Life as a Second Officer at Qantas

[soar02]

Hi all,

Just trying to confirm a few things about the options a second officer has for qantas.
1. Is international flying the only way of starting for qantas meaning that you'll be doing it for atleast 3-5 years? Are there domestic routes that a SO can be based on? Is 3-5yrs accurate?
2. What is the typical time away from home for a SO? Are they usually long times apart or can they be smaller with less dadys off in between?

Thanks in advance for any information :ok:

[Transition Layer]

You can work on being away roughly half the time. 8 week/56 day roster, 26-30 days away.

For a mid range seniority S/O (on the -400) that might be something like:

London - 9 days away

12 days off

LA - 5 days away

8 days off

London - 9 days away

8 days off

LA - 5 days away

Or any combination of the above! As a minimum, you get half the days away off when you get back, i.e. 8 day London you get AT LEAST 4 days at home.

A330 guys do mainly 3/4/5 day trips around Asia and the odd LA at the moment. They do more frequent trips but spend roughly the same time away from home overall, but the advantage is the missus and the dog probably remember who you are!

And yes, 5 years is about the average time as S/O for those promoting at the moment. That might drop closer to 3 years if all the talked about promotion goes ahead.

Cheers

[Capt Fathom]

London - 9 days away, 12 days off

LA - 5 days away, 8 days off

London - 9 days away, 8 days off

LA - 5 days away

Where do I sign up? :{

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Perhaps this is a silly question but what the hell, here goes: does every new hire (at least those who've never worked for another airline) start off as a 2nd Officer or is that just for those who are on the larger equipment (greater than 2 pilots)?

FRQ CB

[drshmoo]

You could be the Chief pilot of Emirates or Cathay (not the naughty one:}) and if you want to join QF take a number at the bottom of the seniority line as an S/O

[ules]

what kind of work is involved as a second officer ??
just monitor in flight controls ? do you get to log any time.

[m-dot]

Tuning navaids, carrying the captains bag and the occasional bit of relief Flight Attending!

[soar02]

Thanks for the information, has been helpful. Even though they(SO's) don't do much in way of flying, do they still enjoy it all?

Cheers

[Johhny Utah]

It all depends - do you like $$$? Because aside from that, there's not really a great deal of attraction to the S/O job, aside from traveling whilst (realistically) doing very little work, and lazing around at home on your many days off.

I know, I know - it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it, right...? :ok:

[permFO]

Second Officer motto- Eat 'til your tired and sleep 'til you're hungry. Keg it would be great if you could translate it into Latin!:ok:

[ules]

cant wait to be a second officer haha..:}

[Keg]

Lol. Well my sig block has the drinking part of it taken care of. 'Now is the time for drinking'. Nunc est bibendum. :ok:

I guess I could try and work out how 'now is the time for eating' goes! :O

[Transition Layer]

Second Officers do absolutely nothing for half the flight....and then sleep for the other half.

[ules]

so wat are the minimum requirments for SO. ?
same as FO?

[BrokenConrod]

so wat are the minimum requirments for SO. ?

Breathe occassionally!

BC :}

[Taildragger67]

Life as a Second Officer at Qantas

Isn't that an oxymoron?

"It's life, Jim, but not as we know it..."

[Soulman]

i personally like choices and would prefer to have more than one type in my logbook when i die.

Some people want types in the logbook - others want cash in the bank.

You make your own choices.

[myshoutcaptain]

I plan on having both , but don't count either more important. Have fun whilst getting there.:ok:

[Capt Fathom]

myshoutcaptain

Hmmm.... another oxymoron!

[Tempo]

I personally think the S/O system works well in Qantas (although I was only a S/O for 18 months). It gives you a chance to enjoy the lifestyle as a S/O, learn the SOPs and manuals before doing what is really, quite a simple promotion to F/O. I think being a S/O is what you make of it. You can sit back and get lazy or you can get involved, ask questions and learn the operation.

