Dare to fly in the HK skies with our future genius air traffic controllers?

[Moron007]

Hey pilots, dare to fly in the HK skies with the latest patch of Student Air Traffic Control Officers (SATCOs)? They are “phenomenal”.

They think they are genius while everyone else is a jerk:ok:. During class, they played NDS. Of course, they made very good use of wirless lan features, linked up together for team building.:)

Sometimes they would ask questions, not about the course though. They once asked one of the female colleagues the colour of her panties in the classroom. :mad: Wow, how original & stimulating!

They cheated at exams, and they failed the simplest test on basic navigation. Our future genius air traffic controllers blamed it on the instructors. They said the instructors were not up to standard and that’s why they failed.

But what does it matter even if they fail? The management still allows them to progress to the next class. NO disciplinary actions whatsoever for any misbehavior at work. Panties colour or exam results are not a problem. Someone from the management even told these “bright” young SATCOs that the basic courses were just a drama. They need not worry about them because they would do well with their inborn intelligence. To make sure the SATCOs pass the exams, the management told the instructors to change the exam to fit the SATCOs’ sub-standard. How considerate!:ok:

What is management doing this? Because we are short of people and they are genius. It is normal for genius to fail most of the exams.:D

Don’t know about you. But I would make sure I know who is doing the traffic control before I fly in the HK skies in the future.

God bless us all

[CKPT007]

must be an individual thing.
i even heard SATCO, one particular thinks he is such a genius that he call the instructors are useless, callling people B!tches and all sorts of names; licenced ATC controllers this and that. it boils down to their own attitude i think.

must be the new culture of the teenagers. thinking they are god. immaturity afterall.

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Interesting thread guys, at the moment I am instructing at an ATC college level in Europe for a large ANSP and although our students complain at times they know we are fair and by the book. Question for you, Who is the regulatory body who oversees the training as a whole to ensure that it is carried out to a satisfactory standard? this of course works both ways.

If the students are as bad as you say they are, they should be terminated, they certainly would be here.

I tried to come over to HK last year to exercise my ATC skills but I am too old at 40 (sigh), never mind, thier loss!:ok:

[TheOutsider]

"must be the new culture of the teenagers. thinking they are god. immaturity afterall.":rolleyes:

Teenagers??? NO, NO, NO
Most are fresh College Grad ... some even work before already ....:=
NO EXCUSES LA!!!

We all been there before .... WTF!
Maybe someone need tell them they get fired if don't behave:D

[LapSap]

Pretty heavy $hit 007. (both of you) Hope you have your flak jacket on.

Yeh, well as TheOutsider says, they're probably only doing it as a Summer "break" til their real job comes along - what, Cathay cadet or Morgan Stanley accountant?

Most of the decent controllers here (local and expat) have never seen the outside of a University Campus, let alone the inside.
Don't need a degree in Maths to know that F150 is separated from F160 or that 260 knots is less than 270 knots.

Wake up to yourselves CSB
"Oooooh, but you must have a degreeeeee to be on the Master Pay Scale. How else would we justify you're salary?":mad: me

[SevenEleven]

must be feng shui problem

Master So can help

http://i3.yesasia.com/assets/17/441/p1005044117.jpg

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

ATC School in China..........
" CANNOT"
NEGATIVE, FRY PRAN LOOT"

you pass.......

