We're all *****d! [Archive]

belongins

2nd Jun 2008, 17:02

WWW

"Major house price crash = major recession"

Why?

The current house price 'crash' is just an adjustment of prices back to standard values following a period of stupid greed fuelled price soaring - nothing more.

Typically house price 'crashes' follow not proceed recessions dont they?

Recession > manufacturing/service sector (seen as we dont make anything anymore) downturn > job losses > mortgage difficulties > house price crash?

Manufacturing/service sectors havnt crumbled, people arent being laid off left right and centre.....no recession as yet AFAIK.

Inter-bank issues exist granted - not really indicative or a result of the UK economy IMHO. In fact the UK economy has dealt with this pretty well (so they keep telling us) - which maybe indicative of it its strength.

Oil prices -woooo - Not a shortage lead issue AFAIK. This is a supply issue. The OPEC countries are squeezing us by strangling thier supply/prcessing rates. Might end in war (in which we all jump out of our airliners (when/if we ever get in one:)) and into our Typhoons....yay) but not a recession:)

Too gloomy for my liking although i am with DJ here in that I think the train-headlight reference is very good:ok:

Additionally I saw one front page on Sunday (the S.Times maybe) 'shouting' how the summer holiday trade or lack of will cripple the airline industry.....why?......beacuse a fair to Malaga for example will have to increase by £5 per passenger due to increase prices in fuel...ohhh wow..I can just see them queing now in the 'OMG i am not paying that line.' :ugh:

B

ix_touring

2nd Jun 2008, 17:17

1> Lower/lack of house equity (via a crash or readjustment) will mean less wanabees...

2> Tighter economic outlook will likely slow the modular wanabees too (less/no money for school if petrol and diesel is at $1.50+ litre and the Tesco bill is 40% higher! etc etc

On the up side:

3> People still retire and those seats still need to be filled.

4> The BRIC nations/Asia are in a major growth stage in aviation, jobs there if you're willing to commute/relocate.

And in the middle...

5> tighter outlook and issues 1 and 2 could mean cheaper integrated courses?

iX

belongins

2nd Jun 2008, 18:21

Good point DJ
To bolster the argument that the |UK economy is quite strong at the moment - Just think of the revenue Gordon has moused away on the back of the petrol/deisel price hikes too.
Apparenyly the coffers are about to burst hence the argument to scrap the forthcoming further rise!

Adios

2nd Jun 2008, 18:27

A side benefit of the high oil price is that Middle Eastern countries have even more money to spend on air travel. Their airlines are booming and there's no way they can fill their flight decks just using indigenous pilots. Qatar plans to double their fleet in two years, Emirates and others are booming. Unlike India, they are actually building the infrastructure to support the fleet expansion. The Chinese are also building infrastructure quickly, though perhaps just for the Olympics. India hasn't figured this out and their growth is not sustainable until they do. Every Captain these airlines hire away will mean the EU carriers promote from within and take in a new FO at the bottom. This alone won't turn it around for every wannabe, but it is likely to be less dire than some here predict.

As for the EasyJet induced article, I wonder why they might want you to think everyone but them will go to the wall? I guess I better book my summer holiday with EasyJet since they'll still be around in August and I won't be left holding a worthless ticket. Oh yeah, hasn't anyone ever heard of traveler's insurance covering airline bankruptcy risk?

Wee Weasley Welshman

2nd Jun 2008, 18:31

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I suggest the period 1989 - 1993 for a starting point in Wannabe education.

WWW

Tootles the Taxi

2nd Jun 2008, 21:36

WWW

I suggest the period 1989 - 1993 for a starting point in Wannabe education.

The earlier comment regarding McDonalds is not far off the mark - several colleagues & I spent an enlightning 3 years during this period working in the local Tesco's on the nightshift trying to make ends meet anticipating a right-hand seat in our sponsor's airline; it was almost 5 years before we got the call by which time most of us had found a flying job elsewhere. Of the original 44 cadets, only 25 were given a job though, as the unsuccessful were not seen to meet the company's 'new' recruitment profile. So a long time to wait for nothing.

Incidentally, we were all qualified flying instructors sitting on approx. 1000hrs & our sponsor was a well known British company who formally painted what looked like a lady in a wheelchair holding a pitchfork on the tail.:}

During that period, there were literally no flying jobs in the U.K. for guy's with our experience level.

Did you want fries with that....

assymetricdrift

2nd Jun 2008, 21:49

As much as I wouldn't want to dis-spirit wannabes, I am going to agree with WWW here.

The industry is currently very very bleak, and is going to remain so for a considerably long time to come. When fuel costs come down and economic recession has had its stay, then it will pick up again. However, at the moment, as we were discussing earlier on, this is not really the time that you want to be leaving an FTO without a job offer at the end.

Maybe more wannabes should consider instructing for a while - but so many get seduced by the thought of flying a jet.

I have a job with a major UK carrier, however, I am worried myself about what the rest of this year is going to bring.

Take heed of what WWW says here guys. I have a feeling that it really isn't far off the truth.

orangetree

2nd Jun 2008, 21:58

WWW isn't far off the mark. There will be jobs though...just not in the UK. This summer isn't the problem as there are plenty of airlines hedged but next summer will see serious pain unless Fat Gordan's Fairy Godmother can wave a magic wand.

Brainstorm

3rd Jun 2008, 07:25

I am not sure oil prices will drop in the future, in my opinion high oil prices are here to stay for good. This is driven by a dwindling supply and a strong demand from emerging markets such as India and China. The global demand is increasing by the day, and oil will be sold to the highest bidder.

According to oil-price.net a barrel costs around $127 today but is forecast to cost around $165 in a year. Not good.

Reading articles on major websites providing information on the matter (IATA, The Guardian, BBC etc.) it seems as if very tough times lay ahead for aviation.

wiggy

3rd Jun 2008, 07:56

Interesting stuff. I'm so far removed from the wanabee end of things that I'm no even sure what a wanabee is - but can I ask the following question?

Seems to me in the days of Old that the likes of "Tootles" and WWW are on about it was easier financially to take an enforced break from the career path than is is now. OK, Tesco's/McD or Burger king wouldn't be great but my guess is that you guys at that time didn't have to think about repaying a 70K - 100K loan. Seems to me the new generation are going to be hit by the double whammy of the airlines closing the doors and the bank manager wanting his dosh back. Hard times ahead - who to blame: the FTOs, financial Industry, starry eyed wanabees, lady luck?

spinnaker

3rd Jun 2008, 09:06

WWW

"Major house price crash = major recession"

Why?
Because, although prices were overinflated to begin with, the real crunch came as the banking sector run out of money and confidence.

