CX Direct Entry Capt

[cpdude]

It's started, CX has hired the first couple of Direct Entry Captains to fly the 747-400! Ex OA pilots not spending a day as an FO. Bypass pay for those delayed a Command course...not a chance. What does the AOA say...apparently not much!:mad::mad:

[Fac6]

On the 744F ? or Pax?

[prairiedriver]

Started? This has been going on for years. Don't kid yourself. We had a bunch of DE Skippers start Jan 08. But it was happening on a small scale basis well before that any way.

Has anyone heard the numbers?

I was spooled up for a course in the fall - Still looks like the fall alright - of 09 or 10!

[Apple Tree Yard]

...uh, it's been happening since 94'. Have we forgotten about our ASL brothers who were hired directly into the left seat? The latest affront is more serious, as we now have a 'unified' fleet (no separate freighter fleet as in ASL). The basic facts are that any semblance of a seniority protected career in CX are over. Those of you young enough to consider another career choice may need to assess your options.

[jandakotcruiser]

DEC's are the way to the future! All this archaic practice of starting like an apprentice working your way up in servility has no place in the modern world. This semi feudalistic practice and the equally obsolete seniority system are the bane of the industry which the airline management make use to the fullest, to the detriment of pilots world wide.

[Apple Tree Yard]

jando, I'm sure the FO's will agree with you.:yuk:

[cpdude]

It has been happening for a while on the Classic as no one wanted to take a command on the classic but these are the FIRST to join the 400 fleet as a DEC on the CX list. I have no problem accepting the necessity of DEC but pay the bypass pay for those already CAT A'd waiting for a command course!

[Apple Tree Yard]

CPdude.....exactly what 'necessity' is there to accept DEC's on the 400..?

[ALPHA FLOOR]

First Oasis RC (rapid Commanders) hit the streets on 6th June. Rumour on the 3rd floor is that they received 100 app's all are being considered. 40 RC positions will be offered mostly in HKG on HKG roster on LEP terms on 744 (since there is no more freighter crewing agreement in place - you know what that means).

First to be offered positions are those who are "recency critical" and G O$$ was amongst the top of that list.

Seems like its jobs for buddies and taking the dinosaurs first!

I would sincerely like to thank NR and PW for giving me the finger yet again!

AFL

[Old Fella]

Apple Tree Yard I guess CX management has seen an opportunity to save a few dollars by hiring current captains direct to the -400. CX was built on being "smart" with the financial side of the business and if they had not they would not be around today. If the pilots being hired directly to the left seat have a past history with CX that, I would guess, is a plus for both the pilot and the company. For one who has only good memories of my time with CX I find it sad that there seems to be so much unhappiness in the company at the present time. Plenty of opportunities down here in Oz if it gets too much to cope with in HK.

[cpdude]

ATY,

The "necessity" is the shortage of 400 Captains...I'm just saying if you want to skip the normal process then pay compensation to those you hurt!:ok:

[Basil]

ATY,

irony
a method of humorous or subtly sarcastic expression in which the intended meaning of the words is the direct opposite of their usual sense

at least I think that's what jandakotcruiser was up to :)

[Fenwicksgirl]

Have put this on another thread so excuse me.
Is the current DEC the same person who has a nomination in for the G.C??
Dont spose that is ironic is it??

[FlexibleResponse]

As always, the bottom line is that the management will do whatever the management want to do...

...unless they are taken to task by the employees.

End of story...

[Fac6]

Fenwicksgirl,

And who do we have to blame for this? Cathay or us for allowing it and doing nothing like the gutless bunch we all are?

[popodom]

Finally someone has woken up to the fact that this is happening,
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::=:=:=:=:

[simplex]

errr. Who's fault is that?

[BusyB]

popadom,

If they are "less junior" whats the problem? Did you want a freighter command? If you did and satisfy the * chamber you should get one.:ok:

[simplex]

BusyB - AOA current committee - zzzt - part of the problem not the solution.

[Very Tired]

Just curious to know if the KA boys are going to get the same reaction? :ouch:

[Capitalism]

I'm stunned. Just an observer no affiliation with CX but why in the world hire captains off the street? Are there not a suitable pool of F/O's with operational experience & qualification to become a commander?

Surely it would make more sense to upgrade and replace F/O's than it would to inject outsiders into leadership roles of which they have minimal experience. In fact, what this probably reveals is an impending lack of interest in the pilot profession altogether.

It would be wiser to entice "outsiders" into F/O & S/O positions with increased pay & benefits respectively.

[SMOC]

Capitalism

These DEC positions are on the freighter which is a lower pay than HK based F/Os on the pax fleet, it's just one of the ways CX divides and conquers its aircrew.

[bobrun]

Ok, latest update: very reassuring to hear that all direct entry captain positions are available to existing crew. Oh but wait, you will have to take a huge pay cut if you want one and go on local terms!

In my view, those positions are not available at all to any current officers if the only way to get the captain's position is to almost pay for it by giving away your benefits!! :eek:

[Five Green]

You have got to be kidding. It would be bad enough if the CO. was sliding them in as Rapid commands but this is ASL ALL OVER

To take commands out of the system and then change the COS to them specifically is outrageous.

I am off to keep phoning someone to do something, .........

FG

[SMOC]

We have got to get freighter pay up to pax pay, that's the only way to stop our COS sliding towards local conditions, which is happening now, before our very eyes:eek:

The company is not going to pay bypass pay it keeps us squabbling, they like the status quo, and lets them continue to erode our conditions. I bet even if we gave up bypass pay (just for this cause) to bring freight pay up to pax, CX would find a way not to. It would actually unite the crew as opposed divide. Then go on to get better COS!

[cpdude]

KJP you have got to be kidding! If someone wins a bid and gets a 400F command in SYD awarded why does a DEC with a HKG base get priority for the command? You decided to award the spots on those bases...oh wait, that was only because of the CX screw-up with ASL!

I say choke on it KJP, who ever is awarded a Command base slot should be also awarded the command course in seniority regardless of base. Remember, that was your fault.:mad:

[BusyB]

stillalbatross,
Its up to you if you believe the rumour mill. What you have stated is wrong.:p

[BusyB]

The New DEC recruits are freighter only. Not Pax, Whats more with ages of some in the 60's I don't think it will be for very long.:ok:

[bobrun]

Aren't DEC specifically not allowed in our COS?? Aren't DEC illegal with regards to our contracts?? Why don't the AOA defend at least our very minimum career protection?? Can't be that hard to win that one in courts!!

The shortages of crew on the freighter is due to the poor conditions offered. The solution isn't to disregard our legal COS and hire DEC, but to bring improvements to make them more attractive. But maybe I'm a dreamer.

They may have lots of command training planned for the next 2-3 years (many of those on the freighter), but with DEC now happening it doesn't mean much. And if you add RA65 to the equation, forget about having a career progression:bored:

[SIC]

AM I just dumb or will these guys all transfer to the Pax fleet eventually and therefore by default hold the rest of us back from promotion?????
AM I just stupid ? Do I not have a clear understanding of the contracts? Or do every single DEFO and DE Captain essentially take a course off somebody else in line. Even though they are all on the freighter - they can all eventually transfer to the Pax fleet and therefore they have jumped the line and all of us are held back.

Please tell me I am dumb and this is not the case?

[Kitsune]

Exactly how many guys whingeing about the ex- OA guys have put their hands up for one of these commands? The package is derisory, but if you want to fly a shiny brand new -400F in the LH seat right away the position is indeed available should you so desire, just pop in and see KJP and you'll be on the next course I assure you.

Those whingeing should see the irony in that the CX Terms and Conditions became worthless the moment the first 'B' scaler signed on the dotted line to undermine CX 'A' scale T&C, this has continued with ASL, 'C' scales 'D' scales and now 'O' scales.

The company reserves the right to recruit crew on new terms and conditions as it sees fit, and as long as there are guys who will turn up for the (increasingly awful) T&C it's just tough titty on those before them. As I say, if you want your command out of seniority, just accept the latest T&C downgrade, KJPs door is always open....... :cool:

[Captain Dart]

Hear hear, Kitsune. 'Who'd join on B scales?' was often heard in the Kai Tak crew room.

[cpdude]

Kitsune, What kind of illusionary drugs are you on? There is a list over a page long of guys waiting for a course. Many are already Cat A! I know of several who have been told "not a chance this year". But keep on telling yourself the path is open for those already in CX...unfortunately a few will believe it.:*

[bobrun]

Kitsune, there's over a thousand FO here and you really think none are interested in freighter commands??