It's not a matter of if we DARE to fly HK skies, we gotta !! Haven't had many problems yet though...... We also fly with University Graduates who have degrees in something other than Aviation stuff. If their heart is into it, good on them! If not, well, they'll soon realize that the Finance Degree they have may have been a better choice in the long run.............
:}

[throw a dyce]

I'm sure these Students will come crashing down to earth sooner or later.It's difficult to cheat in a Radar practical.If they get to the coal face with the genius ace of the base attitude,when they are useless,then I would hope that the OJTI process would catch them.
As for having a degree.It's makes no difference.It's purely are they interested and do they have the ability.I have seen all sorts become very good controllers,and all sorts not pass OJTI.
One aspect of HK students is that they control by numbers.Their bookwork is very good but they aren't the best at being flexible.If the book doesn't say it you Cannot.Practical work they are OK as long as everything is on the rails,by give them an unusual situation it all changes.This is not what you want in an emergency,and was a factor in the UK introducing TRUCE training.This is why they struggle on Approach Radar.Emergency well? Any emergency I saw in HK had all the locals running around like headless chucks.:hmm:

Just My Twopence worth.:zzz::zzz:

[NDS Finger]

Why is this kind of attitude allowed in ATMD? Why is such culture exists? The management held several meetings and did nothing!
Someone said if these students were punished/sacked, it means TU made a mistake during the recruitment process. Face saving yet again. And they spent a long time creating this so-called 21st century hi-tech recruitment procedure. who is head of TU?
Our beloved Brother4 again!
Rumour has it that one of the high flyers is our future DGCA!!!!!! Did Noman played the panties game during his time I wonder?:oh:

[SuzieWong]

NDS. I dont think your comment about our DG is fair. I think he is a good man (really, not shoe shinning !) who is stuck between faceless people in EDLB, THB,CSB and crazy Senior Management who run around like chickens with there heads chopped off with no idea exept what there pensions will be.
What worry me more is the way our Chief of operation thinks staff number is ok! Just look around past few days with weather! No way we can open all position without no one in the supervisor role. Only when panic sets in is 4th floor activated into sending someone up! You see the stress this man is under in ESU - his eyes red with blood from presure no doubt! He will surely not last long if this is what management think is good operation.
What have the rest of us with more than 20 year to go to look to - shiny new centre but never having proper days off, never having leave, no chance to improve with training.

PS. Story we heard from 3rd floor is that tickets and training course in UK is alreadt paid for so they MUST pass. :eek:

[TOIL]

These students are flooded with examination tips to ensure they pass the course. Good job brother4!

[MercuryRising]

I appreciate that one is free to write what one chooses but as an ATC I find the previous postings rather embarrassing because if you have a problem with an individual then take it further privately or officially with your Team Leader. If one has a larger problem with one's employer then take legally justifiable action through your Association ( or organise yourselves if the ATCA is a lame duck ) and schedule industrial action by working to rule until such time your complaints are addressed and resolved to your satisfaction. A few days or weeks of no short cuts and holding will certainly get the attention of the airlines (who indirectly or directly pay your salaries depending on how one argues ) and politicians.

Bare in mind that it's the airlines who will suffer the added expenses and it's imperative that you give your local Pilot's organisation notice of your concerns and solutions and, with fair notice of action, you shall have their support. With oil presently being so expensive your PA will almost certainly ensure that you get a fair hearing with your employer before industrial action becomes necessary.

Whilst I'm ppreaching then may I add, in today's world it's simply a matter of expenditure versus return and unquantifiable claims of safety, morale and deteriorating working conditions holds no sway with most managers.

[throw a dyce]

ATMD CAD,
Maybe the Check controller,LCE, whatever it's called should sit in with her,and keep an eye on the situation.HK weren't good at continuous monitoring of standards.Perhaps part-time working would be a solution from your caring sharing management.:hmm:
As far as recruitment,then what was the advert in Flight about? It appeared a few months back,for a few days,and wanted radar controllers under 40.
Recruited via an external agency? It also broke their own age discrimination policy.:= So does the localisation policy still exist?

[LapSap]

Not a peep out of them since the ad was withdrawn TAD. Think it was another kite flying exercise by the one they call "Brother 4".
He probably got told in no uncertain terms that there was no way gweilos would be on the agenda again.
If it keeps going the way it has, they can have it.

