Hours building - cheaper in the UK?!

[Okavango]

Hi. Looking at current quotes, Ormond Beach Aviation are quoting £6259 for a 100hr, 28 day hours building package. Not withstanding the fact that it's probably better quality flight time in UK airspace and also the fact I want to spread the experience over a period (say 10 months), by my research I can also achieve this for a similar price in the UK (taking return flights to Florida and holiday accomm in account). A local non-equity group share over this period comes to £6900 (assuming 100 landing fees). Am I missing something or are there cheaper deals elsewhere in the States?

[XL319]

If you join a no equity group costs are lower. £50ph wet in a 152 and £70 per month 5420 over a six month period for 100 hours plus the standing charge. Saving on flight, food etc. Downside is weather here , but if you built up your hours here you get a feel of weather condition here compared to US.

[Vulcan607]

speak to "A and C" - on this site, thats his Pprune Callsign. He leases/rents C150/152 and a PA-28 for hours building in the UK. The idea being you take one of his aircraft for 1 week and do 20 hours or 2 weeks for 40 hours.

Looks very cost effective and something I'm considering at the moment

[benish]

If he was to lease a plane from A and C would he not have to fuel it each night as its his plane for a week?
You also pay landing fees in the UK but not in the USA.

Am i right?

[AlphaMale]

A local non-equity group share over this period comes to £6900 (assuming 100 landing fees).

Are you only looking to fly for 1hr at a time? I'll be looking to do some serious X country when I'm hour building. I think the main point of hour building before starting the CPL is to come across different experiences and learning.

So maybe 75 landings at the most would be realistic?

[potkettleblack]

There are two types of hour builders. The ones that go and burn holes in the sky and get into bad habits ie: out of trim, off heading etc. Then there are the people who go to their intended CPL/IR school and work out a bit of a programme. Its not difficult to work out which camp is the most sensible to be in.

Make the most of your hour building and it will pay you back in spades. Find out how the school does their plogs & fuel planning. Ask them what the main problems they find with people doing their CPL and correct those bad habits during your hour building. Get a copy of their SOP's and checklists and read through them. Be regimented in your flying and don't accept flying 50ft to high or low or 5 degrees of course. Trim the little bugger so that it flies where you want it to do. Get loads of landing practice in. Do lots of complicated cross country flights and go to challenging fields that require lots of ATC practice. Most of all have fun.

[Okavango]

Alphamale - yes I see where you're coming from, but the next thread kind of answers for me. Even though I may be out for extended periods, I'd still possibly average a landing/hr (and also as a conservative estimate for the cost comparison) as I want to get quality out of the 100hr quantity. Cheers.

[AlphaMale]

Yehh on second thoughts if you were practicing your landings at a challenging field then that would soon add up.

Good luck :ok:

[nh2301]

£6259 for a 100hr in the US is a bad deal.

you can still get a 150 wet for $65 or less for block time elsewhere.

[Tamar217]

I am hour building with my local club and am making use of the uk airspace to familiarise myself before CPL.

£5250 for 50 hours at my school, which is expensive, especially when some airfields charge 12-21 quid for a landing (add in lunch of course as that's what flying is all about :ok:)

However I have a full time job and fly 3 hours a week while doing an ATPL, the money I save by living and eating at my parents house and the money I earn at work, balance out the costs of whamming in loads of cheap, pointless hours abroad. I feel it is well worth the experience, even if the weather seriously gets me down sometimes.

[Okavango]

Yes nh2301 - I thought so - but where? I tend to agree with Tamar and will find myself in a similar situation so I guess it's horses for courses in any case.

[MartinCh]

those so-called JAA schools have one thing in common.
They only have to make their products atractive at a brief look to Brits and Irish. Not Americans... I'd be interested to know their Americans vs foreigners/mostly Brits/ ratio or numbers. That'll give you idea.
As folks mentioned before, having JAA approval allows for charging premium.
Plus Florida.. Not the cheapest place in the UK to fly and as well, not the most challenging either.

Impressing some Europeans isn't hard at current flying schools' rates for hire in the UK etc.

Non-equity groups sound like way to go if someone lives close and has PPL already.

You guys should consider yourself lucky. There's some budding future pro pilots that prefer to go (mostly) rotary route and then US is the way to go.

[A and C]

As said above I do lease aircraft for hours building. The cost would be about the same as flying in the USA but without the risks involved.

