Tulla to go Cat 3

[preset]

From the Age
Flying blind - how to land in fog

1. Under a category III rating, which allows planes to land in fog, the control tower communicates with the pilot to direct the plane down where the pilot has no visibility.
2. A software program is used as well to locate the plane and direct it towards the runway.
3. On the ground high intensity lighting along the centre line of the runway also needs to be fitted.

What has the control tower got to do with it that's any different from any other approach ?

[slice]

The **** that wrote that article is getting things confused. Cat III mixed up with Ground Controlled Approach using Precision approach Radar (RAAF might still do these?). Runway centreline lighting and HIALS (the christmas tree setup at the approach threshhold)

[ShockWave]

They would also need to improve the taxiway lighting and guidance system for CatIII ops. They would also need some ATC management system for control of aircraft on the ground. It is easy enough to land in CatIII conditions but getting to and from the runway to the terminal safely can be a bigger problem to solve.

[Server too busy]

Would that mean that Approach bans will have to be introduced as well?

[Capt Fathom]

They would also need some ATC management system for control of aircraft on the ground. It is easy enough to land in CatIII conditions but getting to and from the runway to the terminal safely can be a bigger problem to solve

There is nothing ATC can do to get you to the gate! They will not give you step by step guidance in Low Vis!

You are on your own I would suggest. Hence the min vis requirements for landing. You can land in zero vis., but you can't taxi!

[RodH]

Some years ago I was part of an A310 that made several Cat111 landings in Luton in the UK over several weeks due to fog .
Taxiing was no problem , the tower sent out a follow me vehicle which guided us to the terminal.
Sure it was slow and we had to wait on the runway for a few minutes but there was no other traffic as not many aircraft were Cat111 authorised nor had Cat111 qualified crew .
We were all Airbus Industrie Flight Instructors so were Cat111 qualifed all of the time as we used to do Crew Qualification check rides and our own recency approaches in the Airbus Sim very often .
It was very exciting doing the first couple of landings and when one eventually sees the white runway lights on either side of the aircraft one starts to relax as you know you are in the middle of the runway at least.
The tower had very little to do with any of it , apart from sending out the follow me vehicle and the usual radio calls .
Very interesting flying.
It would only really be usefull here in Oz for international operators who have regularly qualified crew for Cat 111 , most operators in OZ would find it far too expensive to keep crew qualified for the few times they need it .
Rod H

[Kiwiconehead]

The main issue in MEL is not pea soup zero vis weather (except the rare occasion) but conditions less than the CATI ILS minimums.

Even CATII minimums would get you by pretty much all the time.

[worked to death]

with ground operations monitored by dedicated radar, and centre line lighting segments switched on/off for individual guidance, navigation at least to the apron, isn't too much of a problem.

I think we needed 3 auto lands a month on line for currency. With a minimum of 2 failures practiced from a reposition to 8 miles in the simulator, recurrency training took minimal time.

I suppose the question is: are the number of fog days increasing enough to warrant real LVP introduction, or are we going to stay cat 1 in the 21st century?

[Capt Wally]

What has the control tower got to do with this one may ask? EVERYTHING as without it cat 3 or no cat 3 you can't land!:ok:

That's true Capt fath, you can land in zero/zero but after that? good luck!
And 'follow me' cars wouldn't work here in Oz 'cause those guys would just take you straight to the pub, not a bad idea anyway!:E




CW

[ACMS]

I did my first Cat3B landing at LHR about 12 years ago. Australia really does need to catch up. Since then I've done about 5 more in real low vis. taxiing in is the hardest bit. bring on the Class 3 EFB with the moving taxi map:ok: then it would be a lot easier.

[Flying Spag Monster]

I would guess, that with the arrival of 380s in the not to distant future, international airlines are putting pressure on the authorites to increase the landing capability beyond Cat 1. The ability of alternates to handle a large number of non-res pax and the associated cost to airlines (without crew to repositon etc) would probably be the driver on this issue. About time really.

[Stationair8]

Valid comment on the A380 diversions, two or three A380 diversions to another airport ie Sydney would certainly cramp the tarmac space and overload the passenger terminals quite quickly.

[Lasiorhinus]

But think of the profits Macquarie Bank would make, from their $32.50 per unexpected passenger, from three A380 diversions!:}

[clark y]

Couple of quick questions about Tulla and this RUMOUR.
1. Is that row of big black boxes (Look like big square pot plant boxes) at the top end of the 16 HIALS part of a lighting upgrade? Form work for concrete perhaps.
2. Is the radar mast just to the north-west of the intersection ( up against the trees, not the one near the F28 fuselage) a surface radar?

Clark Y.

[Server too busy]

Is that row of big black boxes (Look like big square pot plant boxes) at the top end of the 16 HIALS part of a lighting upgrade? Form work for concrete perhaps.


