View Full Version : Scientific Question?

tony draper
3rd Jun 2008, 12:22
Problem,a chap has a bottle of very rare beer that he prizes deeply,the problem with this ale is being very fizzy (gassious?) if it is opened even having sat int fridge for a long period he will immediately lose up to a third of it as it foams over the top,one suggested he gain access to a decompression chamber enter same and charge it up to say thirty atmospheres then open the bottle which due to the atmospheric pressure the Co2 in suspension in same would not be so keen to turn into gas,
Be this true?

Dan D'air
3rd Jun 2008, 12:29
Indeed it be Drapes, indeed it be. Am sure you will have one built by lunchtime!!!:)

3rd Jun 2008, 12:37
Yes, but then all the dissolved gas will have to come out of the beer when he decompresses - result, several hours of belching/f4rting. Better to open the bottle in a big cooking bowl, let the beer froth into the bowl and the gas escape naturally, then pour it into the tankard.


tony draper
3rd Jun 2008, 12:39
One supposes the Pub that sells this rare ale could keep a barmaid ensconced in one of these devices and have her pass the decanted wallop through a small airlock,a window could be installed above this airlock so the chaps at the bar can still admire her tits.
By Jove! one sees Aunt Mary has indeed had a small bet up.:uhoh:

3rd Jun 2008, 12:42
30 atmospheres would represent a diving (decompression) chamber which simulated a depth of 990ft below the surface?! Can't be many of those around...?!

I reckon your mate should consider the most economical method I could think of - freediving (ie. without any scuba gear) down to say 3 atmospheres (99 feet - that ought to be enough), consuming the ale rapidly and then coming back up. If I'm right, he'll be burping or farting a lot on the way back up... :ok:

tony draper
3rd Jun 2008, 12:46
Hmmm,don't suppose anyone will be able to afford this ale shortly as they will probably slap a 500% carbon tax ont.

3rd Jun 2008, 12:47
As my husband once eruditely postulated whilst getting blootered on cider ...

It contains that gas which cannot be contained!!



tony draper
3rd Jun 2008, 12:50
Hmmm would be some interesting pub conversations if fizzy drinks were aerated wi helium.

3rd Jun 2008, 13:03
Is this beer to celebrate your one thousandth recorded p*** perchance?
Must be why I saw your Aunt Mary carrying a crate then

Solid Rust Twotter
3rd Jun 2008, 13:54
30 atmospheres? The beer would be as flat as a very flat thing under that kind of pressure. As one of the founders of the African Beer Load Association one would often go up on the last load of the day with a few like minded admirers of sunsets to partake of a cold one and watch the day end while under canopy. A hop and pop at 14000' AGL would give us a very long canopy ride, particularly if we used the back risers to turn back to the DZ which was about 10km away, leaving the brakes stowed for a more relaxed ride. Once on course the beer would be opened to be enjoyed while admiring said sunset. The lower pressure at that altitude meant the beer would foam like mad and be blown back onto one's chest or into the face. Not being very bright this pastime was usually undertaken in a pair of shorts, a t-shirt and a parachute. The resultant flood of beer on one's chest would more often than not freeze into a sheet of ice which thawed slowly on the way down.

Apparently we did this for fun....:ooh:

3rd Jun 2008, 14:17
Standard Temperature and Pressure.

A bottle of cola can be liquid at room temperature whether under pressure or not.

The same bottle, can be liquid at -18 deg C under pressure but turn to ice immediately the pressure is released. Not a drop is spilt but then you can't drink it as it is solid ice.

Same with beer no doubt.

tony draper
3rd Jun 2008, 16:09
Once tried to swim under a Tanker,can't remember where now musta been somewhere warm or yer would not have got me in the water,anyway got down as far as the bilge keel an me ears got very hurty so I gave up, just as well it seemed a awful long way back to the top,one recons one musta went down thirty feet or so so thats one extra atmosphere,dunno how anybody can go down further than that,not if they want to come up again anyway.
One was young and foolish at the time.

