Jet* Importing Pilots

[hadagutful]

Lots of topics on the go at present but I just heard on the local ABC news that Jetstar is going to "import" 75 pilots, didn't say at what level of course (captains?) or where from.

I know we live in a globalised aviation labour market but can I assume from this that the pilot application 'in' trays for Jetstar and Qantas are empty or there is just insufficient pilots applying for the positions needed?
It was stated that no Australian jobs would be lost.

How easy is it to recruit from overseas when there is a global shortage? Will the standards be the same as here?

Any comments?

[pithblot]

The rules are changing/have changed.
The chickens are comming home to roost.
We let it happen.

[Gingerbread]

See post below by AIPA's President - transferred without comment from the Qantas Pilots' chat site:-

Ian Woods (http://www.flightlevels.com/forums/member.php?u=3205) http://www.flightlevels.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 1,313


While I am concerned to read that Qantas Jetstar is intending to bring in direct entry A330/320 Captains, it is also disapointing to note that industrially it would not be possible if Jetstar EBA 4 didn't facilitate it.

Nonetheless, before any bites down too hard and breaks a tooth, I need to point out that it is not yet a fait accompli?

Unless the pilots concerned are in fact Australians returning home from far flung parts of the globe to take advantage of the 17% pay rise imbedded in Jetstar EBA 4, the quote: "has secured the support of Immigration Minister Chris Evans and Employment Minister Julia Gillard," may not mean the Government has issued and/or approved the issuing of the necessary employment visas.

While I have no doubt that the Ministers support Qantas Jetstar's application for 457 Visas; as I understand the approval process, Qantas Jetstar Management are required to consult and agree with AIPA and AFAP as part of the approval process.

As for the quote: "the first visas was processed last week" - it probably was. Without any consulation whatsoever, the outgoing Coalition Government gave approval on the quiet for a small number of Visas sometime before the 2007 Federal Election.

Don't jump yet, visit: www.aph.gov.au (http://www.aph.gov.au/) and send an email to your Local Federal Member, cc, Ministers Gillard and Evans leting them know that Qantas Jetstar does not have a shortage of pilots - just a maldistribution created by Management's desire to silo Qantas, Jetstar and Qantaslink pilots.


:)

[boardpig]

This is the beginning of the end guys.....:ugh:

[sid-star]

How many times is this debate going to resurface. For :mad: sake, get over it, it's getting boring. Write to your Local Fed Member, but give it a rest here.

[Casper]

They are NOT Australians returning home from overseas. Australian Financial Review 26/05/2008:

http://www.afr.com/home/viewer.aspx?EDP://20080526000020707717&magsection=news-breaking&portal=_home&title=Jetstar+flies+into+foreign+pilots+row&source=/_xmlfeeds/news/feed.xml

In the clawprints of the Silver Budgie follow Kevin 07 and tribe. As ye sew (or have sewn), so shall ye reap.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

I have been looking at what opportunities exsit in Aus to return home to fly.

The fact is the pay and conditions are not worth it.

They cannot get Aus pilots to return for that reason.

I guess Ill return to Aus once I retire from flying

[flyer_18-737]

Are these overseas pilots decent. I dont want any Garuda, Adam-Air type of pilots now

[Gnadenburg]

Just exacerbates the "chronic shortage" abroad I suppose.

Is it only the QF pilots putting up a fight against this? What about the Jetstar pilots? Virgin Blue or the AFAP?

The standard is appalling in the Airbus contract world. Caveat emptor!

[Transition Layer]

Email has been sent. This is something I will fight long and hard against.

For those wanting to do the same, here are the email addresses:

[email protected]
[email protected]

And to get an email address for your local member, go here:
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/memlist.pdf

Cheers,
TL

[KRUSTY 34]

The point has been well made that this crisis is Global. As such, J* may find that to make this sort of thing work, they will have to Compete for the necessary labour.

Oooops....!

All the way down the food chain airline managers are looking at importing overseas pilots rather than retain their existing experience base with better terms and conditions. Doomed to failure guys.

Stop grasping at straws and embrace the reality. Otherwise you will be the ones without a chair when the music stops.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Did the Jetstar Pilots actually READ their EBA??????????????????