The market in the USA is just like the UK in that you will get what you pay for, the fantastic prices usualy come with a very tatty C150 that has had next to no maintenance and limitation that you to picking up fuel only from the company that rents you the aircraft or pay the price differance. The more reputable companys charge more and the aircraft are in a much better state (I see OBA as the an example of a Quality supplyer).

The other problem is weather, you will probably not get all the flying that you want to do done and as you haveto cost in hotels, airline tickets, food & car rental. the cost of a lost hour of flying in the USA is quite high.

My aircraft are so my customers tell me the nicest C152,s they have seen and I try to offer a quality aircraft at a reasonable price, I will not charge for flying lost because of weather just as long as you fly the aircraft a lot during the good weather days that you have.

The aircraft is rented "dry" so it is up to you to find the best deals on fuel and landing/parking fees (duty free fuel will save you about £9/hour).

Normaly people take the aircraft for one week and 20 hours or two weeks and 40 hours, this might not seem like a lot of flying how ever I don't want tired pilots flying my aircraft, I have made a large investment improving these aircraft and dont want some one to wreck one by trying to cram too much flying into too little time.

I have done some flying in the USA (CPL/IR/Multi) and found that two of the places let me down badly, the first pre-booked from the UK simply did not have the instructors or aircraft! and the second also failed to come up with the goods, the third place that I went to charged about 30% more but it was more than worth the money. At the time I was working in the USA and so the flying was not so time critical, the whole thing would have been a disaster if I had been on a three week break from work.

It was partly this that prompted me to start leasing aircraft for hours building and most of my customers have tried the USA option with variable results but seem pleased with the deal that I offer.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I'd done tons of research/prep. on this. Flying in the UK is slightly "cheaper", compared to other places like e.g. Malaga or USA, once you take into account "all" the costs involved and your personal requirements.
Personally, I would recommend hiring your own aircraft for a week or two, rather than a club, then your unrestricted on when it's available; just make sure you go for an a/c in good condition and a good price and your going to be winner :ok:

As stated above downside is the weather aspect, but i'm about to do an IMC here, so by the time I come onto my IR, having instrument experience and UK airspace experience will benefit me more than just flying around the US gaining bad habits..

I will quite likely fly around the USA at some point though.

[nich-av]

The other problem is weather, you will probably not get all the flying that you want to do done and as you haveto cost in hotels, airline tickets, food & car rental. the cost of a lost hour of flying in the USA is quite high.


You're just trying very hard to sell your product, desperate for the summer? How many "extremely well-maintained" aircraft do you have?
I can count more European organisations renting broken aircraft than American ones.

How can the UK be cheaper when the fuel alone is already twice the price in the U.S.? Parts, maintenance, insurance all that is way more expensive in the UK.
The UK airfields are also very infamous for their huge landing fees.
Oh and let's not forget at least 15% vat.

The best argument is that I have yet to see an American going for hour building in the UK. The average rental price for a C-150 is 75$+ state tax (around 5%) in the U.S., around 39£/hour. In the UK you would pay around 75£/hour+vat+landing fees. For the same money you can fly 3 hours per day in the US, stay in a 5* hotel, rent a luxury car and pay flight tickets.

Aircraft shares or flight clubs can be very interesting if you find the right group and can schedule without trouble. The UK is the most expensive country in Europe for general aviation/training. There are countries like France and Italy where some flight clubs have very interesting rates which indeed work out to be cheaper for locals.

[nh2301]

Near me, right now I know Cirrus Aviation in McMinnville, Oregon has a 150 for $65 an hour.

Otherwise putting 'Cessna 150 $65' into google finds a few dozen.

[A and C]

I would not wish to comment on the quality of service that the company you quote provides, however I refer you to the last two paragraphs of my post above.

[nh2301]

I too have been let down badly by flight schools in the US. I'd be the first to say avoid JAA pilotmills at all costs.

My point is it is possible to find schools accross the US where the rate is significantly cheaper than in the UK, and, especially when it comes to hour building with no VISA's you aren't restricted to one school. If you have trouble getting an airplane at one, move on to another.

I don't know how much you charge, (and I'm sure your airplanes are nicer!) but for a large block of hours, I can't imagine the UK being cheaper.

[Mercenary Pilot]

The trick to getting a good deal in the US is avoiding "JAA approved" schools. They usually have awful customer service, old aircraft and poor availability.