check and training cap's

[rep]

howdy
just a question i was thinking about before
do all check and training cap's have to have an instructor rating?
if yes, and they dont have an instructor rating, are they required to go to a flying school and learn on a c172 or something similiar, or would the airlines actually do it for you?
cheers!

[Keg]

Instructor rating not required. All 'training captain' training is normally done in house with an approved syllabi. A training captain can't go and instruct ab initio like a Grade III, etc.

[A37575]

Instructor rating not required

It doesn't matter if they are not allowed to instruct ab-initio students. Whether its training a GFPT student or a qualified pilot, surely if these chaps are required to train pilots as in check and "train" they must have had some experience as flying instructors otherwise how are they taught how to instruct?

Do they undergo a CASA approved Principles and Methods of Instruction examination that the rest of us instructors had to do and still do? Do they undergo a Human factors course on the basics of flying instruction? So what if they are required to complete a syllabus on check and training? Grade 3 flying instructors also have to complete a CASA approved syllabus in order to qualify as a flying instructor. Or do check and training "captains" obtain their title only through seniority in the company or union (its who you know not what you know) and not by their demonstrated skill at imparting knowledge? :confused:

[dogcharlietree]

Do they undergo a CASA approved Principles and Methods of Instruction examination that the rest of us instructors had to do and still do? Do they undergo a Human factors course on the basics of flying instruction? So what if they are required to complete a syllabus on check and training? Grade 3 flying instructors also have to complete a CASA approved syllabus in order to qualify as a flying instructor. Or do check and training "captains" obtain their title only through seniority in the company or union (its who you know not what you know) and not by their demonstrated skill at imparting knowledge?

Wooooo, settle down there A3...
You are comparing (generally) young inexperienced (both as a pilot and in life's experiences) with a far more qualified and experienced pilots. That's like comparing apples and aliens.
Firstly, practically anyone can check. It's not hard. Either the candidate complies or does not.
Training. Well, now that's another ball game. In my experience (most) training captains have been "selected" because of their ability, temperament, skill, knowledge and their experience. This has all been gained over many, many years and coming up through the ranks.
Sure, some, like you describe, slip through the system. But generally if you come across one like I've descibed - just listen and learn!

[Keg]

Do they undergo a CASA approved Principles and Methods of Instruction examination that the rest of us instructors had to do and still do?

I have no idea. Previously they all qualifed for a Cert IV in Workplace Training and Assessment. I suspect that trumps PMI. I don't know if they now qualify for a Cert IV TAA- probably not given that it's now such a strange qualification- but they do jump through a few fiery hoops.

Do they undergo a Human factors course on the basics of flying instruction?

Human Factors? Please explain? If you're talking about learning styles and so on then yes. If you're talking about aviation specific human factors related to training then that's a cottage industry that I want in on! Instruction is instruction and those that are good at it can generally chalk and talk or instruct in an aeroplane. Those that are crap at it are crap no matter where they are. :ok:

Or do check and training "captains" obtain their title only through seniority in the company or union (its who you know not what you know) and not by their demonstrated skill at imparting knowledge?

dogcharlietree has this pretty much spot on. First and foremost it's about having demonstrated being a professional operator over a decent period of time- something that most junior Grade IIIs haven't even had the opportunity to do in real life before they become an instructor- and then they need to jump through the fiery hoops of the training.

I'd put up the non-technical aspects QF training system against a Grade III instructor course every day of the week.

[Sqwark2000]

Whilst command upgrades are usually subject to a seniority system, most training and C&T jobs are at the discretion of the company, so they generally select people they know are capable to fulfill the role, regardless of wether or not they've held an instructor rating in the past.

As an example in NZ, Eagle Airways puts all their Training Capt's through a D-Category** Instructor rating including 2 flight tests (day / night), even if they all ready hold one plus 5 days line training with a C&T Capt.