Do you also believe that those DEC are for the freighter only?? Remember that both fleets are now united. What exactly prevents them from using a DEC on the pax fleet in a year or some other future time??

And DEC are specifically not permitted in our COS. It's getting worse by the month. Can't wait for the AOA's election to be over. Hopefully we'll see some changes in direction :sad:

[Kitsune]

If I'm wrong answer me the original question.... how many here have gone to ask for their freighter command on 'O' scales? :rolleyes:

[cpdude]

Kitsune,

So DEC hiring to HKG is OK because no one else will accept "O" scale? So why don't we create a new COS for LHR Captains at 50% of "B" scale salary. No one currently employed with CX will take it and then CX can recruit DEC's. Is that your logic? Who are you ... KJP?:ugh:

[Kitsune]

cpdude, someone who has been with CX looong before there were any 'dudes'..... as for your post, please see my previous re 'B' scalers.:cool:

[Kitsune]

He shoots....he scores!!

You say it was the 'A' scalers fault that 'B' scales were introduced...... we faced a company determined on expansion who said: "We're changing the contract for new joiners, we have a thousand 'dudes' desperate to sign up right now, in fact we've already signed the first course up.... whatcha gonna do about it?"

How is our response different to YOUR response to ASL/C scales/contracts in the mailbox/the 49ers/D scales, and now 'O' scales? :cool:

[sisyphos]

gents, with all respect, but you are doing exactly what management wants us to do : start fighting with ourselves instead with the enemy.
let's stay united, forget that a vs b scale bullsh*t, amen.

[simplex]

:gents, with all respect, but you are doing exactly what management wants :us to do : start fighting with ourselves instead with the enemy.
:let's stay united

Good plan. What do you suggest for the 49ers?

[cpdude]

Kitsune,

On that note...you are correct.

We are our own worst enemy.:ouch::*:ugh:

[ACMS]

We voted against the payscales offered to Direct Entry F/O's in OZ

So, yes we did something about it and can sleep straight in bed knowing full well WE TRIED to stop them.

You did NOTHING.

[water check]

stillalbatross, you are the definition of a moron. The A scalers care as much about this as you do. The reason: we saw what the long-term result of ASL/Bscale was on our earnings (salary down 55% in real terms). Talk big...but what CONSTRUCTIVE suggestion to you have? The history of this airline the past 15 years should tell you that nothing short of dramatic, hard-hitting action will have any chance of affecting the outcome of the companies strategy. Without such action, YOUR career will be hollowed out, depressing and frankly miserable. I suggest you stop attacking A scale, and use your 3 brain cells to figure out exactly what it is you can do that will save YOUR career.

[Hkgdriver]

Gents,although the company has bypassed the FACA (ftr aircrew agreement ) in relation to forcing Passenger 400 drivers to fly the rubber dog shi** , no FTR training captain is permitted to TRAIN on the passenger fleet. Of course if we get rid of FTR payscales and we become a big happy family that would change. ( then we would have another very bitter group looking at pilots in the left seat 11 years out of seniority?)

I think we are going to see a crewing oversupply very soon if kero stays above $150 mark, the classic gets parked then what do they do with that crew group?? All senior to the dragon air and oasis boys, maybe the special leave scheme will rise from the ashes again.

Once again we have lost our chance for a payrise, the fight is on to now hold the line and very carefully defend the contract as it stands, build our unity and concentrate on who the real threat and act accordingly.

[SMOC]

Of course if we get rid of FTR payscales and we become a big happy family that would change. ( then we would have another very bitter group looking at pilots in the left seat 11 years out of seniority?)

How about we up the FRT pay scales, however keep the FTR Captains flying the freighter till they are senior enough to fly PAX, they shouldn't complain :eek: they got a pay rise and had expected to not fly PAX when they opted for a FRT command. :=

Any new Command on the -400 will go back in order of seniority so F/Os should see a drop in time to Command time. :D

S/Os will still suffer however CX always had the right for DE F/Os.:{

[superfrozo]

S/Os will still suffer however CX always had the right for DE F/Os

Yeah, but they are SUPPOSED to be paid bypass pay and be upgraded in seniority - neither of which is consistently happening!!

Nevermind, the SOs are revolting (buddum-bum, TISH!). There will be a changing of the guard soon with a few SOs on the AoA. Nothing more frightening than a one-striper with literally nothing to lose!!

A-Scalers be afraid, be very afraid...:E

[BlunderBus]

I can guarrantee any agreement for 65 will involve a pay cut for the A scale crew..yet again.
If all non A scale aspire to become the lowest common denominator..so it shall be.In the face of non stop company cost cutting pressure do you honestly believe they'll stop once all A scalers are gone?
The most senior B scale can look forward to a lifetime of cuts,hours hikes and a degradation of conditions delivered in exactly the same way they have been for the last 15 years.
Incidentally A scale crew have fought longer,harder and seen conditions deteriorate much more severly than any crew member to date...and to say they didn't fight is absolute crap....most of you weren't here to see it.None of them wanted B scales and still don't.But the work force and the AoA are totally compliant and perhaps you should ask yourselves if you're prepared to put your job on the line to defend a pay cut or reduction in your contract...what's that???? no i didn't think so...just a deafening silence.
But don't fret...your turn will surely come.

[Hkgdriver]

I guess that would be the same A scale that supported the action of 99?
Threat of being fired was not enough, it took the B scale to defend the line for what? Be careful , people have long memories and when they smell bullsh** its hard not to comment.

[lenosho]

The current system in many airlines upgrading f/os to captains and not taking DECs is the most damaging to pilots, period! Airline managements milk it to the fullest, keeping the pilot workforce in subservience. If there is an open market for pilots, free market dynamics will keep salaries, T & Cs and perks up to reflect worldwide demand. Of course there are those who will argue that third world pilots will flood the market...absolute hogwash! Other professions progress but professional pilots stick to this archaic regressive system. Imagine a chartered accountant having to start as an audit clerk when he move company or a top lawyer restarting as an articled clerk or a brain surgent beginning a new life as an intern!

Pilots sticking to the seniority system are like the Japanese " sarariman " s expecting a cradle to grave job security in return for eternal servitude and loyalty. These blokes have no confidence in their ability and hide behind, as jandakotcruiser alluded to, a feudal system with fortresses to protect their pathetic selves from competition. Hey, " the best man wins ' are what they preach BUT NEVER PRACTISE. The hypocricy of the remnants of the East India Company.......free trade, they admonish but then erect barriers like embargos, tariffs, farm/industry subsidies, etc. Likewise when CX, BA, QF, RBA pilots leave to other airlines they demand direct entry but back in their former turfs they fight tooth and nail to maintain their castles and fortresses. Plain greed, lack of confidence and absolutely no sense of natural justice! Bombs away! Flame away guys

[Apple Tree Yard]

selective memory HKDriver.....I was in the Excelsior hotel for almost 2 weeks during the events of 99'...along with many of my A scale colleagues. The irony in the present situation is that the circumstances we are faced with really only threaten the B scalers. Most of us 'old' A scalers really won't be affected all that long by whatever is eventually the settled facts. I suggest you and your army of angry-ant B scalers start to plan a proper strategy that will directly improve your career prospects. Worrying about us is only more time wasted better spent saving your own sorry a**es...

[raven11]

HKG Driver

Are you suggesting all the B scales supported the action in 99?

I was a based pilot at the crew hotel, on the first morning, and along with the vast majority of my A scale colleagues at the hotel, became too stressed to fly. The stress was real, very real. Then to add to that stress, three B scale first officers and one A scale captain flew us home that afternoon on a Company aircraft. How do you think our stress levels were that afternoon, being the first members to call-in? We thought our careers were over (in fact, careers were effectively ended for 49 colleagues that day).

In the next few days, many more crew became too stressed out to fly, both A scales and B scales. I very much appreciated the B scalers who had the courage to step across the line and support their colleagues. It had the desired effect and grabbed the Company’s attention.

But don’t for a minute denigrate the A scale effort by suggesting recalling their action "smells of bull****"; or that 100% of the B scalers took part...that is "bull****".

It was half-and-half on both sides…. The men and the boys.

What was really noticeable and quite remarkable from a "chutzpah" point of view, was that many of the loudest and most outspoken members prior to the event, put their heads down and ran for cover. They did not support their colleagues.

I think of these people when I peruse Pprune these days.

