makes me consider this more than the ATP, is that Alteon are more established and possibly more well respected, their claim is that upon completon of the course they have a 100% record of placing people in work (and when I say that, I don't think they just mean Thomas Cook but any airline). Personally if i were to consider the course i'm happy to go abroad for work if there were no opportunities within Thomas Cook e.g India etc, so I think the job risk is less. Also whilst the ATP scheme is a bit of a unknown, the guy from from MyTravel actually came down to Oxford a couple of years back to promote this method of entry and proposed that this was the standard method to apply (for a low hours pilot) apart from CTC - guess what i'm saying is it seems less of a new gimmick in the current economic climate because it was always the way.

Thoughts appreciated, especially those who have considered the scheme or been through it.

[al1975]

thanks for the info www. am i right in thinking that u meant all the guys going on this scheme are from africa?

and also what are the Astraeus arrangements in years gone by? sorry if i sound a bit clueless about this but i have never heard of these people.

[al1975]

great post bananaman, i am thinking exactly the same. but we cant seem to find anyone who has actually gone and met the people at atp. i think i will apply just to see what sort of company they are. i agree their website would put doubt into the minds of us wannabes. it seems a little brash and not very professional.

[Sonic69]

It seems that there's nobody with 1st hand experience of these schemes speaking up. Anybody gone through SSTR at all? I'm looking at the banner of www.eaglejet.net (http://www.eaglejet.net) on top of the screen right now. How about them?

[al1975]

the complete silence from people who have done schemes like this is not a good sign. maybe they paid for the type rating and havent got a job out of it. that would be embarrassing to spend over 30k and then tell someone about it.

would have thought that if people were successful in these type of schemes they would probably speak up.

[Tolan]

ATP seems to be a new business, so that would be why no one has gone through this scheme as of yet.

Does anyone have any opinions on the Wizz Air scheme offered by ATP?

[Ylva]

out of all the schemes out there i would rather go for FR it gives the most realistic chance and you pay much less,

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Do this scheme and you're nuts. Simple. If you have 30K to blow then fire away. Ezy have recently announced one base closure with possibly more to follow and are getting rid of a/c. They don't need pilots, they need to cut costs and find new ways of creating revenue. You see where this is going? The new ATP scheme will make ezy money. That's as far as it goes.

I'll not bleat on about the morals of this scheme, its been done on terms and endearments, but yes, a lot of easyjet pilots are totally pissed off with the company. If you're a low hour fATPL desperate for a job then you won't listen to any of this or care about the implications of this scheme - to be fair I can understand that.

But I'm sorry - you are PAYING ezy to work for them. It's wrong, from every conceivable angle. Good luck to everyone who goes for this, if you end up with a job at the end of the 150hrs (again, morals of the scheme aside) I'd be pleased for you. I'd also be astonished.

[startownairline]

Hi All,
I am looking at the easyjet scheme too. But the cost and risks are really too high.

Then I got an idea. Why not use the money to start our own cargo airline. Then we can hire the captains and training captains and lease a plane. 7 wanabe are just nice to have a 1 cargo plane company. All 7 wanabe are just nice to rotate as first officers to fill the plane.

It would be even nicer if there are out-of-jobs captain that will join us.

Objective of the operations is to break even and pay our salary while accumulating hours while flying cargo.

Interested, drop me an email.
myownairline.

[Sonic69]

I'm with you! :ok: 6 more to go!

[lukiduke]

Hi Clara,

how are you?Sorry but i was looking for some info about the assessement in EasyJet becouse i've to make the selections nex week,could you help me whit some info about the thech. questionare and so on?
Many thank's in advance Clara,
kind regards,

Lukiduke.

[Troy McClure]

From Easyjet's internal communications:

Airline Training Partnership (ATP)

There has been much rumour and speculation these past few months about a recent initiative we have embarked upon with a new supplier ATP.

Without wishing to let the truth get in the way of a good rumour I would however like to avail you of the facts.

We have an agreement with ATP to train 32 cadets this summer to the total of 150 hours per cadet. They then all have a pilot position to go to with another carrier upon successful completion of their training. They have not been employed by us and are outside our pilot establishment so in effect they are an extra resource for this summer. This is a very good opportunity for us because it allows us to effectively sell our surplus training capacity in the summer whilst earning significant revenue for us and in the current climate this is very welcomed.

I can accept that initial advertising on ATP’s website which made claims of “join the easyJet pilot programme" were misleading but you will note that these claims have since been removed. ATP has been advised not to use the easyJet name, logo or other such brand material to market their services.

My thanks go to all of the line trainers that are conducting flying this summer.

[Tim Shannon]

Damn, I saw this not so long ago and thought it might be an open door into the commercial airlines. Not so sure I want to try it now...:uhoh:

[Toasty]

what about the Thomas cook scheme/ Alteon scheme anyone heard any positive reports from people gaining employment with thomas cook at the end of it? Seems like a good scheme as far as training standerds but cash & risk are high.

[al1975]

i would also like to know of people with past experience on the thomas cook scheme. and i think atp have filled up all their positions on the easyjet course because its come off the website and cant seem to get through to their office. seems like people must have thought it was a good deal but seems expensive to me.

[bananaman2]

think it's still up there but has been rebranded, if you read Troy McClure's post above, there's been quite a backlash about the impact of this programme within easy so any reference to easyjet has now been removed.

Ran some searches on the forum about the Alteon/Sigmar scheme but found nothing too recent. None of the info referred to anyone having been through the programme. This scheme has been mentioned on pilotjobsnetwork.com though under Thomas Cook so may be a positive or negative depending on your viewpoint.

[tps]

bananaman2 the Alteon/Sigmar A320 SSTR scheme is indeed up and running again with Thomas Cook. You can find details on various job websites (Aviationjobsearch.com, Flight Global ...) or sigmaraviation.com under the training heading.

[Ylva]

I know someone who has just finished the course,as Troy Mcclures post says if you have read it, its only a type rating and a line training programme and nothing more, no job with easy jet this has been confirmed with my friend who has just finished.

[tony2F]

Ylva, has your friend been offered a place at any other airline? These guys told me that after training they had positions guaranteed, full time with other airlines and mentioned one specifically ,by name, to me which is based in the middle east. Has your friend been offered anything through ATP, or is it just hot air? I'd be keen to know as I got this phone call only a couple of days ago??

[Ylva]

the guy i know is still doing his line training,what he has told me that they have not been told for a fact were they are going to be placed,everything is in the air,so he is not sure what next after easy jet line training so it seems like it 50/50