Netjets Europe Face Court Case Over Tax & Social Security

[Smeagel]

Having a sundowner with an ex-collegue last night who told me that a French operator and union have invited NJE to court over their somewhat parsimonious tax and social contributions on behalf of crew based in France.

Seems this is part of an organised campaign to rein in those companies who seek to reduce/avoid their obligations, one or two airlines have already had to take avoiding action and change basings and contracts.

No doubt Lisbon will initially dismiss this in their usual manner but they may well be forced to deal with it whether they like it or not, but how? Well the company overcrewed last year in anticipation of a large number of resignations when they imposed new tax and SS arrangements. A somewhat cynical move some might think which backfired and left them with many more pilots than they need, many of whom are languishing on home standby these days. So why are they still recruiting? A cynical person might think this development might be leading up to something.

[FLEXJET]

The operator is THS (Trans Helicopter Service). They operate Helicopters, King Airs, Falcon 100s and a Falcon 50.
They filed their lawsuit in March this year.

http://www.ths.fr/EN/index.html

I don't know about the french union involved. Never heard about it.

[No RYR for me]

Hi Smeagel,

We missed you dearly on the forum..... not... You should work in sales as you are very creative with the truth..

There has been an ongoing discussion with most tax authorities for the last two years to ensure that a NetJets pilot can live anywhere. This has been succesfull with most countries. The french have had problems with understanding that aviation is international and operators with an nAOC abroad like Easyjet, Ryanair, Cityjet (before the air france take over.. after that it went quiet.. :rolleyes:) and now NetJets. You tried to make this a topic a year or two ago and nothing happened..

Regarding overcrewing.. why are they still recruiting when you say they are overcrewed... must be a sinistire plan that only you are aware off.. :hmm:

[Smeagel]

There has been an ongoing discussion with most tax authorities for the last two years to ensure that a NetJets pilot can live anywhere. This has been succesfull with most countries. The french have had problems.......

So it IS true? They are facing a Court case. Thanks for confirming that.



why are they still recruiting when you say they are overcrewed

Er, I think that was my question. Do keep up;)

[Alphonse]

Ah, Smeagel - or is it his twin personality, namely Flintstone?

The court "case" - as I believe was reported on the NJE private forum (does Flinty still have access to that as joint owner?), if we are referring to the same circumstances, there is NO case at all. The French magazine that published the original article had to print a correction - & as for THS, as the company (allegedly) lost at least one customer to NJE, perhaps there are grounds for sour grapes, n'est pas??

[No RYR for me]

You read what you want, I did not confirm anything.

I do know that France is the most sorry state in Europe in understanding what European means in aviation. :rolleyes:

[H.Finn]

Me thinks that it is about time to get Netjets Transportes Aereos (who for some reason want to be called Netjets Europe) to a level playing field with other corporate operators, who have to obey tax and social security laws in their own countries.

[redsnail]

H.Finn,

I pay the normal amounts of national insurance and tax. No breaks for me.... :(

[Flintstone]

So you should reddo. Everyone knows you're loaded anyway.:E

On a serious note what percentage of the crew are French these days? Used to be one third. Even if the company were able to pay reduced contributions for one year only that's a major saving toward bonuses at the top so it's worth their while resisting for as long as they can. Good for business.

Interesting suggestion as to what the continued recruitment bodes. Quite a few people have told me they're not flying much at all at the moment which is nice in the short term. Bit like the old days. Could well be the precursor to something else I suppose. Who knows? Above my pay scale, below my bovvered threshold.

[Taxi2parking]

I think it's the other way round, NetJets Europe like to be called NetJets Transportes Aéreos, SA. This is on account of the fact that's there name.:hmm:


Sorry H Finn - bit confused where would you like NJTA to pay their taxes? NJTA's operate under a Portuguese AOC with the operational control in Lisbon. I'm sure NJTA pay lots of taxes to Portugal.


Perhaps it is the pilots who work for NetJets that you are talking about?

[redsnail]

Thread drift.

loaded

Yep, just finished a little snack of caviar, tapenade, worcester blue on cheese and crackers. :ok: Delish.

[H.Finn]

If IBM sets up an office in Absurdistan, they go by the tax and social security laws of Absurdistan. Same should be true with NJTA (who rather would be known as NJE), if they have a gateway in the same A:stan. Should not be too difficult, just one more hurdle in the already complicated business of running the bizjet show.

[Taxi2parking]

Ahh Reddo life as a DINKY.


Mr Finn


Agreed - if they had an office or a base in France.


This is the problem with the court case. NetJets has offices in London and Lisbon. They have no office in my country of residence, France - and why should they. They don't have a base here. Time people realised that airlines are not national 'entities'. All crews pay tax and social security in one of these countries. Why try and prosecute the company when it is operating iaw EU law. Within the EU you can live one place and gain an income somewhere else. However, you don't necessarily pay your taxes were you live, although you must pay taxes somewhere.


What I find amusing is the way that it's a French prosecution. Almost all the French Pilots we employ in NJTA could not find work in France without NetJets, AF having strangled every other decent operator here - I presume THS would like to see them out on the street.