[TOIL]

Free speech in this forum is one of the beauties but one still needs to consider the consequences of what they post. In atmd_cad case study, I consider it is inappropriate to use that tower controller as an example to express one's dissatisfaction to their workplace. I also don't like the senior management but a more macroscopic view is much appropriate than pinpoint to one person.

PPrune please review that post by atmd_cad.

[TOIL]

Our supervisors' ONLY job is to roster people for break and two-hour early-go rather than supervisory job. They only care about their breakfast, lunch and dinner. These are our supervisors. Who allow them to do that?!

[csd]

So far on this thread, half of the posters are posting for the first time. Would it be a fair guess that the original poster has eight user names?

csd

[homeend]

18 posts. 8 are first time users. Can't be half, surely.

[TheOutsider]

Yeah, they take a bunch of ATCOs as Project Offiers too ... how many? alot! And I heard they want more and more ... 20 or 30 somenthing!!!
Why they need so many ATCO II:ugh: ... I thought they build new ATCC Building not man the ATCC .... Once PO go to Project Team they no come back till open new ATCC ... :D

[bekolblockage]

Cummon guys/gals.
Knock it off with the personal Ms. X, Ms. Y cr@p etc.
No need for that.
Direct your energy elsewhere.

[throw a dyce]

ATMD,
Yes that's a real howler.I wonder what would have happened if it was an expat.Probably a firing squad.Classic controlling by numbers,and no idea how to get out of a hole.That lady should get several Hail Mary's,checked out again,and leasons should be learned.
I saw so many dodgy things in HK that I could have written a book.Then you got suspended for a go-around,on single runway.When you translate them across to my current employment,then they would be horrified.
Another aspect of being away,is how much safety is being hammered on about.The 3.3 years in HK mode,and I really had a lot of catching up to do.Since then there has been a huge increase again.Perhaps it's because a major incident would have major financial implications to privatised ATC supplier.The management would also be liable.
Continual monitoring would be a great help in stamping out bad practice.Also it would have to been done by non supervisor staff.Our LCE system is a good benchmark and can pick up problems with individuals early.
I think Part-time is a good idea,as long as the person is up to speed when at work.
Just my 2p's worth.Brother4 hope ur reading this.:p

[throw a dyce]

Sorry Bekol.Messages crossed in cyber space there.I agree that this isn't the place to finger point.One aspect of over here is trying to adopt a no blame culture.What can we learn from incidents.Defensive controlling.Diffusing people involved in bad incidents.
I remember my last staff report from HK which said Mr xx has not had any incidents.:D:D That was it.:ugh:
It just seemed that they were out to get you at the slightest chance.:hmm:

[RX-78]

atmd cad, i know how you feel when working beside the two ladies in the tower... but luckily i seldom work with them due to team roster... :ok:

i believe the main problem for the new hires is their attitude towards the job. they may be bright, but you just can't be a good atc if you don't respect your job. when i first worked as an assistant in the tower, i paid so much attention coz you never knew when the controller would yell an instruction to you, and you have to pick that up. but guess what is it now? the assistants are busy chatting ALL THE TIME, and they are too BUSY (or LAZY) to regularly deliver the I/B strips to the GMC that they now put the strips (more that 20 in total) all over the GMC position. i wonder who the :mad: had started this practice which i never did as a tower assistant. one fact, you now just can't trust the assistants who, most of them, will be talking to aircraft in the tower in 3 years time...:ooh: (if they are lucky enough to complete the OJT)

no wonder our service standard drops...:8

[atfso]

What do you mean lazy assistants! :mad:

Controllers are also lazy. They take two hours early go! They are very lazy. They are cheating Hong Kong Government money, cheating Hong Kong citizens money.

[BlunderBus]

been flying here 22 years and i think ATC in hong kong is just fine:ok:

[atfso]

Master Ho & atmd_cad......probably the same person, an ATCO......personal attack to another ATCO......these are our controllers......of course don't forget our brother four who showed to the approach controllers the resumes of our SATCOs in question months ago. Brother four, how disgraceful you are! you are the chief of training and safety! SHAME! :=:mad:

[I am retired]

You guys are really embarrassing!!

