1989- Pilots dispute 19 years on [Archive]

Wiley

4th Jun 2008, 04:54

I've been asked about 1989 by a number of people over the years, (but not recently, because most people today who weren't directly involved don't even remember it). I spoke to a 20-something Australian male flight attendant recently who grew up in Gladstone Park (right next door to Melbourne Airport). He asked me why I wasn't flying in Australia and when I mentioned 1989, he didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

The comment that's come to serve me best is "Until you're involved in something like that yourself, you'll never understand. Hope and pray you'll never understand."

...as for the comment about how "selfish" the pilots were for resigning when they were told it was the only way to protect their homes and superannuation from being grabbed by Abeles and Jimmy Bow Tie... (Whilst accepting that in hindsight, it was p**spoor legal advice), what can you say in reply to someone who rails on against that? Like I said: "Until you're involved in something like that yourself, you'll never understand."

Knumb Knuts

4th Jun 2008, 05:00

:O The current crop of juniors flogging the airways in flat bottomed jets might be better off had it not been for the "few" who thought they knew better than the union at the time. That includes the QF babies who think they invented flying.
Most posts on wages and conditions bleat about tough they are doing, while Dicko lead by TT pays himself $6.5 million.
History will repeat itself sooner or later, and the juniors will be leading from a lower base than existed in '89.
And the 89er's are not the "few" who thought they knew better than the union, they are the decent pilots and their families who demonstrated what real industrial courage is despite the horror of seeing their careers get passed off to opportunists foreign and domestic. Abeles is dead. Hawke is not far behind on age alone:D

Hoofharted

4th Jun 2008, 05:15

Good-grief I'm tired of this sh1t being dragged out of the sewer. :yuk:

Teal

4th Jun 2008, 05:32

For those too young to remember, or for those with hazy memories (or selective amnesia), the following link provides an account of the dispute by an ex-Ansett pilot:

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/pd89_introduction.htm (http://www.vision.net.au/%7Eapaterson/aviation/pd89_introduction.htm)

Spad

4th Jun 2008, 05:44

Am I the olny one who finds himself wondering about the career path of someone who makes comments likeGood-grief I'm tired of this sh1t being dragged out of the sewer.?

Anyone who can't see the direct correlation between 1989 and the current management attempts - apparently successful - to import cheaper foreign pilots into Jet* and Rex has either "no imagination or selective amnesia".

Prior to August 1989, there was a real union in place that would have put a stop to such things before they got off the ground - to everyone's benefit (except the cheap foreign labour and the 'lower costs at any cost' management).

blue belly

4th Jun 2008, 06:12

all I asked was if anyone was planning anything...

Many have strong feelings still either way and I am sure there are those still ashamed to show there faces in public.

I am proud of my decision 19 years ago and that I stood for my principles, good to have freinds all around the world and in Oz, more importantly walk down the street looking people straight in the eyes!

Anulus Filler

4th Jun 2008, 06:38

It would have been much better if you had PPRUNE 20 years ago.

HIALS

4th Jun 2008, 06:59

It's amazing to cast our minds back to 89 - and realise there was no internet (as a public utility), no email, no mobile phones (as we know the system now).

What a massive difference the internet alone would have made.

I am convinced that one of the greatest disadvantages the pilots and their union had, was their inability to disseminate their point of view. Their opponents had the biggest propoganda machine (Hawke Government) and publicity machine (Murdoch Media) available. The public were provided with a very one-sided storyline.

A point proven by the insistence of a previous poster that there was a 'strike'. The mis-information continues to this day. And, I guess in some way that's why the issue isn't dead and buried.

teresa green

4th Jun 2008, 11:22

I was there big time. I am sorry it happened it did not need to. It cost me a lot, friends, family separations, but on the plus side it gave my family and myself a chance to live in another country (Belgium) and experience another way of life. It taught my kids how to speak another language, and and gave them a different way of looking at the world. On the minus side I made it too late to say goodbye to my father, it cost me a heap of money, and most of all it caused me to become bitter. On a recent flight back to OZ I came across a grey haired bloke wearing two stripes, we both bowed our heads at one another, there was no need to speak, we both knew the story. If it did nothing else it started enterprise bargaining for the future aircrews, but it was a hell of a price to pay. Amen.

FGD135

4th Jun 2008, 11:32

As one who was just starting his flying career in 1989, I ask:

What lessons are there to be learned from 1989, and have they been learned?

Capt Wally

4th Jun 2008, 12:27

Mankind never learns from it's mistakes. Why? because we are driven by a desire to seek more.

CW

7x7

4th Jun 2008, 12:31

What lessons are there to be learned from 1989, and have they been learnedCertainly by the airline companies, judging by the way they've so sucessfully divided and conquered the pilot group in the years since - and how they've so successfully ground down terms and conditions to the horrible state they are for most today.

However, judging by the many "not this old boring subject again" comments you see here on Pprune, not too many lessons have been learned by the pilots who have come into the industry in its wake. Possibly because many of them were given a rather one-sided, self-serving version of events by the aptly named "heroes" who returned or blew into the industry post '89.

Eastwest Loco

4th Jun 2008, 13:02

In my case, I will once again remember months of being home for 36 hours a week while trying to hold the Hobart operation together after our route agent Philomenas Travel went tits up at the worst possible time. Delightful female that one - NOT!

I will remember the good people a Hadleys Hotel, who became my external family and always made sure the Marty Zuccho Pizza was there in 20 minutes with the six pack of VB.

Also I will remember the good mates I lost when they decided to not return for what they believed was a just cause.

The thing I remember most is my hate for the the fat dude and the bodgie, for the decimaction they caused within the ranks of my friends for their own sorry and pointless gain. One is dead, the other deserves to be.

I am sorry, but the manipulation of people I really cared about for ones own gain does not garner one tiny bit of favour with me.

God bless you all - on both sides. Heroes and scabs are not true titles and should never be used. Dreamers and Realists are more acceptable, as neither group was really wrong. The picture cards had been taken out of the deck before the first hand was dealt.

The only problem was the manipulation from above.

At least one of those involved is now below. I will have a beer when the other departs.

Best all

EWL

FlexibleResponse

4th Jun 2008, 13:23

A union was simply trying to improve the lot of its members by seeking improved salary and benefits.

Would any of the dramatic consequences have happened without the personal interference of the Silver Budgie (Bodgie?)?

(I ask this question as an outsider looking in.)

john_tullamarine

4th Jun 2008, 21:56

It would have been much better if you had PPRUNE 20 years ago.

As inferred by several ... had we had this wonderful tool back then, the situation would have been managed quite differently.

As we all observed, disinformation was rife throughout .. from both sides (and disgracefully so). The dispute made it so clear why, in war, communication and dissemination of information is the first thing to be controlled.

The AFAP had a very useful, and well used, phone hookup system .. but nothing like the power which PPRuNe offers.

.. which is why, I guess, that many airline managements (and others) hate PPRuNe with a vengeance ...

our patent medicine

salut !

tinpis

4th Jun 2008, 22:31

I wonder.... who would have supported pilots by way of public internet forum?

I recall a certain talk back jock exhorting pilots to hurry get back and sign contracts

Knumb Knuts

4th Jun 2008, 23:15

:8 The internet and Prune would have made no difference to the outcome. I think it was Kipling who said something like: never take on anyone who buys printer's ink by the barrel. In this case - the Dirty Digger, friend of the Silver Bodgie, the little cherub (Sec. of the ACTU), and Ansett business partner of the Hungarian puppeteer, now deceased and explaining himself to the big jet jock in the sky - perhaps. :) :ok:

Pinky the pilot

4th Jun 2008, 23:48

The thing I remember most is my hate for the the fat dude and the bodgie, for the decimaction they caused within the ranks of my friends for their own sorry and pointless gain. One is dead, the other deserves to be.

My feelings exactly!!:

I am sorry, but the manipulation of people I really cared about for ones own gain does not garner one tiny bit of favour with me.

Regrettably, this type of behaviour always seems to manifest itself in the corridors of political power.

God bless you all - on both sides. Heroes and scabs are not true titles and should never be used. Dreamers and Realists are more acceptable, as neither group was really wrong. The picture cards had been taken out of the deck before the first hand was dealt.

Hear Hear!:ok::ok:

The only problem was the manipulation from above.

Lord Acton's observation re power corrupting applied!:mad:

At least one of those involved is now below. I will have a beer when the other departs.

I shall open a bottle of the best bubbly I can afford, and drink the lot by myself in one session!:ok:

Thank you Eastwest Loco for the best comment I have ever read on this subject in these pages!:ok::ok:

Teal

5th Jun 2008, 04:48

he'll probably be crematedYou'd have to stand well back - he'd be 100% proof..:}

teresa green

5th Jun 2008, 07:42

I sincerely hope none of you blokes EVER have to go thru such a thing again. Imagine landing in CBR and being told to get off the A/C and have it locked up. Imagine having to drive back to MEL with the F/O not knowing what the F$#K. Imagine standing in front of your young family (aged 10 to 2 months) with the sweat running down your back as it suddenly hits you, you are no longer employed, imagine if you were like me, joining the airlines aged 19 and knew nothing else, imagine working as a brickies aid like I did so I could pay the bills, ( at least I got fit and learnt some Italian) imagine having to say goodbye to family, friends and pets, imagine having to take your old labrador dog to be put down, because she was to old to go to anyone else, (and she thought she was going for a trip in the car) we cried for a week. Imagine packing up your family, saying goodbye to much loved grandparents, (one we never saw again) imagine your kids crying as they said goodbye to their school and friends, imagine lying in bed and wishing you could put a nice clean bullet right between the eyes of two people, (unnamed) You can guess. I still get a gut contraction everytime I see or hear one of them, How the hell did the bloke sleep at night? How would you like to hear about mates that topped themselves, mates that ended up alcoholics, marriage breakups, and the battle between scabs and those that were not. No, whatever the politics of it all, the human pain and suffering was off the clock. I hope it NEVER happens again to any one of you. You would have all met one of them, you cannot miss them, blokes with years of experience, flying around as second officers, blokes who would have more hours than the skipper, blokes whose lives were absolutely buggered. Don't ever let it happen again I repeat, stick together, be realistic, support one another, stand united, and think of the big picture, and don't ever let the bastards destroy you.

SIUYA

5th Jun 2008, 07:48

Pinky.........

I shall open a bottle of the best bubbly I can afford, and drink the lot by myself in one session!

Don't worry Pinky, I'll buy 5 more SP brown stubbies and add it to your one bottle (stubby) to make a 6-pack, and we'll both enjoy them! :}

tail wheel

5th Jun 2008, 08:05

"Unfortunately the b*stard refuses to die. Even when he does, he'll probably be cremated to deny us the party."

Doubt it. It would take the Firies a week to put the fire out!

:}

Capt Wally

5th Jun 2008, 08:30

'TG' it was an ugly mess for sure am glad I wasn't reliant on the aviation flying game for financial support but some of yr words .................stick together, be realistic, support one another, stand united, and think of the big picture, and don't ever let the bastards destroy you. ..................would have been exactly what was being thought of when it all hit the fan & hence the strike went ahead!
I doubt very much we shall ever see that level of desperation agiain here in the flying business am sure ALL have learnt something from it (but not everything) but Aussies won't take it (poor T&C's etc) lying down, next time (if there ever is a next time) it must be done smarter, then yr words will fit better.

CW

CW

Pinky the pilot

5th Jun 2008, 10:55

SUIYA, I shall take you up on that!!:ok::ok: And it may be the half a bottle of good Aussie red I've had this evening that makes me propose the following........

When that person whose name I will not mention finally does shuffle off this mortal coil, to explain his actions to the God he does not believe in, why don't all of us arrange a get together and have an absolute blast to celebrate his demise!!:ok::E:ok:

Is there a seconder to the motion?