The current house price 'crash' is just an adjustment of prices back to standard values following a period of stupid greed fuelled price soaring - nothing more.

Errr. Nope. There is an element of price adjustment but there are underlying inflationary pressures on the economy that have been in place for quite some time.

Typically house price 'crashes' follow not proceed recessions dont they?
Not this time

Recession > manufacturing/service sector (seen as we dont make anything anymore) downturn > job losses > mortgage difficulties > house price crash?

Manufacturing/service sectors havnt crumbled, people arent being laid off left right and centre.....no recession as yet AFAIK.
Your following standard model. If you look at it as an economic loop, which is what it is. Then any part of that loop which breaks, has a knock on effect to other parts of the economy. Interest rates are not coming down, they are going up. Grain prices are at an all time high although eased a little, there are no long term indicators that prices will ease by much more. Everything you eat depends upon grain, so your food bill is going up significantly. I calculated food inflation to be at 4% pa last December. My figures at the farm gate for March was 5%-6% pa. My latest farm gate figures for May show an inflation rate of 8% pa. I predict that this will be close to 10% by the year end.

Inter-bank issues exist granted - not really indicative or a result of the UK economy IMHO. In fact the UK economy has dealt with this pretty well (so they keep telling us) - which maybe indicative of it its strength.
Too simple. The UK economy is not doing well, in fact its very fragile. Northern Rock - gone. Bradford & Bingley - teetering. Massive write downs by all the big boys, plus inflation. More to come. It's not an if, its a when, regarding recession.

Oil prices -woooo - Not a shortage lead issue AFAIK. This is a supply issue. The OPEC countries are squeezing us by strangling thier supply/prcessing rates. Might end in war (in which we all jump out of our airliners (when/if we ever get in one) and into our Typhoons....yay) but not a recession
There is a small surplus in the world oil production, so no, not completely true to say that is just a supply issue. Hedge fund managers are heavily into oil speculation since the American sub-prime went belly up. They are looking to make up for heavy losses. In a way, if oil was to reduce in price, I feel that many banks would suffer further.

Too gloomy for my liking although i am with DJ here in that I think the train-headlight reference is very good
I knew I would find something that we would agree on :ok:
It is gloomy, but it is reality.

General Zod

3rd Jun 2008, 10:15

The guys who just finished CTC Wings in May have been told that their line training at EZY has been postponed as Easy aren't taking on anyone until AT LEAST November.

By which time there'll be another 5 classes graduated!!:ugh:

boogie-nicey

3rd Jun 2008, 13:51

It's somewhat distressing to count all the references being made to Mcdonalds and Burger King. As potential aircrew you need to up your game and stop crying or throwing yourself onto the bottom rung of the ladder. Life is tough and so is aviation but the answer doesn't lie in the self harming "I don't care about myself" approach that many have adopted by seeing Macs and Burger King as the only option. If I were interviewing you (not that I ever will ;)) I'd be notably unimpressed at the fact that you've clearly learned nothing and cannot think out of the box so to speak. There are a plethora of other jobs in between that you should be aiming for, after all what if that magic call never comes? Are you going to stay at Macdonalds for the rest of your career? If you're all so clever and have done the Everest ATPL groundschool exams then why can't you enroll on an IT or accounting/finance course and whip out a QUICK foundation exam or something just to give you a small cushion for the meantime and something worth putting onto your CV. In case the call doesn't materialise you'll have the foundations of an alternative career or at interview you can claim that even in the non-aviation world you always strive for the best and push yourself to achieve that.

All this clap trap about working in the fast food industry reminds me of those heart broken romantics that would find solace by punishing themself to join the French Foreign Legion or sail to distant lands never to be seen again by their loved ones again :{. Just because things don't go well you have to pick yourself act like an adult and do the next best thing whether your ego or heart likes it or not, that's practical living. There are many inclduing myself that train whilst working and raising a family and still feel privileged to be a part of this. I think alot of this applies to the younger age group and those on the metored schemes where the cadet pilots are so mesmerised by the mentoring airline they almost sign over their life to them only to find themselves waiting years and sometimes not even getting anything tangible at the end.

There were pilots in the 60s that had everything paid for and little to worry about too, but we don't spend our time despairing about how good they had it we just get on with it. Alot of you are still extremely lucky just to have had the opportunity of flight training. I realise that you've spent alot of money but what are you saying that someone else with an ATPL didn't? They were all expensive qualifications and a downturn is nothing new there have been countless pilots around the world that lost out in previous recessions.

If you failed to plan then you are the ones reaping the dismal rewards of that now. For those of you with an ounce of patience get something else in the meantime for you to hold onto until the storm passes and then once the sun's back you won't even remember any of this "who-ha". BUT PLEASE NO MORE MACDONALDS OR BURGER KING.

belongins

3rd Jun 2008, 14:01

Boogie wonderland:)

Yay - sense and sunshine all in one post:ok:

In a wierd way i guess its almost beneficial to start late (age-wise like me) after having made a very nice professional career elsewhere in the current climate:)

spinnaker

3rd Jun 2008, 14:59

BUT PLEASE NO MORE MACDONALDS OR BURGER KING.
But that's where some belong, looking at some of the posts around the forums. Particularly from alleged experienced experts. I've heard more sense coming from first solo ppl's

spinnaker

3rd Jun 2008, 15:43

djfingerscrossed

Have another look at my post. I don't think I criticised individuals for asking questions, or shouted at anyone.

I wouldn't worry about the strength of my criticisms, ask my MP. :)

mustflywillfly

3rd Jun 2008, 16:23

Boogie, couldn't agree with your post more. In fact it is suprisingly similiar to a post I made about 1000 this morning on the legendary "Growing Evidence......" thread.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=311832&page=38

Prior Prep Prevents Piss Poor Performance !!

Cheers

MFWF :ok:

d41xcs

3rd Jun 2008, 17:06

EZY are great...but they're not the be all and end all!! Other airlines do exist!

Wee Weasley Welshman

3rd Jun 2008, 17:19

If there is a recession on, your CV has an 18 month whole in it where you were in flying training and you are badly in debt you may find that the only job you can get that pays and pays next week is flipping burgers.

At a time of rising unemployment an employer has his pick of applicants and current staff stop resigning and switching jobs as they lose length of service protections.

I know people who has CPL IR's and Frzn ATPLs but <500hrs in the 1991/2/3 period who were working as window cleaners and van drivers.

I'm not talking theory but historical fact and it will happen again.

WWW

drivez

3rd Jun 2008, 17:31

Im not an expert so please correct me if im wrong but.

The far east is currently recruiting pilots i beleive and not just one or two. And apparently the pay is good.
Ryanair is recruiting upto 200 pilots everyyear some as cadets.
Easyjet as prior stated.