3rd Jun 2008, 16:58
One was young and foolish at the time. One is never too old, if one might add add (speaking for oneself)... :ok:

Big Tudor
3rd Jun 2008, 17:20
This is now driving me insane. I am sure I read recently of an 'inventor' type chappie from the 19th century who experimented with just such an idea. He sat in a decompression chamber drinking beer to see what the effects would be. Basically the effects were naught, until he opened the door and stepped back into the real world. His farts & burps were disturbing neighbours 5 streets away.

He sounded like a proper mad professor but I'm bu66ered if I can remember who the hell he was. I'm sure he also wired his wife up to the mains "to see what would happen". After the experiment he sent her out to make his tea!! :eek:

3rd Jun 2008, 17:36
Tony, have you tried the multiple raps on the top of the bottle technique?

eastern wiseguy
3rd Jun 2008, 17:40
Name names...what sort of highly fizzy beer could possibly be prized .....?:ok:

Pontius Navigator
3rd Jun 2008, 19:32
Tony, I did a free dive down to 45 feet once, at that depth your lung volume is reduced but I think you have more air available to breath. It is when you come up on empty that it matters.

In my case the dive leader gave me a lung full so I now had 1.5 bar extra air and was able to stooge around at depth another minute. Had I surfaced immediately and without breathing out things might have got interesting.

Solid Rust Twotter
3rd Jun 2008, 20:35
Spearos will get around 100' free diving. The problem with extended dives, particularly when using hyperventilation techniques, is that the decrease in partial pressure while ascending (along with other causes such as low CO2 levels which are insufficient to trigger the breathing reflex) can lead to a phenomenon called shallow water blackout. Many spearos have drowned because of this.

3rd Jun 2008, 20:44
Something similar happened at the opening ceremony for the Blackfriars or summat tunnel dahn saarf. A sumptuous meal was served underground at the mid-point and much champagne was quaffed with many remarks on the flatness which was blamed at the time on the vintner.

On ascending from the tunnel some rather violent intestinal gymnastics occurred as the dissolved CO2 no longer under pressure made its presence felt and no doubt heard. I cant suppress a chuckle thinking about Victorian stuffed suits along with expensively dressed wives farting their way back to gilded carriages.

Red faces and rattling chocolate starfishes all round.


3rd Jun 2008, 20:56

How can the Bottle under pressure go WATER ICE GAS? If pressure turns gas to water then it should go ice.

So realing would go ICE WATER GAS Hmmm I hate pressure..

Same with Weather...Why does dew point change...Air holds water depending on temperature...so how can dew point temperature change all the time :confused:

3rd Jun 2008, 22:49
Carbon dioxide and water have a special relationship that is much different from what happens in water with less reactive gasses such as nitrogen, helium, etc.

CO2 reacts with H20 to form some amount of H2CO3 - carbonic acid. In our bloodstream this reaction is the basis for our ability to transform inhaled O2 into exhaled CO2, with some clever chemistry and metabolic energy transfers in the process.

The reason CO (carbon monoxide) is so inexorably deadly is that it interferes with the basic O2->CO2 process by locking up the hemoglobin carrier in the red blood cells that do the work.

The reason people experience altitude sickness is that the vapour pressure of CO2 decreases faster than that of O2 at altitude, leaving less carbonic acid by ratio in the bloodstream and thereby fouling up our breathing reflexes.

The general relationship between gas pressure and CO2 pressure is tricky to calculate because several simultaneous reactions occur between CO2 and water. Presence of enzymes and various chemical compounds further alters the details, but over time, the pressure of CO2 gas in a vessel containing water will decrease when it is absorbed into the liquid as carbonic acid. This can cause interesting effects up to and including IMPLOSION of containers whose design assumes pressures will be pushing inside-outward rather than pressing forcefully inward.

