Range Hawker 800XP

[sander82]

Currently flying a Citation VI. Operating this plane in Asia is sometimes tough with its range. Therefore owner is looking for a plane with more range in the same category. He likes the Hawker 800XP.

Compared to the Citation the Hawker is a few feet longer, same width and height. But range is quoted at around 2400 NM with full pax. That is almost double that of the Citation VI.

Any one out here that could tell the real range of the Hawker 800XP, full passengers? Also is a ferry range realistic of 2800 NM/3000 NM?

Thanks.

[keepin it in trim]

On the Hawker you don't need to give up fuel for payload, so 8 pax and full fuel is not a problem from a 6000 ft runway. However, 8 pax on a hawker is a full cabin, the achilles heel is baggage space. Everything has to go inside, and while it is surprising what you can fit in the internal baggage it can sometimes be a bit limiting.

Range, 2300nm is a realistic max with alternate fuel, for that you might need to go intermediate cruise, however this is not a serious limitation, if you cruise at .75 instead of .78 you will save approx 15% fuel for a time penalty of only 3%.

It is a very tough airplane, generally very reliable, and very nice to fly both for pilot and pax/owner.

Hope the above helps, have a good one:ok:

[westhawk]

I flew the 800XP for a few hundred hours and found it to be an extremely versatile airplane. We normally cruised at .77 Mach, or about 440 KTAS average. At this speed, the practical range starting with 10,000 lbs and 2,000 lbs. fuel remaining at destination would be about 2,000 nm equivalent still air distance (ESAD). The winds aloft may of course affect your altitude and cruise speed selection. A typical hourly fuel burn profile for a nominal 5 hour trip like this would be something very close to the following:

1st hour - 2,000# (FL350-370)
2nd hour - 1,600# (FL370-390
3rd hour - 1,500# (FL380-400)
4th hour - 1,400# (FL390-410)
5th hour - 1,300# (FL400-410 for part of the hour, then descent)

Allowing for APU burn, start/taxi and descent fuel, the above is a ballpark approximation, but fairly reliable for planning purposes. Obviously, any requirement to fly a greater ESAD would require a closer look and may involve reducing both the cruise speed and the planned fuel remaining upon arrival. For an overland flight to a forecast VFR destination, I planned no less than 1,200 lbs. Weather and available suitable alternates often dictated a greater reserve than that.

I did have a few occasions when it was necessary to fly the long range cruise profile of 400 KTAS. My longest flight of this sort was 6 hours 46 minutes and left me with 900 lbs of fuel after shutdown. The APU was not used. I had it planned for 6:36 and 8,600 lbs (plus taxi fuel) to a VFR wx forecast, but of course we ended up with conditions not at all conducive to a visual approach and had fly an extra 10 minutes and 300 lbs to shoot the ILS! According to the flight summary page on the FMS, 2,450 nautical air miles and 2,200 track miles were flown on 8,900 lbs of fuel. The other 200 lbs were used for taxiing.

Flying the long range cruise profile, (pre-US DRVSM) the fuel burn profile looked like this:

1st hour - 1,800# (FL350)
2nd hour - 1,400# (wrong way FL370)
3rd hour - 1,300# (FL390)
4th hour - 1,300# (part of hour wrong way FL410)
5th hour - 1,200# (Fl410)
6th hour - 1,100# (FL410)
.75 of 7th hour - 800# (negotiated late descent, ILS approach and landing)

If circumstances require you to plan for 1,800 - 2,000 lbs fuel or so at destination, 6 hours and about 2,200 nm ESAD is a fairly accurate "off the top of your head" planning maximum. I used Universal W&A for all longer range flights and double checked their data against mine. Their 800XP perf data was usually spot on if you flew the profile accurately. Always better to fly it 5 kts too fast than 5 kts too slow though.

The after market winglet equipped Hawker 800XPs are apparently capable of an additional 150 miles or so from what I hear. I have not yet flown one so equipped myself though.

I hope the above info is useful.

Best regards,

Westhawk

[max.aret]

Just one word on the Hawker: Do not buy it if you frequently fly into icing conditions.

[Alphonse]

Do not buy it if you frequently fly into icing conditions.Why not?? Just make sure you carry some spare TKS with you.

[reynar]

Regarding Max Adet statement,sorry but I would have to strongly disagree, with over 10 year flying the Hawker 700, and 800xp on the east coast of Canada and the U.S. the TKS system has worked very well, the only problems is it is very messy to put into the aircraft, getting the TKS at some FBO's and teaching passengers not to lean up next to the leading edge.