So i think what may happen is bad times in America, I think that alot of pilots will be short of work, and some of the "bigboys" will go under just like pan am etc.
Some of the experience in europe and America will shift to the far east toward sun and pay. Leaving a few jobs for the new people. ryanair and the sorts prices will rise but they will survive. Then in about 5-10 years or when we ge a change in government fuel prices will slow down and begin to fall. New airlines will pop up and we'll be back to hunky dorry. Then 10-15 years after that well be back to fuel shortages unless we develop something new. Fuel prices are climbing dramatically but the worlds oil hasn't halved and the world consumption hasn't doubled so somebody is screwing us all over and the tax. Hurry on hydrogen engines or whatever.

If you just want to see the world there is an advertisment up in my school for new officers on ships. Or you could join the RAF they're in desperate need of pilots.

Anyways difficult is just worth doing.

Grass strip basher

3rd Jun 2008, 17:40

I think you will find the RAF are not in "desparate need of pilots"..... I fear you are about to get flamed for that comment... airline and military flying are chalk and cheese

spinnaker

3rd Jun 2008, 17:57

djfingerscrossed

No sweat, life's too short. :)

My MP, Labour! good god no. Much worse, LibDem. Since retiring, I took a deeper interest in politics. A couple of issues bugged me, so I wrote to him with my concerns, his replies were dismissive, so I promised him a slot on the 6 pm news together with the health minister. He said I wouldn't do it. Guess what, I did. His red face looked superb alongside that of Nicola Sturgeon. Best viewed on a sony. 'Colour like no other' :E

Cheers

PS all the edits are for grammar and spelling 2/10
teach

belongins

3rd Jun 2008, 18:39

WWW

and pays next week is flipping burgers.

Not me - I have an excellent well paid and established career to 'fall back on.' I just fancy chasing a dream......:ok:

B

Wee Weasley Welshman

3rd Jun 2008, 19:53

14 yr olds are totally forgiven for knowing nothing and being 180 degrees wrong.

The audience here is wide. Great that you've got a fall back career. Many haven't and quite proportion of those have nothing but massive debt and their parents loans to fall back on.

Employers don't find you attractive as a failed pilot. It suggests you get yourselves into things you don't understand, that you will have money worries and that you are a dreamer. Sorry, but that's what many 40yr old Bosses will think about you if you are in your 20's and have a CPL/IR but are applying for some menial £20k job on the basis of some easy foundation qualification.

And they'll think to themselves that at the first chance of a flying job you'll ditch this exciting opportunity in the Paper & Packaging industry to go fly aircraft. Which would be true. Better to hire the guy you hasn't blown £70k on a license he's desperate to use elsewhere.

The job interviewer is more likely to be put off by your CPL IR than impressed. Trust me as I've sat on BOTH sides of that desk.

There is only ONE thing that is true and that you need to know. Never ever miss-time your entry to the career of pilot. To do so is disaster. Classic miss-timing would be to complete CPL IR Frzn ATPL MCC anytime from Feb 2008 to Dec 2010.

At the earliest.

This time won't be exactly like the last HPC and recession. History doesn't repeat itself - but it does rhyme.

WWW

spinnaker

3rd Jun 2008, 21:10

djfingerscrossed

To give an opinion on how the airlines and job prospect are affected, maybe a look at how we got to where we are now with the general economy.

The following is not a lesson in economics, just some background to my own observations to show how I arrive at my conclusions.
My background has been in food production, the civil service, and of course aviation. (I'm now back into food production as a farmer and a writer)

We all know about house prices. That's the headline. But its what has caused the sharp downturn, I would call it a recession. Prices were high and the bottom rung of the housing ladder broke early/mid 2007 (some would argue sooner). For many first time buyers, a new home was out of reach. The economy was still doing well, interest rates low. Absence of the first time buyer was starting to have an effect on all prices and started a much welcomed correction in the inflation rate. Still no problem on the surface, but while we felt comfortable with the situation, a huge problem was heading our way. Yup. The American sub-prime. We all knew that in the US things were looking bad, but what we did not know was the extent UK banks were exposed to that market. Even the banks did not know themselves, and some still do not. During the latter part of 2007, when the valuations came in for funds the UK banks had in the states, it was nothing short of disaster. Banks lost money, in vast quantities and stopped lending to each other. Enter Northern Rock. The banks position was untenable. It relied on a much higher percentage of loans to deposits to fund its business. Now we have a real problem, imprudent lending on a huge scale, reliance upon loans from other banks, which were not forthcoming, and finally complete collapse of pubic confidence. The genie is now well and truly out of the bottle, and it will not go back in. So the high prices for homes was not the only cause for the current climate. The market will continue to remain depressed for some time until the finance sector recovers. Further pressure is brought to bear because interest rates have not fallen, they have gone up, lending is much tighter and less money in our pockets.

Fuel price. Its not possible to put a finger on one single element that is keeping the price high. Political instability in some countries, the growing consumption in Asia and the hedge fund managers. There is a world wide surplus, but its not huge, that makes it attractive to the speculator. Buy and the price goes up, because it creates a perceived shortage. Sell it for a profit before the ship docks and your home and dry. That's what is going on at the moment.

Grain. Everything you eat needs grain, and again prices are at all time highs. Why? again the asian markets have increased their demand, but that is not the sole reason for the current price. Last year was not a good crop, that's one reason. Its our friend oil, or the oil companies this time. Farmers are attracted to grow energy crops like they have never been before. The amount of land used for food production has dropped in recent times to a level that is causing major instability and shortages in the markets. I calculate food inflation to be running at least three times that of the figures published by government (from my own experiences and industry sources). Now this is important, the lower the household income, then the percentage spent on food increases, couple that with escalating fuel and housing costs, there is a lot less disposable income after living expenses have been paid. For many families there is no disposable income.

So that leaves the aviation industry in a very tight spot. Much of the traffic is holiday based, and for obvious reasons, the holiday is the first to get the chop. For this year I reckon airlines will be making as much savings on costs as they can, but I cannot see major job losses apart from one, or two companies folding, not a collapse though. For 2009 I see a different picture. All of the key areas above show no signs of recovery for some time yet, inflation is rising. I feel the industry will slide into recession and a real risk of job losses may occur.

So what would I do, if I were to start a flying career. If I were a 20 year old, I'd go for it, youth is on your side to weather the uncertainty, and when times get better, you will be ready for that jet job or a command. If I were mid 30's, play a little safe, get ready to go back to your previous occupation. Over 40? got a good job, hang onto it, fly a cessna, they really are good fun at the end of the day.