[Hkgdriver]

says it all , how would you know what was really happening? At causeway bay yep must have been real hard slinking back home first class. Agree with you on the loud mouths running for cover like cockroaches when the light was shone on them disgusting gutless wonders. My point was that the majority of my fellow group walked the walk , paid for it by a vindictive management years later and to say otherwise by a poster needed a retort. Anyway the main issue is now is to simply defend our COS, the S/O's are getting screwed by the company, F/O's having their options taken by new joiners because its cheaper? finally age 65, housing and RP08 coming up for barter?? The question needs to be asked what are you willing to do about it? I would not go on a sick out, make questionable operational decisions but would fully support a contact compliance stance and sign a undertaking letter stating that to fellow union members. I actively try and recruit new union members, encourage active debate and ring email the GC members concerns that I have. We all have our concerns and issues how many actually put pen to paper or even pick up a telephone? rant over

[PanZa-Lead]

Ravin 11 well said:ok:

I am looking forward to the day when the last A Scale leaves. B Scales will be frozen (the only reason B scale get pay raises is because of the A scale disparity) and C scale will get the pay raises instead. Then I am going to sit back and laugh myself silly as ACMS ( who is actually a B+ scaler) and his mates keep crying like the 5yr olds they act like.

When the new AOA ( B scale dominated) committee calls for industrial action in the future I and my A scale mates will stand with them BUT I must admit alot of us are getting very tired of the A scale bashing.

Now run along and shave your chest before you go to the gym (instead of meeting for a beer in the pub) and whilst you download the latest phone ring to your mobile how about downloading some balls to your underpants.

[Loopdeloop]

OK, I'll bite
the only reason B scale get pay raises is because of the A scale disparity
I've heard this "pay being dragged up by the A scale" argument before and it's utter nonsense.
You won't find me A scale bashing here - we'd all like a bit of it - but please no more broccoli!

[Frogman1484]

the only reason B scale get pay raises is because of the A scale disparity

If you believe this , you have been smoking something mate...next you are going to tell me that Santa and the tooth fairy really do exist.:eek:

[Feather Boa]

Guys

No one is going to get F@#k All. Have a look At this thread "Final Interviews Canceled for July" in the Wannabes forum.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the opportunity for improvement in COS is gone.

It was 6 months ago!

Fx

[tiger321]

I have just written out a full page reply to Feathers which the computer has "eaten," so her is an abbreviated version:

Feathers,

I disagree with you. The company has a long history of streching/delaying paytalks out long enough so that they eventually co-incide with some form of crisis. This industry of ours historically has a crisis every few years and CX always takes full advantage of this.

The payrise that we have earned is long overdue and should come from the record results of the previous few years. It shouldn't be thrown out on the possibility of a period of harder times. Business is still extremely healthy. This will most likely continue for a long while yet as people still have to travel. I think the last weekly update had us about 10% ahead of budget.

Don't belive too much of the "Fuel crisis" propoganda that you are going to read about. Sure the price of fuel is very high but CX will come out of this much better placed than they would have been if there was no fuel crisis. Our opposition will/have suffer(ed) ultimately leaving CX with a larger market share and in the Oasis case, a partial soultion to the crewing problems.

Despite what the company say a fairly healthy chunk of the increased costs is eaten up by the passenger surchgarge along with the fuel hedging. How does this industry get away with this fuel surcharge?
It costs me 50% more to fill my cars gas tank today than it did a year ago but I have to pay for that. No fuel surcharges to help and no payrise either.

Every time we read that "currencies have worked in our favour" in the weekly news, what it really means is that the crew (HKG) have just gone even further backwards.

At the very least we need to have an agreement whereby we receive a minimum payrise of the inflation % each year. At least that way we are not going backwards as rapidly as we are now.

[B777300ER]

Wow, talk about a disgruntled group....You think you really have it that bad? Maybe, but I know and talked to some of your pilots and they seemed pretty happy to work there still. They talk about how quickly they'll get command and all the "benefits" you guys get. :confused: Maybe they were still new and drank too much cool-aid. But in the end, you guys are so fragmented over there that nothing will ever get done - because you're pilots. Pilots bark loud in bars, forums, amongst themselves, but rarely if ever, actually bite.

Look slightly over to KAL and Asiana. They're hiring DECs and DEFOs also - at a higher payscale than the locals. If you guys really want the DECs and DEFOs off the property, tell some of your check pilot mates to just "fail" the new blokes. It's a dirty tactic, but seems to actually have an effect compared to the spineless, worthless unions they have over there like yours.

And by the way, wake up and smell the coffee guys. You'll never beat the management. Just look at the success rate of pilots vs. managment over the years. (ie Ansett, Eastern, and Continental to name a few)

[FlexibleResponse]

Sad reply...sad person?

[Fly747]

Interesting to see interviews cancelled. Airlines around the world beginning to ground part of their fleets or talk about it. If we are 10% undermanned now it won't take too much of a shift to become 10% overmanned.
Tough times ahead.

[Molokai]

Look slightly over to KAL and Asiana. They're hiring DECs and DEFOs also - at a higher payscale than the locals. If you guys really want the DECs and DEFOs off the property, tell some of your check pilot mates to just "fail" the new blokes. It's a dirty tactic, but seems to actually have an effect compared to the spineless, worthless unions they have over there like yours.


Holy cow, whats the pilot community coming to? As an TRE I wouldn't dream of failing another pilot who is really up to mark for whatever reasons, especially industrial ones or company pressure. You gonna drag your profession into a cesspool!:=:=

[BandH]

Cathay have been changing the rules for years when it comes to CandT. Just look at that ridiculous 'relief' qualification. Five years ago you would have to sweat blood and piss nails to get 3 stripes. The pay rise was spectacular as well!! Another classic case of Cathay's interpretation of effort versus reward!! Now they give you 4 stripes at your first interview (along with your new joiners lube and butt plug). BUT OHHHHH NOOOOOO we're not dropping our standards!! Like F@ck they're not!!:yuk:

W@nkers!!!!!:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[B777300ER]

FlexibleResponse,

Yes, I am sad AND bitter to see how our profession has deteriorated into the gutter over the years due to s&%tty management. Just stated a few factual examples. I browse the Pprune and other forums once in a while and am sad to read more negatives than positives in these forums all over.

Oh well, I guess times do change...

[ACMS]

Question for you guys.

I know a guy that was in Air Hong Kong back about 6 years ago ( the days when they operated the 747's in blue ) as a Capt.

We integrated some of them into CX into the Freighter fleet after we bought AHK? right?

So how come his date of Joining is shown as 1995 in Crew Direct and now he is checking out on the 400 PAX fleet as a Capt HKG base? ( I think he's flying PAX now )

Why isn't his DOJ around 2002? The date of the integration.

How did he get a number based on 1995 DOJ? How does he rate a 400 CN position?

Could someone refresh my memory as to how they were integrated in CX seniority list please?

Ta

[csd]

Why isn't his DOJ around 2002? The date of the integration.

At the time (2002) all AHK flight crew were either VETA or ASL. Some of the VETA crews had originally been mainline Cathay FO's and had therefore kept their seniority.

Also, in 2000 an opportunity was made available for ASL crews to join VETA at the bottom of the seniority list. These crews are now becoming senior enough to take a pax command.

Regards

csd

[Loopdeloop]

For all these guys, DoJ will either be 1 Jan 2000 (the date of the integration) if they're ex-ASL or whenever they Joined CX if they just went there for an early command.
It sounds like the guy you're referring to was a CX F/O, took a fr8r command in say 2000-2004 and is now coming back to the pax fleet.
If he was ex-ASL then, as csd wrote, he must be one of the more senior ex-ASL guys who now hold the seniority for a pax command.

[fire wall]

Stillalbatros and ACMS,
You both seem to peddle an impressive amout of bullsh1t disguised as fact on this website.
Fact 1 : they joined to fly frtr a/c only-agreed
Fact 2 : company intergration sponsored by AOA took place Jan 1 2000. Any time served prior to Jan 1 2000 working for CX subsiduary (ASL) or partly owned companies (AHK) was not taken into consideration when implementing seniority list
Fact 3 : officers now move to pax fleet on seniority.

ACMS quote "So how come his date of Joining is shown as 1995 in Crew Direct and now he is checking out on the 400 PAX fleet as a Capt HKG base? ( I think he's flying PAX now )"

Date of joining and date of inclusion onto seniority list are different. Date of joining was retained only for travel benefits. Date of seniority dictates when pax fleet becomes available.

ACMS quote" We integrated some of them into CX into the Freighter fleet after we bought AHK? right?