Have a look at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=326906. There is still speculation as to what it really is

[bluerider777]

Not sure about the lighting upgrade, but Surface Movement Radar is due to come online shortly. Tower training soon, last I heard for mid year go.

Those rumours came a while ago so someone more up to date may post better info.

The SMR update is for the ILS CAT upgrade.

Blue

[aussiegal]

Melb due to get ground radar later this year, and yes the radar referred to by an earlier post is for that. Syd is the only place in Oz that has ground radar, and since that needed replacing the powers that be decided to buy three, so Syd, Melb, Bn are all due to have that installed and operational sometime this year.

Some taxiways are being upgraded for the increased lighting requirements assoc with Cat III, hence some of the zig zag taxi instructions due to short term closures for that work to occur (aside from the permanent closure of part of Sierra for the Intl Term expansion and of course the inevitable stand off parking for the intl's on the busy days).

I think the black boxes at the threshold Rwy 16 are some kind of noise monitoring thing, i did get told but the info went into the oh, whatever file.

[blue belly]

are qantas pilots cat III qualified?? To operate to a cat III minimum regular training is required and additional acft checks

[Keg]

Not sure about the 737 drivers but all QF 767, 744, A330 and A380 pilots are low viz qualified and current if the skipper has autolanded within the past 35 days. We have low viz approaches as part of our recurrent sim 'training'.

All the aircraft are maintained to the required standard- most days- and autolands carried out by aircraft on approved runways using low viz procedures at least once every rolling 35 days.

[Going Boeing]

are qantas pilots cat III qualified?? To operate to a cat III minimum regular training is required and additional acft checks

Yes, since the early 1980's and every sim session requires Captains and F/O's to carry out Low Vis renewals/recency. The aircraft have to have at least one autoland every 45 days otherwise Engineering have to do additional checks.

Melbournes Cat III lighting upgrade will not only be for ILS Low Vis approaches but also for GBAS assisted GPS Low Vis approaches. QF B738's (& in the future, A380's, B787's) are fitted for these approaches and have been doing trials into Sydney in conjunction with Air Services and several other parties (GBAS aerials are sited just east of the 34L threshold). GBAS installation at MEL would also allow GPS approaches to lower minimums at other airports in the area - ie well equipped business jets operating into Essendon would benefit once the approaches have the necessary approval.

[Capt_SNAFU]

QF 737 crew are low viz qualified. The jet has been approved for Cat II ops.

[woftam]

QF 737 crews have also been trained in low vis T/Offs to 75m and hand flown CatIII approaches using the HUD but the regulators are dragging the chain.

[Capt Fathom]

autolands carried out by aircraft on approved runways using low viz procedures at least once every rolling 35 days

The aircraft have to have at least one autoland every 45 days

Any advance on 35 or 45 days .... :}

[blueloo]

From ze book:

"the autoland facility must be exercised at least once every 45
days"

[clark y]

Thanks for the answer about the radar and the link to those black boxes at the end of the runway.

In this technological age, how expensive would it be to maintain a CATIII system? Surely alot of equipment these days has built in test facilities. With flight testing, it used to be done in an F28 now a king air. Surely it could be done in a turboprop single. Wouldn't even have to be pressurised.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Different days for different aircraft types. Different days for aircraft and pilots too.

[Keg]

Any advance on 35 or 45 days ....

Oops. Typo on my part. Sorry about that! :O

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Keg,

You must be referring to Boeing trash :}

We're told that our A330s continue their currency and approval on the basis of Bite tests conducted regularly by the engineering types.

Those of us up the front have to do a practise one only every 90 days.

Every 35 days for someone on the 744 would effectively mean every fourth landing would have to be an autoland - bugger! All the fun's been taken out of the job...

Come across from the dark side :ok:

[Keg]

Come across from the dark side

I'm like Luke Skywalker. I can't be seduced by the dark side! :}

I figure I've spent so many years bagging Airbus philosophy that I can't reasonably bid to go to it now. If QF ends up going all Airbus one day I'll take great pride in being the last Boeing pilot.....as long as I outlast Going Boeing! :ok:

[Going Boeing]

Hey Keg, as you know, I'll be retired well before you so you will outlast me.

As for
Those of us up the front have to do a practise one only every 90 days.

RAD_ALT_ALIVE, my understanding is that you Hyundai drivers never really fly the aircraft - effectively the aircraft does every landing thus you don't need to practice autolands as often as us "big balled" Boeing pilots. Airbus designed their aircraft to be difficult to hand fly so even those who wish to maintain their flying skills end up leaving it to full automatics. It's all part of their dastardly plan to design pilots out of aeroplanes - that's what CEO's like Darth (Dark Side) Dixon want. :ok:

[aussiegal]

Amend my previous re black boxes in melb, they measure wake turb for departures.