[stubby jumbo]

Sim instructors are also coming out on these Visa's for the same reasons.

..............move on.

[permFO]

A very interesting letter from Capt Woods to the troops. As he states, don't get all wound up over something that hasn't happened yet. What I thought was particularly interesting is the admission that EBA 4 provided the pilots with a 17% payrise! BTW the talk is of a recruiting slow down so I think 75 pilots from overseas is a speculative figure. The other possibility if the figure is correct is that they would be sent to Vietnam to crew all the new '320s there.

Just another minor point, it's not Qantas Jetstar, it's Jetstar, a Qantas Group Airline.

[geeup]

I work overseas with a number of expats who would be happy to return to Oz aviation but the money and conditions are better overseas. J* just want to screw everyone :ugh:

[breakfastburrito]

Krusty34, unfortunately there is a "trump card" in the deck - Australian citizenship.
Many will come at any price to gain the Aussie passport for their family. Once obtained, I'm sure many will become "soldiers of fortune" to the highest bidder.

Any prospective pilot should consider if this is the industry for them, given that rewards for risk are diminishing rapidly.

[boardpig]

Otherwise you will be the ones without a chair when the music stops

I say, choose a different chair and leave them to it. Finally the words "profession" and "pilot" are partners no more. ;)

I'm sorry but what is happening here is incredible. Forget the young'ins getting into aviation now, what's the point?

sigh.....:oh:

[A. Le Rhone]

For what it's worth, a copy of the letter I sent to: [email protected] ([email protected])

Dear Ms Gillard

Just a quick email to explain my situation and express some concern at the Jetstar plan to unnecessarily recruit overseas pilots.

I am an Australian pilot, living and working overseas since 1991.
.
As a result of the then oversupply of pilots (exacerbated by the collapse of Ansett), airline bosses took the opportunity to aggressively suppress and actually cut employment terms and conditions for pilots. Whilst that may have been their prerogative as profit-oriented individuals, as the current ‘predicament’ attests, it was shortsighted. It is a direct consequence of this action (that made the return on the investment of training to become a pilot unviable) that regional airlines are now faced with a pilot shortage – and the airline managers have the audacity to complain about it! The likes of Qantas/Jetstar and Virgin still have many Australian pilots available to them.

The airline manager’s statements that they need to employ foreign pilots to remedy the situation is nonsense.

The reality is that this foreign recruitment drive is simply a further attempt to suppress the salaries of Australian pilots. Jetstar’s Alan Joyce talks about being in a global market, but if the airline were paying globally competitive salaries, Australian pilots would remain in the country rather than leaving in droves as they now do for the likes of Emirates and Cathay Pacific.

Additionally, there is a reason that Australian airlines have historically been amongst the world’s safest and that is due categorically to the extensive (and expensive) training that is mandated by CASA at all levels in the industry. I have flown for many years overseas with pilots from all nations and I can confirm (without being xenophobic) that the standard of initial and recurrent aircrew training that CASA regulation demands is superior to all. By attempting to employ non-Australian trained aircrew, Jetstar will effectively bypass this critical safety valve.

In my own case, I am an Australian citizen, possess more than the maximum qualifications suggested for Jetstar employment (I am a Captain with thousands of hours on the very aircraft Jetstar fly) but having applied online many months ago have failed to receive even a reply. I am not alone in being in this situation.

On a global basis, the Jetstar package is poor but I am potentially prepared to sacrifice financial rewards in order to have my children live back in the country of their birth and to be near their relatives. Having spoken personally to some of the South African pilots involved in the Jetstar 457 work visa situation, they are appalled at the low salaries Jetstar are paying and are planning only to temporarily work for the airline in order to obtain Australian residency.

In summary, I believe that airline managers are manipulatively creating a smokescreen with their cries of a pilot shortage and therefore ‘being forced’ to employ pilots from overseas. They are trying to hoodwink government authorities into allowing them to employ non-Australian pilots when in fact there are many Australian pilots prepared to work for these operators, particularly if they pay globally competitive salaries.