No, all of AHK were intergrated. Some in ASL chose to remain for various reasons. F/O's who were close to command stayed in ASL due 3 in 4 rule where by 3 of every 4 frtr commands would go to ASL. Some Captains stayed due to age 60 retirement in ASL. Those that did not intergrate in 2000 now sit with seniority numbers around the 2200 mark as final intergration took place in Jan 1 2008. ASL exists now purely as an employment entity for the remaining Flt Engineers.

Stillalbatross quote :Then after joining on the freighter ran to the AOA and said get us all pax jobs.

Utter misrepresentation of the truth. Check your facts or ask someone who was here at the time that the AOA approached the ASL body and jointly set this up in an effort to address split nature of the pilot group and to boost numbers. It is obvious from your response that you joined post 2000 otherwise you would know this. Regardless of your DOJ you have not been affected.

Further quote : Hence all pax crews from here on in lose 4 yrs command time and about $9 million in pay because of them.

More crap: They joined the seniority list in 2000. Everyone who joined before them and has been CAT A assessed has been given a command course.

Stillalbatross again: quote Plenty on the pax fleet interviewed for a pax job well before them and have ended up waiting for a pax command that will occur after them. Much like KA coming across to take pax commands.

Crap: KA are not taking pax commands and I challenge you to provide anyone who "interviewed for a pax job well before them and have ended up waiting for a pax command that will occur after them" because they just do not exist.

Now go check under your bed for Commies!

[Bow Inn]

Thanks for your reply Fire Wall. I wanted to say the same thing but felt I may be banging my head against a brick wall. You saved me the typing.

Stillalbatros,

Is there anything in Fire Walls post that is incorrect? I think it's spot on. Please don't take your grievances out on the ASL chaps. They just happened to work for a different freight company before they joined this airline. Simple.

[fire wall]

OK, here we go again -
stillalbatross quote: "and then approached the AOA ...."
Please advise all as to who approached the AOA?
ASL reps were persona non grata so it wasn't them.

further quote "freighter command with only a 40% reduction in pay in your HKG F/O package " (Love the "only" bit. Pure Gold)
How do you get it so wrong? The pay scales for all bases and all ranks are available as an addenum to the COS. Your sums do not add up.

Basically Stillalbatross you do not have a clue as to what has transpired over the last 8 years and you have absolutely no reason to feel agrieved because those that are going to the pax fleet now joined the company long before you did. It's called seniority.

Duh

[iceman50]

Stillalbatross

To make your "sums" work now you are adding in "Housing" + Schooling" + "Medical". They just make it possible to live here you pl*nker, I would NOT expect to get them in my home country! :ugh::ugh:

[Bow Inn]

They had an opportunity care of the AOA and they took it and avoided doing the S/O years.

So this is your problem. You joined the airline with a few hundred hours on turboprops from the bush and these guys stole your job. All the ASL chaps I flew with had thousand of hours heavy jet time with other carriers or significant military experience. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with young SO's with limited experience, but that's why they come here. To gain some jet time and get to the right hand seat of a wide body aircraft with a legacy carrier.

I met an SO when I joined who told me that the average ASL captain was "sub standard because they hadn't been through the rigorous passenger fleet selection process" and was therefore not worthy of the same recognition as himself. Ooh please, come on chaps, get a grip. This post is not a dig at SO's. But if you're twenty something with some twin time, then you can't expect the same opportunities as a forty something who's been around a bit.

I repeat. This is not a dig at SO's but just my thoughts on the real world. There's more to life than Cathay and the ASL blokes I flew with had a lifetime of experience and knew that this place shouldn't be taken too seriously. As NC says, "its only a job."

As myself and Fire Wall have said before, if you joined the CX seniority list before these guys, then you have nothing to worry about. They will get a pax command after you. Now if you're man enough to go across to the freighter and suffer the roster and the lifestyle for a few years, then be my guest. You'll have to drink beer with the ASL blokes though and heaven forbid, even have to get used to Flight Engineers. Now we're talking.

By the way. I accept that the ASL thing did delay commands for a many FO's on the passenger fleet. But ASL was the companies little baby and not the AOA's. If you have an issue with ASL then I suggest you take it up with the management and not each other. That just furthers the "divide and conquer" policy, which is exactly what they want.

Flame away.............

Fire Wall........you have control.

PS: My wife thinks I should get a life and stop reading this s**t. Maybe she's got a point.

[fire wall]

stillalbatross,
quote: You know as well as I do that a lot of guys wanted to join CX and not as an S/O.

No dispute with you S.A. Still happens to this day.

quote: Are you telling me that for the good of the pax fleet and the career progression of the S/O joiners (no DEFO's back then) the freighter amalgamation back into the pax fleet took place? Bwahaahaahaa.

No, this is not what I have said. Try re reading what I wrote some two posts back. What I am trying to get thru to you is that on the date of intergration the ex ASL officers (Captains and First Officers) received a seniority number along with any of the S/O's and F/O's that joined on that same day (yes, contrary to your statement cx was employing direct entry F/O's on the Frtr ). That seniority number has moved foward due attrition / resignations and now sits at the mid 900 mark. What you seem to have misunderstood is that the intergration was brought about to counter the divisive nature of ASL as a bargaining tool against the company. Further, the process was initiated by the AOA not, as you so eloquently state "they ran to the AOA and said get us all pax positions".

I am reticent to call into question your integrity but if you had spoken to the sitting GC or president at the time you would not be sprouting such rubbish.

Time for nosh.

[badairsucker]

Is it me, or have this forum getting more like my school days?


As a bunch of professionals with a fair amount of common sense it amazes me how we can all be fighting between ourselves like pathetic little kids in the school playground. When are we all going to stand together and stand up for what we deserve.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:


Stop the bloody infighting.........

[ACMS]

All I know is that this guy was with AHK from '95. He was a Capt on the 742 classic and in 2000 he must have joined the CX seniority list. Now he's got a 744 Pax left seat based in HK on a fairly good housing allowance.

How'd he rate that after only 8 years on our list?

[4PW's]

Timing, I'd guess.

Like everything else in life.

[ACMS]

Well that's why I put the question forward to you all. I hope he's only for the freighter fleet.

BUT how does he get a generous housing allowance then? I thought the freighter guys were getting screwed on a HKG basing?

[Kitsune]

WHAT a tosser you really are ACMS......... :rolleyes::yuk::rolleyes:

[fire wall]

ACMS, I am ashamed to work for the same company as you.
Just what sort of psychological profiling allowed you to slip through the system.

[US Marine]

bow inn

i think we should all listen to your wife....she does speak with a tongue full of common sense

[Bow Inn]

bow inn

i think we should all listen to your wife....she does speak with a tongue full of common sense

Lets not get too carried away..........

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU&feature=related

[ACMS]

Well actually I do...............He lives in the Gateway, and it's not cheap.

He was a Capt in AHK, he did come accross to CX around 2000 and now he's undergoing training on the 400.fleet, most likely it seems the Freighter.

All I was doing was asking a question, you guys really do get worked up.

Everything I said is 100% true and I don't have a problem with the guy if what he has been given is following seniority, infact he probably deserves it.

There are a lot of highly experienced Pilot's flying freighters for us, did I ever say any different?

I was trying to workout how he was able to live in the Gateway on a 400 freighter command HKG that's all.

So settle down you lot.

It wont effect my command, I ALREADY have one thanks, but it might have screwed a lot below me that don't.:=

You don't think CX would ever bend the rules do you? Nah wouldn't happen I think:D

[Kitsune]

ACMS:
"All I know is that this guy was with AHK from '95. He was a Capt on the 742 classic and in 2000 he must have joined the CX seniority list. Now he's got a 744 Pax left seat based in HK on a fairly good housing allowance.
"

See previous remarks re tosserdom.... :cool:

[Liam Gallagher]

"If they're so wonderful how come so many of them shot through to HKG for a pax F/O job when their freighter command came up?"

Your choice of answers

a. Money.... chance to experience expat living... the same reasons you did...
b. The AOA told them to, thereby, depriving some yet to join SO, who once built an Airfix kit, his rightful place on the CX seniority list.

ACMS... if you took an nanosecond to ask or listen; you would know that Command seniority is now 1 Jan 2000 and therefore the first of the ex-ASL pilots are senior enough to hold pax commands... surely you have no problem with that or are you with Albatross.... who thinks seniority should run from date of application or date of building first Airfix kit:rolleyes:

[Bow Inn]

Alba Dross,

I think I sense a little jealously in your tone. Maybe you're intimidated by these chaps previous experience.