Marauder

5th Jun 2008, 11:02

Pinky Old Mate:

Yes. Your place or mine.

teresa green

5th Jun 2008, 11:06

Sadly Capt.Wally it was not the case. Perhaps as has been stated before, we did not have Pprune or the net to talk amongst ourselves, so the left hand did not always know what the right hand was doing. And without going into politics, Dear Leader was not the bloke to lead us. The likes of great minds and the ability of great leadership like Capt. Buck Brooksbank and Capt. Dick Holt would have seen a different outcome, (on this most of us agree) these blokes could charm a grapevine over a fence, and leave with a pot of money, and the ink dry on the paperwork before their victims had any idea they had been had. Sadly they were both outraged that all the work they had done to get Pilots a fair wage, and conditions at that time (it was they who started the bid system) go down the gurgler they walked away. We were NOT united, we did not all pull together, and some saw it as a chance to climb the ladder real quick, there were plenty of brown nosers in there. Hence the saying "united we stand divided we fall". That is the reason I made those comments.

Phlap1

5th Jun 2008, 11:11

I too will drink to the budgies demise.
But I can't help recall a statement by an old 89er at the back of an AOA
meeting around 1992. The president finished saying " if we stick together
we cannot lose" the old Ansett Checkie mumbled " where have I heard this
before"
It was Hawke and company who provided the circumstances, the
heroes who crossed the line were the true villains.
The same thing happened in CX early 1990's, some guys in the AOA
basically crossed the line by being gutless and not doing a damn
thing when contract compliance was biting.
The AOA remains a joke to this day.

Knumb Knuts

5th Jun 2008, 11:59

:= Terry the G - Dick (Holt) retired in 1978 and had no dealings with the poor little rich Hungarian listhper who raided in 1979. Brooksbank was around and you can be assured his sage advice was taken. That's history. :hmm: If you think the outcome would have been any different - that's c**p. Sorry mate. :E
Dunno about this year - but next there will be a major PU at a venue TBA. :D

Hoofharted

5th Jun 2008, 13:18

Prior to August 1989, there was a real union in place that would have put a stop to such things before they got off the ground - to everyone's benefit (except the cheap foreign labour and the 'lower costs at any cost' management)."to everyone's benefit" funny that. I recall being a new CPL at the time just starting to make my way in G.A when suddenly a stream of those who resigned from the "big end of town" came down to a rather large and established G.A operator and displaced those of us who had previously been receiving regular work. Ofcourse us youngsters were given the lecture about how being displaced was "to everyone's benefit", but somehow that didn't help with the loan repayments. And NO, I wasn't a scab, I chose to move overseas and try my luck there. So even after having been screwed by you I still supported your damned action.

So don't lecture me about having a selective memory because I remember all too well how it happened. It's just strange how the "poor me" brigade have a selective memory when it comes to recalling just how their own decisions screwed those of us just trying to get a toehold in the industry.

So now go ahead and heap sh1t on me if you must, it wont make much of a difference cause you already did that back in 89.

ACMS

5th Jun 2008, 13:41

Gee Hoof sorry we let you down, ruin your career did we?

It wasn't intentional on our behalf, but it sure was intentional by the Govt and the Airlines to ruin our careers.

Grow up.

Hoofharted

5th Jun 2008, 13:55

ACMS I would suggest that it is you sir who should "grow up". You made a decision supposedly as an adult and now refuse to take responsibility for it. You refuse to see what ramifications your decision had on many other people, instead choosing to blame all and sundry for how your life turned out and craving sympathy for it. Take responsibility for your own choices!! After all, your T&C's where so dreadful weren't they? Pilots tending farms, running businesses, attending university degrees in their spare time. Ring any bells? Why should my heart bleed for you when you did not give a "flying fvck" for those of us you put out of work?

Gee Hoof sorry we let you down, ruin your career did we? Your comment stinks of self-serving, self-absorbed arrogance which was probably when all is said and done, the major contributing factor to your loss.

No ACMS, you made your bed so now you lie in it. The sooner you accept that fact, the sooner you may find peace of mind.

Capt Wally

5th Jun 2008, 13:59

I feel for the likes of 'hoof' because I too was in the same boat as he in a way. Fortunetly I was gamefully employed in another industry but 'was' working towards greater things to fly full time when the floodgates opened. I too was at the time angry that a lot of guys from the top came down to our level & effectively flooded the market but have since understood that the hiring Co's where the ones that shti in our young faces, not the poor guys seeking work like the rest of us plebs at the time. Big bird aviation now is a diff ball game, it was once an elite job, sought after & well respected by all who wished they could fly also, now it's just a job that a lot of pilots can't wait to get away from & do other things they like.

CW

Sid Departure

5th Jun 2008, 15:09

Well come the 20th anniversary next year, I intend to put all aside and visit Sir Pete's final resting place. I simply wish to share with him a glass of fine Australian red wine and toast our differences.

However his glass will initially be filtered through my kidneys.

Fantome

5th Jun 2008, 18:33

Knumb Knuts

"The facts - just the facts St. G & the D
Terry the G - Dick (Holt) retired in 1978 and had no dealings with the poor little rich Hungarian listhper who raided in 1979. Brooksbank was around and you can be assured his sage advice was taken. That's history. If you think the outcome would have been any different - that's c**p. Sorry mate.
Dunno about this year - but next there will be a major PU at a venue TBA."

KK - Dick too gave sage advice to the troops '89-'90 but it was too late. Those open letters that he wrote, (paying himself for prominent space in the national daily), were a reiteration of his credo, his unwaivering dedication to the standing of the profession and his lifelong concern for it's members. Many times when the stakes were highest he walked the fine line between giving the membership his all and causing air travelers the least pain.

Rather than dance on grave(s) next year, maybe a trawl through the record for a good clutch of pithy observations from the centre and the sidelines would be a better recourse than more bile. "Don't talk about the war"?
Why not? There will always be lessons to learn, conclusions to be drawn. Opinions to consider. And opportunities to say out loud, "Good health!"

(Another fine line is the one the bodgie walks all the time - that thin fine line between bull**** and charisma. As John Clarke once had it "Rob, Rob, Roberty Rob, James Lee Hawke MP, Took great care of his image, For it was plain to see, If he was noticed talking to blokes, Whose boats did well on the sea, Millions of voters would fail to notice, The blokes were charging a fee.")

Casper

6th Jun 2008, 01:18

In the case of Bob Hawke, his action of laying at the feet of his friend (Sir Peter Abeles) the office of Prime Minister was unprecedented and should greatly disturb all Australians, irrespective of their political persuasion.

This was clearly a corrupt abuse of power and should be the subject of a Royal Commission in its own right.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hear! Hear!

fugitive

6th Jun 2008, 04:03

At the end of the day,the result would have been the same.The people who owned the company were only there to do an Allan Bond(remember Bell Resources)
They took over an asset rich company,Ansett,tossed the boss Sir Reg out then sold off the farm.Ansett eventually went under with $3.6 billion debt.
They eventually flogged it off to Air New Zealand with all its debt;I wonder who they paid off to complete that deal?

The union appealed to Howardhe told them to bugger off,but then his agenda eventually became obvious years later.Contract labour,except for pollies of course.
He used the laws enacted by Hawke to use on the wharfies.What a larf,I remember them abusing us outside the ABC in Brisbane because we were demonstating against the bodgie.
Howard did the same to them years later using the Hawke labor Govt laws.Union bashing was always the way.Look at it today,executives paying themselves tens of millions of dollars while denying engineers a measly 4% increase in their award.

Dixon is using the claim to bring in scab labour and it is a labor Govt again that is allowing him to do it.
Dixon says he has to look after the shareholders,wot about the workers,they create the wealth.
By the way,he is probably p%$$#d off that that sale of QF fell thru and the loss of the big payouts to him and his fellow board members.
What happens to the staff in Cairns,will they be compensated by QF`s decision to close the base,I think not.

Good luck to all,unfortunately without a union,this is the Airline system today.

ACMS

6th Jun 2008, 05:03

Hoof man...............I was only 23 at the time and my career was only just kicking off mate. I lost more than you, I tasted the airline career in Australia I had dreamed of for 20 years and then it was GONE in a puff of dust.
My fellow senior Pilot's may have been wrong and so might the union have been, BUT I chose to stand shoulder to shoulder with them in solidarity as a UNION. I didn't put my own selfish needs above others.
Now I can live with my decision BUT if all you've got to complain about is a few Airline drivers taking your GA job then.................
Remember a LOT of GA drivers scabbed into MY JOB too mate. It was NOT a one way street by any stretch of the imagination.

( GA drivers that had previously been REJECTED by AN TN EW and Ipec, one such individul springs to mind )

So back to you old wise one.............

teresa green

6th Jun 2008, 05:46

Knumb Knuts, you are right Capt. Holt had retired but that did not stop many of us ringing him and asking for help in any form. But he had the total S$#ts about the whole thing, no blokes worked harder then Holt and Brooksbank for the pilots, and what we gained. I really appreciated these blokes because at the time I was flogging a Trotter around Tassie and earning nuts, in fact the bloke next door who fixed power lines made a lot more than me. So you just imagine what the two of them thought. I had dinner in BNE with Brooksbank last year and it is still unprintable, to describe how he feels.

THRidle

6th Jun 2008, 06:41

T.G., Not much has changed.

I think if you were in Tassie now flying a trotter, the guy next door fixing power lines would still be on more money

nasa

6th Jun 2008, 06:58

Let me see.....31 intelligent and well constructed replies in the Thread directly above this (at the time of writing, Senate Inquiry Into CASA) and 68 (at the time of writing this) basically nonsensical replies rehashing what has been gone over on this site so many times before, where's the logic and what does it say for the current and future state of the industry, particularly from the sector that is supposedly indicative of the industry?????

Captain Dart

6th Jun 2008, 08:00

Can anybody advise where is the Fat Man's grave and which is the nearest pub? I have plans for next year.

airsupport

6th Jun 2008, 08:53

You guys cannot have it both ways. :=

Earlier on this thread I was ridiculed for saying there even was a pilot's strike.

Apparently you all resigned.

Now IF you all resigned, and did NOT go on strike, the people that replaced you are NOT scabs and you should not call them that, unless you really were on strike. :ugh:

Wiley

6th Jun 2008, 09:06

All of us, to some degree, suffer from selective amnesia, particularly over events as traumatic as 1989. (We, on the ‘non heroic’ side, who went down ‘with our honour intact’ [if precious little else] are no exception. We, and our leadership, took some very poor legal advice, made some very poor decisions on the strength of it and misread the situation dreadfully on more than one occasion, particularly in not understanding how far the other side, both airline management and government, [both of which were run by the same man – and I don’t mean the elected one] – were willing to go to win.) One example is the gentleman who is still expressing outrage about the greedy pilots destroying his relative’s motel business, something I can understand completely. When emotions that deep are involved, no one wants to listen to reasoned argument that puts your deeply held convictions into doubt.

That ‘The Dispute’ would have had a huge effect on the bottom line any business relying heavily on air transport (like tourism) is indisputable. However, a very high proportion of Australian new start businesses fail in the first 12 months – the figure used to be 85%, and I’ve no reason to believe it would have been any different in 1989.

- Would the Dispute have been the final nail for some which were struggling? Undoubtedly.

- Would some – perhaps quite a few – that did fail that year have soldiered on, perhaps even prospered without the Dispute? Again, undoubtedly.

HOWEVER, here’s where the selective amnesia kicks in. The Australian tourist industry, particularly in Northern Queensland, was already in serious trouble in 1989, long before the Dispute occurred. I know Cairns hotels were operating at an average of 15% occupancy rates – and that was before the Dispute. Many hopefuls had bought up big (and borrowed big) hoping to cash in on the expected huge inflow of foreign tourists that Australian Tourist Commission advertising campaigns in Europe, Asia and particularly America had targeted in the late 80s. (Many readers here will be too young to recall Paul Hogan’s “Throw another shrimp on the barbie” campaign, but huge amounts of Australian taxpayers’ money was spent on it and similar television advertising overseas.)