In your capacity as Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, could I implore you to deflect the misleading claims of the airlines in their attempt to gain 457 work visas for non-Australian pilots and instead revamp their terms and conditions of employment to retain qualified Australian pilots, of which there are thousands.

Thank you for you time.

A. Le Rhone

Could I suggest that all of us similarly write to Evans and Gillard. It takes 5 minutes and can't hurt.

[EPIRB]

Interesting to see that some of the low cost operators are folding overseas due fuel costs. I wonder how the low cost operators in Aus will handle this and if this will have an impact on recruitment as Perm FO says.

[Muff Hunter]

I have been in contact with my local minister who is in a very marginal liberal seat.

She has said that this issue will be raised in parliment and will
contact me when she has more info.

Hopefully she will do this and put some pressure on the labour government, but i'm not holding my breath.

I'm almost ashamed to say I work for these pack of greedy bastards.

Message to you Alan Joyce, every dog has his day and hopefully your comes soon. ditto for Mr Dixson.....:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[DirectAnywhere]

Well, anyone waiting for the AFAP to do anything will be sorely disappointed. Lawrie Cox has already sold you out. I heard this on ABC news this morning and had to listen twice. It's been included in the following article:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/26/2255176.htm

The Australian Federation of Air Pilots says it is disappointed by Jetstar's plans.

Federation spokesman Laurie Cox says the fact that the airlines need to go overseas to fill senior vacancies shows the long-term problem of training in the industry.

He says at least the foreign pilots will be senior enough to help train Australians.

"They'll be direct-entry captains with type-rated experience and they'll be able to go into vacancies and provide training opportunities, which will actually give us opportunities for our regional airline pilots and our general aviation pilots to train quicker," he said.



YOU'RE DISAPPOINTED LAWRIE?!?!? What a joke. I can really see that bringing in DECs on an A330 is going to do a lot to "train our regional airline pilots and our general aviation pilots quicker."

What about those who work for Jetstar? How do you feel now that your command is being sold to the lowest overseas bidder desperate for an Aussie passport?

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Your post number is very coincidental with the topic EPIRB! ;)

[newsensation]

I understand Qantaslink are in South Africa now employing pilots :ugh:

[triadic]

Recent comment indicated that there were well over 100 CPL+ holders working in the mines in WA. Pay the $$ and many of these may surface??

Its not a pilot shortage, its a shortage of $$ for pilot's!!

[Lawrie Cox]

What I said today in several interviews is that we would prefer Australian Pilots doing the job. There is also an MOU between QF, Jetstar and AIPA that if surplus pilots are available in QF we would be happy to see them in preference to a S457.
That is up to AIPA to argue.
My point on the training is that many more Australian pilots will will benefit quicker as a result of type rated pilots being available on either A330 or A320 this is something we are continuing to work on.
Just on another note the incoming pilots will be be paid no better or less conditions than existing employees.
We like others made representations to Government but in the end the Government issued the approvals. No surprise from my point of view as politicians listen to business a lot more than any lobbying by unions (irrespective of party or promises).
The Jetstar pilots and the Federation will be working to minimise the impact of this decsion and no command has been lost (or sold) as a result and none is planned to be lost.

I do not mind being quoted but try and put into context of fact rather than perception for a bent against either the Feds or myself.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[breakfastburrito]

The Jetstar pilots and the Federation will be working to minimise the impact of this decsion and no command has been lost (or sold) as a result and none is planned to be lost.Lawrie, can you please elaborate?
Will 457 holders will enter J* as Captains or First Officers?

[Lawrie Cox]

The initial employment is aimed at Captains but if the requirements cannot be met there is a possibility of F/O's longer term. Although we will be working to avoid anything more than necessary to keep AOC requirements.
LC

[What The]

The Jetstar Pilots are rooted in terms of their seniority if this is allowed to go through unchallenged.

All you F/O's in JQ should be carefully considering how you respond to your commands being given away to foreigners.

Don't hold your breath for the AFAP. They will do anything to get their name on an award.

Poor form Lawrie.

[bloggs2]

I know a couple of Autralian pilots working overseas that have been accepted by J* but have been told they are in a 'holding pattern' until further notice. I guess they know what they are holding for now.


My point on the training is that many more Australian pilots will will benefit quicker as a result of type rated pilots being available on either A330 or A320 this is something we are continuing to work on.

:confused:

[Lawrie Cox]

What the
Another fine piece of intelligent thinking. Seniority not affected. Do anything to get their name on the agreement? Wrong but why let facts get in the way of a good 'slag'.
It is a pity more pilots do not spend more time trying to unite as they do to divide then we might actually see some good outcomes.
As said earlier no commands have been given away nor will they be under the EBA which is the direct entry process currently used by the QF pilots.

Bloggs
If they are type rated and waiting a start date get us the details as we are happy to get them in ASAP but if they are recruited non type rated then this is the problem faced in terms of the training pipeline. Again i can only operate with factual information not crew room gossip.
LC

[Keg]

I guess it's pretty clear now why J* wanted the EBA signed off so quickly....and found the means (AFAP and a compliant JPC) to do it!

It doesn't matter which way you cut it Lawrie, the reality is that had J* responded to market forces and paid their crew what they deserved then they wouldn't need 457 visas to start off with. Your 'support' for them as you've articulated on this forum is surreal. It may not affect seniority but the reality is that a number of qualified pilots ready for upgrade will not be able to avail themselves of that opportunity.

It is a pity more pilots do not spend more time trying to unite as they do to divide then we might actually see some good outcomes.

Strange. It appeared to me that this is exactly what AIPA and J* pilots were attempting to do until the AFAP stepped in and sold a sub standard EBA to an expanded pilot group. If I can't vote on a SH EBA- because I'm not covered by it- then why were a bunch of J* crew on AWAs allowed to vote on a (previously voted down) EBA when they were also not subject to it. Don't bother with an answer, you've already shown how far you've been compromised.

[Muff Hunter]

I say anyone who has joined the AFAP, make it your last year.

They/Lawrie have done NOTHING for the pilots in this country for as long as I can remember and my last straw was when they decided that the JQ EBA was a good deal and should be signed only weeks after stating that it was sub-standard and should be voted down.

They have allowed the managers of these airlines, especially VB and JQ to screw their pilot groups and it's time to make a stand.

I say again, do not give these useless amatures your hard earned anymore.

[Lawrie Cox]

Keg
I await the outcome of your LH EBA to show me the value of your argument in the meantime Jetstar pilots do enjoy the benefits of the new EBA much to your displeasure it would appear.
Perhaps you may show me a fact in your argument that an F/O is or has been disadvantaged as all currently qualified F/O's have a planned progression in the Company. FACT
Your proposition that AIPA is about unity with due respect is 'full of it'. We tried on several occasions to have constructive conversation with AIPA about uniting only to be shown the door, thats over years not the last five minutes when under threat.
AIPA has not done anything for the Jetstar group than what they are paid to do: PROTECT MAINLINE FLYING. Remember the statements no more than 23 aircraft and the 787 will done by mainline. Also note the Federation has done the work over years despite the sideshow created by AIPA as a distraction because you want control of the flying that you see they are gaining.

Despite the above we keep talking to the leadership of AIPA only to be continually undermined by AIPA propoganda. About time we worked together but trust is something you actually show not just say for the spin.

The vote on the EBA was legal and incorporated every Jetstar pilot who was proposed to be covered by the Agreement and guess what it does. We removed individual contracts and improved the previous document. Yet again a fact.
Keg I appreciate you didnt want an answer so this is to correct the snide innuendo and deal with facts for those who truly are interested in the profession of pilot rather than the power play of the leadership AIPA.
Lawrie Cox

[cbradio]

I don't believe I'm reading this.

457 Visas to bring in foreigners to do a job plenty of Aussies (it appears) are capable of doing. It appears big business want "supply and demand" to be a one way street.

No command may have been lost, but in the not too distant future plenty won't have a command they otherwise would.

And the Union thinks this good? :ugh:

[speeeedy]

Who's running these 457 visa's? Sounds to me like Lawrie is in it up to his eyeballs:

There is also an MOU between QF, Jetstar and AIPA that if surplus pilots are available in QF we would be happy to see them in preference to a S457.

My point on the training is that many more Australian pilots will will benefit quicker as a result of type rated pilots being available on either A330 or A320 this is something we are continuing to work on.

The initial employment is aimed at Captains but if the requirements cannot be met there is a possibility of F/O's longer term. Although we will be working to avoid anything more than necessary to keep AOC requirements.

If they are type rated and waiting a start date get us the details as we are happy to get them in ASAP but if they are recruited non type rated then this is the problem faced in terms of the training pipeline.

We, the royal we. AFAP is now doing AJ's bidding. These are all quotes that sound like they have come straight from Joyce, not a union.

How about the facts Lawrie?

There is absolutely no shortage of qualified Australian pilots in this world (in fact, quite the contrary), there is just a shortage of those who will prostitute themselves for a sub standard wage.

These opportunities should be given in house first, within the QF group (particularly Qlink) 2nd and qualified Aussies abroad 3rd. Thats it full stop. There are so many pilots in those three options that you could crew three airlines, but the problem is you might have to pay industry standard wages. Rather than do that J* know they can lure what are effectively political refugees from SA at any price with the Aussie passport as the payoff. Disgraceful.

We do not need foreigners coming in, yet you don't just stand by as it happens, it sounds like you are actually materially assisting the process.

I hope the Jetstar guys can now see who they got into bed with. :mad:

[Lawrie Cox]

MH
People can make up their own minds about the Federation. As for the ill informed comment look at the real outcomes against false promises what is on paper will always outweigh the crew room or bar sniping by the 'Perry Mason's' of the pilot fraternity.
Obvious that you do not read or you would have seen the changes and what is in the document and supported by the majority of Jetstar pilots.

CBR
I did not say we are happy about it. Look for the alternates as i have stated AIPA can run the QF pilots alternative if available and we support it. Our position is clear if we have Australian pilots available then clearly we will fight to have them there. GIVE US FACTS please not high hopes.

LC

[Lawrie Cox]

Speedy
I am not running the Company argument the facts are that the Government approved the S457 despite opposition from all pilot bodies. Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.
I do not set the price that you feel is right to come home too.
Thats also democracy you have the choice not to come home as well, or wait until it moves to a point where you will be happy.
I also make this observation which is clearly forgotten by some we are just as often criticised by fellow pilots in other countries for coming into to do 'their' work but that appears to be OK on your standard but not if they appear here at the same T&C's that apply at present?
As the Industrial sysytem that you may have been familar with was dismantled some time back we have to work with the available tools not high hopes.
LC

[permFO]

Despite the continuing assertion that Jetstar are low paid and have poor conditions still no one has picked up on the letter from Capt. Woods that under the EBA Jetstar pilots got a 17% payrise. I'm still to be convinced that Jetstar is about to be inundated with foreign pilots. There is a whole swag of Command training going on at the moment and they are all internal upgrades.

[rmcdonal]

From a non-airline pilot trying to get a grasp of this...

J* Offer DEC to foreign pilots because they don't have the numbers to fill the seats, fair call as this doesn't take away from FOs moving up. However there are Aussie pilots flying overseas current as Capt. on type who would come home if the price was right. Airlines don’t want to pay the price and therefore declare shortage of pilots. Using this declaration the airlines then get permission to bring in foreign pilots to do the job.....

Could I use this same logic and say.... offer a job paying $10hr to work at KFC, no one wants to work for $10 so I say I have a worker shortage, the gov then gives me 457V and I get a bunch of foreign workers over to do the job. Because this cheap workforce is now available I can pay the rest of my staff $10 as if they don't like it I can replace them with more foreign workers... Am I close???

[Keg]

I do not set the price that you feel is right to come home too.

Didn't you leap in and endorse the J* EBA? Didn't you provide assistance to the JPC? Didn't AFAP play a part in expanding the number of crew allowed to vote on it to include those on AWAs and that this is what got it over the line?