You appear to be a very bitter man. If you had flown the freighter, then you would have experienced a very demanding roster. 12 day patterns and only 4 to 5 days off in between, makes a serious dent in your lifestyle. When their 3 years were up on the freighter, many elected to become FO's on the passenger fleet in Hong Kong. A change is as good as a rest. In exactly the same way that an SO chooses to accept the opportunity to move to the right seat as a JFO. Why are you so bitter about this particular group of pilots?

If it bothers you so much, look up this individuals telephone number in crew direct and give him a call. That way, you could get your facts straight and not open your self up to such criticism. Don't assume, check!

[treboryelk]

I think if the company is holding off pax slots due economic conditions and leaving guys waiting for years then the AOA shouldn't have been pushing to get freighter guys into the pax fleet at the same time. One group of crew screwed the other.

Albadross.....you seem to have a complete misunderstanding of the whole DEFO issue. Before 1st jan 2000, there was just ASL flying the freighter. ON that day, ASL pilots were allowed to join the bottom of the seniority list. just like you and i did when we joined. the ones that didnt join generally did so for reasons like a quicker freighter command or the chance to work until they were 60 (as opposed to 55 in our CoS).

every other freighter pilot who has joined cathay since then has joined the cathay seniority list on his date of joining. they do not move to hkg to take an SO's chance of an ugrade, they move to hkg to take a pax position that was by right theirs. SO's do three years making beds, then upgrade. DEFO's on the freighter do three years on the freighter then upgrade to the pax fleet. it is the same thing based on seniority and has been for 8 1/2 years.

ASL? most joined cathay in 2000, of those who stayed, most of them have either retired or joined oasis or similar, leaving how many? 10? and they were integrated to the pax fleet this year not after begging the AOA to become a passenger pilot...no...because the company could not crew the freighter with the FACA in place. remove ASL, no FACA, we all fly the freighter.

just take this away from this.....most freighter pilots choose to fly the freighter because they dont want to be an SO or would rather have a basing. they move to the pax fleet by rights, not taking anyone elses place, just in pure seniority having served a minimum of "3 years on the freighter fleet". so to the ASL bashers out there, get a grip of the facts. To the SO's who think that DEFO's on the freighter should not join the pax fleet....well the move is theres by rights!

[Bow Inn]

But I'll shut my cakehole as i'm starting to sound like a stuck record.........

Not quite. You just haven't been able to construct an effective, conclusive argument for any of your points. In fact, none of us responding to you have been able to work out what your issue is.

didn't fly the freighter so I dunno how badly that roster sucked, but that's what you signed up for wasn't it?

We knew what the roster was like before we took the job. We also accepted, as per the contract, that after 3 years, we would move to the passenger fleet. Just like an SO knows that after 3 years as a cruise pilot, he gets to become a JFO. Simple.

Of course if I was in ASL and the AOA said "hey, you wanna fly for a pax airline instead.............."

You clearly have no idea of the background to any of this. Another immature response. When did you join?

I just think the whole ASL episode was handled extremely poorly by the AOA which amongst other reasons explains why the membership is down the toilet.

Which means that we'll be seeing your name put forward for the next GC, thus blessing us all with your outstanding grasp of industrial matters.

Any news yet on the facts concerning that naughty ASL man who has upset you so much?

[Liam Gallagher]

"Of course if I was in ASL and the AOA said "hey, you wanna fly for a pax airline instead.."

Whilst that may be what you want to believe; however here's my version...

After a fairly bloody battle lasting the first half 1999 that saw CX effectively grounded for a number of days due to a fairly comprehensive pilot sickout, the company had all the pax guys (but most notably the "A" scalers.. Capts if you will) on a sign or be fired. With about 72 hours to run to the deadline, which in theory could see CX fire all its pilots; a rushed/ fraught deal was struck.

To put this in perspective, I can recall seeing the press conference detailing the "landmark deal" featuring Swire's TT and the AOA's TP on CNN; this was world news! This deal had significant, but staged paycuts for A scale (offset possibly/partially by share options), small but staged pay rises for B Scales, a commitment to resolve Roster Practices and the end of ASL as a separate pilot recruitment agency of CX; because the AOA believed it undermined the careers of junior crew.... ie you

Flights Ops proposed that ASL be ended by a Voluntary Integration. You may think it was a great offer for the ASL guys; however you have to remember that in 1999 by signing to Veta you signed away 5 years flying and lost all your seniority in terms of command. Also you have to remember the ASL/ Veta guys were not on the best of terms. For neither the AOA nor ASL was this a great deal.

Albatross, I doubt you read this far....way too much info.. you are far more comfortable believing the AOA stitched you.... so be it.

PS Come on tell us... what did the nasty ASL man do to you?

[Numero Crunchero]

B scales
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA


The AOA has been fighting a dunkirk style rearguard action for over a decade now trying to preserve T+C's. The Company has successfully Goebelled its way into having pilots believe all our current ills are due to the AOA.

To the whiners on this website, fix it or get out of the way while others try to fix it!

[BusyB]

Well said NC:ok:

[Bow Inn]

Spot on Mr.NC,

Couldn't agree more. To all those willing to put in the effort and work on the GC, well done. I just don't have the passion within me to make such a commitment. I'm very grateful that there are those out there willing to contribute much of their personal time towards the greater good of the pilot body. Good on you.

An old friend of mine many years ago referred to military administrators (blunties) as "speed bumps on the road to mission accomplishment." I suggest that the negative voices on this forum are very much out of the same mold. You're just background noise.

[broadband circuit]

Not quite true Stillalbatross. Don't forget about our colleagues who have the seniority for command, but are not in the left set.

A wicked combination of Cat B, C & D FOs, many in VERY dubious circumstances, and some guys who've decided to stay on bases, rather than return to HK for command - mostly a lifestyle & financial decision, proving that the "premium for living in HK" is a myth.

Look around, you'll be surprised at the number of people out there in these categories, and then ask how many current captains suffered the indignity of a delayed command - usually a big dose of intimidation to make them "appreciate their jobs"

[iLuvPX]

What the AOA has failed to protect its members from:

B scales
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA

Members give a good chunk of their salaries to the AOA in order to be protected from the company imposing the above.

I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.

AOA..NO WAY!

[BusyB]

Do tell us what you've negotiated individually!!:}

[JoeShmoe]

Quote:

I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.


NC won't/can't really help...he has a history of quitting.:=

[tiger321]

Joe,

OK, we all know that you don't think NC is going to see out his term. Now please give it up. You are like an old broken record. You obviously have issues with NC.

Do you care to identify yourself, as NC has, so that we can vote/not vote for you in the GC elections? I'll give you the benfit of the doubt but my money says that you are not on the list trying to make a difference.

If NC was running for president he would certainly have my vote. I would rather have a man who is willing to make a stand for what he feels is right than a bloke who justs accepts a shafting happily.

[Liam Gallagher]

How is an SO's career progression different post 1 Jan 2000 than pre-2000?

CX has always recruited DEFO's. Initially it was exclusively to the pax fleet pre 96ish, then to ASL 96-2000 and then post 2000 to the Freighter fleet and now 2008 to both fleets....

I understand that when SOs were originally introduced (pre-2000) they didn't go onto the Seniority List as DOJ..... do you want to return to that system?

Now Princess, dry your eyes and tell us what the nasty ASL man did to you? Did he have fat fingers... lack of lube.. not send flowers the next day...what?

[Cider30]

From here on all pax commands go to ASL freighter pilots


I am simply speechless. The pre-ASL guys now up for Pax command joined CX list in 2000. If they had joined as SOs, DEFOs or as ASL DEC does not matter. Their number is now up. The only part of your arguments that resembles reality is the ASL guys never made bunks (at CX at least)

I can't make it more crystal clear for this guy. Will somebody please take over.

Cider30

[US Marine]

stillalbatross

maybe you had to make beds for 3 years because you were a slow learner......

all pax commands from now go to those who get to the top of the list...be they SO, VEta or ex-ASL.

entice us to a decent argument.....rather than just act stupid is as stupid does

[Liam Gallagher]

This is not the first occasion that you have spouted tosh about ASL and when faced with facts you say "move on" only to spout on at another date.

You said.. "From here on all pax commands go to ASL freighter pilots". I think there about 80 ex-ASL pilots on 1 Jan 2008... then after those who want/pass Command (and not all do:eek:) you are back into guys who joined as SO's from 2 Jan 2008... "Ops normal" to coin a phrase...

Albatross look between your legs and see if there are 2 dangly things, if there are, find the courage to answer these two simple questions.

1. Are any of these ex-ASL pilots Junior to me?
2. These pilots are now vacating Freighter commands; have I applied for these now vacant commands?

I await your, as always, considered reply..

PS My understanding is the KA guys come with a DOJ that gives, rightly or wrongly, little or no recognition of their time in KA.... do you know different?

[SMOC]

We need to get freighter pay up to pax pay! It's the only way to put Command opportunities back in order of seniority.

I'm not against guys taking early commands on the freighter - it's an immediate pay rise. Why wouldn't any new joiner who has 10 years to wait but already has the experience for a CX command just do them as a Captain on the freighter?

He probably gets to live in the country of his choice and also the choice to stay there on the freighter if he wishes, 'til he's senior enough for a pax base.

Now if freighter pay was equal, any new command on the -400 would come from a conversion from another fleet. It's amazing how CX doesn't do pax commands on the -400 due to sector limitations yet they do in on the freighter everyday - I bet you would see commands on the -400 instantly as CX changes the rules to suit them. Guys/Gals in the 900+ mark on the seniority list would be inline to take all the available commands which they should be! :D (There are 15 more 747s on the way - fair enough the classics are leaving).

Secondly any new joiner who was looking for a pay rise via an early command might just realize the COS is just not worth it without the command option.

Face it HK isn't worth it any more, why not join on a base then make your own pay rise by taking a freighter command.

Captains are leaving the pax fleet to take a pay cut by flying the freighter just to get on a base. I saw the list on D don't know H's desk!

So once again CX WINS! as we screw ourselves bickering. :ugh:

Soon the freighter fleet will be bigger than the -400 pax fleet! so in theory the majority of Capts, F/Os will be paid less than the minority! Now that makes sense :eek:

[Liam Gallagher]

"We need to get freighter pay up to pax pay!"

Yep and we need "World Peace" and we need "no child to go to bed hungry"...

Care to tell us how..... ???

If you are going to type... "stop bickering amongst ourselves "or such platitudes.... save Danny the bandwidth, because like I said these threads follow a pattern....

[Fly747]

The 70 or so joiners from KA will have a DoJ of 1st July 08. They will be kept in their current KA seniority order and there will be no other NJs on that day.
Is that OK with you stillalbatross?

[SMOC]

Liam,

You're right, but if I had all the answers I wouldn't be in this job. :}

How about the AOA propose it?

Yes it's a common theme, but are you for or against it? It's the only way I can see us having a somewhat unified pilot body and also restoring some balance to the seniority system.

[Liam Gallagher]

Sorry SMOC I assume you are extracting the urine... however on the off chance you are serious...

"How about the AOA propose it?"

...does the number 49 mean anything to you....

"but are you for or against it?"

No, I am not on a Management Bonus, so like everyone else I'm against. Even putting aside the moral issues, and acting in pure self-interest, I know it is now Management's target for pilot's salaries... Unified FO Salaries ring a bell....

PS Albatross.... found those gonads yet...???

[Liam Gallagher]

I guess the answer is "no" then......

Grow a pair.....

[US Marine]

stillalbatross

are you saying that the ASL guys joining CX seniority list in 2000 cost you 4 years in time to command? most suggest it was only two years delay, which although a shame is a lot less than you claim. i trust you are not factoring failed command courses into your grumbles!

[Numero Crunchero]

still albatross,
I am not sure if you are just sh1t stirring or genuinely perplexed by our industrial history. I will assume the latter!

From late 80s till 1996 - experienced applicants applied for FO positions (wasn't called DEFO as the majority of joiners were FOs back then) and the inexperienced applied to be SOs. CX screwed around with seniority making it DoJ in HKG, then date of course in ADL then date of upgrade to full FO from Junior FO. Basically they managed to p1ss off several hundred pilots with changing rules on seniority...this was mid 90s...any similarity to today?

From 1996 to 2000 the choices were, broadly speaking, FO in ASL or SO in CX, regardless of experience. Needless to say the ASL option was not desired by those that were recruited to it nor those affected by it. One of the outcomes of the 99 discord was the chance to reunite all pilots in one seniority list...now something to keep in mind...the ASL pilots gave up seniority to join the CX seniority list. Not only that they gave up a potential quick command, as I believe they were promised a 3/4 command rate for ASL versus CX. So to now berate the guys that switched over to CX is incredibly insensitive and ignorant. Those guys gave up fast commands and time in company for the greater good of a common seniority list. So to say they cost you time to command makes me question your understanding of seniority!

Now I do have a reputation for liking numbers...so just to humour me please explain how all those guys giving up their seniority to join CX on 1/1/00 cost you quote "7-9million" and 4 years to command? The guys that joined as SOs late 1999 got a faster command because of the incorporation of ASL guys on 1/1/00.


Just to give a big picture perspective to this, something sadly lacking at this airline!; there is no rhyme nor reason to these events. Still albatross, if you really believe the AOA has planned the current mess and is responsible for it, I suggest you sue them for lost potential earnings. I have only been involved with the GC for a short while in my career but in that time they managed to hide their machiavellian plans to screw your career!


To non AOA members...there is no silver bullet to our problems. What I do know for sure is that 2400 individuals will have no more success, and likely to have less success, than an organisation that represents 2400 pilots. History is replete with industrial examples proving that hypothesis. But if you believe you know better, save your 1% and when anything bad happens, tell yourself it was the AOA's fault, and when anything good happens(as if!) tell yourself it is because you saved your 1%. To me being in the AOA is like taking anti oxidants....can't prove it helps but I know it doesn't hurt.

[SMOC]

...does the number 49 mean anything to you....

What do the 49ers have to do with proposing a pay rise for the freighter fleet?

No, I am not on a Management Bonus, so like everyone else I'm against. Even putting aside the moral issues, and acting in pure self-interest, I know it is now Management's target for pilot's salaries... Unified FO Salaries ring a bell....

Sorry but who's "everyone else" - freighter guys wouldn't want a pay rise, the guys/gals next up for command wouldn't want an earlier command?

The unified F/O salary was a effectively a pay rise, CX wanted DE F/Os to be based on freighter pay the AOA made sure it was based on pax pay!

The moral issue? Yes it's disgusting that colleagues should get a pay rise :{

What are you on? a pay rise is a good thing! or does it only count when it's for you? :=

[Liam Gallagher]

take a deep breath . I thought my post was pretty clear...I'll say it again in more words..

One of the stated aims of the 2001 dispute was "A-Scale" for all. As you know some individual members of the AOA suffered very badly as a result of that dispute and the AOA is now a shadow of its former self as a result; so to suggest that to date the AOA has failed to ask/suggest a common salary is fatuous.

The only pilots to benefit from Freighter Pay are those on Management bonuses. Even if a pilot didn't care that someone is paid less than him, the very real danger of that attitude is the lower salary becomes Management's target salary. With the A scale pay frozen, inflation is making A=B; Currency and home country inlation is eroding HK B scale such that B scale FO's are accepting C Scale commands. New pax FO's are receiving something more than C, but less than B on the UFO salary.

Without doubt new joiners on lower salaries are bad news for all pilots; unless of course you are on bonus....

[Liam Gallagher]

Whilst I am sure NC will reply to you, it seems the main thrust of your angst is you think the AOA should not have agreed the 2000 Integration of ASL.

In 1999 the AOA saw benefit in the Integration as it removed the threat of the company forming other ASL's to further denegrate pilot's salaries and divide the pilot group. I understand IFALPA was involved and the AOA wished to get a "scope" clause in our COS.

The company essentially agreed to recruit all future pilots into CX/Veta, but on a "Junior Fleet" concept for the freighters. I believe the AOA held its nose and agreed this because, firstly they were all about to fired in 72 hours, and secondly they saw that by reunifying the pilot body they could regroup and then take the company on at later date... ie July 2001....

You have a mental model how things would have been if ASL had of remained separate with the pax and freight worlds separated; one on B and other on C scale. Do you really believe the company would have settled for that? What makes you think you would not have been recruited as an SO into ASL2 Ltd and on a B-scale lite?

Integration has not been without it's benefit. Many of your contemporaries have picked up Freighter Commands and are now on base and presumably fairly content. SO's who joined in the 90's have done the early Freighter Command, done their 3 years, and are now yr 5 pax Capts.... Has the AOA's decision benefited them?

Whilst I note you haven't answered my questions directly, I assume you joined after 1 Jan 2000 and that you haven't applied for a Freighter Command because it is not attractive to you.

So to summarize your position, pilots senior to you are getting commands and that upsets you. Pilots junior to you are taking commands that you do not want and that upsets you. Before you joined, the Company had an Integration; you knew that, but joined anyway... it upsets you....

Another question if you have the minerals...

Why don't you just leave..... please....?

[SMOC]

I totally agree with you. That's the reason we should aim to get rid of freighter pay because it is the lower pay and the target as you say for management, and as we both said people are leaving HKG B scale pax commands for O/S freighter pay.

[Numero Crunchero]

If you joined before the formation of ASL then it cost you time to command. If you joined after most ASL pilots were reintegrated(ie 1/1/00) into CX then time to command reduced slightly. That is because some of the freighter commands went to CX pilots as opposed to all freighter commands going to ASL pilots before 1/1/00.

Now lets look at the ASL pilots that joined CX 1/1/00.
The Captains remained as freighter captains on whatever base until their seniority allows them to become pax captains - I suspect that will be in the next year or so. So how do you assert they got massive payrises? I don't know if any are pax captains yet so they are still waiting for their massive payrises after almost 9 years remaining on their freighter pay. Their pay(ie CX freighter) was so poor that some even gave up being freighter captains to be HKG pax FOs, after their seniority had built up enough to be FOs - around 2003-2004.

The FOs - well they have been well and truly screwed by the reintegration. If they had remained in ASL they would all be Captains as 3/4 of the commands were promised to ASL FOs back in 1/1/00. Instead those FOs that transferred across had to do a further 3-4years as freighter FOs before finally having the seniority to come across to pax FO. Those guys are still waiting for their seniority to build up to get a command on the pax fleet.


Unlike other airlines, CX never separated pax and freighter flying completely. That is why since the late 90s you have had the most senior and expensive A scale CNs flying the freighter on many occasions. Management is either too myopic or have too much 'loss of face' to ever admit to getting the freighter equation wrong. Pax FOs are getting more senior and more expensive due to delayed upgrades - so whilst CX appears to win on the freighter costing they lose on the pax costing.

Politics wise...I wasn't involved with the reintegration of ASL in 1999 but I know many of the participants and I might respectfully assert they knew what they were doing. The aim was to reintegrate not separate! I can assure you the AOA did look at other airlines and talk to other unions. For the american style of unionism to work you need american pilots under american protection. Likewise for UK or Aussie unionism...just because other people had wins doing things their way doesn't naturally mean we did things the wrong way! Still you are entitled to your own opinion and I hope you are one of the 22 nominees so you can share it and be the silver bullet we need!


By the way, I have no idea how you got the numbers you got. Firstly, how do you come up with a 4 year delay to command? If you joined after 1/1/00 then your command is/was not delayed at all as the ex ASL guys are senior to you. If you joined before ASL was formed then you are already a CN and I can tell you my delay was not 4 years, probably closer to 2years.

For the sake of a numerical exercise I will assume your 4 years are correct. That means you missed on CN1-SCN2 pay for 4 years then remained 4 increments below for the remainder of your career in CX. Assuming you were due to be a CN today but will be delayed by 4 years from today, the NPV of all the future lost earnings, using your 10% discount rate, is close to $1.6million HKD.

[Apple Tree Yard]

NC...why don't you stop referring to the A scale as 'the most expensive'...and use the term 'higher paid' instead? Your phrasing is prejudicial and implies that they are paid 'too much' by comparison. Needless to say, none of us is paid what we're worth anymore. Thank you.

[BlunderBus]

excuse me for being thick...but why should ANYONE have to take a pay cut to get a promotion to captain??? regardless of what they fly in CX:ugh:
and pax f/o's going to the freighter for commands and freighter captains coming to the pax fleet as f/o's???????what the hell is wrong with this company?

[Sygyzy]

It was ever thus. Senior copilots have (almost always) earned more than junior captains by cherry picking trips with good overtime and allowances, certainly on bidline based roster. That's why some guys prefer to remain in the RHS-it's life style. Do you work to live, or live to work?

[SMOC]

Except CX doesn't have a bid line nor a system to "cherry pick" never has. The reason CX can have freighter Captains paid less than pax F/Os is due to the fact they have divided all the pay scales so that the crews are divided, and therefore easy to conquer, a managements dream! :sad:

Edit: Clarification

[BlunderBus]

...are we on the same planet?...or do you work for a real airline with a rostering system that includes(any)input from the crew?

[simplex]

>excuse me for being thick...but why should ANYONE have to take a pay cut to get a promotion to captain???

You don't have too.

[BusyB]

There is only one seniority list so I don't understand your question. Are you saying someone is flying pax aircraft as a Captain out of seniority? If so, pm me the name and I'll check.:ok:

[iLuvPX]

You are wasting your time stillalbatross...

Busy B is part of the AOA, the association thats as useless as t1ts on a man.

The AOA doesnt think anything is wrong with DECs. There is no threat to the old timer, A-scale, good ole boys.

AOA, no WAY!

[Fenwicksgirl]

iLuvPX, would love to see how much better you would get on with the company on individual contracts and no representation, i am sure you would be up there banging on Nicks desk...yeah right!!!
I do share your frustrations with the AoA but trashing them is not the way forward, we have an opportunity to replace some of the older members of the GC now and hopefully...hopefully start putting the company on notice.

[Liam Gallagher]

Still bleating on...

If you believe there is a DEC on the 744 pax, PM me the name or put the flight number and date on here.

There is however, no restriction on a "DEC" Freighter Commmander doing his training on the pax fleet......

Put up or shut up

[water check]

stillalbatross....another brilliant question (regarding the 777 DEC's).
What do YOU think genius? Airlines the world over making redundant hundreds, if not thousands of pilots. What chance that a 'few' of them would apply to CX out of desperation.....?

[Numero Crunchero]

stillalbatross/IluvPX et al,
you speak as if 'the' AOA is some omnipotent being that has degraded and devalued your contract! The AOA is, wait for it, us! All of us...there is a representative body of all of us called the AOA General Committee...and it has the power to do, wait for it, nothing! Every bad decision, every contentious issue that has arisen for the last decade or so has been voted on and accepted by the majority. So when people say "the AOA has given away 5-4-3" or "the AOA is happy with DECs" or "the AOA has helped introduce C scales", they are effectively saying "we accept these things and will do nothing about them but will pretend the boogey man did them so we can look at ourselves in the mirror".

IluvPX, obviously you are not about to join the AOA given the tenor of your posts. So please enlighten me, and all the other idiots in the AOA, what the alternative is? I really couldn't care what the grouping is called...whether we joined the DPA or the CPU, just tell me the answer to all our problems. Or do you believe that 2300+ individuals will be more effective than one collective organisation? If the 'deals' negotiated, on individual basis, by the extendees is anything to go by, I would suggest that individual negotiation puts you at a significant disadvantage.

The 'AOA' doesn't have the answer - we do, we all do. It is only as strong and effective as we allow it to be. We have spent the last 6 years too scared to scratch ourselves for fear of what the zoologist or Manchestarian Candidate will do. When is enough enough?

My best advice to you....imagine what your life would have been like if you had been knocked back by CX - is it some miserable existence in a polluted overcrowded city with a salary that falls far behind inflation and with a management culture more akin to a Japanese POW camp or is it possible that you could have been happy?

CX, its just a job!

[BusyB]

stillalbatross,

I don't think that indicates a Captain on the pax 400 only someone being trained for the freighter.:ok:

[Bow Inn]

Stillalbatross,

I think its taken half a dozen individuals and several pages to try and explain some very simple facts and concepts. I suspect you are either very stupid or just trying to wind people up. I trust its the latter or we're all sharing the skies with a complete muppet who shouldn't be let loose in the family car, let alone a jet plane.

Now get a grip......

[iLuvPX]

NC, come on now. I hate to introduce facts into your fantasy, but i think you need a huge dose of reality.


Every bad decision, every contentious issue that has arisen for the last decade or so has been voted on and accepted by the majority.

Just when the pilot group was getting some balls and momentum behind them to not accept junk from the company, they vote NO to the RPs(i think that what is was), then the AOA turns right around and says their votes dont count, because they dont know whats best for them and effectively changes the vote to a YES, completely stifling any momentum or cohesiveness. That act in itself was criminal..yet nothing was done about it.


Or do you believe that 2300+ individuals will be more effective than one collective organisation? If the 'deals' negotiated, on individual basis, by the extendees is anything to go by, I would suggest that individual negotiation puts you at a significant disadvantage.