**No equivalent rating in OZ. D-Cats allow experienced pilots to give instruction for type ratings and Instrument Ratings ( provided they have type rating themselves and a current IR). The D-Cat is not subject to any renewals and remains active as long as your license remains current. If you don't hold any instructor rating at all and apply for a D-Cat, then an Instructional techniques Course, Most if not all the C-Cat (Gr.3) syallbus and a flight test. If you already hold an instructor rating and have min 750TT then you can apply for a d-cat as a paperwork exercise. I got mine thrown in with my multi instructor endorsement.


S2k

[Back Seat Driver]

A3
Being one of those people who has been (a hasbeen) an airline Training Captain, but never was a flight instructor. We are not there to teach the basics, like effects of controls etc. just to help the trainee learn the specifics of a particular aircrafts operation. I would suggest that most people are selected to be a training captain by being 'identified' by 'Check Captains' and other pilots higher up the chain.
Do I think that any of my trainees were robbed of input because of my lack of an 'Instructor Rating'? Absolutely not, because anyone of them will tell you that I was the best pilot they ever flew with.;)
(No longer the rooster, just a feather duster)

[Tempo]

"Or do check and training "captains" obtain their title only through seniority in the company or union (its who you know not what you know)"

That really does not make sense.....seniority means just that....seniority....and that in itself is a system that prevents people from gaining a position by kissing as*. Regardless, as has been said, it is a completely different situation. An ab-initio student under instruction is not exactly the same as someone under instruction in the RPT environment. Generally they have thousands of hours of experience and really need to be guided rather than 'taught'. I am sure the CASA approved check and training system currently used be all airlines in Australia works just fine so don't get too worked up about your PMI requirements A337575.

[300Series]

Car 217 Paragraph (D).

With a CAR 217 approved Check and Training System in place, a Check and Training Captain does not need to hold an Instructor Rating. Whether the airline itself as a company "rule" requires the C & T captain to hold one is a different story. Some airlines do and others dont. Usually the airline would pay for the candidate to get a basic Grade 3 Instructor rating so they have some practical knowledge of Basic IPM and teaching principles.

The C & T captain has to be operator and CASA approved for the job.

As an ATPL(A) holder the privilege of that license allows you to conduct conversion training on aircraft types that you hold an endorsement for without holding a Flight Instructor rating. (CAR 5.168 (2)) Provided the ATPL holder is approved under CAR 5.21. However the person that you are giving the conversion training to must hold an aeroplane pilot license. That doesnt specify wheter it can be a SPL. However I interpret it as being, PPL or higher.

So Short answer No do not need an Instructor Rating to be a Check and Training Captain, However some airlines do require it and will pay for it. You will usually also be put through some inhouse training, to make sure you conduct the C&T operation according to their C&T organisation.

[And Then]

Not all of the best airline trainers I have experienced had nor seemed to need instructional backgrounds.

What is a joke though. Is the standard of simulator instructors around the industry. Airline simulator instructors who have never flown the type they are instructing on; and in some cases, have never flown jets. :\

[Mach E Avelli]

The best sim instructors are those who have flown the type extensively in line operations, preferably with the operator. It may be possible to 'teach' to the minimum standard for a type rating but it takes operational experience to really know all the defects and difficulties that are most likely to occur out there in the real world. This is really so for LOFT exercises, which are supposed to be realistic. There is nothing worse than some guy who knows how to push all the nasty-surprise buttons in the sim but has no understanding of the MEL or the system redundancies or other protections that would make his little scenario totally improbable. I have seen pilots destroyed by a couple of particularly unreasonable sim checkies.
As for checking, one should always bear in mind the old saying, 'those that can, do; those that can't do, teach; and those that can't teach, critique. Never ask for something in the sim that you can not do as well or better.

[KRUSTY 34]

The company I work for now have to move much further down the seniority chain when throwing the "invite" for a position. This is because the older hands won't work for the pittance they are offering!

Whilst the less experienced Captains (some with no more than 6 months command), are certainly keen, it's a shame that many lack the operational experience that in many cases, can mean the difference between pass and failure for a candidate.

A bit negative I know, but it is happening.