I really wish I could have written something brighter, I cant, because to do so would be pure fantasy. Maybe I'm wrong and you guys can come back in 12 months and call spinnaker and ass, I'd like that.

Wee Weasley Welshman

3rd Jun 2008, 21:34

1) There is an argument that the LAST thing Brits cut back on is the god given right to take the kids on a decent holiday (often defined as 2 weeks on the costas with a kids club, 3 bars and an eat & drink your own bodyweight daily challenge tariff). Often put forward by IT charter pilots.

2) I'm not sure being 20 is such a good idea. I believe there will be a similar scale airline industry in 10 years. Probably in 20. In 30 I get a little nervous..

3) This is the biggy - it only takes a coupe of airlines at the margin to go under to totally shaft all Wannabes. In the 1990's recession it was Air Europe and Dan Air going under that did the damage. Plenty of other airline continued to trade, millions continued to fly each year and the sun still comes out - even in a recession.

But, when a couple of airlines go to the wall they release hundreds of experienced and rated pilots who suddenly will take any job at any wage. They don't need type rating courses, they don't need extra line training they present zero training risk.

Doesn't matter if CTC or Oxford or the RAF say that you are Gods Gift to aviation. Nobody wants to know when there are a stack of CV's by current airline pilots who are typed and hungry.

Your IR and your exams will expire before you get a first job interview. Some will laugh at you. The school that you trained at will have gone bust. Family and friends will be asking when you are going to start using your license. You have no language skills unlike all those Scandies and Dutchies who have perfect English and have already started learning Bengali or Madarin. The Bank Manager will be hunting you down with night vision goggles.

Once a few airlines or even one airline at the margin goes under it is GAME OVER for wannabes in a recession.

But nobody tells you this.

Unless you read here and listen to Wild-Eye-Weasley and his spickle flecked rants of doom (see I do have self awareness).

Seriously, things will be bad and unless you understand the last time this happened you probably have no idea how bad it gets and how quickly it occurs.

WWW

MIKECR

3rd Jun 2008, 21:54

www,

As you rightly say, it gets bad VERY QUICKLY!! The last 2 months have seen an amazing downturn on the job front. I was lucky to get a couple of interviews within a very short space of time but to be honest im beginning to get worried. The 2 interviews have led to 2 holding pools but i begin to get the horrible sinking feeling that my optimism may be short lived. The expected moves(TP guys to jet jobs) in both companies hasnt happened this summer. The Ezy's, BMI's, Thomas Cooks etc just havent been hiring the last 2 months. Unfortunately these TP pilots have no where to go and are stuck in the 'Regionals'. Until these pilots move on, theres no places for the likes of myself.

For the rest of you guys who are poo pooing www, I would listen up if i was you. Take it from me, as someone who has been job hunting for the last 12 months, its gotten vary bad lately! The immediate future looks pretty grim. You'd do well to listen to guys in my position.

spinnaker

4th Jun 2008, 08:15

djfingerscrossed

At least you have a plan 'B' and taken the time to read about other points of view.

When www said it gets bad quickly, during the last episode it certainly did.

One thing to remember after reading the daily newspaper dose of gloom (or one of my posts). People will still buy houses, they will still fly, airlines will still need pilots. Its a question of how many and a recognition that the job market is in for a rough time.

Rollerboy

4th Jun 2008, 08:27

Just to strengthen what you are saying Mike although you might not want to hear it.

TP guys sitting in the middle rungs of the seniority list are much more happy to stay there in the present climate. As with most airlines seniority is king and now is not the best time to be proping up a list of 600-2500 from the bottom no matter what you get to fly.

To all those embarking on the CPL/IR courses now, things will get difficult so choose the course wisely and make sure you have that backup plan b should things go wrong.

As for CTC vs Oxford vs Cabair vs FTE vs Modular, just remember that hard times level the playing field. In 12 months time there WILL PROBABLY be no airline placements (at least not in the UK), however the best pilots from the above with the fight to survive will always find a flying job in the end.

For those complaining about the doom and gloom just take a good look around, things are not going to get better overnight in the current climate. Silverjet has just released a number of experienced pilots onto the market nobody knows who might be next to release pilots.

Still it's your money and your future in the end make a considered opinion with all the facts at hand and make that decision. Just pray it's the right one.....

Roller

Oh and mikecr don't know whos hold pool you are sitting in but if one is the UKs largest regional operator you should get that call.

belongins

4th Jun 2008, 08:54

@WWW

Employers don't find you attractive as a failed pilot. It suggests you get yourselves into things you don't understand, that you will have money worries and that you are a dreamer. Sorry, but that's what many 40yr old Bosses will think about you if you are in your 20's and have a CPL/IR but are applying for some menial £20k job on the basis of some easy foundation qualification.

I am not in my 20's not that that would have anything to do with anything in this legislative day and age anyway:=

Foundation qualification - uhmm well lets see BSc (Hons) Physics, CPhys, CEng.....hardly foundation qualifications are they oh and all on the back of nearly 8 years professional duty the last 4 of which ahve been at senior level

WWW i have to tell you your posts come accross, to me at least, more as antagonistic rather than from a helpful guidance perspective.
Which is it that you intend?

B

Re-Heat

4th Jun 2008, 09:09

He intends it as a reality check - don't knock the intention - you perfectly well know that the "foundation qualification" statement is hardly intended at you.

mustflywillfly

4th Jun 2008, 09:21

@WWW

Quote:
Employers don't find you attractive as a failed pilot. It suggests you get yourselves into things you don't understand, that you will have money worries and that you are a dreamer. Sorry, but that's what many 40yr old Bosses will think about you if you are in your 20's and have a CPL/IR but are applying for some menial £20k job on the basis of some easy foundation qualification.
I am not in my 20's not that that would have anything to do with anything in this legislative day and age anyway:=

Foundation qualification - uhmm well lets see BSc (Hons) Physics, CPhys, CEng.....hardly foundation qualifications are they oh and all on the back of nearly 8 years professional duty the last 4 of which ahve been at senior level

WWW i have to tell you your posts come accross, to me at least, more as antagonistic rather than from a helpful guidance perspective.
Which is it that you intend?

B

Indeed!

Anyway I wouldn't want to be getting into this lark if I didn't have the PgDip and BEng degree and 10 years military service (with option to go back) under my belt. To go for it now with zero quals or other work experience would indeed be foolhardy. But I still argue that completing your CPL/IR etc etc during your "gap year" if you like, can still be spun to look good to a potential employer. Yes, I have sat on that side of the desk too and trained for that side of the desk too (unlike the majority of bods who just end up there as they have a few more grey hairs then their colleagues). Anyone who has a bit of common sense can make themselves marketable. Flipping burgers is not really an option if you have a little more about you.