While we are at it why not prosecute BA and Virgin. How many of their guys are living in France and meeting up with their aircraft some where else? Should they have French contracts? All that NJTA has done is allow crew to live where they want and then pays for them to fly to work - and incidently, unlike the commuters in other airlines, included this travel time in their daily duty and subsequent rest. Should we not be encouraging this sort of caring approach?


Anyway let me be the first one to announce the new gateway in .........Absurdistan:D

[ix_touring]

Reddo and TX2, care to comment on crew levels and flight times?

iX

[joehunt]

Taxi2parking

"..and incidently, unlike the commuters in other airlines, included this travel time in their daily duty and subsequent rest. Should we not be encouraging this sort of caring approach?"

I am sure you will get some reaction from Smeagle with that one! Ha!

[ix_touring]

My wife's attitude to NJ changed when she read that its owned by BH/the sage....

She has a point, biz aviation is littered with cowboys and muppets. Lisbon staff get slated here but no worse that the ops depts of the rest of the "Big Airlines" et al.

Yes BH look for profit form their investments and if playing the rules works great, at the same time though, they're not going to screw around either... the staff are the front line to the customer! without the customer (owner) there is no airline...

I doubt you'd see NJE sacking a capt for running out of duty time or running their operation from credit cards or rejecting expense claims and telling you to resubmit next month. (all egs of small biz operators from these forums recently).

iX

[Smeagel]

I am sure you will get some reaction from Smeagle with that one!

Why? What a strange thing to write. That's exactly as it should be so why should I or anyone else be bothered about it?

Fact is that 'proper' bases wouldn't work for the companyanyway so you cannot compare their gateway system with BA/Virgin crew choosing to live elsewhere. NJE/NTAS would have to shell out for a ticket most of the time, doesn't bother them where it's from (within reason).

(It's funny how the pro-NJE/NTAS contributors react to anything I write. Can't help themselves. Mods!!! Can I change my username to 'Pavlov' please?)

[redsnail]

ix_touring,

Regarding your question.
The crew levels for the flights I did was 2. The flight time varied depending on the length of trip.

I doubt this answers your intended question but perhaps you could rephrase it? I dare say it's been answered in the great "all you needed to know" thread.

[FourGreenNoRed]

Its about time, that this issue gets settled in court, so why not now? There could be tons of posts about the tax issue, everybody with an own opinion or two but nobody really knows what the truth is. Legal or not who knows. But how good would a verdict from a french court be accepted in portugal or the czeck republic? So I guess at the end it must be a EU court decision serving as a raw model for other EU companies with a similar construct.

There is no way around it, however, one thousand or more tax declaration should have been filed allready with the national authorities responding to it. So whats your experience with it?

Any trouble with the construct so far?

Lets quote Smeagel: "Discuss" . . .

. . . although I doubt it will happen, since most of the NTA people seem to be fat dumb and happy enjoying a chilled life right now.

[Taxi2parking]

ooooiiiii - I resent the 'fat' bit :}

[ix_touring]

Red,

to re phrase...

you and others in the past have suggested a p.a. flight hours fig of around 450 (though contracted to max of 900 iirc).

Recently, there have been a few (snide?) posts about fewer hours for NJE crews this year.

There have also been some (snide?) posts about NJE over recruiting last year.

So, can you comment as to if your current (seasonally adjusted ) hours are up down or sideways from last year, year before etc?

Are there lots of crews on gardening leave/stand by etc (ie too many), is there overtime if you want it?

Any idea about other fleets too?

Cheers :ok:
iX

[His dudeness]

Hmmm, I have no stakes in NJ, nor am I against them, nor do I know the french tax office personally.

What I do know though, is the german tax office. And they plainly suck. I went to my local office and asked them a lot of questions when I started to work for a Luxembourg based operator. What I got was a lot of drivel, and, serious, no kiddin: if you need this information you´ll have to send a formal letter and you WILL BE CHARGED FOR THE ANSWER.
Europe needs to do a lot of homework before we can call it united. It just sucks.

If the french are a bit like the germans (taxwise that is), then it is clear why NJ is in court.

Now back to topic...

[Smeagel]

Snidex2


Thanks ix, that made me laugh :E

I posed (polite) questions based on first hand knowledge whereas your involvement in Netjets or indeed the bizjet world is based upon......... what? Just remind us of your experience in this field please ;)

I think your weight loss regime is making you a bit snappy and short tempered.


Four Green. Dead right. For the benefit of all concerned it needs clarification. If the tax and SS arrangement is all clear and above board then great. If it's not then the French contingent will find themselves struggling at retirement. I have no doubt the case being brought by the operator contains an element of revenge or malice but if it takes something like this to 'shine the light in dark places' as one of your more.......flamboyant colleagues has been heard to say then so be it. Better now than later.



PS. ix. If it's malice and nasties you want search a few of the older NJE threads. You ain't seen nothin yet sunshine.