Thank God I am retired!!

[SevenEleven]

I think that's enough, pals. := finger pointing is the last thing we want to see in aviation field.

if someone next to you not performing good enough, file a complain to your standard officer.

if management not performing good enough, call for a strike.

don't just be brave in front of your monitor and be a coward in front of human being, please.

[Lovely_Management]

..........if management not performing good enough, call for a strike.......

Yes! I do that very often by reporting sickie :E, after I made such report, I then felt great and forgave all these people and my goodself! :p

[SevenEleven]

how dare a educated human being did this:eek: shameless!

[By-stander]

That's because we don't have a union to organize a strike. I suspect some people called in sick because the roster didn't fit with their personal engagement. However, most others used it as a means to tell the management that enough is enough. We don't need the extra 15 hours TOIL each month plus we don't need crazy ASU yelling at us all the time.... Over work and and lousy middle management make us sick.

[throw a dyce]

Why don't you claim back your 10th day,compulsory working.After all you do it for nothing.No training as well.You'll lose the late break,but it's called work to rule.Impose flow control to the other FIR's.:hmm:

[LapSap]

FFS. This thread is going from bad to worse. How the :mad: did we get onto Buddha?
HTFU.

[Beholder]

Hey pilots, dare to fly in the HK skies with the latest patch of Student Air Traffic Control Officers (SATCOs)? They are “phenomenal”.

They think they are genius while everyone else is a jerk:ok:. During class, they played NDS. Of course, they made very good use of wirless lan features, linked up together for team building.:)

Sometimes they would ask questions, not about the course though. They once asked one of the female colleagues the colour of her panties in the classroom. :mad: Wow, how original & stimulating!

They cheated at exams, and they failed the simplest test on basic navigation. Our future genius air traffic controllers blamed it on the instructors. They said the instructors were not up to standard and that’s why they failed.

But what does it matter even if they fail? The management still allows them to progress to the next class. NO disciplinary actions whatsoever for any misbehavior at work. Panties colour or exam results are not a problem. Someone from the management even told these “bright” young SATCOs that the basic courses were just a drama. They need not worry about them because they would do well with their inborn intelligence. To make sure the SATCOs pass the exams, the management told the instructors to change the exam to fit the SATCOs’ sub-standard. How considerate!:ok:

What is management doing this? Because we are short of people and they are genius. It is normal for genius to fail most of the exams.:D

Don’t know about you. But I would make sure I know who is doing the traffic control before I fly in the HK skies in the future.

God bless us all

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Prove it! Otherwise, the first post of this thread should be deleted.

[throw a dyce]

The spelling is Prove it.:ugh: Proof positive we've got a genius here.:D

[BrashAndCurnt]

Prove it! Otherwise, the first post of this thread should be deleted.

That's like asking someone to prove to you that the World is round, but instead of pointing you to a globe, in this case i'd just invite you to ask any nobody who doesn't work behind a desk at the ATCX :D

To be fair though, the students didn't fail 'most' of the exams as alledged by the OP. He may have meant "most failed their exams". Which is kind of subjective because 'most' tends to imply a majority, meanwhile what exactly constitutes a majority is one of those 'is the glass half full or is it half empty?" questions here.

The fact is as a group, they've only had two exams and as individuals they've only had a realistic chance to fail once:- It was alledged in a somewhat reliable manner, that on the second exam (after the Training Unit got a little idea on where some students stood), the EXACT exam questions and answers were effectively made available long before the exam date to the students, part by part (lest they be overloaded, perhaps), for their regurgitational convenience.

People who accuse management of not being proactive about ensuring staff welfare should think again. After all, by pushing more through I can probably start making proper use of my leave entitlements...eventually. Here's hoping anyway.