[max.aret]

>> Getting the TKS at some FBOs <<

That is the point, keep in mind that Kazakhstan and Asia is not the same a Canada and the US: they simply do not have TKS there. We had to cancel trips after flying for a couple of days in Russia because we ran out of TKS.

[natops]

in our company we carry spare containers of tks (the non-dangerous goods type) in the cabin, just in case we are going to places where there is no tks.

most of the time it is no problem to get tks.

N.:ok:

[hawker750]

We operate in Europe about 600 hours/year/aircraft and use very little TKS. I have found that crews new to the aircarft think they need to run the TKS every time they go into cloud (even in the cruise!). That is obviously not necessary. Proper use should see annual utilisation at about 250-300 litres per year. One only needs to use the system when one is in ice forming clouds.

As far as range is concerned the best Hawker is still the 800 non XP without reversers. Depending on temp and pax load we get 6.2 - 6.5 hours at 410 Knots landing with 1200 lbs...hard to beat and only cost 1/3 of an 850 XP!! Record is 7 hours and landing with 1000

[Hawkr]

Dang 7 hours? My record is 6:40, and had 1400 left in the tanks after we had a diversion after a pacific crossing. That was in a 800 with AP winglets and TRs.

[sander82]

Thanks for all the replies!

In regard of flying into icing, do you use the TKS system as anti ice and turn it on before entering icing conditions or do you wait till you have ice build up?

Also is anyone flying the Hawker 800XP with the ProLine 21 upgrade?

[hawker4000jet]

i fly a hawker with pro-line 21,great airplane.
you can use the APU in air.
the TKS you use it before enter in ice condition or visible moisture or
temp between -10/+10.
if you want a personal suggestion forget the old 800xp,buy the
hawker 1000 1400lbs more of fuel 3ft longer keeping in the air for more
than 7 hr.the best midsize ever built.

[hawker750]

125-800 Range
Lot of people do not believe what an 800 will do with proper planning, The 7 hours was Morgantown PA to Luton. 3100 nm (did have a good tail wind tho).
Would love to put the wing tips on our 800 but it is an early serial number with a low max zero fuel weight of 17,570 lbs. Hawker will not allow an increase in the MZFW so the 170 odd Lbs the wing tips weigh would cost me a passenger. Surely there is a case for not including the weight of the tips as they do not contribute to wing bending, in fact I would have thought the reverse. Any ideas from people who have a better idea on aero engineering?

PS. Do the tips really make much of a difference?

[Hawkr]

From what I've experienced I don't necessarily agree with the claims that AP says about their extended range. My own personal opinion is that they get the airplane in the upper 30s a bit quicker and therefore that is where the fuel savings come in. From flying 2 identical airplanes with and without the winglets I don't see a reduced engine setting for the same airspeed. I don't know what the cost of them are, but I think you have to fly the airplane for a long time to see the cost benefit. Again this is purely speculative and I'd like to hear some other thoughts on them as well. But I will say this, the TR's are an absolute waste. The lift dump does a more than adequate job of stopping the aircraft and for the amount that they weigh, is just a silly addition in my opinion.

edit: oh and as far as TKS goes, if you're using it anytime you fly into visible moisture below 10C you're going to run out very quickly so I don't recommend that procedure. After flying the airplane a while you learn when you really need to use it. It does a fabulous job of keeping ice off but as previously posted it is quite hard to find sometimes. We carry an extra bottle or two in the baggage on all of our trips (since we go all over the globe with the plane)

[hawker750]

Hawkr
Thanks your input regarding the winglets, you have rather confirmed my suspicions that they have more a "visual" effect than an aerodynamic one. Anybody out there with any other views on them?

Yes the TKS does do a good job, more fuel efficient than a bleed system

[hawker4000jet]

i'm not completely agree. i fly an 2005 hawker 800xpi proline21 with AP winglet.
this are the benefit 1)climb direct to FL400 or FL 410 2)fuel saving 7%
starting after 3 hr in the air 3)increase of the second segment of 1100lbs
and 4)increase of crosswind component from 30kt to 34 kt.
maybe you don't need the extra 180nm in range all the time,but in a 1000nm trip you really see the differents in fuel burn.

[Trinizuelan]

Planning to fly Gander (YQX) to Paris (LBG), at 2200 nm it's inside the specs, any recommendations?

[hawker750]

Gander to Paris?
Give a Hawker a better test than that. Fuel more expensive in Gander than Paris so nice thing is that you would not need full tanks ex Gander.
Just run it on our Jep Jet Plan for March historical winds:
Great Circle: 2200 nm
Track Miles 2221 nm
Flight time: 5 h 04 minutes
Speed Mach .74
Payload: 4 pax + hostie
Fuel required ex Gander 8840 lbs (Max 10,000) Full JAR ops reserves.
That is for a bog standard 800B no reverse no winglets. Average fuel burn 1481 lbs/hr. Pretty good for an old banger!
The 800B is good for 2500 nm still air as long as alternate is reasonable close. We do that on a regular basis, further if the conditions are right

[Prince737]

Hello Guys, i wana go for HS125-850XP type, any body with useful tips or have an idea where i can get the soft copy of the system and operating manuals or any CBT for this aircraft? this is to enable me prepare ahead of time. appreciate any help. thanks.

[RFGN]

You may use this link; Plane Raytheon HAWKER-800 (http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/RAYTHEON-HAWKER/HAWKER-800.html)

Good luck.

[HS125]

Dang 7 hours? My record is 6:40

My sentiments exactly! :eek: Mine is 6:24

Some top tips with the TKS are:

1. Carry the non hazmat fluid on the aircraft.

2. Prime the system regularly, even if your always in hot weather - not doing this will cost a not so small fortune

3. Conserve fluid by making sure the timer doesn't switch off, that way it wont go back in to the high speed mode when you turn it back on.

4. Call up Tron and get one of the pumps to replenish it with the large capacity containers - IIRC when the gauge says it's full you can get a further 10 strokes on the pump into it without it overflowing, do that every time you come home and you'll be saving a lot.

5. Experiment with different sized drinking water bottles (like Evian) some of them will screw into the TKS filler neck when empty, get one of those and cut the bottle in half, Now you have a funnel that holds the little anti-spill flap down and is held rigidly in place on the occasions you have to pour fluid in. Assuming you drank the water it's free too!

I once landed at LSZH and found a situation where the aircraft rapidly accumulated MASSIVE chunks of ice even with the system operating normally, Thankfully, and although I wouldn't wish to repeat the experience the bird flew just fine - I still wish I had a camera on me that day!

[westhawk]

2. Prime the system regularly, even if your always in hot weather - not doing this will cost a not so small fortune

The importance of following this practice cannot be over-emphasized!

Before I flew Hawkers, I worked on them as an A&P mechanic at a service center. Customers who ran their TKS system regularly avoided allot of expensive man-hours spent finding and fixing leaks, making panels flow again and addressing corrosion caused by the leaks. A properly accomplished R&R of a wing leading edge alone will cost enough at a typical mx shop to buy a pretty big supply of fluid, maybe even enough to get to that next 48 month inspection. And the L/E has to be removed whenever cleaning won't get an individual panel to flow fluid. Running the pump a couple of minutes per flight and regularly cleaning the panels with warm soap and water and a soft brush followed by a good rinse and running the pump some more keeps the panels flowing well. Regular use also keeps all the seals and plastic fluid lines wetted and pliable, reducing the incidence of leaks.

Long trips away from home base can indeed be problematic due to the limited availability of fluid in many places. Carrying enough with you can be a challenge too, especially given the rather limited storage area on the airplane. But then, determined Hawker pilots always seem to find ways to carry more stuff on the plane.

I once landed at LSZH and found a situation where the aircraft rapidly accumulated MASSIVE chunks of ice even with the system operating normally

Yeah, I always wondered how much the flying qualities would be affected in heavy ice. I always ran the pump descending into the clouds as a matter of course and never did see much ice, even with a cold soaked plane and heavy cloud near 0 deg C. The AFM speed additives for operation in icing conditions always impressed me enough to run the pump during descent and hope that would keep the wings free of ice as much as possible. Being as I never saw and big ice shapes on the L/Es even with the ice detector indicating ice, it seems to work just fine. If I ever felt concerned about anything, it was what I couldn't see, the tail. Especially after seeing that very interesting twin otter icing test video by NASA at recurrent.

I had allot of good trips in Hawkers and miss flying them. In so many ways it's a well engineered and reliable beast. The quaint and somewhat anachronistic mechanical marvels of British engineering that comprise many of the airplane's systems are one of the reasons I so like the airplane! So they're a bit slow, but at least they descend and slow down like no other! Though I'd prefer not to make 6.8 hour flights (my longest and most tedious) in the Hawker very often, having that capability in an airplane of this class is impressive. Not bad for a plane that's been around since 1962.

You guys still flying them enjoy your time!

westhawk

[Trinizuelan]

Many thanks!, but how about Paris - Gander?
It's a 800XP w/reversers, 2 pax, leaving next week!

[Prince737]

Hello Guys, i'm going for type on Hs125-800XP, any tips out there from those of you who have flown it will help. thanks

[Prince737]

I wana thank you guys for your assistance, the links really helped,God bless u guys.