[FormerFlake]

You could argue that NJE keeps hiring crews and buying aircraft so no one else can have them...........................................

As for crews being short of flights at the moment, yes. It has been a quiet year so far.

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

Oh you where having a sundowner, you told me you were tucked up in bed! Bitch

[redsnail]

ix, this is a thread about tax issues. The answers you want are found in the other NetJets thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27664&page=55) in this forum.

[ix_touring]

Quote:
Snidex2
Thanks ix, that made me laugh

- then you say

PS. ix. If it's malice and nasties you want search a few of the older NJE threads. You ain't seen nothin yet sunshine.


WTF?

I posed (polite) questions based on first hand knowledge whereas your involvement in Netjets or indeed the bizjet world is based upon......... what? Just remind us of your experience in this field please

Who said they weren't polite?

As for me, I'm a currently a wanabee. (assuming your still reading) I passed OASC and went uni and IT. I've now got the cash needed, the wife earns 6 figures and I can work in the EU or the US (the Wife's a septic) so I can take my pick of my routes to a fatpl...

HOWEVER, NJE's cadet scheme through OAA is damn good value, minimal risk and by most accounts the resulting job is not too bad as low hour jobs go. - all in all low risk.

BUT the tax issue is relevant; I lost out with IR35 (brought in effectively as an IT contractor's tax) and so want to know the risks with working for an EU country other than my own!



I think your weight loss regime is making you a bit snappy and short tempered.


cheep shot ... too many sundowners made you overly sensitive ;-)


PS. ix. If it's malice and nasties you want search a few of the older NJE threads. You ain't seen nothin yet sunshine.


So are you saying if I want these, I'll find them at NJE or from you...?



iX

[Smeagel]

".....the wife earns 6 figures...."

Open question to the forum!!! LISTEN UP EVERYONE!!!

Ahem. Can anyone tell me what the relevance is of Mrs ix touring's pay packet to the matter in hand? Anyone?

No?

Well I confess to being lost there too. Unless of course there's been an outbreak of........ (dramatic chords) DAN DAN DANNNNN!!!! Willy waving:yuk:


Where's 3Greens? At least he never brings a fart to a sh!tfight ;)













Waaaayyyyyyyy too touchy ix. Lighten up

[redsnail]

Tax issues are in this thread. If you're in the UK, then you pay the normal tax and NI like any other PAYE person in the UK. Other places pay tax in Portugal (20%) and NI in the UK.

The other questions you (ix_touring) can be found in the thread I've highlighted.

If you can't find it.
Overtime. Not in the classic sense, but you can work extra days. Max 6 per year. (no, I don't remember the remuneration)
Hours flown have reduced over the last couple of years. Probably because there's a lot less positioning flights now. You won't do the same hours that a lo-co new hire will do.
Standby. A bit more than used to be. I just put it down to training and I am not a trainer... :ok:

Do search the NetJets Europe website as well as OAA for the course details.

[joehunt]

Smeagel

"Why? What a strange thing to write. That's exactly as it should be so why should I or anyone else be bothered about it?"

You have been banging on about this very subject for I don't know how many years, now the situation has been righted and legalised I thought you would have rejoiced, hence my comment.

Sorry to seem strange and perhaps I am.

[ix_touring]

S,

Willy waving ... err no, after all Mrs iX has no willy!


BUT you did ask what my back ground was etc... and I answered (I
realise someone answering one of your questions open and frankly is unusual!).

Red, re the relevance of the OT/stand-bys etc. Are they not related to remuneration and therefore tax?

And yes I have read lots of the other posts/sites, however, they are often rather old...


Anyway, back to the thread (apologies for the creep)...

So those who are based in France, how are they currently taxed/NI'd? (and why is this upsetting the locals?)

iX

[redsnail]

ix,

Whether you're on standby or not, your salary remains the same. The only thing that changes is whether or not you're on home standby or hotel/hot spare standby. If you're at home, you don't get the per diems. The per diems (or allowances) are tax exempt.

OT is extra days flying. That's taxed at the normal rate.

[Smeagel]

You have been banging on about this very subject for I don't know how many years, now the situation has been righted and legalised I thought you would have rejoiced, hence my comment.

Rejoice? Well I did when it was rectified ages ago (I just thought it was odd to expect comment now). At the time I did a little happy dance like this <does happy dance>.

See? :O




ix. Oh dear.

[joehunt]

Oh I was not aware sanity previalled on the FDL's issue at NJE. Well I hhave been accused of being a bit s l o w. Thanks for giving me the heads up. Just goes to show, if one nags long enough they will do something, FDL's.

Keep up the good work!

[Smeagel]

Aye, but you have to keep nagging them and dragging the topic out into the open. Your resident shaman might use some odd phraseology but he has the right idea. Mad as a box of frogs though, bless him.

Lots of aspects better at NJE than they once were and those would not have changed without some publicity and the threat of crew unity (don't be fooled by the employee survey either, it's a con to buy time). If it gets much better I might come back :p

[south coast]

Go on Smeag's....come back, we miss you.