As in human affairs, things grow more interesting when alcohol is involved. Yeast cells such as saccromyces cervesiae, the hard-working little fellows who convert the weight of plant sugars into half alcohol and half CO2, do not work nearly so well as ambient gas pressures increase. Fermentation all but ceases at some ambient pressure level less than 10 atm - probably more like 5-8 atm typical. The EU standard for champagne ferms using the in-bottle methode champenoise is 6 atm max as target value for regulatory purposes... with that peak pressure providing the main reason for those very thick bottles and caged corks. During aging the pressure dissipates due to carbonic acid creation, leaving 2-4 atm as a typical residual pressure in the headspace at opening when champagne is properly chilled and not shaken.

Given all that, I'm thinking the proper way to dispense that beer would be through a small-diameter valve that gently feeds into a VERY clean glass, with a bottled CO2 supply of about 50-125 psi keeping pressure in the ale container bottle so the liquid does not feel the need to fizz until close to one's tongue. For that matter, a flexible pipe direct up to the palate, hookah-style, mightn't be half bad -- probably is a mortal sin to do that, but technically fairly right.


3rd Jun 2008, 23:03
We have tried the shot gunning cans of beer sitting on a deco trapez at 9m while coming up diving.

Even stella was pretty flat at 1.9bar or 1.9 atm.

There was no real increase in belching and farting but to be honest after living on board a converted trawler for a week diving twice a day and drinking Skullsplitter Orkney Ale everynight any increase in volume would have caused several bouyant accents. There was already SOP's in place to vent your dry suit before cracking the zip open.

A box of wine is the way forward.

I would chill it right down until it just starts to form ice on the surface then open it.

There is some 100 year old beer sitting at the bottom of the Clyde which every diver on thier first dive on the Wallacha brings up. Then promptly starts moaning when anyone who has got the t-shirt promptly de-corks it and pours the stinking contents overboard. One daft prat even tried drinking it :yuk:

4th Jun 2008, 10:00
I know a chap who claims to be very fond of wine. He proudly showed me a bottle of wine of the 1958 vintage which was, allegedly, a rather good year. Ahah! quoth I. If it was that bloody good, why keep it for thirty years without opening it?

Just glug it down tony and don't worry about the spillage. Its only beer when all's said and done and I imagine you've spilled many a pint over the years. ;)

tony draper
4th Jun 2008, 10:40
During one's ale period one favored Newcastle Exhibition straight from the pump Mr B,proper froth that had on it,one disliked bottled beers even Newcastle Brown Ale.

4th Jun 2008, 10:50
Crown cap or cork? In the latter case, get a syringe with steel needle and plastic body. Small diameter body. With the plunger fully down, drill a vertical row of small holes in the body, starting above the plunger. Whack the needle through the cork. Ensure the needle is in the space above the beer. Raise the plunger to uncover one or more holes, allowing the bottle to outgas very slowly. Been there, done that.

For a crown cap, if you can, freeze the neck of the bottle. Use the above syringe to whack through the cap, add sealant where the needle goes through. It will set by the time the neck unfreezes. Been there, done that 2, but only because I did the cork and wondered how to extend my newly-acquired skill.

tony draper
4th Jun 2008, 11:50
Hmmmm,how one ponder how would one cope with such a bottle of ale in the ISS? reduced air pressure, zero G, it could result in the entire craft re entering atmosphere and burning up.!:uhoh:

4th Jun 2008, 12:06
Newcastle Exhibish is without doubt one of the world's greatest beers. There may be better, but I've never had the pleasure of sampling any yet.

Newcastle Brown Ale well deserves its alternative names of "Jorney inta Space" and "Lunatics Broth". Think Paul "Gazza" Gascoine - the unfortunate Geordie ex-footballer. I rest my case.

tony draper
4th Jun 2008, 12:10
People don't believe it when yer tells em that Cox Lodge the local lollypop farm used to have a special ward for Brown Ale Drinkers,but it is perfectly true.:uhoh::rolleyes:

4th Jun 2008, 12:10
I always knew it as 'the dog' Never did know how it acquired that name.

tony draper
4th Jun 2008, 12:14
From Old Brown Dog I believe, it also had the secret name of "Jake" but that name was only known to real Geordies.
Milk of Amnesia was another sobriquet. :uhoh: