PM vows to 'reward' forces

[JackRyan]

LATEST: PM vows to 'reward' forces after Army chief calls for more money for them. More soon. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/default.stm)

Is everyone excited?

[Laird 'o' Balmullo]

another tiny tax rebate on the way then!

[ZH875]

Or as Gordo the Tax Thief states:

He said a White Paper would set out the help available to troops in areas such as health care and education.

So make of that what you will.

[Gainesy]

More likely a "Day Off" so you can have some pointless parade with all the BS nause and extra work involved. Good for morale, doncha know?

Dannet appears to have selected his TOT nicely though.:ok:

[skippedonce]

Mr Brown said: "I recognise the huge contribution that our armed forces make to the security of the country and we will continue to try to reward our armed forces for the dedication and commitment they show, often in very difficult theatres of war.

So no actual comitment to do anything at all then.:ugh:

[Gainesy]

Original interview in the Currant:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/article1247731.ece

[L J R]

Quote:
The Ministry of Defence said pay was only one element of a soldiers' salary, which includes allowances for housing, food, tax relief and schooling.


I don't get an allowance for House, Education, food etc, so can I have it in cash then please sir! And could someone tell me the tax relief that is quoted there??

[Stuff]

The MOD's breakdown of pay shown here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7437014.stm is very misleading.

For a start they cannot claim that education allowance forms part of basic pay can they?! The £2175 seems suspiciously like a higher tier ELC claim and an SLC claim. For a start the private needs to do 8 years service to be able to clai ma higher tier ELC and even then they can only claim it 3 times so hardly equivalent to basic pay.

Are they also really claiming that forces accommodation in its current state is a benefit worth £425.83? Its scandalous they even charge for some of it.

The main problem with low pay and lots of allowances bolted on is that none of the allowances are pensionable nor can they be used to base a mortgage application on. Hardly the basis of a long-term retention strategy.

[South Bound]

I do like the benefits calculator that attempts to demonstrate that one would need to earn shed-loads more outside based on contributions to pensions, accommodation subsidies etc. Kind of important for people to understand how their lifestyles are being subsidised and quite responsible in that respect.

Think it is a little misleading to add in gym membership as a benefit though!

MoD can talk till it is blue in the face about what a great package it provides. Only retention will answer whether the competitive/great package is enough for people to want to do the job that goes with it.

[dessert_flyer]

Well at least we get a round bit of tin on a ribbon to thank us for our stirling efforts, makes it all worth while, proud to serve, i mean, what more could a man/woman ask for!

[OCDave]

Mr Brown said: "I recognise the huge contribution that our armed forces make to the security of the country and we will continue to try to reward our armed forces for the dedication and commitment they show, often in very difficult theatres of war.

Trying is the first step towards failure.:E

[Biggus]

As I get older and older I get more and more angry at being lied to by MPs (I know they all do it!), I presume it is largely a case of ....'how stupid do they think I am'....

Anyway, to my point. The BBC site quotes (I can only assume the quote is correct, which may be a dangerous assumption!) Derek Twigg as saying '.... we have an independent pay review body....'. Well, I for one don't consider it to be independent.

http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/afprb_report_2008.pdf

Look at page iii, terms of reference:

In reaching its recommendations, the Review Body is to have regard to the following considerations:
• the need to recruit, retain and motivate suitably able and qualified people taking
account of the particular circumstances of Service life;
• Government policies for improving public services, including the requirement on the
Ministry of Defence to meet the output targets for the delivery of departmental
services;
• the funds available to the Ministry of Defence as set out in the Government’s
departmental expenditure limits; and
• the Government’s inflation target.

To me the last two points destroy any vestage of independence. They basically say in reaching your conclusion take into account how much money the MOD has, and the governments inflation target (2%). So how are they going to recommend anything much more than 2%, say 5% across the board? (in the end it was 2.6%, with an extra 1% snuck in the back door by way of the X-factor).

[VinRouge]

CPI is currently much higher than 2% anyway... whats the bet the ONS fudge the figures the month the Civil sector wage settlements are due?

