Fuel Price

[Johnny_56]

G'day everyone,

Anyone have any guess' what will happen to GA with the increasing fuel price. As per usual there is a lot of talk of the airlines cutting routes etc and trying to be more efficient, but i haven't heard much about GA.

Just thought i'd put it out there to see what everyone's thinking

cheers

Johnny

[sms777]

G'day Johnny,

I am just as concerned as you are. To my opinion i do not think it will effect GA as much as it affects the airlines. GA flying is fast becoming a sort of recreational thing and a bit of a luxury for most of us these days due to rising cost of insurance, maintenance etc. Most of the flying schools mainly rely on overseas students and airline cadetships, the charter side of flying will still be happening because the declining number of companys available.
I live in Sydney and i think the ever increasing fuel prices are more pronunced here but i travel the roads every day and i do not see any decrease in the volume of traffic. It is in the publics opinion that there is nothing we can do about it and nothing Kevin07 can and will do about it so put up and shut up or stay home.
As for the aviation side of matters, it will not stop the weekend warriors that's for sure.
:ok:

[ZEEBEE]

You might have to start thinking about doing charters in a glider.


Time to practice thermalling skills I think :hmm:

[youngmic]

Or the industry might learn the age old science of LOP operation, and then step boldly forward to the 1950's :E

[ZEEBEE]

Or the industry might learn the age old science of LOP operation, and then step boldly forward to the 1950's

Absolutely :D

But that's wot the modern diesels do ...:cool:

It's going to take Lycoming to come on board though before LOP becomes accepted.

Already with the rising costs of fuel, the instrumentation (and injectors) that make LOP safe and viable are becoming economically attractive.

Now all that needs to be done is to dispell the myth that the "engines will run too hot"

[Green gorilla]

Brings us back to the 70s

[Capt Wally]

Like all price rises we shall adjust. Remember when we all squealed about the fuel going to a $1 a ltr? We just put up & kept buying it, more than ever. When the price reaches $2 a ltr we shall again scream out loud but will after a little while adjust the way we go about things & keep on buying it, aviation will have to do likewise. Changes will happen for sure but we have seen changes in aviation over many years for a variety of reasons, this is just another reason.


CW

[go_soaring]

Soon though, there will be the..

'have' and the 'have nots'..

[Johnny_56]

Its a bit of a worry at the moment.

there's been a few rumours flying around about Virgin not going to be able to cope with the rising fuel prices and possibly going under, sounds like ansett all over again... bye bye pilot shortage

Anyone know of any economically viable fuel alternatives for GA. Obviously diesel has been done but is that competitive with avgas & avgas engines at the moment?

[Ando1Bar]

there's been a few rumours flying around about Virgin not going to be able to cope with the rising fuel prices and possibly going under, sounds like ansett all over again... bye bye pilot shortage


Sounds nothing like Ansett all over again - different set of problems.

Tell us more about this Virgin rumour. Sounds unlikely.

[BPA]

Johnny,

I think you need to read the last few pages on the Virgin thread. JP Morgan have now said Virgin will make a profit over the next 3 years.

I think you will find there is a very good chance of seeing a few GA companies going under due to the higher fuel costs. Most of these companies run on a smell of an oily rag.

[Mick.B]

So what is the price of Avgas in your area. Particularly interested in remote area prices. Might have to get a bank loan if im gonna fill up at Birdsville this year.:eek:

[flyer_18-737]

Jetstar have remained quiet about their profit this time round. Will it be higher than their last record profit??? Or are we going to see something like 50m??

Anyone heard anything?

[Islander Jock]

So what is the price of Avgas in your area. Particularly interested in remote area prices. Might have to get a bank loan if im gonna fill up at Birdsville this year.:eek:
GAAP Airfields and the Itl airports are all around $1.83. Remote places in WA around $1.90.

Yulara is most expensive on the mainland at $2.03. And if you need Avgas on Lord Howe Island expect to pay $2.71.

Above prices are latest off the Shell price list. I'd expect BP and Mobil to be similar.

[Got the horn]

Petrol already $2 a litre in NZ, looking like going up another 10c today. Making the drive to the airport more and more expensive every day.

B-Girk!