Did the ad. campaigns work, i.e., did the foreign tourists come in large numbers? Yes, they did. However, the vast majority were young backpackers, and not the high end, high-spending foreign tourists who would want to stay in four and five star resorts and hotels, which is the end of the market the vast majority of people in the Queensland tourist industry had targeted. Even ‘Mum and Dad’ two and three star motel operators missed out on much of the tourist dollar, because the backpackers would sleep on the beach rather than pay what most considered quite steep prices being asked by these establishments in Queensland at the time.

It might not be palatable for ‘nomorecatering’ and others to read it, but the Dispute (which translates for many, even after all these years on, into “those greedy pilots”), became the all-encompassing and only reason for their business’ failure for many in the tourist industry back then. As mentioned above, many were already in deep trouble well beforehand and many had gone into business seeking a market that did not exist.

SIUYA

6th Jun 2008, 09:41

As Capt Dart asks...........

Can anybody advise where is the Fat Man's grave and which is the nearest pub?

I also would also REALLY like to know too, so I can work out where's:

a) the nearest place to get the 6-pack of SP stubbies to help Pinky and me celebrate, and then to..............

b) relieve my bladder on the designated 'spot'.

Wiley

6th Jun 2008, 10:40

I have this mental picture of 1700 middle aged and elderly men (and, I suspect, the odd woman as well) being arrested for public exposure or indecdency the day after the Silver Bodgie's (undoubtedly State) funeral. Add littering to that as well, with all the empty champers bottles that might be left on or around the grave.

I have to admit, that for me, the notion has a certain attraction...

Given the numbers likely to be involved, they might have to organise a queue, ( a 'U' queue?) a bit like the line that used to be seen at Lenin's tomb back in Soviet times.

SIUYA

6th Jun 2008, 11:33

Wiley..........

I have this mental picture of 1700 middle aged and elderly men (and, I suspect, the odd woman as well) being arrested for public exposure or indecdency the day after the Silver Bodgie's (undoubtedly State) funeral

Awww c'mon Wiley! That few? There's more than that who, shall we say, have an 'interest'. :8

And as for public exposure or indecency the day after the Silver Bodgie's (undoubtedly State) funeral? Well, sorry Wiley, but I really can't imagine that 1700 (or so) 'brown-eyes' at the bastard's send-off would or could be regarded as anything but a fitting Australian 'tribute' to him that's well-deserved under the circumstances, so entirely decent I'd have thought. :8

Add littering to that as well, with all the empty champers bottles that might be left on or around the grave.

What do you mean by 'might'???? Definitely will be is the going to be operative 'case' I think, and you may as well add several thousand empty stubbies too I'd say! :8

As for the queue, well there's obviously going to be one. It'll be the FARK YOU type for the recently-departed I'd imagine. :8

FGD135

6th Jun 2008, 12:17

Why all the animosity towards Hawke and Abeles?

Those guys were doing what they had to do - and were expected to do. It was their job to do what they did. Of course they would go to any length - that was to be expected wasn't it?

The feeling, by some posters, towards these gentlemen appears to be of hatred. That is what I don't understand.

If you embark on a game of chess with somebody, who then beats you, you don't then hate that person for the next 20 years do you?

Ralph the Bong

6th Jun 2008, 12:22

Wiley.

I have read your post, above that relates to difficulties in the hospitality industry having naught to do with the Pilot's Dispute. I feel that what you have argued sounds like an excuse of from the guilty of the very, very real damage that was done to the many people who lost heavily during this period.

"Ah, the would have gone broke anyway, so it's not our fault": This is how your post reads. I wish you people would take responsibility for your actions and own up to the facts. In engaging in a 9am-5pm work to rule, AFAP was in contempt of the direction to return to normal duty hours; you BROKE THE LAW! Therefore, the writs for civil damages were issued against AFAP members who refused to work outside these hours. Remember that fact. You BROKE THE LAW and got sued.

Like other poster, I recall the many AFAP members who flooded GA after the mass resignation and took work away from GA Pilots. There are then some who have the temerity to then say that those GA Pilot who accepted work in the airlines were S.C.A.Bs.

Let's also not forget that many AFAP members also took contract work overseas, thus taking work from the many European Pilots who relied on contract work. I know several Pilots who came to Australia to take Airline jobs in 1989 who came simply because thay found that whilst AFAP was placing adds' saying there was a dispute and that Canandian and US Pilots should not accept employment in Oz, you guys were busy taking jobs that they were chasing in the contract world! In order to be consistant, AFAP and its members should have stayed right out of Aviation all together until black bans were lifted in March 1990.

Re-write history if you like, but don't give me that "we were gentelmen" routine. Sure Big Business and the Govt acted with vilainy, just don't piss on my leg and tell me that it's raining.

mostlytossas

6th Jun 2008, 14:13

Very well put Ralph. I also seem to remember in 89 we all ( what ever your occupation)were being held down in wage raises by Hawkes and the ACTU's accords. Got up to about mk7 I think and everyone was getting screwed as inflation was well ahead of wage rises. Then the pilots decided they were special and were going to break out of this arrangement as they were really professionals like surgeons and the like. Hawke and his govt weren't going to let anyone bust the accord fearing a total breakout would follow and called the pilots glorified bus drivers I seem to recall.
The ACTU in bed with the govt were also not going to back any breakout and asked the pilots to back down before things got nasty. The pilots union knew best though as they were controlling the countries air routes and could therefore not be done without ( so they thought ) and pressed on with the dispute. The rest is history with the biggest mistake they finally made by resigning on mass and therebye ending the dispute and allowing the airlines to recruit wherever they wanted.
The part that I really found disgusting about the whole thing was when the Govt allowed the military and overseas crews to come in and strike break this from a Labour govt no less.
As for the pilots union they really showed the country how smart and professional they really were.

Wiley

6th Jun 2008, 14:21

I expected there would be replies to my post quite a bit more intemperate than yours, Ralph - and expect that over the next day or two, they'll come rolling in. Your reply is a good example of what we're all to some degree guilty of - when you feel strongly about something, you tend to latch onto only what the other party says that proves your point, ignoring my admision that we, the stay outs, made some dreadful mistakes and by no means got it right on many occasions.

I'm not saying "they would have all gone broke anyway". The Dispute, without a shadow of a doubt, hastened the demise of many and caused many other businesses to go to the walll which otherwise might have survived. However, my recollections of the parlous state of the holiday/tourist sector in Cairns pre-dispute are accurate.

And adding: thanks for the history lesson, 'mostlytossas'. As clear an example of the old axiom "history is written by the winners" as ever I've seen. However, I hasten to add that some of your comments are uncomfortably true.

Teal

6th Jun 2008, 14:24

If you embark on a game of chess with somebody, who then beats you, you don't then hate that person for the next 20 years do you?A very lazy, simplistic analogy...:ugh:

Wiley

6th Jun 2008, 14:30

...especially if the other 'chess player' can move his pieces anywhichway he likes and uses rules that aren't rules at all.

nasa

6th Jun 2008, 14:40

amos2 I rest my case :ok:

Teal

6th Jun 2008, 14:50

However, my recollections of the parlous state of the holiday/tourist sector in Cairns pre-dispute are accurate.Correct Wiley, and it wasn't just north Qld and the tourist industry that were in a parlous state. After the boom years and excesses of the 80s, Australia entered 'the recession that it had to have' (Keating). What followed was excessively high interest rates, and the collapse of thousands of businesses including high profile corporations such as Quintex (Skase), Bond Corp, Pyramid Bldg Society, Tricontinental, Goldberg (Speedo brand, etc).

The pilots' dispute was just one small part of the national economic equation. Hawke tried to compensate by pumping tens of millions into tourism but the economy was just too sick to respond.

That's how I remember it anyway...:sad:

Eclan

6th Jun 2008, 20:15

I was only 23 at the time and my career was only just kicking off mate. I lost more than you, I tasted the airline career in Australia I had dreamed of for 20 years and then it was GONE in a puff of dust. I was just starting out too. Got a tad hungry when the dispute guys turned up insisting on their right to pilfer what little GA flying was available. Can anybody advise where is the Fat Man's grave and which is the nearest pub? Whilst I share the sentiment, spouting off about giving in to it simply exposes some pilots as being of blue-collar mentality and no better than those whose graves they can't wait to defile. What is ironic is Bob Hawke's record as ACTU President. Funny how the worm turned.

tinpis

6th Jun 2008, 20:41

Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.
-H.L. Mencken

Too true...

Capt Wally

6th Jun 2008, 23:20

was there ever a 'checkmate' in the game? No just two losers:bored:
Will be interesting when the 20 yr milestone comes up, will we be any smarter?

CW

Conscious.pilate

6th Jun 2008, 23:28

Back to posts 31 & 32
It would have been much better if you had PPRUNE 20 years ago.and
It's amazing to cast our minds back to 89 - and realise there was no internet (as a public utility), no email, no mobile phones (as we know the system now). What a massive difference the internet alone would have made.There was a dial-up bulletin board as I recall; a precursor of the internet.
It had the newsletters, information and even a "naughty list".
Not may had computers let alone modems way back then.

Blue Sky Baron

7th Jun 2008, 02:38

As someone who did not fully understand the events of 19 years ago at the time, I thought it was time I did a little research to more fully comprehend what really transpired and followed the link on post #28 of this thread and am reading the account as told by the author, Alex Patterson.
Assuming this account as written resembles a fair representation of what transpired I can't help but see many similarities with the current wage claim being made by our engineering friends.
I wonder is GD reading his plays from the "Abeles book of Aviation Management"? :confused:
Lets hope this time a healthy resolution can be achieved without the pain and suffering experienced almost 2 decades ago.

BSB :ok:

tinpis

7th Jun 2008, 03:00

Was a certain "section" of Alex Pattersons web snipped ?

milkybarkid

7th Jun 2008, 03:35

Try http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/ and read the whole site.

The raw facts seem reasonable but written from the perspective of someone too emotionally involved.

For example there was a list of those who helped the airlines but no list of those who remained true to the Feds.

Imagine a history of Scientology written by Tom Cruise.

FGD135

7th Jun 2008, 04:45

Imagine a history of Scientology written by Tom Cruise.

I too read the Paterson account and found it to be horrendously biased - which is a great shame considering how useful a document it could have been.

Hoofharted

7th Jun 2008, 04:49

ACMS your self-centred arrogance would appear to know no bounds. Your assertion that you lost more than me because you lost an airline job and I lost merely a "GA" job is a clear and concise illustration of the selfish pr1ck that you are.

So what if my employment was only "GA", it was still my only job and source of income. You lot had a choice, you CHOSE it, I did not. And further more you lot expected to "come down" to GA when you lost, expecting us new starters to just disappear. By what right do you believe that your need for employment was more important than mine. Your posts merely prove the complete and utter self-serving arrogance that pervaded the industry at the time.

While I agree that Hawk was a narcissistic hypocrite and prostituted himself in this affair (and what politician doesn't), your mindset beggars belief! You believe that by "divine right" all and sundry should have made way for you and your mates in order that you could achieve your own personal ambitions. Pilots, small business and any one alse you care to mention around the world had to give up their own aspirations in order to make way for yours. So this time around it's "bugger you" mate, you got what you chose, live with. Oh and a small dose of humility probably wouldn't go astray.

Stationair8

7th Jun 2008, 05:07

What are Alex and Chris Paterson doing these days, still in the flying business?

blueside^

7th Jun 2008, 06:40

Speaking of the dispute, does http://au.news.yahoo.com/080607/2/176f7.html ring any bells?

29.47 x 2 + 0.137767220902612826603325415677

Teal

7th Jun 2008, 06:47

Was a certain "section" of Alex Pattersons web snipped ?Unless I'm mistaken, I seem to recall that several years ago there was still a 'list' on his website.