Using simple common sense, through the AOA we have received nothing and even experienced a decline in just about every thing. As individuals, some people have organize great deals for themselves...BKK basings, paid commutes, extending, and so much more. And all those extendees have been way more effective than the AOA. They signed a contract till 55, and have managed to extend past that age. With the AOA I have ZERO chance of improving my conditions, by myself at least I have a CHANCE.

So the question I have for you NC is simply this. What has the AOA done for its members? A pay rise in the last decade, more spots on bases, better conditions of service, better work rules, individually wrapped sandwiches??? Give me anything positive they have accomplished.

[slapfaan]

iLuvPX..

I'm with you 100% on this one..
NC is constantly trying to justify ALL the money he has spent so far on an utterly useless,spiness and pathetic organisation called the AOA..

..who has done absolutely NOTHING for it's members..even though there have been 1000 opportunities to do so..

One thing I have suggested in the past is INDUSTRIAL action.Has the AOA ever proposed this to its members to test their reaction and the viability of such a step? NO...they haven't...:eek:

Now why would that be?Well, as with all their other failed attempts in the past,any vote "not in favour of CX" simply means a re-vote UNTIL it favours CX management..whom I'm convinced is in exactly the same bed as the current AOA GC gang..:yuk:

So much for democracy and an independant, representative pilots body!!!:=

[Numero Crunchero]

IluvPX,
there were two decisions that were revoted on....RPs and 49er compensation. Although they failed on first vote with much subsequent 'spin' were revoted on and succeeded on second vote. In the case of the RP vote, on both votes the majority wanted to accept it but there were insufficient votes to satisfy AOA rules to pass it on the first pass.

So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority. The corollary to that means that there is a very disgruntled minority that didn't like the majority vote. Somehow it is "THE AOA"'s fault and not the majority of members that we have RP07!

My personal view is that there should never be a revote without significant change and consultation with the membership over what changes were needed to have the vote pass. In the past the majority of the GC thought it knew better than the majority and re - presented the votes with much scare mongering! If you were AOA members and could read the manifestos of the GC nominees you would see that most nominees realise they don't know better than the majority and would not endorse a revote! I have not voted for GC nominees that think they know better than the membership - I like to leave that level of arrogant representation to the company, not the AOA!

I am glad to hear that some individuals have gotten good deals on an individual basis. One example of what the AOA is trying to help prevent, for many non members I might add, is housing allowance for LEPs on bypass pay. Our CoS quite clearly states that FOs on command bypass pay are entitled to CN pay, benefits and allowances. CX management have decided that they don't want to pay CN's housing to LEPs on bypass pay, which is an obvious breach of their CoS.

So if you want to continue to believe that the AOA is out to reduce CoS etc then that is your right! I would prefer to think of the AOA as protecting our CoS from constant and unjustified attack by management. Its an esoteric argument though as neither of us can prove what things would be like without the AOA's efforts over the years.

slapfaan,
like you I hope the new President and GC will be more truly representative! There are many AOA members who are sick of non members receiving any gains but at no personal cost to themselves...if we had contract compliance, non members will be 1% richer and can work any individual deals they want with CX. There is a huge number wanting any future deals to only apply to members - still you are certain you can do better by yourself so next payrise that is negotiated I suggest you do the honourable thing and reject it or pass on any 'enforced' gains to the Sunnyside club....to accept it would be hypocritical as a non member.

I am not sure how many extendees we have as C+Ters and freighter pilots...but out of the 20-30 I have met ALL of them are on vastly inferior terms than they were before 55 - so I guess there are quite a few people who do seem to get worse deals when negotiating on an individual basis. But please do give me some examples of those that have got fantastic deals out of CX by negotiating individually!

[iLuvPX]

Damn you NC, your non-emotive and constructive arguments have disarmed me once again!! I do think you are by far the best thing the AOA has going for it, and if you were to be voted in as President, I would most certainly defect and join up.

That being said, I shall launch one correction then holster my 6-shooter.


So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority.


Huge misstatement NC. Ever since the 49's debacle, the AOA has never held even close to a majority of the pilot body. Even if every one of the members voted the same. So the majority's voice has never been heard; only those of the retro kicking, company voting GC members and the biggest muppet of them all, ST.

Its a sad statement that more people would rather not be a part of the AOA, with no voice, than be a part of the problem with a voice.

The AOA is broken.

[BusyB]

Ilovepax,

The majority of the AOA members voted for those items. Are you representing ALL the non-members when you say you were against it, I don't think so.

AOA membership is approx 60% of pilots which is the majority.:ok:

[Numero Crunchero]

IluvPx,
thanks....I will be running for president the week after I am made the next DFO - hang on a minute, I am not qualified to be DFO as I haven't done an Arts, Archeology or Zoology degree - damn, I knew those finance and MBA courses would be a waste of time!!!

You are correct - it is the majority of those that voted that were in the AOA. Even then we didn't have 100% of eligible members vote. What concerns me is why pilots don't join and don't vote. If you feel you are happy to go with the majority then you don't vote. If you feel there is nothing you can do that will improve things then you don't vote (or join the AOA) through apathy. We need to reinvigorate the pilot body and have them believe that we can make a difference!

They say the difference between a pessimist and optimist is experience...I guess I need more experience as I still believe that with concerted action we can improve things here.

I don't like the direction the AOA has been heading in, I don't like having my democratic vote revoted on, I don't like my representative body act as the selling agent for every sh1tty deal management comes up. I don't like GC members telling me they know whats best for the majority especially when their view is in the minority.

I don't like the puerile communications management come up with...I know we have been called 'million dollar morons' but our train set managers must be 'fifty cent fools' to think we would believe such stupendous fallacies such as "we are not short of crew" and, my favourite, "RA65 will reduce time to command".

So I find myself in that place of "put up, shut up or fix it"! I have no silver bullet, but all of us combined do have the silver bullet. Yes things look grim in the short term but remember D day was over a year in the planning...what we do now sets the stage for 1-2 years hence. If we believe we can achieve nothing then nothing is what we will achieve.

OK, you have holstered your gun and I will take my soap box home;-)

[iLuvPX]

NC, i appreciate your efforts and think your vision is one that the masses can rally behind. As far as supporting the AOA..it has been completely tarnished by current owners. You would need a new name, a new association, a re-branding, fresh start, anything besides, in which to build upon. There are already too many band-aids, false promises, and misguided people under the AOA umbrella.

Busy B, you display the attitude and lack of intelligence that has become synonymous with all that is wrong with the AOA. I bet you put as much effort into responding to these posts as you do in GC meetings...you already got yours right..who cares then..right?? Open your book and read that under the AOA voting rules, you dont need a majority to pass a vote..something put in there to protect the thinning ranks of A-scale takers.

I look forward to the day when old dinosaurs like Busy B have been removed and replaced by more intelligent, well spoken, people, interested in improving conditions for all, not just the few.

PX..out!

[BusyB]

iluvPax,

Thats OK then,we can leave you to get on with your social work and negotiating.:}

[SAD]

There were 3 re-votes. Housing, RP's and the 49'r re-employment deal. To acheive a pass the second time around, on the first two, we were threatened that no deal will be made on the third unless the first two pass. Then look at the ****ty deal the 49'rs got. All done with scare tactics and BS. I hope things can change but those are the facts.

NC you said: "So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority. "

How wrong you are, I never saw a vote on COS 08, the new extension policy, blatant breaches of the COS, and many more policy changes that have been changed with no votes, something as simple as the excess baggage allowance was surely not voted on.

[Oval3Holer]

This thread is called CX Direct Entry Capt

As KJP said, these positions were offered to all current CX pilots. All current CX pilots chose not to accept these degraded Conditions of Service, so CX is hiring Captains off the street (well, not really ;)).

Only we, through whatever legal means we have at our disposal (not much), can change the situation. The AOA (meaning WE) continues to stand by and do nothing. Let's either do something dramatic, or shut up and take it up the :mad: like good little boys and girls. Remember, this is China, and it is still Swire country. We're just modern versions of British Imperial subjects. Are we gonna have a revolution? Absolutely not. But, 2300+ little needles surely can do as much good as a big bonk on the head! What was the latest, 100kg of fuel saved (wasted) per flight can trim (add) millions from (to) the annual fuel bill? Think...

[Kitsune]

I understand there may be a lot less OA pilots coming than was originally thought....... the latest part of the sandpit to modernise outbid the miserable 'O' scales offered...... :ooh:

[GWN type]

What do people expect the AOA to accomplish? Have they ever been in a genuine bargaining position to further the interests of the membership?