[Poto]

Please correct me if im wrong.
I always assumed Qantas entry criteria were so low so they could lock a low time, low experienced pilot as SO and FO in for the many, many boring years of flying for the Qantas because they had no real command time of their own to apply for a better gig.
As opposed to going bush, doing the regionals, getting a command and then having your choice of anywhere in the world. i personally like choices and would prefer to have more than one type in my logbook when i die.

allow me to correct you:*

Plenty of Bush bashers with stacks of regional time and more logbooks stamps than Australia post join Qf. Crew from all walks of life.;)

[Brown Cow]

If you had the choice of A330/A380 or 747 what would you guys choose? Are there any particular advantages or disadvantages with each type?

[Aussie]

Well no one would know much about the A380 as yet... its not even in service.

[Keg]

If you had the choice of A330/A380 or 747 what would you guys choose? Are there any particular advantages or disadvantages with each type?

You don't get a choice so don't even go down that road or you'll send yourself insane. :ok:

There are advantages to one fleet over the other in terms of pay and lifestyle but they will affect each person differently so it's hard to say. 744 get's more pay than A330 crew. A380 S/Os will probably get about the same as the 744 drivers....possibly a bit more if they're doing lots of MEL-LAX and SYD-LAX. A330 crew get shorter trips closer to an Aussie time zone so less jet lag and you see the family a bit more often than the 744 crews who spend up to 14 days away from home.

[Brown Cow]

Thanks for the info guys:ok:

I recently got offered a job (stoked!) and the lovely recruiting ladies asked for my aircraft preference either a380, a330 or b747, although they did say it didn't guarentee anything. Its a tough choice....not that I'm complaining!

[regitaekilthgiwt]

In that case. 747. It will have the most interesting destinations once the 380 takes up the boring trunk ones. Good luck!

[Mr Cat]

Hi all,

can anyone tell me the current pay for SO approx annually ???

Cheers

[marpoo]

Do QF provide the SO's with command endorsement training or co-pilot training. Is there a difference, or maybe just in the final sim ride ?? or maybe CASA just issues them differently ? What do the SO's end up with on there license ?

M

[Keg]

Mr Cat, it depends on aircraft type.

1st Year after having completed training: $80K.
2nd year: $100K
3rd year: $120-150K depending on aircraft type.

The variance between the 744/A380 and the A330 could be as much as $20-30K on those figures. Try a search of the forums for Qantas rates or similar and you should find some decent info. I know that I've put the numbers up a few times.

Marpoo, co-pilot endorsement and co-pilot instrument rating from memory. Is there a difference in training and checking requirements? Yep. Standard higher for the command rating, ability to land, amount of training given, etc.

[Keg]

OK, I've hardened up the numbers a bit. These numbers aren't calendar year or FY, they're based upon time after checking out as a S/O.

Year 1: Pay rate 64.14/ hour. 744 S/Os will do about 1100 credit hours and average about 120 extra hours of overtime per annum. Add in simulators and ground training and you're looking at 1250 credit hours per annum. $80K Allowances are on top of that (About $15-20K but don't forget that you'll expend some/most/all of that when you're away depending on your eating/ drinking/ sight seeing/ vice habits. Company super is also on top of that although you'll lose some with your own (compulsory) super contribution I think.

A330 S/Os may do a bit less overtime- perhaps about 1/3 to a half- so do the maths on 1150 credit hours to be conservative. Drop (say) $6K.

Year 2: Pay rate for first half of the second year is $68 across all three types. Pay rate for second half of second year is $85 for 744 and $80 for A330- I didn't realise they were so close! :eek:

Year 3: 744 $89. A330 $85.

A380 pay rates not yet decided but I'd bet that they won't be more than the 744 given that it appears that there is growing support (supposedly) for fleet pay. What this means for S/O pay into the future I don't know.