With inflation heading upwards, I am betting that the ONS are going to have lots of pressure to fudge... The government desperately need rate cuts which Merv and the BOE will not deliver until the inflation threat has passed.

BEsides, wages should be settled using RPI. I cant remember the last time I snacked on a widescreen tv or filled my car up using an Ipod... CPI seems to be a false measure that suits this corrupt government. :mad:

[JackRyan]

Salary at age 18: £16,227
Operational Allowance: (182 days) £2,380.56 (during six month tour of Afghanistan)
Longer Separation Allowance: (182 days) £1,132.04
Other perks including dental care and free eye tests: £510
Financial assistance for learning costs: £2,175
Subsidised living accommodation: £425.83
Estimated annual employers' pension contribution: £3,148.04
Total: £25,998.47

What really grips my sheet about this calculation is that it's based on newly in private getting shot at in the sandpit (for 182 days per year). Is he really making use of his £2175 financial assistance for learning costs out in the Stan? And the subsidised living accommodation? How much does a tent cost per month? They're effectively listing the financial benefits of wartime and peacetime concurrently.

[Biggus]

When he is not deployed he doesn't get OA or LSA, so that is £3,500 down.

The 'pension contribution' is also not available for the individual to spend, another £3,000 odd down, and presumably is only really effective if sufficient time is served to acrue a pension on leaving, as opposed to a preserved pension at 65?

[Beatriz Fontana]

Don't tell me. Brown is launching a review... which won't report before the next election campaign when, magically, a decision will be made along the lines of "vote for me, I'll give the forces a pay rise!"

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Melchett01]

If you want a contrast use the the private sector (90 percent of the economy). The majority of which no longer get yearly inflation linked pay rises, don't have pay review bodies and no longer know what the word pension means.

And neither do they put their lives on the line repeatedly, come under fire on regular occassions, see their mates torn apart in road side IED attacks and come back from 4 months away a jibbering wreck having been IDF'd to within an inch of their life every day.

Whilst on paper, there are elements of the service package that appear to stack up against what is on offer in civvie street, you really need to take into account what the forces go through in order to get the paltry offerings from a govt who is so dishonest they will even try and spin their way out of trouble by being misleading about those putting their lives on the line for their policies :\

[KeepItTidy]

Salary at age 18: £16,227
Operational Allowance: (182 days) £2,380.56 (during six month tour of Afghanistan)
Longer Separation Allowance: (182 days) £1,132.04
Other perks including dental care and free eye tests: £510
Financial assistance for learning costs: £2,175
Subsidised living accommodation: £425.83
Estimated annual employers' pension contribution: £3,148.04
Total: £25,998.47


Agree 100% with JackRyan, this is all spin and made to think soldiers are doing ok and its not, Dental care and eye tests thats bull**** utter bullcrap, Learning costs , nobody can take advantage of these benefits as there are no free days off to go study , OA and LSA are a benefit if you are out of the country for 182 days , thats a crap price to pay for giving up 6 months away from family for an extra 3.4 k per year , they make it sound like they are giving too much to the lads who sacrafice there live every day. I hope the press mention these facts before they make the public think they are getting a good deal

rant over :oh:

[FFP]

OA to go and tax free in theatre I heard.......

[KeepItTidy]

Well from our pay boys a few months back they will definatlely not do tax free, its something to do with some rule or some crap they cannot do tax free for a good reason. I think its crap but hey ho im only at the bottom end

[L J R]

....like tax free wage on Det, and stop the Bulls*t about 'package' wage. No-one really counts Gym membership as salary, just as so called reduced housing as a 'benefit'. Now it would be a benefit if the housing had the same 'conditions' as a 'normal' rented tennant - ie call to plumber gets tradesman on time with 'comeback' if the job is shoddy...etc


...anyway, back to being shot at......



...actually why should I continue to get shot at, I think I will go to the public sector and pay for my dentist, beats comming home in a C-17 under a flag.


..no disrespect intended to my brethren who have .