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Jun 2008, 09:28

Look chaps - I can't know each of your personal circumstances. I'm writing here to a broad audience, many quite young who don't have established careers. Don't get insulted by talk of flipping burgers if it clearly wouldn't get to that point for your personal circumstances.

I'm only writing here to address a wider audience and provider broad advice by highlighting the issues and problems in general. I'm not engaging in a personal careers advice session though I do get plenty of that by personal message!

Explaining to a prospective employer that you spent a lot of time and money on a pilots license CAN be spun positively. As an employer though I would by cynical and think - didn't work, will leave as soon as a pilot job comes up, I'll hire the normal guy I saw half an hour ago. As I said earlier - I KNOW people who had to clean windows and drive vans in the last recession because their logbooks had less than 700hrs and nobody was interested and there were no flying jobs. They had bills and loans to service and had to crack on. One of them went on to currently be a Fleet Manager with a well known UK jet airline. So it worked for him in the end.

WWW

Localiser

4th Jun 2008, 09:38

Here here WWW.

With the greatest of respect guys; some of you seriously have your heads in the sand. Wake up and smell the coffee! WWW isn't doom-mongering just for a bit of light entertainment for himself.

A proportion of you should stop being arrogant and take some sound advice from more experienced people. Seriously. Wise up. :mad:

I know wild enthusiasm can blinker the facts but if you're about to start training; try and be sensible and sit tight for a while. Look at the news or any newspaper any day of the week - the facts are staring you in the face!

belongins

4th Jun 2008, 10:25

For Gods sake

I AM listening to WWW
I gave him/her a thumbs up in an earlier post. I very much appreciate hisher general messages and knowledge. This doesnt mean to say that every word in every post from WWW is NOT going to raise an eyebrow or need clarifying or hell correcting somtimes!

WWW i AM appreciative of your posts my friend and I thank you but you cant expect people to agree with you on every single point all of the time.

B

The African Dude

4th Jun 2008, 10:32

WWW - here's someone who's due to complete in about November 2009. Pretty much worst timing according to your predictions, and you might be right too.

But sometimes, when you're already committed and there's no other choice, you have to listen to and take on board the advice and predictions of those in the know, and just bloody well do it anyway.

I may be wrong, and I may be right - that will be something I find out when the day comes. But what I know now is that many opportunities can be made simply by being willing to try in the face of grim odds. So I will knuckle down and get on with it, take any opportunities I can make for myself and keep moving forwards. Sometimes the hardest situations are actually the easiest because there is nowhere to go but forwards. I'll let you know.

chchflyboy

4th Jun 2008, 10:48

just a few points

what the hell happened to the massive industry boom the media has been wanking on about

ok, so, from what ive read the europeans have too many tunnels- because your all in the dark and apparently your also going to be hit by a train. european fuel prices are amoungst the highest in the world- so what about the rest of us? is it going to get too hard to find a job for a wannabe like myself?

and uhhh, what the hell happened to the massive industry boom... fuel pries have been shooting up for a while now but apparently theres still a world shortage in airline pilots. I hear qantas is grounding planes because of it, new zealands opening a new multi rating course to get more pilots on a flight deck (we're a bit behind), there are hundreds of jobs on the net.

so who's :mad: here? fuel prices are going to keep going up but people are still going to want to travel, the populations increasing = airlines are increasing = more planes = more pilots = more jobs

right?

MIKECR

4th Jun 2008, 12:02

Did I read somewhere that Ezy have now put a stop on any more ctc cadets for the timebeing due to lack of recruitment?? If Ezy dont take them then theres a distinct lack of other airlines hiring.

saccade

4th Jun 2008, 12:06

I only act on cold hard facts.

Here is a nice graph about the situation in the US. It represents the number of seats in Okt 2007 vs Okt 2008. If oil prices rise further, or the dollar gets stronger, we will see the same trend in Europe.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2008-05-30-airline-cutbacks_N.htm

You might have better chances with an license for nuclear submarines.

BitMoreRightRudder

4th Jun 2008, 12:17

In terms of ezy's requirement for CTC cadets it is well and truly on the cards that the guys who have just started the six month probation stint will be the first group not to be offered permanent contracts due to current circumstances. Let's hope this doesn't turn out to be the case.

MIKECR

4th Jun 2008, 12:24

Thought i'd read it somewhere. Was beginning to think my mind was playing tricks on me.

belongins

4th Jun 2008, 12:35

BitMore and MIKECR

I thought i had read that CTC (damn need to remember this is not a CTC thread....sorry just want to clarify this) cadets have been asked to volunteer to delay by upto 6 months while EZY wait for a/c or something similar i.e. ops driven not pilot demand driven?

Or is that totally wrong.....Again just trying to bottom out the facts guys.

B

MIKECR

4th Jun 2008, 12:43

I would probably take it with a pinch of salt to be honest. I find it a bit strange that theyd delay ctc guys yet theyre quite happy to take guys from the highly debated ATP(buy TR and 150 line hours nonsense) scheme. I dont see any other purpose in delaying the ctc pilots other than perhaps the ATP chaps and chappesses will be cheaper labour. I may be totally off the mark of course!

PosClimb

4th Jun 2008, 12:46

WWW is right.

Aviation is a very cyclical industry with periods of 'feast and famine'.

The people who are against WWW are usually flying school students who are blinded to reality by their dreams, or flight training vendors who are afraid WWW is scaring away their business.

By the way, CNN just announced that United Airlines is grounding a whole wack of planes and laying off a lot of employees due to the fuel crisis...

If history is any judge, thing will get better about 4 years from now. But with oil prices I think set to stay high, it's so hard to say really....

spinnaker

4th Jun 2008, 12:48

so who's here? fuel prices are going to keep going up but people are still going to want to travel, the populations increasing = airlines are increasing = more planes = more pilots = more jobs

Sure people will still travel, just be a lot less. My posts above, although relate to the UK, many of the woes are a global issue as well. It's not possible to separate the Airline industry from the rest of the economies.

Someone said in another post about airline placing orders for new airframes. In itself not a cast iron guarantee of employment. Years ago I was working for an airline that had orders, deposits paid. They wanted to change their mind and boeing wouldn't let them, so the went belly up. OK I'm not saying Ryanair is in the same boat, but MOL has said that they expect a break even for next year. That alone should be a warning.

A lot of what www says makes sense and worth taking on board. At least the new blood coming into aviation will do so, eyes wide open.

Cheers

spinnaker

4th Jun 2008, 12:51

By the way, CNN just announced that United Airlines is grounding a whole wack of planes and laying off a lot of employees due to the fuel crisis...