Hope that assists. Hopefully it'll be a bit more 'searchable' also! :ok:

[B772]

How often is the A330 operating to LAX and what is the routing.

[maggot]

akl-lax. not sure on frequency, maybe 3x a week?

[happydriver]

A330 AKL-LAX is now daily.
Life as an SO is exactly that......YOU HAVE A LIFE outside of work!!!

Come on in.....the waters warm!


:O

[Brown Cow]

Are international pilots allowed to bring back 2 bottles of duty free alcohol from every trip, or is there some kind of annual limit? (just working out how best to support my habit)

[Keg]

Every trip! Enjoy.....but not to excess! :ok:

[empacher48]

Sweet! Now that has convinced me that I should become a long haul pilot!!

[Centaurus]

I heard that a very experienced pilot close to a command on a 767 in Europe decided to come home to OZ and got into QF as second officer. With now several years seniority as S/O he can choose not to fly and stay on reserve and still earn a very comfortable "sit down" pay like the welfare dependant indiginous ones in Arnhem Land. Now that's what I call a good life style.

[obie2]

Brown Cow tells us he recently got "offered" a job by Qantas!

I think he means he passed all the interviews and was "selected" for a job with Qantas!

Am I correct, so far BC...if not please correct me.

BC now wants to know how much duty free grog he can bring back into Oz following an o/s roster, to support his habit, as he tells us!

Now I presume BC hasn't yet commenced with Qantas...but he can correct me there also if I am wrong!

Could I suggest two things Brown Cow, to assist you with your future career, which I hope will be successful...

1. Have a think about your attitude, which sure doesn't impress me!

2. Make yourself known to Keg, who I suspect would also be suitably unimpressed, and learn from and model yourself on him! :=

[redsnail]

Methinks he's just having a laugh. :ok:

After all, isn't a keg something that holds a lot of beer? :ok:

[Cap'n Arrr]

Keg said:

Lol. Well my sig block has the drinking part of it taken care of. 'Now is the time for drinking'. Nunc est bibendum. :ok:

I guess I could try and work out how 'now is the time for eating' goes! :O

Sounds all in line to me!

[gotta_love_P28A]

1100 credit hours
sorry for a stupid question, but when you say credit hours-is that the same as flying hours for the log book? Or does a SO get no flying hours because he's not copilot?
Thanks guys

[fourgolds]

Ask Warren.

[gotta_love_P28A]

Ask Warren.

Err...ok another stupid question-and one i feel i should know the answer too
Who's Warren?
:O
Cheers

[Back Seat Driver]

G L warrior,
'Credit Hours' are not the same as logbook hours.
Trips or 'Patterns' are awarded credit hours depending on how many days away, daytime flying or night flying, via a formula.
An eight week Roster ('pattern line' )of flying will usually be in the vicinity of 160 - 175 'credit' hours to earn your pay.
CAO flight time limitations apply to Qf Longhaul. ie. 900 hours per year max.

Warren - is a QF specific joke. An urban myth and a fallacy started by a scorned Female FA to harm the reputation of a former boyfriend techie.

[fourgolds]

Is that you Warren ?

[gotta_love_P28A]

Thanks BSD, good to know you do get some flying hours as SO, all you hear on here is you carry the captains bag and make the coffee
I didn't spend thousands and thousands of hard earned $$$ to do that :{ lol

[Back Seat Driver]

Warrior,
I have never seen an S/O treated in such a way. More often than not, at flight planning one of the S/O's will be asked if he/she would like to 'Have a go' with the plan,- that is run through and check the flt plan, ask the other crew members (inclding Capt & F/O) to read through and brief notams etc and make an assessment on the fuel order. If the Captain and other crew agree they will 'run' with it or discuss any differences of opinion. On arrival at the aircraft that S/O would have a large input into the management of the entire sector, and when 'in the seat' would usually be the PF. You don't get to be in the seat below 10k but other than that you are treated as 'the man'.
S/O's are fully integrated, Co-Pilot rated and respected members of the crew. Hope to see you sitting beside one day. Good Luck.
You log all the hours, and half of that goes towards flying experience and all of it goes to your Grand Total.

