Russian SU27 follow A340

[flybonanza]

Finnish media reports that two Russian Suhoi 27 fighters appeared behind a Finnair Airbus A340 flying the new Helsinki-Seoul South Korea route this past Wednesday. The fighters appeared aft of the A340 soon after the airliner had entered Russian airspace and flew at a distance of only a few hundred meters behind the airliner. Onboard was the Finnish Prime Minister and some 200 pax. According to international regulations the pilots of the A340 should have been advised if fighters are approaching the aircraft for any reason. According to Finnish ATC reps the Finnair pilots were not so informed and neither did they notice the fighters.

Sounds scary to think the Russians are using commercial airlines for target practise or as a political tool. I hope the Russian are required to explain their action.

[H.Finn]

No target practice, just a normal courtesy of arranging an escort for the P.M.
Why it was not relayed to the Finnair crew, this I do not know, perhaps the ATC ran short of English words at that point. And why any P.M. travels on a scheduled flight is also unbelievable, but that is another matter.

[Bearcat]

now mr H.Finn explain why you find it difficult to comprehend why any PM flies on a sched flight? In this day and age with fuel prices through the roof the most efficent way for a pm is through a sched flight for big distances saving the tax payers mega money. Granted the likes of George B etc have to travel in their own bubble, norm PMs from norm countries should be able to slum it with the rest of us

[WHBM]

As it was the inaugural flight it would be a bit strange if the senior politician travelling to formally open the new route at the ceremony when they got to Seoul were to travel in a different aircraft !

[TheSwede]

In Sweden both our P.M. and the King frequentley travel on scheduled flights. The King is a lot more friendly the the P.M.

Didn't Blair go with his family on a Ryanair flight a few years ago?

I think it would be a security risk to other passengers if Bush did the same. I would offload myself from such a flight.

[moggiee]

Even the Queen flies on scheduled services every now and then.

[surely not]

Some of the flights I have travelled on appeared to have several queens in the cabin :E :}

[Finn47]

The very first Finnair flight to Korea took place on Monday, the PM:s flight on Wednesday. Anyway, the latest local news says the Finnish aviation authorities have confirmed the Russian planes were on a "normal identification mission" which, however, had not been reported to Finnair in advance as would have been advisable.

[Eagle402]

Surely Not :

"Some of the flights I have travelled on appeared to have several queens in the cabin"

Rofl but be careful - you'll have Tim McLelland (spl?) on this thread like a sheet of pink chiffon !

[ACMS]

Apparently it's common practice for the US Navy to intercept and Identify commercial aircraft flying within 200 miles of a carrier battle group. They send up a F18 to obtain the rego of the aircraft, this is done from close up.

I was told this by a US Navy F 14 Pilot 3 years ago.

Nice photo of the 707 on the ice. What ever happened to it? I guess the Russkies kept all the Western "technology" and cut the rest up later.

[Finn47]

As far as I know, the ice on the lake melted and the 707 sunk to the bottom before they could recover the plane from the spot. This happened in Karelia, which under the Soviet rule became a rather backward, impoverished province.

[Maude Charlee]

Forgive the obvious question, but if nobody told the pilots of the 340 of their escort, how do we have the details of this story? I don't believe for a second that pax can see a 'couple of hundred metres' behind the a/c from their seats either.

And 'target practice'? F***s sake! Even the Daily Mail would struggle to reach that sensationalist piece of claptrap! :ugh:

[Finn47]

According to the news networks, the general manager of Helsinki-Vantaa airport, who is a former FiAF fighter pilot, was travelling with the PM and saw the fighters, identifying them as Flankers, which gives the story some credibility. Otherwise, is been a slow news day so no wonder these stories get attention.

[M609]

Russian fighters DO creep up on airliners without crews knowing. They crept up on a Virgin or BA (don´t remember which, Tokyo-London flight) flight in international waters north of Norway last summer.
NATO EW unit alerted ATC which alerted the crew.
F-16s attended and ended the "chase".

I find the Finnairs story very much plausable.

[aviate1138]

Finn47 said...

"As far as I know, the ice on the lake melted and the 707 sunk to the bottom before they could recover the plane from the spot."