High fuel price = Higher ticket price = Less pax.

Its the less pax, they cannot afford it.

'tis just another viewpoint.

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Jun 2008, 12:55

The guys coming in paying for type rating and 150hrs line training are, in total, 10. They are all connected to an African airline. As far as I can see EZY are just making a bit of pocket money by using their spare training capacity now that recruitment has come to a shuddering halt.

It would not be appropriate for me to say anything more than is already in the public domain.

Just do give full weight to the fact that it is YOU that bears ALL the financial risk for your CTC training scheme. Nobody seems to know what happens if, for some reason, there are no jobs at the end of the scheme. I don't. If I were on the scheme or applying for it I think I'd try to find out. For several years now getting onto the CTC scheme meant that you had cracked it - an airline job was yours. It might be wise, just wise, to no longer think you've cracked it just because CTC have accepted you.

I spent many happy hours training Aer Lingus cadets who were fully sponsored but come Sept11th were chopped from line training at which point the company had spent over £100k on them. But they were gone by Nov2001 and scattered to the four winds.

Airlines are brutal - when they dump you they dump you. Training providers will be no different except HSBC will hunt you to the ends of the earth and take your firstborn. Unless you go bankrupt.

WWW

Re-Heat

4th Jun 2008, 12:59

Let's see what Chris Avery (JPMorgan) thinks...oh yes, Ryanair are trading their aircraft, not using them.

B738s

At the analysts’ meeting, we learned a few more points of detail about Ryanair’s B738 contract. We believe that Ryanair’s last tranche in February 2005 was priced cheaper than Boeing has ever sold the aircraft before, due to Ryanair’s timing and volume (just when BCA was tasked with rebuilding market share after four years of being beaten by Airbus). With the major shift in the euro/dollar rate, these aircraft are becoming steadily even cheaper to (euro-reporting) Ryanair.

Today, its B738 deliveries are half the price (in euros) of its first deliveries in the 1998/99 - thus they have half the depreciation and half the capital costs, making a material difference to Ryanair’s aircraft costs as the oldest 738s are sold out and replaced with the new ones (the latest batch was sold to a Russian airline). These cheap prices have now been locked in by Ryanair. It shares the typical contractual escalation clauses in the contract with Boeing (this is unusual), and has now hedged its dollar requirements for the plane deliveries through to 2011, locking in those cheap prices.

At this stage, Ryanair management is adamant that it wants to take all its contracted firm deliveries in order to reduce its own costs (through replacement of the oldest 738s) and to grow as other LCCs fail (inevitable, we agree, at $130/bbl oil).

MarcoFF

4th Jun 2008, 13:02

Topslide6 wrote:

"here is very little movement between airlines as everybody is clinging to their seniority number with both hands, and even if they did want to move, there are virtually no jobs to apply for."

Thank god world is not just UK.

belongins

4th Jun 2008, 13:29

Spinnaker - You ass;)

Sorry dude - you said you'd like it - just trying to brighten someones day.....:D

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Jun 2008, 13:30

Re-Heat - v interesting. This business is one hell of a smoke and mirrors show. The actual business of flying passengers to destinations is a tiny fraction of the real business of selling tea, coffee, buns, scratch cards, car hire discounts, hotel reservation commissions, oil price speculation and airframe trading.

The one thing that is clear is that Wannabes should take no comfort from specific airline aircraft orders nor the fact that the manufacturers are working flat out. Its all heading to countries where your license or your logbook don't count.

WWW

belongins

4th Jun 2008, 13:58

MarcoFF

4th Jun 2008, 15:52

Topslide wrote:

"Sorry, are you suggesting there is an abundence of flying jobs in Finland?!"

Did i say like that? :ugh:

to idiots: (Asia & Middle-east).

If here are seriosly talking only about the UK area, maybe topic name should be "We're all *****d in UK!"

MarcoFF

4th Jun 2008, 16:13

Don't take it too seriously mate:ok:

PPRuNeUser0172

4th Jun 2008, 16:24

Some good points raised on this thread, and I have to agree with the title of the thread, although I am not a wannabee.

I read today that Ryanair are grounding 10% of their fleet this year, what will happen to the surplus crews? I hear that Ryanairs Ts and Cs are aggressive at the best of times let alone when the chips are down.

From what I see in the mil, the last few years have been a boom period for guys leaving with 2000hrs TT and pretty much beating away the job offers, not at the moment. Guys are still getting jobs on the whole, but having to look harder for them.

Whoever it was that said the RAF is desparate, really is desparate. We aint. When the airlines stop recruiting, people stay in the mob.

I feel that only the strongest will survive the "credit crunch", yes cheap air travel is great but disposable income is falling faster than Silverjet shares and coupled to higher fares due to oil, it is a situation which only get a lot worse very quickly.

I do think that EZY and Ryan will be ok as they have ridiculous low operating costs compared to other legacy carriers, the latter I feel will have to make some significant cost saving measures to weather the storm.

Supply and demand basically. The levels of supply we have seen over the last 5-10 yrs are currently greater than demand and this situation I feel will only get worse.

What does this mean for those who are just starting out?? Pretty much what WWW has been saying. If you can get out I would................

spinnaker

4th Jun 2008, 17:13

Spinnaker - You ass

Sorry dude - you said you'd like it - just trying to brighten someones day.....

LMAO, fair cop.

My day has been brightened even further. Just had a visit from the local Environmental Health Officer. Very tasty bit of totty. :D

belongins

4th Jun 2008, 17:23

Spinnaker

Nice - you should have posted pics :)
B

spinnaker

4th Jun 2008, 17:29

Next time. I will:)

MarcoFF

4th Jun 2008, 18:59

Thanks Topslide6, but i have gone through that all.

You guys have horrible interest rates:bored:

cfwake

4th Jun 2008, 19:53

Djfingerscrossed and Topslide6, the HSBC loan repayment is somewhat below your guesses, and they do not lend between 70 and 80k. If you only ever make the mimimum loan repayment, then yes the total would be 80k. however, I do not believe that this is what you meant.

That's how rumours start guys. If you're going to throw "facts" in, check their accuracy first.

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Jun 2008, 20:03

Ummm, so what do they lend then and at what % - if you know, share.

WWW

chchflyboy

5th Jun 2008, 06:35

well I'm nearly 20, I'm a wannabe wanting to get into an airline one day, and now I'm f****d due to damn petrol prices. oh well, I dont care because I'm following a dream, and as long as there are planes flying there will be pilots, and i'll be one of those pilots and you guys can keep bitching about fuel prices, (yes I bitch about it too) and fall back on being car salesmen, and I'll work my ass off and take your jobs...