[gotta_love_P28A]

Thanks mate, that is the single most useful post i have seen on this forum! Makes me want to aim at the airlines again!:cool:
Now back to the AGK...and then i'll see you soon!!!!

[Keg]

After all, isn't a keg something that holds a lot of beer? :ok:

Normally 'yes' but the rule doesn't apply to this particular Keg. Unfortunately I'm able to hold very little beer- or anything else made of alcohol unfortunately! :(

BSD's description of the S/O is broadly true and works for the high quality crews. Regrettably there are some crews that can't/won't work in this manner. They are in the minority.

[Muff Hunter]

Back seat drivel,

that must have been a dream you had whilst in crew rest...."you the man"..........i think far from it...!!!!!!

[Back Seat Driver]

Evening Muff,
I'm so upset, that you disagree.... not.
Out of interest I've had a look at your posts via the search function to see how you add value to prune discussions. What did I find? Nothing but negativity, glib one line assertions, mostly erroneous and a sense of inflated ego. I'm guessing you're a J* 320 F/O, though I may be wrong.
Well Whoopdie F*cken Doo. Young Fella's like G L P28A will bring a lot more to our job than you are ever likely to achieve. Perhaps it's time to retire the Muff handle and rejoin under a different name D!ckhead.

[Muff Hunter]

Did you learn such language on your cadet course??

Seems to me that i've hit a raw nerve!!

[Green gorilla]

Never been a second officer but had a mate who was one for Q he is now a FO on a 767 he could not wait to be upgraded.

[Poto]

Plenty of 76 F/O's would love to get back into the S/O seat at the moment:confused:

[Datum]

Surprising number of Second Officers wish to leave Qantas and aviation in general at the moment as well!..:uhoh:

[yeoman]

Could you tell us why?

There are a couple of us Europeans having a bit of a root around the Oz employment market at the moment so any info would be gratefully received.

I understand that AIPA are less than impressed with the prospect of foreign pilots being hired which is a fair one - we had a similar view in the UK 10 odd years ago.

With this 457 visa business, presumably the airline in question sponsors that and should the market change or the union make its views stick then a foreign pilot could see that sponsorship disappear. You will have to forgive me if I'm stepping on toes here, it is a genuine request for opinions from a bloke who has had enough of the UK, loves Australia and has no trade outside flying aeroplanes!

So everybody joins QF as an SO, what about other operators? Who are looking to recruit from abroad and are there any Direct Entry Commands - again, sorry if that offends but I have no idea of experience levels about the place.

Thanks for the pay info Keg, any ideas on the screw for other operators?

[yeoman]

Direct Anywhere

Great stuff, thanks. As for having a go, no problem there. I just need the facts and if they are unpleasant it doesn't make them less of a fact!:ok:

Thanks again. Any more views out there?

[OZBorn]

Just to get the thread back on line again, the truth of the matter is self discipline. If you want to be a second officer and languish you can, if you want to see it as a stepping stone for progression (albeit a long and drawn out one at times) you can, or if you want to use it as a vehicle to support another interest outside of Qantas you can. Qantas is a means to an end. For some people S/O is the end. There are some seriously senior guys as S/O's loving life as they can pick and choose any trip they want to fit in with the rest of their lifestyle. Personally, I couldn't bear the thought of sitting on the F/D without a window for any longer than required but that's me. The overriding factor in all of this comes down to seniorority. It creates no incentive to excel beyond what is required and you can quickly fall into the 51% syndrome. S/O takes all types and in Q you will meet all the types. It pays however to stick to your ideals and get some perspective every once and a while to avoid becoming the bitter and twisted S/O (read: passenger) that unfortunately some become. To any wanting to become an S/O, look past the sarcasm that pervades much of this site and you can find a job that is rewarding and enjoyable and pays well. Like any job there will be aspects that will s#!t you no end but overall it's a pretty good gig.