Aviate wonders what the trees did? Sink with the 707? :)

[Finn47]

Seems you are most likely right. The long told semi-official version of the 707 story said the plane sunk. However, this later version, sometime after 1997, says the plane was actually dismantled and transported somewhere else. Story on a Finnish website here:

http://heninen.net/flight-902/english.htm

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

''...Korean Boeing was shot down in Karelia, Russia in 1978, with a lot of civil passengers on-board. The pilots of the plane had mysteriously altered the route so that came deep inside Russian territory. Two and a half hours they were escorted by Russian jet fighters not responding to any radio contact or visual contact attempts. At last the Soviet military commanders ordered to shoot the plane down with as much accuracy as they could do. The jet plane of Russian army hit the Boeing with a missile cutting off the piece of its wing, so the Korean plane had to land after this. Two passengers were killed others got wounds as a result of an extremely fast landing to the frozen Russian lake in Karelia, Russia near Kem’ town. The first Russian military police group arrived in two hours to the landing site. They tell that when they entered the plane the strong smell of “blood, alcohol and human fecal masses” hit into their noses. Afterwards the passengers spent three days in the Kem’ town, Karelia, Russia and were send to Helsinki, Finland on the plane on the fourth day. The crew was taken to Moscow and was questioned there, but later they returned to Korea. The plane itself was disassembled to smallest parts and sent to Russian airplane producing factories and research centers..''

[Finn47]

The Finnish media report that the Flankers appeared when the A340 was flying half way between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega, northeast of St. Petersburg. It just happens that the Russian Air Force has a base almost directly below, called Lodeynoye Pole. Look it up in Google Earth and by my count you can see some 28 Flankers parked there, so that must be where the Flankers came from.

[Finn47]

One final touch: the Finnish Broadcasting Corp YLE has finally something available in English for people to read, mostly about the politics of it all:

http://www.yle.fi/news/id92977.html

...and the picture must be a file photo, of course.

[ComJam]

Seems to happen farily regularly around the world. One of our aircraft, on task out of RAF Akrotiri was intercepted by a pair of US Marine Corps Hornets last year. They came along-side checked him out and left.....but only after Akrotiri had explained to the carrier group what he was doing "off airways" in that position....glad in wasn't the Vincennes!

[piombo]

The Korean Air B707 took a wrong turn and was intercepted and invited to land there. On the process it was damaged. One passenger was killed by a soldier as he tried to deplane.

[F14]

This year we had 2 Spanish AF aircraft go head to head with us (737) near VLC, they went down the right side about 5 miles the did a 180 and followed us. But they were slower and couldn't catch up. Maybe they were Harriers training radar controller. We could see them on TCAS and I quized ATC. They said Miltary not under his control. Was very interesting attempt at interception. Obviously not as good as QRA so can only assume rookies.(Fighter Control or Pilots)

Best one I have seen is F16 rolling inverted over the our aircraft as we climbed out. That was an RA, but coolest thing I've ever seen!Yanks!!:D

[JJflyer]

Finnish PM is useless as anything but an anchor weight and would probably suck in that too. He should travel in a railroad car at best or perhaps by bus. Tax money wasted in sending him around. Much better guys to travel. Other than the rant above. The story is very simple: Russians dropped by, didn't inform anyone on the flight, they where seen and went away.

The KAL flight. Anyone that has spent his or her early days (30 something) in the north will see from the KAL pic that the trees are typical of a marsh area of a lake and an abyss of note easily capable of sinking an airliner. Looking at the pic the aircraft rest just at about where the weeds and marsh begins and open water ends. ( I am 100% Karelian btw and it used to be a beautiful area before it was stolen by Soviet Union in an illegal and internationally condemned attack)

Piombo. You have gotten the KAL story totally wrong. They where no invited to land. They where shot down. PAX was killed by as Missile that went through the fuselage. The damage is clearly visible on the fuselage just around the trailing edge of the left wing and the wing itself. PAX killed where 2 not one. Aircraft suffered a rapid decompression and the forced to land on the lake. Some invitation eh?

[WHBM]

The Finnish media report that the Flankers appeared when the A340 was flying half way between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega, northeast of St. Petersburg.
I've been by cruise ship up the ship canal that connects Ladoga and Onega on a crystal clear day. What I recall, apart from the unending low forest surroundings, was the sheer quantity of high jet trails through the afternoon from the Far East to Western Europe westbound traffic. Seemed one about every 3-4 minutes, very organised, and most times some 3 or more in sight. They carry on overhead St Petersburg city, where you can see the same thing. So it's not in the wilderness, it's on a major commercial air route.