[Clearedtoreenter]

I think you will find there is a very good chance of seeing a few GA companies going under due to the higher fuel costs. Most of these companies run on a smell of an oily rag.

At $400/hour to hire a 182, it does make you wonder where all of this will go...

[ZEEBEE]

At $400/hour to hire a 182, it does make you wonder where all of this will go...

Well, it'll relegate the inneficient dinosaurs to be tied down forever.

Unless they can be re-engined, Australia will probably get new aircraft to replace the 30 or 40 year old museum pieces still flying around.

[sms777]

Any suggestions on what new aircraft will replace the proven design of the 30-40 year old museum pieces? How old you think the aircraft is that you are flying right now?
Why do you think the RAAF finding it difficult to replace the Pig and the Hercs? They have proven themselvs to be irreplacabels in many ways.

I do not think you realise the red tape and costs involved in re-engine a Cessna-Piper-Beech today. You might as well buy a brand new one of the proven design, it will cost you less i can assure you.

[NZScion]

At my remote base in the NT, the pump price for avgas is AU$2.50/L. A place 10 mins flight from here is already charging $3.00, needless to say I don't get fuel from there.

How about the thing that was on tonday tonight this evening? Some lawnmower mechanic modified their car to run on a water/petrol blend. Seperates the Hydrogen out from the water and mixes it in the inlet manifold with the fuel/air mixture. The saving touted was 75% fuel at the cost of a few litres of water per week. An application for aviation, particularly piston driven GA aircraft?

[carbon]

It takes more energy to break a H atom from H20 than is released by combusting it (ie reforming H20).

Hydrogen is simply a storage of energy, not a source.

[youngmic]

How about the thing that was on tonday tonight this evening? Some lawnmower mechanic modified their car to run on a water/petrol blend. Seperates the Hydrogen out from the water and mixes it in the inlet manifold with the fuel/air mixture. The saving touted was 75% fuel at the cost of a few litres of water per week. An application for aviation, particularly piston driven GA aircraft?

That idea has been around for some time and the savings are real, but it burns valves out prematurely.

Much better to collect the fairy sh$t from the bottom of the garden and grind it real fine in a pestle and mortar and sprinkle it once a week over the air cleaner element. The savings aren't quite as good around 65% but the finer you grind it the better the results.:ok:

With the growing scarcity of fresh water fairy sh$t is much cheaper and readily available.

Don't make the common mistake of using gnome do do though, much lower octane rating, and leads to detonation.:=

[youngmic]

Any suggestions on what new aircraft will replace the proven design of the 30-40 year old museum pieces?

Yep, Jabiru's, seems they're about halfway there already.

All the proven designs have proved is that drag is the enemy of economy. Even a Thielert diesel running on a blend of fairy dust and slick 50 won't get good mpg if it's made to drag a barn door through the sky.

[ZEEBEE]

Any suggestions on what new aircraft will replace the proven design of the 30-40 year old museum pieces? How old you think the aircraft is that you are flying right now?
Why do you think the RAAF finding it difficult to replace the Pig and the Hercs? They have proven themselvs to be irreplacabels in many ways.

I do not think you realise the red tape and costs involved in re-engine a Cessna-Piper-Beech today. You might as well buy a brand new one of the proven design, it will cost you less i can assure you.

Well, the aircraft I own was built in 1952 and it isn't that much worse than, say a Cessna 172 built in 2002, so we've tolerated inefficiencies for a long time really.

I think I know the cost of re-engining an aircraft, since the Auster that owns me has been converted from a Cirrus Major to a Lycoming O-360 (along with Cleveland brakes etc).
The sad thing is, that though the engine change went from a 155hp to a 180hp, the aircraft is now LESS efficient than it was with the Cirrus.
It now burns 40l/hr for 100knots as opposed to the Cirrus that burnt 25L/hr for much the same speed.

As for what would replace the dinosaurs, that's a tricky one.
The Jabiru 430 I flew was appealing and appeared to have the edge on, say a C172, but is it really that much better? People do charters in C172's, but it would be a bit tougher to try to run a charter business with a Jab 430, as good as they are.
Lack of baggage area and restricted runway requirements would make it a tough call.

So in essence, I do agree that in the end it may be better to museum the existing fleet and embrace the efficiencies that a new design can offer, however there are times when I wish I had the Cirrus Major back.