[ImageGear]

Agree 100% with JackRyan, this is all spin and made to think soldiers are doing ok and its not

Labour have been voted in by the vast majority of this country for years on a platform of tax and spend - ie. we get taxed, they spend. Everyone knew what was coming..wake up smell the coffee, the country is virtually bankrupt, mealie-mouthed words from "the tax thief" mean zilch.

The forces have been run down to the bone, and it's developing osteoporosis.

[Biggus]

ImageGear

For what it is worth, Labour were not voted in "by the vast majority of this country"!

It was in the region of 34-38% last time (can't remember exactly, I think it was 34%), and that was the lowest % vote for a government in years. For what it is worth, any party that gets 40% of the vote will be the next government, because we have a first past the post system, and generally 3 parties competing which splits the vote.

Sorry if I have diverted off track slightly......back to the mainstream of the thread!

[WorkingHard]

You should listen to The Old Fat One, he is making a lot of sense. I have no idea what is the "right" amount for any rank in the services but I do know you cannot compare it with life outside. Why not quote the GROSS ANNUAL pay of a middle ranking officer and compare that with the wonderful world of civilian life where EVERYTHING you want has to be paid for out of your taxed income? Yes everything - work clothes, pensions, training, education, health care, no job security, etc etc. It is not all a bed of roses on the other side. Can some kind soul tell us then what you would expect an RAF Flt.Lt to earn gross with or without flying pay as an example and then perhaps we can get a measure of how much more needs to be paid.
Does anyone have any idea of the costs from the budget of pensions and retired pay? It may surprise you how much of the budget goes on that.
What about everyone being responsible for cutting out waste and any savings added to pay and allowances. Who was responsible for buying unuseable Chinooks for example and do they still have a job? In the civilian world such a monumental cock up would have led to instant dismissal and possibly other implications. At the very least you people in theatre could well do with them to use and yet it has only just surfaced. Explain who was responsible and how you stop it happening again and again and again. Then you would (I hope) get better equipment and more money out of the budget for direct pay etc.
I support all of you but you need to get real as well.

[The Helpful Stacker]

In the civilian world such a monumental cock up would have led to instant dismissal and possibly other implications.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there.

In the civilian sector at a level where you would be making purchase decisions involving such large amounts of money as in the Chinook fiasco you are pretty much well looked after whatever happens. Do well and you get a nice big bonus, do poorly and you get a nice big severance payment.

Since I left the RAF last year I've been working for the worlds largest logistics company and in that time one huge cock-up I've seen (resulting in half a million being spent on an unusable white elephant of a system) actually led to the culprit being promoted to get them away from the scene of their crime.:ugh:

[stickmonkeytamer]

Since I left the RAF last year I've been working for the worlds largest logistics company and in that time one huge cock-up I've seen (resulting in half a million being spent on an unusable white elephant of a system) actually led to the culprit being promoted to get them away from the scene of their crime.

Has your company bought JPA?? ;)

SMT

[The Helpful Stacker]

Not yet.

If you see little yellow vans with red writing on them appearing on RAF stations you'll know its only a matter of time.;)

[pjhz50]

I don't think for a minute that either of you has quite picked up the point here. No-one thinks life in civvie street is easier nor are the streets paved with gold.
I think what serving members of HM Forces (and their families :ok:)are trying to highlight is that under the Military Covemant the Government and subjects of Her Majesty ask these men and women to risk their lives. Regularly. Which they do in War and in training. Young men and women are gladly serving their country at the risk that they will not return, experience horrfic events or see close friends and colleagues die.
I think for this they deserve to be financially secure for the rest of their lives.
Contrary to popular public opinion, we do not get free housing, we get no more free healthcare than you do (I have to pay for my dentistry), we get no choice regarding the house we live in or it's location (how many civvies would allow a private letting company to dictate to them where to live despite paying rent for the property). We can be told to move with as little as six weeks notice with no chance of getting our chidren into the local school. Spouses have to give up well paid jobs with Life Insurance and Pensions to follow the serving spouse to keep the family together. I could recount toe-curling tales of how badly I and others have been treated when things have gone wrong. We move so often it is not viable to buy our own home and so are now priced out of the ludicrous UK housing market. My spouses specialist pay is not pensionable, so his final pension given his job is laughable. They have no right to strike and no union representation. What would YOU need to be paid to put up with this and protect your country and her allies?
So I shall pre-empt what I guess will be your response - 'You knew the score when you joined'. EXACTLY. Given these frankly ludicrous conditions of employment, men and women STILL take on this role and are willing to die in order to protect you and yours. Don't they deserve the very best of your Governments care and your gratitude for what they do in your name? If ever the world descends into war again, it's people like this that stand between you, your freedom and some tyrant. I hope sir that you never need them :(
I'm proud to be married to a serving member, and proud to count so many others doing this job as my friends. :D