[Dream Land]

I think it would be a security risk to other passengers if Bush did the same. I would offload myself from such a flight. By Swede Who gives a rat's arse on what you would do. :mad:

[prowler lso]

Hey Com jam.Its very simple. Any unidentified bogey outside of the 200 radius from a CVN is just a possible threat.Once it cross's inside the 200 mile circle it then become's a target unless identified as a friendly! This is something the Captain of the ship takes very seriously as he only get's one chance to get it right when something is closing on his ship at 400 kts! Seems like i spent most of my time in the Med(a long time ago i admit!) chasing down airliners and British Nimrods who where off course or whatever.
As far as the Vincennes go's no worries for the RAF.The last time i heard the British were not in the business of bombing civillain airliners or using them as guided missile's as the Iranians threatened to do. And don't forget that at that time the treat was very high with the vivid memory of our Marines suicide bombed in Beirut! Anyway back to the thread ,this happens all the time and go's unnoticed most of the time! Hell that is one of the reasons why i became an Airline pilot! When i saw the guys up front reading the paper and not even noticing me outside(pre tcas days of course!) I thought "cush job and F/A'S Too? i can do that!!!!!

[XXPLOD]

HMTQ hasn't been on a scheduled flight for some years. She does get out and about in London though for a spot of shopping. Not quite random wandering, it's relatively pre-planned and of course a small team of Royalty Protection Officers 'discreetly' around her.

RPG - 'More Royal than the Royals.' ;)

[BEagle]

"Seems like I spent most of my time in the Med (a long time ago I admit!) chasing down airliners and British Nimrods who were off course or whatever."


And just what entitles you to blunder about the Mediterranean Sea thousands of miles from Spam-land as though you owned the place?

Flying back in formation from Dhahran to UK, we were once hailed by some mononeuronic Ohio farmboy on 243 identifying himself as 'Red Crown' demanding to know who we were. When told we were flying in international airspace in accordance with a normal flight plan on a published international route, this half wit announced "Clear to Proceed". So we told him, in words of half a syllable, that we would indeed continue our lawful progress and, in any case, it had absolutely nothing to do with him, his navy or any other Yank.

Self-appointed world policemen......:mad::mad:

"Once it crosses inside the 200 mile circle it then becomes a target unless identified as a friendly!"

So please remain within 200 miles of your own nation.

[JJflyer]

LOL BEagle... and spot on

[prowler lso]

Just trying to explain the procedure mate,like most military guys i don't make policy i follow it! And by the way during our entire 6 month deployment in the Med, we had a British Sea Harrier Detachment on board with us. Seems at the time the Brits were out of money to put to sea so they came along with us to give the boys some training! As i remember they were a great bunch of guys/excellent pilots and judging by the pictures they brought back they really liked to get up close to the "unidentified" bogeys i mentioned! Now that the Soviet navy is back patrolling the UK Gap and the Chinese opened their new submarine base on Hainan Island who would you like to keep the Sea Lanes open around the world! Or are you one of those people who just pretend the world is a kinder gentler place now and can't we just all be friends!
As far as who appointed us the worlds policeman ? Glad to give up the job anytime the EU wants it! I have many friends made over many years from all the EU military who understand this! It's very "in" right now to be anti-American (a lot of it justified) but GWB will go in Nov and things will slowly return to normal i hope. And yes if a carrier is around you still will hear on guard "unknown rider bearing 240 at 200 miles identify yourself"

[BRE]

Just a technical question: wouldn't the fighters have shown up on the finnair's TCAS?

[Finn47]

Only if the Flankers had western type transponders which were turned on - and I doubt fighter pilots on an ID mission would have them turned on anyway.

[buggaluggs]

Not if they don't want to :E

[Interflug]

Hey Com jam.Its very simple. Any unidentified bogey outside of the 200 radius from a CVN is just a possible threat.Once it cross's inside the 200 mile circle it then become's a target unless identified as a friendly! This is something the Captain of the ship takes very seriously as he only get's one chance to get it right when something is closing on his ship at 400 kts!
Based on your reasoning Iran's forces would have the same right to shoot at anything within 200 miles of their borders that is not identified as friendly!

And how does climbing exactly qualify as "closing on his ship"?

[prowler lso]

O'k lets end this here shall we and not rehash the whole Iran /Vincennes incident.I was simply trying to make the point that intercepts are way more common than most civilian trained airline pilots realize and usually go unnoticed and unreported. As to whether the Iranian's have the right to intercept/identify/ and react if required to an unidentified inbound radar contact closing on their airspace at 200 miles the answer is, they do...if they had that capability!
Fly safe out there and don't look back, something might be gaining on you!

[beardy]

interflug,

Have a look at procedures for entering Iranian airspace and you will see that you are required to contact their Air Defence Forces for identification prior to entering their airspace. Having fixed borders helps knowing when to do this unlike a boat, which paddles about a bit.

[BRE]

ok, then one more stupid technical question: isn't there some sort of proximity radar on board, just as you can find abord about any pleasure boat from 20 ft length?

I guess I always assumed there is, but thinking more closely, I've never seen it mentioned.

[Interflug]

Beardy, understood. I just would really like to see, if everyone still has the same reasoning, if a russian naval boat in international waters shot down an US airliner out of JFK climbing away over the atlantic on a published route, claiming they felt threatened by it. Hypocrisy at its best.

[JJflyer]

Underestimating the capabilities of Iranian Air Defence and their defence in general is not only stupid but downright naive. This is the prevalent policy and attitude of the ruling US "Regime".

Iranians have the capability both training and equipmentwise as well as motivation to defend their territorial integrity. If the Bush-tribe decides to go on another "Democracy" spreading mission this time into Iran they are up for a big surprise.

[Interflug]

I don't think the "Bush-tribe" is naive. They know well the consequences. Naive I would call the US taxpayer and voter that believes their lies, funds a yearly 547.000.000.000 $ military budget for "defense" of the home country and sends his children to die at the frontlines.

[Ixixly]

Umm... Interflug, you seem like a bit a sensationalist mate or maybe your not quite sure what he means. But to clear things up a CVN is a (nuclear powered?) aircraft carrier for the US, basically anything that enters within 200 miles of one becomes a 'Target' not the sort of 'Target' you yell "OMG, INCOMING, SHOOT HIM THE FUDGE DOWN!!" but the sort where the captain goes "Theres an unidentified target approaching at 200miles, send some jets up to identify it". Your whole tangent on Irans borders and the ruskies shooting people down for merely being within 200miles really does seem to be a bit sensationalist wouldn't you say?

And its not just an American thing, hell, i've gotten within 2 miles of the boundary of Military Control Zones here in Aus and they've felt the need to contact me cause i happened to be a couple of degrees off my planned route, the boys and girls in blues and greens and are just making their list and checking it twice!! Nothing wrong with that in my opinion if it keeps me cozy and they aren't just doing it to be pratts!!

And in all fairness and as harsh as it sounds, those same children signed up knowing full well they could be sent into a warzone they have no belief in. Defence is merely an easy word to type on the budget next to that big ol' fancy number you got there, don't take it for its literal meaning.

Sounds like the russians made a bit of a mistake in sending the jets up without telling anyone, perhaps it was just the pilots taking too much perogative. Honestly though i don't think any of us really know what happened or why, nor will we get the full story out of it. IMHO it sounds like a bit of muscle flexing, wouldn't be the first time in the last few months!!

[Interflug]

Ixixly, my comments were based on the shooting of a civilian IranAir A300 by the USS Vincennes, as previously mentioned in this thread. I don't think sensationalist at all, since that what you ridicule exactly happened, "SHOOT HIM THE FUDGE DOWN". If they had contacted the plane and/or sent fighters up for identification the 290 innocent people would still be alive. Nothing sensationalist in just mentioning the facts IMO.

[birrddog]

The USS Vincennes was a guided missile cruiser and had no aircraft (other than a helicopter that had already been under fire), and the circumstances of that issue were significantly different to this.

If anything it caused an update in protocol to prevent issues like these, in short through improved communication and positive identification. (communicating on the correct frequencies, providing headings the airliner would understand rather than bearing to ship, etc.)

Perhaps the question should be what would a poll state here regarding sufficient communication of military and commercial operations vis a vis presence in airspace, intent, etc? My thought... No point operating in the same air on different frequencies....

<personal opinion>
The sense I get regarding the outrage in this forum was not the interception, just the lack of communication regarding said interception... or maybe I am reading too much into this.

I don't see anything wrong with any aircraft being requested to identify itself, either by a soverign nation, aircraft carrier in the ocean, or a fellow civilian aircraft just wanting to know who else is in the sky with them to ensure the appropriate seperation/intent.
</end personal opinion>

[punkalouver]

Care to see the routing of the Korean 707. It was quite the navigation error. The article says they didn't even have INS. Paris to Anchorage seems like a long flight as well. Great circle stuff I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

[Trojan1981]

And its not just an American thing, hell, i've gotten within 2 miles of the boundary of Military Control Zones here in Aus and they've felt the need to contact me cause i happened to be a couple of degrees off my planned route, the boys and girls in blues and greens and are just making their list and checking it twice!! Nothing wrong with that in my opinion if it keeps me cozy and they aren't just doing it to be pratts!!

Yeah, I feel so much safer knowing that the RAAFs finest are protecting us from rogue, Australian registered Cessna fighter bombers:p.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22390149-662,00.html

[Ixixly]

Ahh, then excuse me Interflug, i misread your comments as relating to others not that particular incident. But the rest stands!

And yes Trojan, it certainly makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside! Hahaha, good link, didn't hear about that little gem!!

[ecureilx]

Not defending anybody or anything.

USS Vincennes did not shoot down the A300 for the fun of it.

There had been a series of gun boat attacks on the USN, and vice versa and had been threats to send in a missile to sink the AEGIS cruiser. It is another story that the USS Vincennes crew had been pumped up and a Iranian P3 had taken off at the same time.

The ship was actively trying to defend itself .. and so happened that, as per published transcriptions, that the captain tried to raise the A300 for positive ident. The plane had been squawking in a frequency to which the USN ship didn't have capability to listen to ...

When you get a high adrenaline situation, and in blunders an A300, well, disaster was bound to happen, unless cooler heads had prevailed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[Interflug]

There had been a series of gun boat attacks on the USN, and vice versa and had been threats to send in a missile to sink the AEGIS cruiser. It is another story that the USS Vincennes crew had been pumped up and a Iranian P3 had taken off at the same time.

The ship was actively trying to defend itself .. and so happened that, as per published transcriptions, that the captain tried to raise the A300 for positive ident. The plane had been squawking in a frequency to which the USN ship didn't have capability to listen to ... The USS Vincennes was in Iranian territorial water. So if there were threats to them they were asking for it. International law is pretty clear, who the agressor is in a situation like this.

How minor in comparison is the uneventful following of an A340 by SU-27 fighters over their own territory.

[JJflyer]

Just a minor correction: Over territory stolen by Soviet Union from Finland.

[Bushfiva]

Over territory stolen by Soviet Union from Finland

Until 1917, you were Russia. Before that, you were Sweden. Hint: if you don't want to cede parts of your country in reparations, don't irritate really big neighbors with policies such as heimosodat.

[JJflyer]

Until 1917 we where a grand duchy under Russia and until that Finland was one country with Sweden. Learn your history and the meaning of heimosota (Tribalwar 1918-1922) as these had nothing to do with Soviet Union invading Finland in 1939. Perhaps Molotov-Ribbentrop accord was the more likely cause. When it comes to irritating Russians, I could not care less. Being big does not give an excuse to be a bully.

Regarding the interception of the A340. It was a regular/Normal mission for the Russians, or so they say. Wether they got excited and went for a closer look of Finnair is another thing or this is a new way to show Russian airpower to foreigners is another. Regardless, they where seen and they went away. No harm done.

[Finn47]

Finland´s pre-1939 borders never went as far east as "half way between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega", so the intercept definitely took place in genuine Russian airspace. Only about one third of Lake Ladoga used to belong to Finland before WW II. See this map, where areas annexed by the USSR after the war are marked in dark green:

http://www.plappi.fi/kunnat/salla/kylatoiminta/lapajarvi/lampela/suomen_kartta_1939/

[VAFFPAX]

And why any P.M. travels on a scheduled flight is also unbelievable, but that is another matter.
Why is that unbelievable? European PMs, senior government officials or even royals are less finicky about flying regular scheduled services. They will generally only fly chartered or private if it is an urgent/short-notice flight, or scheduled services are not direct.

They consider a scheduled flight to be more financially prudent, besides, much of Scandinavia is known to be diplomatically neutral, so there's no reason for them to be concerned. They trust their airlines, as opposed to our government.

S.

[Desert Diner]

I'm suprised no one up to now mentioned KAL 007 :uhoh:

[Molon Labe]

Nobody has mentioned KAL 007 yet because Interflug is still trying to figure out a way to blame that one on the US.

[perceval]

CIA agents on board and MIA cameras in the cargo hold mate . And a bit of alien goo from area 51 as well . Can't blame them really .:E:ok::}

[skallas]

No need blame that one on the US. It just shows what kind of distinguished company US actually joined with IR655.

Remembering everything that Reagan once said about USSR after KAL007, it must surely apply to U.S. at least to the same extent after IR655.

[Interflug]

KAL 007: flying at night hundreds of miles off course for hours over interceptor's territory overflying no-fly zones over strategic military installations. airplane did not react to signal flares.

IR 655: flying in daylight on a published route in a published international corridor still inside home territory.

Both were not positively identified as civilian airliners according to claims by interceptors.

Who likes to compare? ;-)