Reverse Thrust

[Wormole]

I have a question that I hope someone will nswer for me. I live beside the runway at a small aerodrome near Hastings N.Z.
Recently a brand new Cessna Citation Mustang has become a resident here, a very nice looking quiet machine. On takeoff it is no noisier than a light twin piston powered craft, and certainly quieter than a turbo-prop. I never hear it land because reverse thrust is never used, the runway here is less than 1300 metres.
My question.
Is reverse thrust not used on this model of aircraft?

[PyroTek]

In looking at this photo on airliners.net of the cockpit, i think those two little silver things under the throttle could be reverse levers...
here (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled-%28Cessna-Aircraft/Cessna-510-Citation/1296814/L/&tbl=photo_info&photo_nr=26&prev_id=1297050&next_id=1294546)

[Wizofoz]

I'd actually suspect they were TOGA switched, Pyro. I don't think the small Cessnas have reverse thrust.

[Capt Fathom]

No reverse thrust on the Mustang.

The 'two little silver things' are most likely part of the 'detent positions' for the thrust, Idle, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise.

[PyroTek]

Ah true, well i must admit i don't exactly fly exec jets as of yet.. only 152's atm!:ok:

[auto throttle]

I fly a mustang, and I can confirm, no reverse thrust. Doesnt need it, has great carbon fibre breaks and low approach speed:ok:

[Wormole]

Thankyou "Auto Throttle" for your answer, it is appreciated.
Unfortunately my flying experiance is limited to around 5 hours in a DH82 Tiger moth, followed by about 10 hours in a Champion when I ran out of money about 39 years ago. Days I will never forget.
I have spent many hours as pax back, and forth from Japan, and the highlight of those flights was the last hour ( including the "hands off" landing at KIX) in the jump seat. As the captain said at the time KIX is the biggest aircraft carrier in the world.

[Capt Wally]

I suspect the two little silver latches blw the throttles are for the fuel cutoff to cease the noise. Lift & pull backwards.

cute plane

Cw

[Jabawocky]

Nice Machine:ok:

has great carbon fibre breaks

I hope not.... I hope they stay intact so you can Brake with them:E.

OK......hat coat and GOOOOOOOOOO!

J

[tail wheel]

Reverse gear was an option on the Citation II but was heavy and very expensive, so few aircraft had that option fitted. Considering the Citation II strip performance was similar to a King Air, they really didn't need it.

[Capt Wally]

I doubt that at over a tonne heavier than the B200 the Cit 2 could pull up in a similar distance as a Beech. Remember the Beech has two huge 'barn doors' with reverse as std, just in Beta alone the drag is noticeable. The Cit 2 would still have residual thrust from it's two engines if not reverse thrust equip & a lot more inertia. Still I don't know the exact specs of the 'slowtation' but would be very surprised if it could stop in less than 700 mtrs where as the B200 can stop in around half that.


CW

[PLovett]

Wormole

I suspect your neighbouring Mustang is the one that the owners are advertising for crew to undertake charter. Given that they have now advertised for three weeks now I gather they may not be getting a lot of response, at least from those they seek - people with prior jet experience.:suspect:

Given that the Mustang is now the smallest of Cessna's offerings in the jet category anyone with prior jet experience is going to have it on something bigger. May be hard to find someone who wants to step down a size.:hmm:

[18-Wheeler]

I doubt that at over a tonne heavier than the B200 the Cit 2 could pull up in a similar distance as a Beech. Remember the Beech has two huge 'barn doors' with reverse as std, just in Beta alone the drag is noticeable. The Cit 2 would still have residual thrust from it's two engines if not reverse thrust equip & a lot more inertia. Still I don't know the exact specs of the 'slowtation' but would be very surprised if it could stop in less than 700 mtrs where as the B200 can stop in around half that.

AFAIK they can - I know for a fact the old 2 I used to fly pulled up in a little over 400 metres ground roll once when an animal ran out in front of it during landing and the crew stomped on the brakes.
There's not a huge amount of residual thrust at idle, but you do noticeit more when it's cold and the aeroplane is empty.

Given a choice between a Citation and a Kingair, no way I'd choose the prop beast.

[tail wheel]

And the CII need considerably less real estate to get air borne.

[Capt Wally]

I still find it difficult that a C2 can pull up in in around 400 mtrs & T/off in considerably less, that I would love to see. Still I've not flown the slowtation & am happy to stand corrected but untill someone shows me the figures then I am of the opinion that the Beech would beat the C2 in all area's bar the speed. I know for a fact that when the Air Ambo's contract was being put together some years ago now they looked at a jet (of any type) as a possible addition to the B200's & none would go into or out of the strips that the Beech would be able to operate from. If the above is true that the C2 can fly in & out of shorter strips than the B200 then apart from the fact that the C2 access is poor then we ought to have a fleet of slowtations instead, and at $8.5 Mill @ the B200 isn't cheap!:bored:
Horses for courses that's for sure & "18W" I agree I too would rather a jet over a turbo prop anyday but maybe not a slowtation:)


CW:)

[megle2]

I guess we are talking private ops here.

On charter
Props add 43% and jets add 67%
Plus any Ops Manual add ons.

Under charter the 24% jet penalty gives the props a win.
On a wet day even more.

[auto throttle]

Hey PLovett, actually there are twon mustangs in NZ. There is the one in hastings which we are talking about and then there is another one based in Wellington, which is the one the job has been advertised for. If anyone has some jet experience or at least a good CV, PM me, Im helping the owner in Wellington out. Cheers

[18-Wheeler]

I still find it difficult that a C2 can pull up in in around 400 mtrs & T/off in considerably less, that I would love to see.

I didn't say they'd takeoff in ~400 metres - I can't remember the figures but I think that at any reasonable weight you'd need over double that - but they're still pretty good considering they're a jet.

[Capt Wally]

'18 W' I didn't say that you said they can T/Off in less than that, somebody else eluded to that somewhat dubious statement I just lumped both my replies into the one statement (to save ink:))
I think at max Ldg weight the C2 jet would almost certaintly not pull up in 400 mtrs & definetly not T/off in less as mentioned esspecially without rev.
'megle2' yr figures are correct but we where not ref to PVY ops or any type of ops actually it was more the actual ground roll distance needed. factoring etc increases the LD considerably.
Even the LR35 at a very low ldg weight has a Vref of around 105 kts & if fitted with rev you would be lucky to pull her up in a 1000 mtrs without busting something.
Nothing I reckon can match a turbo prop for short field performance. Speed & simplicity of ops is a diff matter.

CW:)

[PLovett]

auto throttle

Two of the little bu@@ers! I'm jealous.:}

I think they are a fabulous machine and Cessna seem to have done everything right from the outset on them, including waiting until Garmin had perfected the autopilot to go with the 1000.:ok:

Would love to get my hands on one but think need a bit more experience first.:{

[tail wheel]

Citation II: (http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane142.shtml)

Takeoff Over 50 ft obstacle: 2,650 ft
Landing Over 50 ft obstacle: 2,210 ft

Beech B200: (http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/Beech/new%20upload/King%20Air%20B200.htm)

Takeoff Over 50 ft obstacle: 2,579 ft
Landing Over 50 ft obstacle: 2,845 ft

[Capt Wally]

Ah but TW we where talking about landing roll only I believe with yr statement that the C2 would take off in considerably less than that, & that being 400 mtrs, not the 50' inclusive. And the data you show is for no use of reverse thrust I would imagine as it's never assumed it's avaliable for the use of calculated Ldg or T/off data. Put that to use & the B200 would be stopped, crew at the bar even before the C2 was able to put the park brake on:)


CW