I too read the Paterson account and found it to be horrendously biasedQuite understandable considering the likely financial and emotional impact on him at the time. You wouldn't be human if you didn't feel some degree of anger and bitterness about the whole affair. Look at post #66 about Brooksbank.

teresa green

7th Jun 2008, 06:56

I think it is a interesting note that this very day,and after what we are discussing that the Air Traffic Controllers are asking $60,000 (30,000 more than us), as a wage increase. I say goodluck to them, I hope they get it, I am sure I would be extremely dead without them, as would most of you, but my point is we started enterprise bargaining, (whether we knew it or not) and ironically there will be little fuss, just the usual tooing and frooing until a settlement is agreed upon. Not for us. We were called "glorified Bus Drivers" Hawke was out to protect his mate "the fat man" Keating told one of our reps that "we will get you bastards if it is the last thing we do" they would not negotiate, at all, they shafted us big time, and yes we walked right into it. Bigtime. But we (babes in the wood that we were) believed in democracy, that we would get a fair go, that we could negotiate, we did not imagine that Hawke would make it so personal, because of his mate. If you think back, Hawke's beloved wharfies could ask what they wanted, anytime, and hold up the wharves and bring the country to its knees whenever thay wanted, no sweat, it was never our intention to hurt other people, and we were appalled at the outcome. Most of us if we had our time over again would sure as hell, go another route, and miss the CAT, but perhaps when the last one of us is in a box and doing our last circuit, the aircrews of today and tomorrow can enjoy enterprise bargaining at our expense, perhaps it had to happen. Now does anyone know how much beer you need to drink to P@ss for fifthteen minutes. All I ask that I outlive Hawke so I can attend his graveside with the rest of my mates, and I aint going to bring any gladiolies.

Mach E Avelli

7th Jun 2008, 07:29

Hoofharted, hear hear! G.A. jocks were threatened with dire consequences if they scabbed. Many did not. I recall some AFAP heavies visiting an aero club where a CPL course was about to graduate and putting the fear of God into the youngsters. I recall a senior jet Captain hogging the left seat of a Chieftain, yet his super payout had to be in the order of over two hundred grand, which was a lot of money back then. I recall one sad f..k lining up at Ansett six months into it for annual reissue of his uniform, only to be told he didn't work there any more because the records showed he had resigned.

A37575

7th Jun 2008, 08:19

It's a long time ago but I clearly remember talking to a GA colleague who was over the moon about getting a 737 slot with Australian Airlines. He and a couple of mates had only been in the airline for a couple of weeks and was on a type rating course when an AFAP rep dropped by to say a friendly hello to the class. Rather like hello I'm from CASA and I am here to help you etc. His words were something like "Gooday - I'm Captain Joe Blow your local Federation rep - now you don't have to join the Federation, BUT if you don't join you don't fly...."

Two weeks later my friend was out of a job and back where he started in GA...

Fantome

7th Jun 2008, 08:34

What's the go with those minutes taken at the PM's Lodge in Canberra where the PM called in the airline heads to work out the strategy to cripple the AFAP? That meeting was held months before August '89 and has been called the conspiracy that set the whole disaster in concrete. The minute taker evidently leaked them to the AFAP but the legal advice was they were not admissible as evidence. (Was it Phil McConnell who had a handle on this subject?)

One of the "Pattersons' Curse" boys moved back to Tasmania, gave the flying away and concentrated on studying philosophy. (Same fella mounted a very effective campaign that revealed lethal spray drift from ag planes working the fields alongside the town of Forth. Would have been early '80s.)

TopTup

7th Jun 2008, 08:53

Best way to make something bleed is to keep the wound as open as you can with a dull, jagged, rusty knife.

Binoculars

7th Jun 2008, 13:44

Good grief, I find myself agreeing with Ralph the Bong. :confused:

When emotions that deep are involved, no one wants to listen to reasoned argument that puts your deeply held convictions into doubt.

I have come to enjoy reading Wiley's usually erudite posts on various subjects but surely he must have felt a certain degree of irony when posting the above comment? His follow-up post suggests he pleads guilty.

I also confess to a wry grin when I read Imagine a history of Scientology written by Tom Cruise.

A very apt description of Mr Patterson's site.

Does Kaptin M's original thread about 1989 still exist anywhere in the archives? If so it should be freely available for all new aviators to read to get some sort of understanding of the level of passion involved on both sides. One of the best and most useful threads ever on Pprune in my opinion, even if at least half the posts developed into abuse and repetition. In fact, the whole thread could accurately have been described by Wiley's quote highlighted above.

I had friends on both sides of the dispute, understood and sympathised with both positions, and never took a specific side except to mention that as a lifelong gambler I accept my losing bets as my own fault. I do the research, form my own opinion of the odds and compare that to what is being offered.

The pilots were somehow persuaded by what turned out to be very poor advice that they should resign. The pilots took their chance and lost. Many have been seeking to blame somebody, anybody else ever since.

It's also my belief that had they not enjoyed such a position of power in the duopoly for so many years, and not seen themselves as a special breed, their pleas for assistance from the ACTU may have met with a more sympathetic response. Like the AMA, the overriding political belief in the workforce was, and to some extent still remains so inherently conservative that it would have been fair to sum it up as union thugs were ruining the country, but their union was different.

In the end, somebody called their bluff. The hatred that engendered is still evident in this thread.

halas

7th Jun 2008, 15:16

Doing my usual walk around of Troughton Island after breakfast, l came across another fellow walking toward me. We stopped and introduced ourselves and turned out he was an 89er. This was January 1990, before 89er's had even been invented. He was working for Air N@#th and l for LL%*d's.

Before l could say what a nice day, he had spilled so much hate and venom on to the beach and even managed to threaten me about joining up with the big4! That's when l discovered that he was one of the fellows that took two mates of mine their job on a turbine.

This may not seem much today but back then the pay difference was huge and the foreseen progression became an in-your-face recession.

In Ll%*ds too we had these imposers take away commands, and most were only short term, but long enough to make many retrenched (even though they were junior on the seniority-list but with obvious higher qualifications), like me. I didn't resign, l was laid off.

I don't blame them individually, as they used what machinations they could to make ends meet. But the displacement of so many meant others lower on the food chain did without. And all with no recourse to climb the tree and improve their lot due to the threat of being shot down.

Who won out of that scenario?

I don't think about it too much these days except when this airline in the "pit" had 89ers making sure the airline didn't hire any "heroes".
Well now the filters are removed and many from the other side are here.

Must be interesting on a check ride when one meets the other.

halas

FO Cokebottle

7th Jun 2008, 19:04

Gents,

A couple of Beers under the belt after a 14 hour sector - but seriorsly, the only way to escape the post 89 induced vision (Hawke Keating, Abeles, et.al) is to have left the shores and become an expat.

You know - in Australia....you're going to be f@#ked over

That is my opinion...for what it is worth :uhoh:

Knumb Knuts

7th Jun 2008, 20:28

If you embark on a game of chess with somebody, who then beats you, you don't then hate that person for the next 20 years do you?

:eek: When you embark on a game of Chess, it is reasonable to assume your opponent is not using Kings, Queens, Bishops, Knifgts and Rooks in every square below the centreline, while you are endowed with only pawns. :8

As for Dick and his ad., and Buck, Dick's ad. was aimed at the public. It was well intentioned but long and in fine print, and probably few of Joe Public read beyond the first few lines of the larger print. Abeles and Bodgie Boy couldn't have cared less.

Buck's advice was listened to, but the endorsed leadership, and it WAS endorsed by the pilots, did what was demanded of them, and I'm NOT speaking of August 1989, but for at least two years before. Remember the Feb '89 meeting in the Coburg Town Hall - All the warnings of how tough it would be were presented - one character verbosely enouraged all to support the charge, then was the first to S*+b, when the vote was taken, there was one against any action (AND he didn't s+^b), and seven abstentions - all of them CC's.

It is hindsight with a capital H to suggest something other than what occurred should have been done. If that idea was so good, the means to implement it was in the hands of -guess who -the pilots.

For some, it was easier to scab. Especially when 43% pay rise was flagged in your face. :)

Mach E Avelli

7th Jun 2008, 22:56

Although there were quite a few airspace incidents when the foreign pilots came in on 'quickie' licence conversions, some of the guys they replaced were not aces either.
One guy I recall was in the habit of having a long and serious conversation with his instruments as he taxied out, even though his new employer had told him the policy was only to respond to checklist items, usually with just one or two words. He got so engrossed with his 'turning left skidding right' b/s that he dropped the main gear off the side of the runway. Another ex-astronaut type left the cabin doors open in monsoonal rain. When they powered up, everything in the cabin shorted out due to water in the hostie panel. His theory was to get to altitude and once it dried out in the rarified atmosphere, reset the blown circuit breakers. The ensuing smoke got everyone's attention, including the chief pilot's.
Yet another guy simply could not fly a circling approach. At night he was positively scary. Too many years of SYD-MEL in his A300. Two I met had serious booze problems, but whether it was old habit or the dispute that dunnit, I have no idea.
To their credit, many that went overseas did lift standards in places that sure needed it. But they often took on a Jekyll and Hyde persona - professional at work, vitriolic in the pub. Expats would go out of their way to avoid drinking with Aussie pilots.

Hoofharted

8th Jun 2008, 03:33

Just found this little gem in my private mailbox from "Bradley Marsh".

Good luck with your career
May you never sit in the seat beside me.:mad:

Some just don't get it. Not content on ruining their own lives and dragging everyone else around them down with the ship, they still gotta spew their bile, and continue with the anonymous threats and abuse as they did back in 89. Keep it up, the more you post abuse the more you prove the mindset that prevailed then and continues today. Good luck to you mate. :ugh:

obie2

8th Jun 2008, 04:23

One should never make the mistake Hoof, of tarring everyone with the same brush just because of one or two comments that upset you! :=

obie2

8th Jun 2008, 08:03

err...excuse me Tip...do you know something I don't? :ok:

...and where did this Alex Paterson bit on the end come from? :(

Hey, Moderators...do we accept false & incorrect posts?

obie2

8th Jun 2008, 08:51

Hey, moderators..forged and incorrect posts by the bloke above! Is this on?

obie2

8th Jun 2008, 09:12

The Mods, obviously, are MIA! Thanks guys! :=:=

Spotlight

8th Jun 2008, 09:20

Bino's is close. The lack of alignment with other Unions was telling.

Queensland Branch AFAP Executive: Thanks for nothing you bastards.

radaz

8th Jun 2008, 09:33

Was Alex Paterson of the B737 with Australian at the time?

Capt Wally

8th Jun 2008, 09:52

It won't be too long b4 both sides of the 89's will be a bunch of lonley old blokes spitting & cursing down at the local RSL. The new 89's will be those that where born in 89 & are about to step aboard a new world of aviation & into history where hard fought battles where won & lost well before they even sucked on a rubber toy plane and will only every read about those battles in the annuls of Australian aviation history.
There's that saying.............."we forgive, but we never forget"! How true the last:bored:

CW

radaz

8th Jun 2008, 10:02

There's that saying.............."we forgive, but we never forget"! How true the last:bored:

CW"

It sounds more like 'the hunters are being hunted'. :oh:

ACMS

8th Jun 2008, 10:22

I'm really sick to bloody death of you blokes that weren't directly involed in '89 telling us where we weny wrong and why we were stupid and gullable.

You weren't there and have no f:mad: idea what we all WENT THROUGH emotionally. It was hell guys, pure and simple.
Butr atleast I can sleep straight in my bed while the scabs ?..............well f:mad: them i say.

No where is my chill pill? I think I need one.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr f:mad: I'm mad.

BUT I've moved on and things worked out pretty well. That doesn't mean I'll forget the likes of people lke MC that pushed the rest of hard to "stay the course" while he was arranging a job back at Ansett. Nice type, encouraging us the "stick together" while at exactly the same time running away................I will never respect anyone like that.

ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ME.:ugh:

And he is only one example, there are lots more.

If I respect any scabs it's the ones that voted against industrial action and went back after saying they did not agree. Although they joined a Union and should have atleat tried to respect the majority vote.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I feel better now.

maximus

8th Jun 2008, 11:39

I'm really sick to bloody death of you blokes that weren't directly involed in '89 telling us where we weny wrong and why we were stupid and gullable.

You weren't there and have no f idea what we all WENT THROUGH emotionally. It was hell guys, pure and simple.
Butr atleast I can sleep straight in my bed while the scabs ?..............well f them i say.

No where is my chill pill? I think I need one.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr f I'm mad.

BUT I've moved on

Jesus ACMS if this is moving on I'd hate to see you if you hadn't :}

tail wheel

8th Jun 2008, 12:26

To some that participated in this thread, from both sides of the fence, congratulations on your conduct and contribution. Sadly, there is always that small minority of "professionals" that can't move on and let old animosities rest.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Woomera/Closed-1.gif

Thread closed until we think the needless heat has gone out of the argument!

Tail Wheel

tail wheel

9th Jun 2008, 02:00

We'll try again but at the first inappropriate post this thread disappears forever into cyber space!!!

:= := :=

john_tullamarine

9th Jun 2008, 06:27

Was Alex Paterson of the B737 with Australian at the time?

.. the brothers were AN.

Sadly, there is always that small minority of "professionals" that can't move on and let old animosities rest.

Whether animosities persist or not, they ought not to be pursued with vigour in PPRuNe ... the dispute participants will be/are approaching (or already have arrived at) senility and, as individuals, eventually will be long forgotten by the Industry.

Individuals, however, retain the prerogative of choosing with whom they might enjoy a drink ...

The Government/Airlines/Unions were able to do incredible damage to a group and the country.. I am mindful that the pilot group backed off rapidly once it all turned pear shaped .. but the other side would have none of that .. and that action (in my insular view) probably was responsible for the dreadful things which followed ....

This suggests that future pilot groups dare not forget the basic Industrial considerations relevant to the dispute .. lest they be tempted to commit similar acts of stupidity as were demonstrated (on both sides) in the lead up to the 89 stoush and the following six months or so.

If folk are honest .. I suspect that ALL would readily admit that, were the clock wound back with hindsight intact ... it would have been a very different dispute ..

Looking back, now, the whole thing was a disgrace/debacle/disaster regardless of which side ...

skol

9th Jun 2008, 07:33

Remember good old TJ?

www.aviationsafety.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=30

Captain Sherm

9th Jun 2008, 08:01

Here’s a perspective….just one but it’s all I’ve got……

Many things have defined my career. Some, each time I read about them, replay themselves so vividly in my mind I feel the pain and emotion of actually being there, yet I wasn’t…. the United DC-10 at Sioux City…..Neil Williams doing his inverted approach in a Zlin….the Korean 747 at Guam…..the American DC-10 at ORD….the BOAC 707 engine fire at LHR…..and many more. I give thanks that people like Davies wrote “Handling the Big Jets”….that Gann wrote “Fate is the Hunter”….that Johns wrote the “Biggles” stories, that St Exupery wrote “Wind, Sand and Stars” and “The little Prince”….that Bennett wrote the “Complete Air Navigator”…that Kermode wrote “The Mechanics of Flight”……that I saw “Dawn Patrol” and “The Dam Busters”, “The Great Santini” and “The High and the Mighty”, that I read “The Flight of the Intruder” and “Goodbye Mickey Mouse” and that Cecil Lewis put pen to paper for the generations that followed. I can’t forget flying with a survivor of the TAA Viscount crash at Mangalore….I can’t forget being interviewed by Chief Pilot who had flown a Convair down the Brisbane River with an engine in reverse pitch…….or a Chief Check and Training Captain who had rowed at my old school and but months later was flying P-40s in the desert…….

Thus with the “Dispute”. It happened. And I was actually there. I could no more forget it than forget my name or any of the thousand stories that make up the lore of aviation and sit in my treasure box alongside rapidly tarnishing wings and gold bars. I cannot forget the years that my children grew up without me close. I cannot forget polar routes across the Arctic, new airlines and lost airlines, wide-eyed junior F/O’s and the sheer joy of sunrise after long Pacific crossings and the Northern Lights. All so far from home.

Don’t ask me to “get over it”. Don’t ask me to forget that some colleagues voted in secret ballots to encourage me to persist….yet had already signed “contracts”…..that Hawke was ready to do, say or spend anything to do his masters’ bidding….and that many….my family included, could not see why I wouldn’t cross a picket line to save my life. I cannot ever forget that. I can never forget pilots who parroted the mantras “What’s the Federation done for me?”….”I made a decision for my family”….I just took my job back”….as though those oft-repeated words from an Abeles script could hide the treachery beneath.

But I work with those people. I have hired them, shared cockpits with them, checked them, counselled them, mentored them. They are humans…they did what they did. I did what I did….what I voted to do….what 20 years of active AFAP membership had prepared me to do. I sleep well at night. I stay away from melancholy and grief over lost years and wasted emotion….

But I cannot forget and nor should any pilot. Unity is strength…yet frail. Solidarity is the key….yet our weak point. It could happen again…now or soon or in some far distant sky…..but it could happen.

obie2

9th Jun 2008, 08:36

Good post Sherm and I can identify with all of that...except for the Convair down the river with one in reverse!!

Was that a 240, 340 or 440 Metropolitan?

And how many bits of it ended up in the river? :=:=

FGD135

9th Jun 2008, 11:49

Thanks, moderators, for reopening this thread. I had one more question, which john_tullamarine has now answered with this statement:

If folk are honest .. I suspect that ALL would readily admit that, were the clock wound back with hindsight intact ... it would have been a very different dispute ..

And to my earlier question of what lessons have been learnt, perhaps this answer from Captain Sherm is the most definitive:

Unity is strength…yet frail. Solidarity is the key….yet our weak point.

Fantome

9th Jun 2008, 19:55

Capt Sherm
Don’t ask me to “get over it”. Don’t ask me to forget that some colleagues voted in secret ballots to encourage me to persist….yet had already signed “contracts”…..that Hawke was ready to do, say or spend anything to do his masters’ bidding….and that many….my family included, could not see why I wouldn’t cross a picket line to save my life. I cannot ever forget that. I can never forget pilots who parroted the mantras “What’s the Federation done for me?”….”I made a decision for my family”….I just took my job back”….as though those oft-repeated words from an Abeles script could hide the treachery beneath.

But I work with those people. I have hired them, shared cockpits with them, checked them, counselled them, mentored them. They are humans…they did what they did. I did what I did….what I voted to do….what 20 years of active AFAP membership had prepared me to do. I sleep well at night. I stay away from melancholy and grief over lost years and wasted emotion….

But I cannot forget and nor should any pilot. Unity is strength…yet frail. Solidarity is the key….yet our weak point. It could happen again…now or soon or in some far distant sky…..but it could happen.

Words well chosen, but even more, palpably from the heart. I dips me lid.

Ndicho Moja

10th Jun 2008, 02:07

Capt. Sherm, thank you.

teresa green

10th Jun 2008, 06:06

A great post Sherm, could not have said it better myself. For all what happened some things I would never change. I had the privilege to be a young first officer and fly with the greats. Blokes who were from Bomber Command, who often shy about talking about their experiences, but after a skinful would sometimes share their lives and experiences. Blokes who had survived crashes only to be taken as POWs and placed in Stalag camps, escaped, got caught again, and escaped again. Blokes who spent the night floating around in the English Channel, Blokes who survived the 30 sorties, and went back again. They were tough hard young men, but had already seen to much, and by the time they got back and joined the Airlines, they were seasoned flyers and a inspiration to a young hairy arsed F/O like me. What a privilege to even share the same flight deck. I often thought in my later years, and having returned from OS after the dreaded 89 and finally ending up in QF, that some of the so called Sky Gods ( and I met a few) but only a few, where not even in the same league as these blokes, these condesending, overblown Pr%$Ks talking themselves up and thinking, mate you have no idea. You never had the chance I had, to fly with the best of the best.

milkybarkid

10th Jun 2008, 09:46

"Fate is the Hunter”….Kermode ...."Dawn Patrol” and “The Dam Busters”.....Convair down the Brisbane River...etc etc
The misty eyed sentimentality is almost too much.
But herein lies the clue as to why things went so badly.
The other side was reading Machiavelli and Sun Tsu and dreaming of world domination.

Max Bear

10th Jun 2008, 10:17

Any body know where the gentleman ended up ???

teresa green

10th Jun 2008, 12:27

Lets keep names out of it fella's there is enough hurt. We all know who was up who and who had'nt paid. Milkybarkid, you must be a young buck us old blokes cannot afford to be so cynical, I hope you can remain that way for years to come.

Tankengine

11th Jun 2008, 02:41

obie2

There were some mistakes on "the List", some names were removed, perhaps
more should be?

ps: I am not/never had been, on list.

Eastwest Loco

11th Jun 2008, 12:37

As to where the gentleman wound up, I do not know.

The last I heard of him was a relayed threat to disrupt operations at DPO (he lived in the area and commuted) and a message was relayed back through channels now forgotten to "try once, and make it a good one - it will hurt!

He never showed up for the alleged blockade. Just as well. None of us had anything personal against him.

Best all.

EWL

Eastwest Loco

11th Jun 2008, 12:49

Also - Milkybar

I think there is a little too much testosterone involved in your 10th input inot the room.

When you have had your Dad come home in tears to tell you that TFB that he had worked on was lost off Mackay, when you have been made redundant 3 times and had 2 Airline operations shut down, when you have your entire Airline shut down one night at midnight and are still waiting for recompense of your full entitlement, then you can be sarcastic.

I know I am only a groundie and the last instance metioned didn't happen to me, but that is my call. I stand by it. Realise your place in the food chain mate.

Best regards

EWL

tail wheel

11th Jun 2008, 21:28

radaz et al.

I had no association with the '89 pilot's dispute.

There will be no names of any individuals posted on PPRuNe.

Tail Wheel

milkybarkid

12th Jun 2008, 00:46

Teresa
Milkybarkid, you must be a young buck us old blokes cannot afford to be so cynical
Cynical, guilty as charged. Young buck, regrettably no.

EastWest,
I think there is a little too much testosterone involved in your 10th input inot the room.
Only the missus has ever mentioned the too much testosterone bit before, and that was some time ago.

Cheers

Metro man

12th Jun 2008, 00:59

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/pd89_document.htm

Wiley

12th Jun 2008, 03:38

Thread drift alert!! Nothing at all to do with the thread topic, but perhaps some will forgive the thread drift as I follow on from teresa green's misty-eyed post recalling some of the wonderful blokes we we so privileged to fly with, the ones who earned their wings during WW2.

Keeping with the 'no names' rule (for the pilots at least)... I was flying with one of the WW2 veterans one day when TV chef Len Evans came up onto the 727 flight deck. He mentioned that one of the most memorable days of his life was when, as a 10 year old schoolboy, he was let out of class one day in September 1944 to watch the huge number of aircraft and gliders fly overhead on their way to Arnhem. ("There were so many of them, they were like a huge dark cloud passing overhead.")

Old skipper softly buys into the conversation with: "I was flying one of those aircraft. I was skipper of a Stirling towing two gliders on the first drop."

Three jaws drop - Len Evan's, mine and the FE's. Until that comment, although we'd both known him well, neither the FE nor I had known anything about what the guy has done in the war.

After completing his 30 missions with Bomber Command, the same bloke went on to comlete a tour with 100 Group, the ones who carried the spooks who (usually) parachuted to support the French Resistance. I later pumped him for as much as he'd share with me and he told me how he'd LANDED a Stirling in an farmer's field behind German lines during the short-lived Resistance takeover of the Massif in southern France in the months immediately after D Day.