[Roland Pulfrew]

Why not quote the GROSS ANNUAL pay of a middle ranking officer and compare that with the wonderful world of civilian life where EVERYTHING you want has to be paid for out of your taxed income? Yes everything - work clothes, pensions, training, education, health care, no job security, etc etc. It is not all a bed of roses on the other side.

Workinghard

Too simplistic I am afraid. I can pick holes in your statement straight away. Work clothes - there are lots of companies out there that provide working clothes. Pensions - agree if it is contributory or private pension scheme. Training - lots of companies still provide training, particularly if keen on IIP. Education - all free to everyone if you use the state system. Health care - all free if you use the NHS. No job security - also more true of the armed forces now than it used to be.

Can some kind soul tell us then what you would expect an RAF Flt.Lt to earn gross with or without flying pay as an example and then perhaps we can get a measure of how much more needs to be paid.

I am not convinced that it is all about pay. It is just as much, if not more, about the erosion in standards of everything else to do with military life. Married quarters used to be reasonably well maintained and the rent was not aimed at being "market comparable". Health and dental care used to be available for you and your family, on base. Military hospitals looked after military personnel first and used spare capacity to support the NHS, not vice versa. Silly hoops were not there for jumping through - IIP anyone? Maintenance of the working environment was carried out relatively quickly and infrastructure was not allowed to deteriorate because the leaky roof was only cat B not cat A. Stations had telephone operators who knew the station environment not contractors who didn't have a clue. Say As You Starve was not the mantra and military chefs provided good food in the messes (stations even tried to win the catering competition to prove they provided the best). Dining-In nights were not driven by the overtime budget. Military personnel maintained aircraft to the best standard not to what it says in the contractor's contract. Buildings were not bulldozed and equipment sold off because there was a RAB 'cost of capital' and 'depreciation' charge on them. Limited infrastructure maintenance money was not wasted on putting disabled ramps into every building on base. Business speak was left to profit-making businesses not on the non-profit armed forces. :(

Fix some of these and you may be on the way to redressing the balance.

[8-15fromOdium]

In the civilian world such a monumental cock up would have led to instant dismissal and possibly other implications.


Working Hard, I take it you mean the banking sector, which the Government has contrived to prop up for the past decade and now throws another £200bn down its gullet to support its failure. That's the sort of failure I like.:ugh:

I agree there should be sackings for failure, but don't try and make out the civilian world is any better than the military. Let's face it most of the equipment overspends are down to civilian companies not being up to the job, and the military having to plough on through political expediency.

Also, if anyone thinks this will be any different under the Tories I'm afraid you live in cloud cuckoo land - look how quiet they are being on this subject, let's hear what Liam Fox and Dave C propose.

[Doctor Cruces]

Gordo and Swiss Des will run down the forces pay to minimum sustainable to be able to keep people in this financially strapped time. When there is not much out there and bad financial times in civvy street, they figure there will not be a retention or recruitment problem.

They say they can't afford to give government employees any more than 2 % rise but they can afford 112 million or so in order to let pensioners swim for free, wonder when they will remove their heads from up their rses?

Glad I'm out.

Doc C

:mad::mad:

[cornish-stormrider]

Gents there is good and bad on the outside, My quality of life is waaaaay up on where it was when I was in. OK I have a higher stress level now but I have a lovely wife and a nice home to live in......

The only thing I had then but don't now was Dental Care, If you loosely call it that. Private is much better than those butchers

[Tricorn]

Small point - but since when has an RAF gymnasium compared to a civilian gym (and I have been members of both)?

Last time I looked our RAF gym wasn't air-conditioned, didn't have lockable lockers, not enough machines to go around and they lacked flat screen TVs with personal headsets. I won't even go into the lack of a pool, refreshments, state of the showers etc.

[exscribbler]

Say what you like, how you like and when you like but this is still Jam Tomorrow which is how this lot operate - unless it's anything to do with MPs' allowances and expenses when it's instant. :}

[8-15fromOdium]

Following on from ExScribbler, I picked this up from the Goat:


We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to lead all MP's in rejecting both a £15,000 pay rise and an unaccountable £23,000 grant. Further we the undersigned pledge to reject at the Polls every sitting MP who votes in favour of such measures. More details (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/nomoreofourmoney/#detail)


Link is: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/nomoreofourmoney/

[Shadwell the old]

Using the figures provided by Jack Ryan, everyone gets benefits that cost the MOD approx £9700 per year. The answer is, stop all the benefits, no more pensions, no more gyms, no more op allowances, no more subsidised accommodation and food and give everyone in the armed forces regardless of rank a pay rise of £9700 per year. This is totally affordable as it is self financing.

If the MOD figures are correct, this would SAVE the Government money, because they would reap 20% (or 40%) tax plus National insurance on the extra pay, they would not have to maintain MQs (or whatever they are called this week), there would be no need to supply food (other than on Ops) and the savings on pensions to the Defence budget would be huge.

Individuals would be up to £6000 per year net better off. Adding those accommodation and food costs already incurred, you could rent a reasonable place, get good dental care a gym membership and a higher quality of life with the extra income.

Will it happen? I have more chance of a threesome with Keira Knightley and Julia Roberts!

Such a suggestion (the extra money not my threesome), would expose the hypocrisy of this bankrupt (morally) government, and would rubbish they claims that the armed forces cost them such huge amounts of money.

Shadwell

[pjhz50]

I dont think I saw anything that wasn't there.And I don't wish to assume that you are Mr Uninformed Civvy with an axe to grind. And this was also a reply to Working Hard. I was merely pointing out that the benefits that are given are the very least that should be offered. Dental care is not given to serving members out of the goodness of the MODs heart - can't fight/fly with toothache can you? And as an ex-NHS employee I was on a final salary pension considerably better than that my spouse has at the moment. So to say when we get out it will all end I say thank heaven to the durge that WILL end. It isn't just about pay - it's quality of life for a young family now - we have to make so many compromises and that should be recognised. I'd rather be on an MPs salary with his/her huge allowance package thank you. And no threat of being blown out of the sky.
Why is it when nurses and firemen complain they get full support yet get paid more? And it isn't just lower ranks who should receive a pay increase. Look at the lovely new accom. blocks they are all receiving and look at the state of Sgts/Wo Messes across the board. You wouldn't put prisoners in most of them.The Government will spin this so that Joe Public thinks poor Tommy is getting a better deal. He won't. They will give with one hand and take away with another.
I have worked in the Public Secor for Governement bodies nearly all my professional life. It is sad when I feel I got a better deal. Wish I was an SCE teacher in Germany. They get paid more than most serving NCOs and get their housing free. Wish Joe Public knew about that one.:confused:

[N Joe]

So much for "Other perks including dental care and free eye tests: £510"

I wasn't overly impressed with the dental care last time I went to an RAF dental centre. When I asked about a "scale and polish", I was told that the shortage of dentists/dental technicians meant they did no "preventative" work. Whilst I now have to pay for dental care, I have whatever treatment I want/need whenever is most convenient for me.

My new employer also provides free eye tests - I think it's mandatory under Health and Safety for employers to provide tests for computer-users.

And if you want an idea of how much RAF gym-membership is worth, I paid £50 per year when I joined an RAF Stn gym as a civvy.

N Joe

[JackRyan]

WorkingHard Can some kind soul tell us then what you would expect an RAF Flt.Lt to earn gross with or without flying pay as an example and then perhaps we can get a measure of how much more needs to be paid.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/frontline/2079892/Soldiers-could-get-pay-rise-after-General-Sir-Richard-Dannatt-intervenes.html

Soldiers in basic training are paid £12,572 a year, while traffic wardens receive a basic starting salary of around £17,000. More than 20,000 personnel left the Forces last year, many citing the poor salary as their reason.
The Ministry of Defence says that after recent pay rises, most fully-trained soldiers are now paid more than £16,000 and bonuses for serving on the front line in Iraq and Afghanistan can take a private's salary to £22,000.
But Gen Dannatt insisted that more money was needed.


I'm sure most on this board have got two stripes / three pips of some variety and colour, and a set of wings. I'd suggest that although we don't receive civilian levels of pay, it's not too bad and I'm certainly not complaining about myself. I didn't join to get rich (and it certainly isn't happening). What I do wish to complain about is the £12000 starting salary for the privates. Did the Rt Hon Des Browne watch Ross Kemp in Afghanistan? Of course, he was probably putting his secondary duty of the MOD to one side whilst concentrating on his far more important and primary role of being Secretary of State for Scotland.

Nevermind me, £12000 doesn't do our lads justice. I hope you agree.

[cockanelli]

I do feel as though this 'benefits' package is over-inflated. For example, the price I pay for my Quarter is about market rate. Nobody in civvie street would pay any more for this wreck(and thats before DHE/MHS are brought into the equation). The gyms on the previous 3 stations I've been on have been just about adequate but certainly not of the JJB/ David Lloyd etc standard. Most civvie compabies offer private health care for their employees and their families. All this and as everyone keeps saying, the civvie doesn't have to do lots of time away from home and get shot at!

[WorkingHard]

TOFO put it quite correctly. How about 3% rise in pay and allowances but all for the lower ranks so that a private/airman gets a big increase and then tapering off to nothing by the rank of WO? Good idea for recruitment? Commissioned ranks only for lowest 2/3 ranks and chnage T&C so that all have the same age/length of service to qualify for pension/retired pay.

[HeartofBlackburn]

Dental care is not a perk of the job. Medical and dental fitness is a requirement for us to be able to fulfill our task, thus in my view free dental is the least we should expect. I would also point out that as a serviceman who has actually moved around, the cost to myself having to pay private dental care for my wife and children because we can never find a NHS dentist more than penalises me for the small amount of dental care that I require.

[newbiep]

One point most people seem to have missed is that "benefits" such as use of gym, free healthcare, dental and eyecare are not primarily designed to benefit the individual they are there because the Service requires that we are fit enough to deploy.
It would be nice to think they were available purely because they would be useful, but if that were the case then spouses/dependants would be entitled to the same healthcare/dental.
The reality however is keep a serviceperson fit and well you can use them as you see fit, hence the investment is neccessary.

[cockanelli]

TOFO, Sorry to go off topic from the thread but most reasonable size companies do offer health care as part of a package - they have to in order to remain competitive in very competitive world.

I totally agree though that many small businesses will not offer this kind of benefit as part of the package and also that any extra money/ benefits etc will have to come from somewhere. How about the social security budget?

[minigundiplomat]

TOFO put it quite correctly. How about 3% rise in pay and allowances but all for the lower ranks so that a private/airman gets a big increase and then tapering off to nothing by the rank of WO?


Agree in principal, but it is not the JR's we are leaking, it is the SNCO/WO's who have all the corporate experience and have passed their IPP that are leaving in droves.
Whilst I would like to see the JR's get a pay rise, it's not much of an incentive for those we all depend on to make things happen, who are studying their hand and thinking of folding.