[Fire_cracker]

I just received my letter of "Intent to Employ" from Qantas and we are thrilled! My background includes flying a Turbine Otter on Amhibs in Broome, WA, as well as owning my own Super Cub for a few years. I have loads of G.A. experience and at 35, I have been flying for 20 years, beginning training solely on my own dime - my old man thought I was nuts as a young girl going into aviation on my own. My most recent experience has been 9 years active in the Airlines - regional and United, hired in Feb 2000.

At United I was hired in 2000, furloughed in 2003, re-hired in 2006, and now soon to be furloughed again in 2009.

Mail-Man has it wrong. At all of my jobs, The Qantas interview has been by far the most difficult. Bush flying actually requires little skill and a lot of bravery to get hired - i.e. my last employer had 2 pilots die under his watch. So it's the skill that keeps you alive, not hired.

Qantas is more selective than that, and they test you at the highest level all-around. I truly believe they are one of the greatest airlines in the world. I read Keg's posts a lot so I suspect he'll give me a hard time, but I've been shy to post until now so I'm hoping for a Congrats.

My questions:
How accurate are the dates on the "Intent to Employ" letter dates and the actual dates?

Are the fuel price increases going to affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

Will the Engineer Strike affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

B747 is supposed to be better pay than A330, is that true? But that is based on working conditions, correct? I still think I'd prefer the A330 to be with my family, am I wrong?

I have more questions, but I'm shy to post as I've seen the responses! PM is a good thing.

[Keg]

Fire cracker. Congrats on the letter. To address your questions:

How accurate are the dates on the "Intent to Employ" letter dates and the actual dates?

They were pretty accurate when they sent them. Things can change and you allude to some of the potential issues facing the industry in your other questions. At this stage and on this date though, it should be pretty solid.

Are the fuel price increases going to affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

At current levels, no. If they keep going up then that answer is null and void- as are a lot of issues. QF still have a massive training schedule over the next 12 months and there has been no modification to that program since the supposed cut backs have been announced. We still have five or six A380s to turn up over the next 12 months, a few A330s, a few 738s, etc.

Will the Engineer Strike affect hiring - i.e. Is my letter serious?

No, the engineer industrial action won't have an affect on your hiring unless things change drastically- IE the ALAEA step up the action, etc.

B747 is supposed to be better pay than A330, is that true? But that is based on working conditions, correct? I still think I'd prefer the A330 to be with my family, am I wrong?

If you tell QF that you have a preference for the A330 the odds are you'll get it. That said, our EBA is supposedly looking at bringing in fleet pay over the next few years so the only difference in pay between the fleets will be overtime. The 744 will still do more of that so they'll still be paid more (as will the A380). Both 744 and A330 drivers tend to have the same number of days off. The difference is in the length of trips away- and by default, the length of time off at home. A330 will have you home with your family after less time away.

I have more questions, but I'm shy to post as I've seen the responses! PM is a good thing.

Don't stress too much about it. It's pretty easy to sort the wheat from the chaff.

[mcgrath50]

Whats a 'normal' (I know there isn't such a thing but indulge me lol) career structure for a cadet entrant and a DE entrant after their 15 year in the RAAF?

[Keg]

After 15 years the QF cadet entrant will more than likely had the opportunity to upgrade to command. The same will apply to the RAAF entrant but the difference is the former cadet will be about 35 and the former RAAFie will be closer to 50. Other than that, the career choices in QF will be very similar, just the age at which they occur will differ.

Tough call to make though. Glad Ronnie RAAF never made me make it! :ok:

[Barons Forever]

Fire cracker

When did you do your sim & interview? Waiting on a letter myself and wondering what sort of gap to expect.