I often wondered how, after what they'd seen and done as very young men, these blokes weren't bored to snores tooling an airliner between Sydney and Melbourne four or five days a week. However, when I was looking at what seemed to be a very bleak future in late 1989 and early 1990, one of the factors that stopped me even considering stepping over into what I saw then as the enemy trenchs was the way I thought men like the one I have mentioned here would regard me if I did.

No1Dear

12th Jun 2008, 03:57

My initial thought on seeing this thread appear was "this will last 5 minutes tops".

Well done to all for keeping it open.

I for one was not flying in 89 and have not heard the various perspectives on the dispute before.

I think that it is important story to be told to a new generation.

cheers

fugitive

12th Jun 2008, 06:48

There is no use crying over spilt milk.As my wife used to say,get on with life.The worst part was not that as a person you couldn`t deal with the situation,it was what they were doing targetting families.
The worst time in my life was when heading overseas to a great job,but having to say goodbye to two young kids.
These were the people that ran Ansett.
For those people that complain about VG,QF,etc today,all I can say is that some of us tried to maintain a lifestyle that had been fought for by the likes of Dick Holt and his mates.
Blame the opportunists for your current industry job situation, at least some of us tried.

teresa green

12th Jun 2008, 07:35

Wiley, that was not PK was it. If it was the same bloke, he came to work one day with the biggest piece of flak that had come thru the flight deck floor, and nealy took out the family jewels. He uses it now to keep the lid on the chaff bin. (He keeps a couple of horses) He flew 38 sorties in a lanc. To keep in the current discussion the same bloke worked like a dog to get the pilots back to work, as he could see what was coming.

HotDog

12th Jun 2008, 12:24

Well so much for Work Choices, born in the Hawke Labor Government, aborted by Krudd and Gillard.:yuk: Pity most of the young who voted in Labor are not aware of the 89 history which is repeating itself in the QA LAME dispute.

twodogsflying

12th Jun 2008, 12:30

Those of us who where part of 89 will never forget and I will never forgive as well.

I have got on with life and continue in my chosen career.

Much has been said and participants try to justify their action, but for all of those reading this, just think of the following:

1. In the middle of 1991 well after the memorable 1st party at Frankfurt, 23 Ozzies where offered permanent jobs with Swissair. 40 had started as contract pilots. Something like 11 accepted and Swissair went away to finalise their employment. The company came back to them 2 weeks later and said they could not be employed as all their names where on Interpol as Political Dissidents, a hanging offense in most countries around the world. The Hawke labour government had put all our names on interpol as political dissidents shortly after we all resigned. We where working and flying in many countries around the world during this time.

2. On December 20th 1991 Compass mk1 stopped flying. The aircraft where ceased and the airline grounded. Much as been said of this as well and what does it have to do with 89? Well, the night the aircraft where ceased, it was done by TNT security guards by the authority of the Hawke Labour Government for unpaid Navigation charges. December 20th 1991 was also the date that Paul Keating rolled Hawke and took over the Lodge. This was Hawkes last act as PM to carry out the fat mans wishes.

On another note, the "List" exists and as stated before, all that are on it are only there by their own actions. In my dealings with anyone in the industry I do not know in a position of power, (CASA) I check the list. I do this so I know what I am dealing with, information is knowledge. You would be surprised who is turning up at CASA and how many of them!

Also, get a hold of "Australian Aviation" from 1980, the one where they interviewed Ables just after his take over of Ansett. I only came across this after the dispute in an Aeroclub. Too bad we did not read it before 89. Albes outlines his plans for the airline and a time line for it all to happen and it did, exactly as he predicted 9 years earlier with uncanny accuracy.

Sui Generis

PS. Hawke said where where nothing but Glorified Bus Drivers. Well in one sense he was correct. In the middle of 1990, a number of us where working in a small country in Europe. Just after we arrived, the pilots told us they where going to have a dispute with the management. We all thought "oh no not again", we should go along a tell them how not to do it. The interesting thing was the pilots where all members of the countries Bus Drivers Union. We had a laugh over that one, Hawke was right all along!

Binoculars

12th Jun 2008, 12:44

Sui Generis?

Ahh, so that's where he went! Welcome back, Kaptin M!

Hot Dog, where is Long Drive these days?

airsupport

12th Jun 2008, 19:40

2. On December 20th 1991 Compass mk1 stopped flying. The aircraft where ceased and the airline grounded. Much as been said of this as well and what does it have to do with 89? Well, the night the aircraft where ceased, it was done by TNT security guards by the authority of the Hawke Labour Government for unpaid Navigation charges. December 20th 1991 was also the date that Paul Keating rolled Hawke and took over the Lodge. This was Hawkes last act as PM to carry out the fat mans wishes.

Yes and although that may have been Hawke's last act for Abeles, it was NOT sadly Abeles last underhanded act. :mad:

Prior to the start up of what is called Compass 2 (Southern Cross), I was at McDonnell Douglas starting an MD 80 Course, as were many "dispute Pilots". On the second day of our course the Instructor was called out of the class, when he returned he asked us who on Earth was this *&^%$#@ Abeles? We told him, and he told us he had just been advised by McDonnell Douglas Management that Abeles had threatened them HE would never allow Ansett ot TNT to purchase another Aircraft from them IF they allowed us to have these new MD 80s. He said they had reluctantly AGREED. However they arranged for us to lease older MD 80s from SAS to get around Abeles, which was okay, except we ended up with very old MD 80s instead of brand new ones. :mad:

fugitive

13th Jun 2008, 01:00

Sadly,twodogsflying only knows part of the truth.I was involved in both the Ansett & Compass 1 demises.
What happened of course was beyond belief,so how could the ordinary joe blow believe us.It is only believable because we went thru it.
I wont go back to the Ansett drama as that has been flogged to death,but the Compass 1 drama was worse.What they did was illegal,but of course Hawke was in power and he was the one that ordered Compass to be grounded on the Friday.He knew there was a leadership spill on the Monday and Keating had the numbers.It was his last act on behalf of his mate Ables.
Anyone who doubts this,go back and read the front pages of the The Australian and Courier Mail around that period.
It outlined how they grounded Compass and it was planned twelve months earlier.
It was called Operation SEWN UP,that being for South East West and North.Brian Grey called it operation stiched up.
Dont believe me,go back to the archives and read it for yourself.
Murdoch canned it immediately.
Compass 2 never got off the ground because the liquidators made sure that it went to people who they knew were dodgy.
The Nauru Govt wanted to buy the company as did Garuda but were told no.Ferrier Hodgson got most of the Govt contracts so they wouldn`t have a bar of a ressurected and financially secure Compass 2.
As they say,read the history,it really is enlightening.

airsupport

13th Jun 2008, 01:22

That was the final nail in the coffin of Compass 1 yes, but there were a lot of earlier things done by Hawke for Abeles prior to that. :mad:

Some could be considered just legitimate business tactics (with a big stretch), but others were just ridiculous.

He tried to get the fuel companies not to supply us with fuel, luckily they said they would supply anyone that needed it and could pay for it.

He ordered CASA Inspectors several times to check all the aircraft documentation just as we were about to pushback thus delaying the flights, when I queried it with the Inspectors they said they always do it with ALL the Operators, until I said I was with Ansett for over 28 years and it was not done once, they then left embarassed. They tried to ground us altogether one day because our Ground Ops Manual on the line was not up to date, when I checked with Compass Technical it turned out it was THEIR (CASA) copy that was wrong. :ugh:

Just prior to the end, Air New Zealand were in talks to save Compass, until Hawke told them not to waste their time and money because he was about to introduce "open skies", so Air NZ backed down, but then after Compass 1 and Hawke were gone, Keating would not introduce it. :mad:

Bug Smasher Smasher

13th Jun 2008, 03:01

Hmm, that reminds me. 20 year primary school reunion coming up...

Teal

13th Jun 2008, 04:49

Yes and although that may have been Hawke's last act for Abeles, it was NOT sadly Abeles last underhanded actThere have been a number of well researched articles in recent years identifying the corporate psychopath. With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that some individuals in 1989 clearly fell into that category.

To borrow a recent post from Konehead in another thread about QF's senior management.....

What if your company CEO is a psychopath? What hope for us then?

Interesting segment on ABC science program "Catalyst" regarding corporate psychopaths.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stori...1.htm#interact (http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1360571.htm#interact)
To cut a long story short, these types do some harm to a company by driving "good" staff away. A consultancy group is employed by companies to seek out the corporate psychopaths in their ranks to try to find the cause of the staff exodus. Apparently corporate psychopaths "kiss up and kick down" the chain of command. Sound familiar?

Slasher

13th Jun 2008, 05:13

Ive done very well - have had more bonking and made
more bloodey money in 19 years than Id ever hoped to
have made in Oz in a lifetime. So have many others.

Still hate scabs, Hawke, and the rotting Fat Man. Who doesnt?

The current Oz airline industry is a monument to the ALP
and its ratbag hero of the past, not to mention the
ignorant unwashed masses who just watched and let it all
happen. The present ratbag will finish off the last bastion
of any residual form of standard and pride (the White Rat)
alltogether.

Wouldnt mind a 20th get-together somewhere in Asia
Pacific.

PS Sui generis KM! :ok:

teresa green

13th Jun 2008, 05:43

Another victim of Abeles was a great little Airline called East West, I happened to be in CBR the day it was announced that Abeles had purchased it. I was getting a ride on the jump seat of a East West Friendly Fockership back to SYD, and her young crew were exited at the prospect of getting a chance to being able to get into AN the parent company. Me, I just had an uneasy feeling that it was going to go bellyup, and four months later it did. Like Dixon, staff and their futures meant little to the Fat Man, and I often wondered what happened to that crew. I can understand some of the postings that have been recorded, are "get over it" "move on" and most of us did, I can also understand the impatience of young pilots with "not the strike again" but most of you have seen that it still sometimes exists on todays flight decks, the sudden quiet, when giving a another pilot a lift on the jumpseat to work, all of a sudden there is a distinct feeling of anamosity that was not there before, perhaps a refusal to acknowledge another pilot, just some subtle feeling that won't go away, and all of a sudden it dawns that a so called scab, has entered the domain. Regardless of what you believe, the reality is that this strike has become part of Australia's History, never before has a strike had such a terrible affect, most strikes went on for a couple of weeks, (and it was normal for the Brewerys and Australia Post to go out every Christmas) but this one became The Mother Of All Strikes, and compares only with the one in about 1943 when the Wharfies refused to load ships full of supplies for Australian Troops serving in the Pacific, unless they got paid x amount of dollers. You cannot get much lower than that. Yes, for you young blokes its boring, boring, boring but when a strike becomes a life changing event, not just a strike, for the pilots, their families, for all the other people that were sadly involved, the sucides, the marriage breakups, the destruction of familes, the parting of friends, it affects the whole country, and thats probably why we need to rabbit on about it sometimes, glad its over, glad we survived, sorry it ever happened, but we cannot ignore it and hope it will go away, it won't, and when the last one of us is doing his last circuit, it will go into Australian folklore as "The Pilots Strike of 89" forever in the history of Industrial Australia, and it will paint the Pilots as the bastards, and Hawke and his fat mate as the victims. Such is the way of the world. :sad:

B772

13th Jun 2008, 07:40

I understand there is a lunch planned by some ex AN staffers at the Recreation Hotel (170 Queens Parade) in North Fitzroy (Melbourne) at 1300Lt on Fri 15 August.

obie2

13th Jun 2008, 09:15

Well, all the 89ers should go then! :ok:

I'm sure we'd be welcomed with open arms 772, don't you? :ok:

A. Le Rhone

13th Jun 2008, 09:17

Now I guess I comprehend the statements of the uninvolved to 'get over it' so perhaps a user-friendly way to test your residual bitterness might be to take the following pshycological test (kindly borrowed from Jetblast):

This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand psychologically.

The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision, a bit like 1989.

Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.

Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line.

:THE SITUATION

You are in Australia, Canberra to be specific.

There is chaos all around you caused by a cyclone with severe flooding.

This is a flood of biblical proportions.

You are a photo-journalist working for a major newspaper (not a Murdoch one), and you're caught in the middle of this epic disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless.

You're trying to shoot career-making photos.
There are houses and people swirling around you, some disappearing into the water.
Nature is unleashing all of its destructive fury.

THE TEST:
Suddenly, you see a man in the water.
He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris.
You move closer... Somehow, the man looks familiar...
You suddenly realize who it is... It's Bob Hawke! You notice that the raging waters are about to take him under forever. You have two options:

You can save the life of RJL Hawke or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize winning photo, documenting the death of one of the country's once most powerful men!

THE QUESTION:

Here's the question, and please give an honest answer...

Would you select high contrast colour film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?

obie2

13th Jun 2008, 09:26

I think Slasher, the rich bonker, should answer that one!

airsupport

13th Jun 2008, 09:26

Would you select high contrast colour film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?

Who cares, as long as you take the photo. :ok:

milkybarkid

13th Jun 2008, 09:40

Gentlemen (and Ladies?) you passion perplexes me.
Your opponents were known quantities before the event.
Ables had solved industrial problem one way or another, even with US longshoremen.
Hawke always go his way at the ACTU and in government. And he was passionate about "the accord"
Tell me, if you or I picked a fight with Mike Tyson, who should be surprised at the inevitable outcome?

twodogsflying

13th Jun 2008, 10:23

There is one particular "Hero" who I despise the most.

On the night we all resigned at the AFAP building in Melbourne, the MBF set up a table so our super could be rolled over for those who had super, not everyone got payouts.

Anyway, this particular persons wife also set up a table to roll over super into her company, she had just started a business selling life insurance and super. A number of pilots did give their super to her as they thought they where helping an F/O (the husband) out by doing so. Over the next few months pilots kept giving her their money and once her commissions hit about $1M, said husband signed a contract and went back to work.

When the first anniversary party came around and about 200 people turned up to the pub at Frankfurt Airport, there where the usual discussions on where we ended up etc, but the main topic was did we do the right thing by not becoming a "Hero"? One of my close friends summed it up this way, he said:

"I look around here today and all the pilots here that I know, I would class as my friends. When I look at the "heroes", none of them that I personnel know would I class as a friend, so I am happy with my choice."

That one statement summed up the whole dispute!

milkybarkid

13th Jun 2008, 10:36

"I look around here today and all the pilots here that I know, I would class as my friends. When I look at the "heroes", none of them that I personnel know would I class as a friend, so I am happy with my choice."
The psychologists could have a field day with this one.
Start with text book chapters on "peer groups" and "causation"

obie2

13th Jun 2008, 10:59

Milkybarkid is very aptly named, isn't he?

Wiley

13th Jun 2008, 11:13

milkybarkid, sneer if you will, but with only one exception who immediately comes to mind, (BW, now unfortunatly dead - of natural causes), there was no one among those who went back who - before the dispute (note my emphasis) - I considered as someone I respected.

Almost to a man, they were either the 'wide boys' (Captain America, whose log book showed he gained 1200 hours during his 12 months in PNG without ever working full time for any local airline, immediately comes to mind), or the 'weak sisters', quite a few of whom would not still have been working for the airlines had not the Federation (mistakenly, I believe, if only in hindsight) fought to keep them in their jobs in the years preceeding the Dispute.

The weak sisters, who were among the first to return, were at least realists - they knew they'd never survive 'out there' in the big bad world. The likes of Captain America were regarded with contempt by the majority of their colleagues long before they gained their hero's badge.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

13th Jun 2008, 11:29

I was a young fella when the whole thing went down so my opinion and understanding is not that relevant. What I have seen though is how deep and traumatic the whole event was to so many people. I have a memory of sitting in a rural pub with two pilots who were sons of pilots involved in the dispute, their respective fathers were on different sides. As the beer flowed the conversations got more heated and fisticuffs were a possibility.

One fella spoke of late night phone calls calling his dad a range of offensive names and abusing him as a 14 year old for his dads actions. He spoke of having a last name that now won't get him a job in certain places because of who his dad was and what his dad did. He was proud of his father as every son should try to be but he was also uneasy that his dad was so hated for actions he maybe didn't get.

The other fella spoke of having no money for a fair period of time when he was growing up. He spoke of a continual tension between his parents that ended up with is dad leaving for good and him only seeing him 4 times a year. This affected him in so many ways and it was very obvious from the way he was he could have done with his dad about at that important time of his life.

The two blokes ended up being friends after a couple of those heated drunk evenings. It just touched me that this dispute affected so many lives for so long. I don't know what the lessons are coz I wasn't there and I think those lessons were too hard to understand unless you were part of it. I think Capt Sherm was about as close as I've heard. The only input I have as a dumb observer is safe skies to all who were involved, except maybe one person who's got the silver hair.

Pinky the pilot

13th Jun 2008, 12:41

Like a few previous posters, I am thankful that this thread has managed to get so far:ok: without degenerating into personal abuse and thereby sending the thread into oblivion.

In 89 I had held a CPL for three years, had just gained a class 1 Instrument rating as it was at the time, and had been promised a full time job flying night freight IFR.:ok:

Unfortunately, I did'nt get the job! An Ansett 727F/O 'resignee' scored the position. I was as mad as hell at the time, to the point of letting my AFAP membership lapse and screaming abuse at the AFAP girl at 'the other end of the phone' at the time when she offered to allow me to pay my unemployed subs in installments. Whoever you were Ma'am, I humbly apologise!

In the meantime, I have since built a bridge, got over it and moved on! I enjoyed greatly where my career took me (to PNG, albeit for a far too short period when I think of it!) and the small bits of what I have had since.

To sum up I offer the following quote from the previous poster,Whiskey Oscar Golf.
The only input I have as a dumb observer is safe skies to all who were involved, except maybe one person who's got the silver hair.

Amen to that!!! With special note to the last part!:ok:

Fantome

14th Jun 2008, 00:09

teresa green said:
Regardless of what you believe, the reality is that this dispute has become part of Australia's history. Never before has a strike (or industrial dispute . . ed.) had such a terrible affect. Most strikes went on for a couple of weeks, (and it was normal for the Breweries and Australia Post to go out every Christmas), but this one became The Mother Of All Strikes, and compares only with the one in about 1943 when the Wharfies refused to load ships full of supplies for Australian Troops serving in the Pacific, unless they got paid 'x' amount of dollers. You cannot get much lower than that.

Yes, for you young blokes its boring, boring, boring but when a dispute of this magnitude becomes a life changing event, not just a strike, for the pilots, their families, for all the other people that were sadly involved, the suicides, the marriage breakups, the destruction of families, the parting of friends, it affects the whole country, and that's probably why we need to rabbit on about it sometimes.

Nail on the head again TG. Your post and Captain Sherm's before are among the best summations of the personal side of 89 yet advanced. Here we are, 162 posts in twelve days, and mostly refreshingly calm, reasoned, with telling anecdotal stuff, and only a little ineffectual spray from the Hipshots potting away with their cork rifles.

(I apologise TG for interfering with the above quote to the extent of adding "dispute" to "strike")

MTOW

14th Jun 2008, 02:46

Ahh, 'Captain America', a.k.a. 'FIGJAM' ("**** I'm Good, Just Ask Me"). I think there'd be quite a few who remember that individual very well indeed for his history pre-dispute.

I have to agree that looking at the pre-dispute pedigrees of those who got all heroic and those who didn't, there weren't too many among the heroes who most fathers would have been pleased to have their daughter bring home with stars in her eyes. (Just an admittedly not unbaised opionion.)

Back to safer ground, I once had a copy of "Operation Sewn Up", the multi-page, military-style plan to wind up Compass 1 in the week before Christmas. Surely there is someone out there who still has a copy who could post it here for the education of those who haven't seen it. Some might find it incredible that a government agency attempting to recover unpaid fees would close down the debtor in the week before Christmas, when that debtor would rake in much if not more than was owed. Some cynics, particularly after reading the 'Operation Sewn Up' document, might be forgiven for thinking there was another agenda altogether in play in closing down Compass 1 at that particular time. Surely not.

I also seem to recall that the man entrusted to carry out 'Operation Sewn Up' remained (and possibly still remains) a high profile figure in Australian Aviation for some years after that event, whose 'unbaised' opionion was often sought by the media on all topics regarding avaition.

ct2k

14th Jun 2008, 05:21

My Account.....

Around my 7th birthday, my dad who worked for TAA, said to me and my two sisters that he had lost his job because of a dispute. I didn't really know what that ment and for a few months after that i remember going to these random places, waiting around in the AFAP office, going to the airport and protesting and clicking these little metal things at people. It was quite hectic but dad said everything was going ok, but it wasn't. A few months later he told me that he's not allowed to work in Australia anymore and now had to move to a country called Saudi Arabia. He said he had to start a new job, and it will be the best thing to do for us kids and mum. A few weeks later he was gone. After he left we saw him about 5 times a year after spending 2 days travelling to get there. Mum, the girls and I tried living there but it was no place for women so we moved back home leaving our dad without a family again. I remember when the times got tough, him crying on the phone as he said how much he missed us and how he wished he was back at home. I also remember mum yelling on the phone about him not being around and having to raise 3 kids by herself. As the years went by without having him around, the pressure got too great for the marriage and they separated. A year later his father died suddenly while he was still in the sand pit, he never really got the chance to say a proper goodbye.

It has been really hard to grow up without him and I have suffered in more ways than one as a result. In a way I wish he had s*****d so we could have him around and be a normal family. But I am so proud of my dad and all the blokes like him who stuck by their guns and done what they thought was right. :D :ok:

So I guess he/we have had it though, but he is the happiest and nicest bloke you will ever meet, when I talk about 89 he says it’s all in the past and not too worry about it. But he will joke and laugh about how much he hates hawkey and the fat man. He still lives overseas but a little closer and is home a fair bit these days which is good.

As for me I have followed in dad's footsteps and took up flying, silly I know after all he has gone through, but because I idolised the old man so much and after a trip to Oshkosh when I was 12, I knew I had to fly regardless. And Like dad I have had to move away from family and friends in pursuit of buildhing hours and my flying career, much to the despair of my girlfriend. I guess we never learn, but flying does that to you. I just hope I never have to make a decision that all you 89ers had to make, but i think its inevitable. At least mine will be an educated one.

SeldomFixit

14th Jun 2008, 06:55

The passage of time has dulled an already dulled old mind but was FIGJAM also Stormboy ? :p spell check is my friend :ok:

Spaz Modic

14th Jun 2008, 08:08

:ok: Sat in the jumpseat one day behind one of our true gentleman and WW II captains one day. StormB or FJam was the FO and flying the jet and the approach was bloody frightening until the captain took over. Over a beer a couple of weeks later I mentioned to the said captain that the pucker factor was extreme until he took over. He replied that he didn't really mind the Japs shooting at him - he just didn't want to share a cockpit with that idiot again.:\

7x7

14th Jun 2008, 09:14

A legend in his own play lunch box. Mods, you wanted ancedotes?

Anyone remember his "skiing accident", where he was off work (to many people's great relief) for months with a broken foot? The "skiing accident" was actually the result of a stiletto heel, with angry female foot still inside shoe, ground at max force into his instep by a lady who (at last) saw the light.

If there were degrees of "heroism", 'Stormboy' had the top rating with knobs on. Anyone remember where he got the 'Stormboy' name from? Pre-dispute, I believe.

amos2

14th Jun 2008, 10:03

One of the good things about Prune is that nobody is free of ever being caught out! A bit like the Media /Della Bosca/ Neil thingy going on at the moment!

A certain ex Ansett flight dept type who is currently attending, from time to time, a regular retired pilots get to gether chooses not to let on that a member of his family did the "hero" thing some years ago and took a "hero" position with Ansett!

Of course, we all know that Ansett went broke. But how many know that the "hero" is still amongst the flying fraternity on the Sunshine Coast with a well credentialed company?

stable approach

14th Jun 2008, 10:12

ct2k
I think your post neatly summarises the experience of many families (mine included) post 89.
I sincerely hope your aviation career turns out to be less turbulent than your dad's.

permFO

14th Jun 2008, 13:07

Who cares about about figjam, strawberry jam or any other jam! The posts from ct2k and stable approach highlight the forgotten people from the dispute - the families. They were as much a part of it as the pilots were, yet had very little say in what subsequently happened. I applaud ct2k's openess in how the dispute affected his family. It's stories like this that should remind us that there were no winners.

HIALS

14th Jun 2008, 23:53

Before I get to the main thrust of my post today – I want to go back to the start of the thread. Am I going to do anything to mark the 19th year? No, I’m not. The first anniversary in Frankfurt was extremely memorable. I just reckon that 19 years is a non-descript marking point. I think something should be done on the 20th though.

Now for my contribution to thread drift.

I had forgotten that the Hawke Government listed us as Political Dissidents.

For those who think that the phrase is ‘cool’ or imbues some kudos because of its association with romantic characters like Gandhi, Solzhenitsyn and Nelson Mandela – let me remind you that it can be the ‘kiss of death’ on any immigration application unless you are claiming to be a political refugee and living under the threat of physical violence. The Swissair guys found this out.

It is also interesting, as an insight into the mechanics of the dispute, to remember that our Government went to the effort of listing us as Political Dissidents. It is a label that was intended to have International impact. In keeping with so much that the Hawke Government did (with the connivance of the Kelty/Crean ACTU) it was a vengeful thing to do.

Or was it a deliberate strategy – to inhibit our ability to move abroad? As we said we would do, and which many or most of us ultimately had to do.

I think it was a mixture of these things. A post hoc act of revenge on the one hand. And a tactic that applied pressure on us to submit to the authority of the Government, and return to work for Abeles and Murdoch under the auspices of the ACTU because it made going abroad more difficult.

I hope younger people, or curious outsiders, can understand why attempts by some commentators to ‘neatly’ claim that ‘we all resigned and there was no dispute and therefore no sc@$s’ is questionable. Such a clever interpretation is too conveniently sterile. Because it begs the question – if there was no dispute, then why did the Government go to the effort of having us classified as Political Dissidents? Why did our Government reach their hand out across the world to try and smite the career prospects of people who simply resigned a job and moved abroad seeking alternative employment? Because we were Political Dissidents in the eyes of the Hawke Government

And thus – there was a dispute that lasted well beyond the date of our mass resignations. It lasted well beyond the borders of Australia. Accordingly, readers here should be suspicious of people who portray the dispute as miraculously concluding on that fateful night 19 years ago when we all resigned.

airsupport

15th Jun 2008, 03:07

we all resigned and there was no dispute and therefore no sc@$s’ is questionable

As I pointed out on this very thread earlier, you can NOT have it both ways.

You claim there was NO strike, only a dispute and then you all resigned.

IF there was NO strike, then obviously there were NO scabs.

ONLY if you were on strike, which apparently you weren't.

Also I have much sympathy with some of the earlier posts about the terrible effects on Families etc, partly because some of us who had no say in the dispute at all have had to go through similar, and do NOT really want to be reminded of it every 5 minutes.

Because of your dispute/resignations I also had to resign from my job of some 28 years, for the same reason as you guys, to save MY house. Through NO fault of mine some subsequent jobs didn't last (Compass 1 and 2), and I found myself having to work Overseas and away from my Family for long periods too, ironically working mainly with ex dispute Pilots.

As others have said, this was devasating for my Family and me too.

So while I can understand your anger and regrets, and none of you have more contempt for Hawke and Abeles than I do, PLEASE get on with Life.

tinpis

15th Jun 2008, 03:21

Bloody glad I threw my license in the fire in 1989 :ok:

obie2

15th Jun 2008, 08:23

Hey! airsupport... you've lost me, mate.

Explanation, please.

You're one of us...but you're against us?

What are you on about with your last post? :confused::confused:

airsupport

15th Jun 2008, 08:47

You're one of us...but you're against us?

Wrong on both counts.

I didn't say I was against you, and I am certainly not one of you, assuming you are a Pilot.

Just that this dispute ruined my Life, as it did a lot of others in the Industry at the time, and I am sick of being reminded of it constantly.

obie2

15th Jun 2008, 09:02

Ok! mate...I think that makes sense?

Want to tell us more?

I think you should! :confused:

parabellum

15th Jun 2008, 11:51

Airsupport - do you mean your life was ruined or changed? Given the impending onset of the LCC both the Ansett and TAA model were heading for the tip anyway, things were going to change big time, no way they could have continued indefinitely as they had done prior to 1989.

Capt Wally

15th Jun 2008, 12:35

'para' I think yr thoughts are more to the point here than most think. yr correct I believe the situation prior to WW3 was not a 4ever model, something would have had to give. I think the pilots dispute was probably a way to break that model in the eyes of the Govt of the day, an opportunity & at the time they (Govt) may not have even been aware of it.

One thing is for sure tho & set in concrete for life, the silver haired fool & the Fat man will go down in history as despicable individuals with a lot of blood on their hands.

CW

Teal

15th Jun 2008, 12:42

Airsupport - you keep telling everyone to get over it, but you've made 10 posts to this thread (so far)! :confused:

At least some of the facts of the dispute have been re-stated in the posts - for the benefit of those who might have forgotten or never knew. The heartfelt anecdotal accounts of the terrible impact on individuals and families might be a revelation to younger pilots and others interested in industrial relations and politics.

Teal

15th Jun 2008, 12:54

the Fat man will go down in history....The Wikipedia entry is interesting - especially the third paragraph under 'Life'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Abeles

Not quite what you would expect for someone with the post nominal letters 'AC' and 'KBE'...:ugh:

SeldomFixit

15th Jun 2008, 13:08

On the contrary Teal, that is precisely what I'd expect to see :suspect:

Al E. Vator

15th Jun 2008, 22:23

ct2k...that was a lovely story well told. Good luck to you and your dad.

Wiley

16th Jun 2008, 01:33

I'm sorry to throw a spanner into the works of the "how much we all suffered" comparison scale, but from my children's point of view, they say that in the long run, it was the best thing that ever happened to them. (Note that phrase "in the long run". They wouldn't have said so for the first year or so.)

They became children of the world, were educated in places and in schools they would never have seen, became and remain close friends with people from places in the world they would only have (maybe) heard of from books and television, and have since travelled to and worked in places I very much doubt they would have had the confidence to go to had they remained in suburban Melbourne to complete their education.

As for their Dad... well, ever since Adam thought that apple might taste better than the fruit on offer at the Gaden of Eden free store, when did kids ever appreciate what their Dads went through? Would I have done it differently knowing what I know now? You betcha. Would I have gone back? Don't think so; even after all this time, even with all the grief I had to go through, (and although I consider myself among the very lucky ones in the long run, [there's that phrase again], there has been more than enough grief along the way), I still don't think I could have looked at myself in the mirror to shave had I joined the heroes.

But as I said, in the long run, I was one of the lucky ones. I appreciate that there were many who weren't so lucky.

Capt Wally

16th Jun 2008, 08:00

interesting reading actually, brief but interesting. Doesn't surprise me in the least of his background, often highly successful people didn't get there by being honest & nice!
His other partner in crime will join him soon no doubt, then too can we read about him, although am sure few will shed tears!

CW

SeldomFixit

16th Jun 2008, 08:39

I love thinking of Blanche having to change his old man's " depends " for him but that's just me - wierd, kinky, noice, different :ok:

410

16th Jun 2008, 09:03

You reckon 'Blanche' might be a rather apt name for her at that point of the day?

..........

I think that when the bodgie finally falls off his perch, all the usual suspects like Phillip Adams et al will write their glowing testimonials about him. However, I suspect there'll be many in the labour movement (and the Labor Party too) who'll be more than a little muted in their praises of hawke. What he did in 1989 was set the scene for the measures John Howard later took in the workplace - and effectively blew all the wind out of the labour movement's sails, (long with the bottom out of their hull!), stifling any protest they might have made after they had stood by and watched him use the tactics he employed against a union.

Someone has used the phrase before: it was a Pyrrhic victory for hawke and the fat man (not too many even remember Jimmy Bow Tie after all this time).

The psych experts from the US that abeles brought in before the dispute told him the pilot group would fold in four days. The dispute, despite the glib comments of those who insist it was over the day we all resigned, lasted nine months. Its effects are still felt, certainly personally, but even moreso at the industrial level within Australian Aviation, to this day.

(Note: the absence of upper case letters for certain names is not a repeated typographical error, but my mild protest. Certain people are to this day so low in my esteem that they don't rate upper case letters in their names.)

obie2

16th Jun 2008, 09:15

Well, you did put "jimmy bow ties" in capitals but i'm sure we'll all accept that as an oversight! :ok:

410

16th Jun 2008, 09:41

Not oversight, obie; my point being that within the industry, he's so largely forgotten that he doesn't even rate the approbrium we all still reserve for hawke and the goanna.. sorry, the fat man, hence, he can have capitals. (The goanna 'slip' may take some explaining to the younger readers here.)

Casper

16th Jun 2008, 22:33

Wiley,

Could not agree more with your comments. Hopefully, there were some more "lucky ones" as well.

410

When the bodgie falls off his perch? Yes, that will be a BIG day and will not be diminished by any teary comments from any journo or labor stalwarts.

Stationair8

16th Jun 2008, 23:41

Just watch all the Labor big men cry like Bill Kelty and co and then the top end of town Laberil's, like old Lindsay Fox will shed a tear for their lost comrade Bob, and tell us what a great bloke he was for the nation.

Then some journalist will cover all his achievements and how he worked singlehandedly to unite Australia under the accord, but will conviently forget to mention the 89 dispute and how Bob and the ALP and their mates shafted a group of people, and replaced with imported and local labor on a contracts, using the taxpayers money to keep his mates airline running by using the military etc, doing its very best to destroy the pilots union, getting the tax office to do lots of indepth audits on anyone who was a pilot in the following years after the dispute.

On you R. J. Hawke your a fecking legend!!!!

teresa green

17th Jun 2008, 07:34

I imagine most of us feel like his ex missus feels. Now she WAS a legend!:D

SeldomFixit

17th Jun 2008, 10:21

Is Hazel still with us ? Would be great to have someone passing fresh tinnies :D:D:D

Fantome

17th Jun 2008, 20:45

The thing is about RJLH there has been no rational debate about what he really stood for throughout out his long adversarial career as an industrial advocate. It is hard to deny that at one stage he would have had clearly formulated views as to what is needed to prosper a democratic nation. His long , varied and extraordinarily active career began with his appearance as an impressive junior before the full bench of the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission arguing the national wage case. Whether he is admired or despised today is irrelevant to his early achievements as a man who advanced the interests of the worker against the corporations and the employers. Maybe it can be argued that the worm had got to the core at an early stage and that he was never destined to fill the shoes of statesmen such as Curtin or Chifley and that absolute power would corrupt absolutely. But to do that requires a great deal of study and research so that glib gut reactions are not the keys. As far as his role in the Pilots' Dispute goes one thing that can be be seen with perfect 6/6 hindsight is that he was never going to be sympathetic to the pilots' case and that there can be no great shock horror now that he sanctioned the use, in effect, of the most excessive penal sanctions in modern Australian industrial history. The one constant in industrial, societal and political affairs is change. Those involved who cannot read the wind and foresee the ever changing elements have ever been of little or no use at the helm or on the bridge. ( Now if B.McC. had passed command over to JR, what then?)