Globally the world in its self is f****d- but seeing this is an avation forum, it is noted flights around the world will hit a max, due to fuel prices, lack of affordable flights and limited airspace, companies will go bust, people will lose their jobs- but I don't think we are at that point just yet. Do you think thousands of people can be seen at heathrow everyday because the coffee's good there?

So how about a little optimisum- and leave your back up plans for when your boss reads this forum and sends you packing. lol

Its a bloody tough industry- everybody knows that, so I plan on being the best I can be, buying too many important people too many coffees, sending a sh*tload of CVs and kissing a lot of ass. But hey I get to follow my dreams so I ain't complaining. What are you going to do?

spinnaker

5th Jun 2008, 07:52

Its a bloody tough industry- everybody knows that, so I plan on being the best I can be, buying too many important people too many coffees, sending a sh*tload of CVs and kissing a lot of ass. But hey I get to follow my dreams so I ain't complaining. What are you going to do?

I have to say, I like your approach. A certain degree of bloody mindedness is an essential ingredient. If I were a Chief Pilot, I would probably give you an interview to get you off of my back. So, how would you save me money? Why are you better than the two guys with 10000 hours a piece, that I fired last month? (apart from the fact I'm only going to pay you half the going rate).:E

wiggy

5th Jun 2008, 07:58

spinnaker

Methinks you are too generous offering to pay half the going rate...chchflyboy is following his dream (didn't we all once) so why pay him at all?

mustflywillfly

5th Jun 2008, 08:25

Guys, jumping back to a few posts ago ref wages and loan repayments etc. My best mate has just started with BA post CTC (he finished CTC in May and started with BA two weeks later). He did take the living expenses loan and has worked out that his repayments over 7 years will be approx £1100. His start salary with BA is £31k.

He is convinced that his loan repayments will 85% be covered by his sector pay, thus his £31k pa will hardly be eaten into for the loan repayment. His rent at Heathrow is £600 a month (sharing with 3 hosties :E). He is living the dream!!!

However, old and bolds, are his calcs realisitic?

Cheers

MFWF

General Zod

5th Jun 2008, 08:45

Well his 31k salary will net him 1923.13 per month then deduct any pension contributions.

Rent of 600 per month plus council tax, plus bills and transport and your up to 800/month in expenses before you've eaten.

Then 1100/month on loan repayments?

No idea what the sector pay is but without it he'd be on beans n toast for years and be unable to take those hosties out for even a shandy!!

belongins

5th Jun 2008, 08:46

Mustflywillfly

Holy doo doo that is the dream right there son:)
:ok:
At last a bit of FACTUAL based sunshine - you have no idea how happy this has made my Thursday

Topslide!

Sorry mate but that, as they say, is horlicks.
Uh no it isnt i'm affraid - it's straight from the horses mouth - sorry dave you're not a horse really neigh neigh

Right off to a meeting.............yawn

mustflywillfly

5th Jun 2008, 08:53

I should have pointed out that the £600 per month included all bills. Sector pay is the extra financial reward, literally for each sector that you fly. I guess 4 sectors per day is quite realistic for a newbie flying short haul.

The other fact is that he will be driving the A320. He does however reckon that had he graduated a month or two later then he would have just missed the boat. Lets hope BA don't lay people off and operate a last in first out policy! I want to go to some of these parties he keeps talking about. Git!!!

Anyway back to the ATPL theory.....PofF, what a bitch.

spinnaker

5th Jun 2008, 08:54

Methinks you are too generous offering to pay half the going rate...chchflyboy is following his dream (didn't we all once) so why pay him at all?

I said 'half the going rate'. The going rate is £0, I am willing to pay half that.

I'm a charitable soul. :}

General Zod

5th Jun 2008, 09:04

:) I know what sector pay is - I just don't know his particular rate, is what i was saying!!

Rollerboy

5th Jun 2008, 09:29

Interesting article on MSN at the moment. Is it just media and economist scaremongering?

http://money.uk.msn.com/investing/articles/nicklouth/article.aspx?cp-documentid=8445001

Still if you have a few 1000 hrs or a PHd someone is still recruiting

http://www.esa.int/hr/vn.htm

Roller

mustflywillfly

5th Jun 2008, 09:38

Another completely boring and uninteresting link about oil prices/global economy. This one stolen from the Military forum:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JE24Dj02.html

worth reading if you can be arsed or are avoiding doing ATPL theory..

Mungo Man

5th Jun 2008, 10:44

Still if you have a few 1000 hrs or a PHd someone is still recruiting

http://www.esa.int/hr/vn.htm

Roller

Hee hee! I've never seen an advert for Astronaut before! The advert states 1000hrs required... albeit as test pilot of high perf jets!.

Duties may include extravehicular activities..!:eek:

Doesn't mention pay though...

BTW, Class 2 Medical required and Russian language useful...

mustflywillfly

5th Jun 2008, 13:17

He is assuming that his sector pay will largely cover the loan repayments. If it doesn't then he maybe in for a shock :uhoh:

He is initially LHR for 6 months then permanent base is LGW.

Mate, if you are reading this I hope you don't mind me posting so much info!! I will hold short of mentioning the fact that you still couldn't land a Cessna 152 for toffee. Ooops done it now.

no sponsor

5th Jun 2008, 16:04

Sector & duty pay in BA is around 12K per year, of which some is tax free.

cfwake

5th Jun 2008, 16:05

djfc

I apologise then - we appear to be talking about different courses! I was assuming that, as usual, the OAA numbers were the topic of discussion - for those interested, my crossed wires were that HSBC only (...), to my knowledge, offer OAA students £50k secured, or £25k unsecured for training, 2% above base rate which is the same interest rate as the CTC guys clearly, at 7% currently. Unless they are lending people more now?

TS6 in reference to the OAA loan, I'm assuming then that you're talking about £80k total including lifetime interest? As the lent amount won't be above £50k (again, unless they are lending people more now) unless you're tied to an airline, then the going rate of repayments (and I'd have to check my contract which isn't exactly in easy reach) is around £550 pcm - how are you getting to the 7 - 800 pcm figure?

Sorry again for the confusion, should have been paying more attention really however am so used to people talking solely about numbers for OAA (and usually how foolish people are for going there/getting finance for the course) that I, rather obviously, saw red!

And I am pretty astonished that you CTC guys get offered so much, although with the guaranteed job promise (whatever and wherever that may mean, from what i understand) I suppose they're happier to give you a bigger lump!

belongins

5th Jun 2008, 16:12

And i am pretty astonished that you CTC guys get offered so much, although with the guaranteed job promise (whatever and wherever that may mean, from what i understand) I suppose they're happier to give you a bigger lump!

Nah we dont get a guaranteed job promise - near as damn close to it tho!

I guess CTCs track record regarding placement performance might go someway to smoothing things over with the bank too...no?

cfwake

5th Jun 2008, 16:55

Hmm well having been at OAA for some time now (almost finished) and haven't met anyone who's taken £60, although I don't doubt some people will - HSBC state that this is for sponsored students only - also the extra, which is indeed about £30k is specifically mentioned by HSBC; I recall that the loan contract forbids any further loans to cover the remaining costs of the course i.e you will only legally be permitted to have the HSBC loan and the rest will have to come from other sources that are NOT bank loans!!

Loan repayments average £600 pcm for this loan.

Lurking123

5th Jun 2008, 19:45

Guys, I have crossed swords with WWW on a similar thread but feel that, in this case, its worth emphasising one of his points. There are some here who appear to talk about £80K+ as if it were monopoly money. Take a step back and think. People are considering (already?) taking a bank loan with monthly repayments close to that of a sizeable mortgage with NO guarantee of a job at the end - don't get starry-eyed by all the marketing and statistical stuff from the 'blue chip' training schools. Seriously, think long and hard before committing to such a course of action. If you have £100K in the bank and can't think of anything better to do with it, then maybe you should pop down to Oxford tomorrow. Otherwise, the advice is sit tight, think carefully before you spend and consider the very real advantages of following a modular route.

belongins

5th Jun 2008, 20:35

+ an i dont mean to brag
£1k pcm
£24k in the bank
2 years worth of keeping the buggers way:)

Eye very much wide open:)

But an excellent point sir:ok::ok::ok:

cfwake

5th Jun 2008, 20:48

djfc not sure if that is for ts6 or me!

If it's for me, my loan is for 600 pcm, beginning 6 months after graduation...7% (actually 2% above Bank of England base rate) is annual interest rate, monthly works out to be something around 1.13% of the loan initially...fixed term is 11 years (132 months unless my maths is, as usual, atrocious) and there is no penalty for early repayment - HSBC openly admitted to me that those who take the full loan usually find it realistic to aim for a 6 to 7 year payoff as salary increments come into play. Obviously you're not living the high life but within 7 years, you'll hope to be getting a command and the associated pay which allows payments of significantly more than 600 pcm!

Would I take the loan again with the current climate? No, but then one year ago all I heard from everyone from training captains to newbie first officers was to get in there asap as the job market was going to hold for another 2 years!

Damn industry.

cfwake

5th Jun 2008, 20:51

Still, if we can't get into it at the mo, we could always go and work for OPEC. I believe they're doing EXTREMELY well for themselves at the mo.

ZaaZoo

5th Jun 2008, 21:34

This thread has turned from how fooked we all are to how we can take out loans to fly..:ugh:

Wee Weasley Welshman

5th Jun 2008, 21:49

What happens when the only airlines willing to take CTC cadets are small and only pay low £20's for their FO's? After the tax and deductions and the £1,100 loan repayment the pay will result in £425 net.

Out of which you will have to provide food, shelter, clothing and consumables.

There CTC cadets who have joined BA after spending a short time in the airline the CTC placed them - to a man they are living with their parents and catching the bus to Heathrow.

At the moment its really not worth trying to be a pilot from a rational point of view. The training is expensive. The first job near impossible. The pay after loan repayment is crap. The job has no glamour. The aircraft demand no skill. The public will hate you. The green-leaning public will despise you. The hours are unsocial. The jet lag kills you. The cachet of being an airline pilot wears off real quick. Most people think you harm on the environment whilst taking chavs to ruin foreign countries.

I'd still never trade my job for a real one though.. :O

Your call.

WWW

spinnaker

5th Jun 2008, 22:17

Tonights news was not welcome. Continental and Qantas announce major cut backs. Could be a wave of American and Australian pilots heading this way looking for work (if there are any vacancies). All very experienced.

mustflywillfly

6th Jun 2008, 08:46

I can assure WWW and anyone else that my mate is not living at home with Mum and Dad and travelling to LHR everyday. Christ, that would be a hell of a commute and he is a little old for that!!

WWW does make an excellent point though about low paid airlines. This is exactly why, with huge loan repayments, that on the whole, CTC grads DO NOT want to join FlyBe. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it. I would offer my left testicle to land a job with FlyBe, but then I am modular and I could afford it, as I will be DEBT FREE post training. Problem is though as more and more "partner airlines" are shutting the door for a while (EZY being the big one) CTC are having to look elsewhere and elsewhere does not pay particulalry well.

Good luck to us all, It's a big gamble at the moment. Just make sure you hedge your bets!!

Cheers

MFWF

MIKECR

6th Jun 2008, 09:31

I find it interesting that the 'jobs' spoken about in this thread all seem to revolve around the big 'jet job' scenario. There are off course TP jobs, Cargo, and Corporate jobs as well. The market there is so much more rosy yet people seem to be blinkered by the 'i aint flying that, its a jet or nothing' type scenario. Think a little bit further outside the box people.

mustflywillfly

6th Jun 2008, 10:26

I'd fly a cargo plane full of rubber dog poop out of Inverness (not sure there is a big rubber doog poop factory up that way, but hey it's a great Top Gun quote and I'm just trying to point out that, I for one, would do any flying job I could get my hands on).

Anyway I must stop getting distracted from the ATPL study.....

MFWF

MIKECR

6th Jun 2008, 10:47

Believe it or not but i actually had an interview for that very job(just not the poo involved). And I aint joking.

Wee Weasley Welshman

6th Jun 2008, 10:52

Debt free. Now therein lies paradise.

WWW

raoul80

6th Jun 2008, 11:35

??????????

chchflyboy

7th Jun 2008, 05:17

So, how would you save me money? Why are you better than the two guys with 10000 hours a piece, that I fired last month? (apart from the fact I'm only going to pay you half the going rate).

Methinks you are too generous offering to pay half the going rate...chchflyboy is following his dream (didn't we all once) so why pay him at all?

I'm saving you money cause I'd accept peanuts for pay:) (then build my hours and piss off to emirates) -and I'm better because- well, you fired them didn't you? Put me in a cockpit and you'll see how I'm better. ;)
Wiggy- Still have debt to pay, still need to live. Can I ask ya- if you think flying is a 'job'.. then why don't you find something that is your dream? And do it.
You only live once mate, I see flying for a career.. more of a lifestyle that I want to be a part of; rather than a job, thats a part of my lifestyle.
And yeah at this stage it's a dream I am pursuing, hopefully I don't end up in your shoes- cause damn thats a waste of 65k

I said 'half the going rate'. The going rate is £0, I am willing to pay half that.

I'm a charitable soul. :}

....tssssssk