The reality is Lawrie that it is the actions of AFAP that have resulted in these 457 visas. Had AIPA, AFAP and the JPC worked together on the EBA then perhaps we would have seen Aussies getting these jobs or even- heaven forbid- QF S/Os getting F/O slots in J* as J* F/Os upgraded to Captain! :ugh:

There is no shortage of pilots in Australia, just a shortage of those willing to work for crap conditions. The JPC and AFAP endorsed those conditions and therefore you have endorsed the use of 457 visa holders. Well done Lawrie. Well done. :rolleyes:

[Keg]

permFO. It has been noted and acknowledge for a while that the J* EBA had a 17% pay rise. A shame that had we all worked together it may have been 25% or more. Alas, we'll never know! :(

Macca, spot on mate.

[speeeedy]

Lawrie,

Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.

If you know that, then that should be the line you run, your media should have been ALL about that, and that alone.

- There is no shortage.

- There are plenty of Aussies who want the jobs.

- The present package is obviously below industry standards.

- The Visas are being used to circumvent this problem.

In other words: Jetstar is employeeing foreigners to keep wages low whilst plenty of Aussies are now shut out.

They are the lines you should be running with, not the apologist Bulls%#t that is evident in your media and posts here.

I remain entirely suspicious that you are in bed with them on this one, your defence of it is a give away.

[Keg]

What Speedy said!

That sums it up Lawrie. You're not outraged over this and you should be. The reason you can't be outraged is because you were part of the problem in signing off on a crap EBA- albeit a crap EBA that was 17% better than the previous even more crap EBA. You can't be outraged because to do so would ensure that J* simply responds with the fact that it was YOU/AFAP who endorsed the deal and thus these others don't want to come home.

[permFO]

Keg-I must have missed all the other references to a 17% payrise. Technically it was only 3% with the performance and retention bonus bumping up the numbers. The company acknowledged that if pilots were leaving in significant numbers because the money and conditions were better elsewhere,then they would have to come up with more money. From what I can see that hasn't happened yet,but it will be interesting if the people recruited for the 787 have to wait much longer, whether they will stick around. After all, once you have flown a 777 all over the world, taking an A320 to Ballina does not hold much appeal. GB

[Pin Head]

can't see what the problem is. loads of aussies in europe taking jobs of the locals there.

can you see the management at Jet* putting a pilot from a light twin (with truthfully, the wrong type of experience in the way of worldwide op's) into the right hand seat of a new 787 when it arrives? there is no shortage of people looking for the first step on the ladder but when it comes to the crunch you need people with experinece up there. heard of a crew in the uk with a 2000hr Captain and a 200hr FO, in hours that is sweet FA. PS by the way, I did it the hard way as well self funded, instructor, light twin, airliner route.

lowering wages: supply v demand curve really. the more people willing to come and work the more they can play around with the T & C's.

it is the year 2009 - a global workforce. other than convincing immigration at the ports of entry there are and should be no barriers to work!!!!!

[Going Boeing]

Lawrie, I have to add my two cents worth. What Speedy and Keg wrote is 100% correct. AFAP did not improve the J* EBA4 as the same EBA that was previously rejected by the majority of J* pilots was voted on a second time with the only difference being the inclusion of pilots on AWA's (who were previously ineligible to vote). This was done with the assistance of and endorsement of the AFAP. At that time, the J* pilots were in the strongest industrial position possible and you assisted the J* management in shafting them - purely to do a bit of Union empire building. The majority of J* pilots were screaming out for strong Union leadership and advice but instead you were busy playing politics. There are a lot of pilots who read PPRuNe who rarely/never post but they take it all in - I suspect that AFAP membership will continue to shrink because of your lack of leadership. :ugh::ugh::ugh: :yuk:

[Loiter1]

Pilot shortage? No, I prefer to see it as an aircraft surplus. Wait till oil hits $2 a barrel and see how many pilots Jetstar (or any other LCC for that matter) is hiring, let alone from overseas. :hmm:

[Maisk Rotum]

I was one of those that left several years ago because the salary was so crap. There was an EBA vote during my tenure that was successful. I couldn't believe how bad the offer was so I resigned to earn more than double overseas. There was also the nepotism that was astounding. If you weren't ex AN then you got nowhere. Part of the problem is that the boys and girls that voted for the crap deal got what they voted for. If it had been voted down, guess what would have happened? Do you think the Irishman would have said "too bad then, we cant afford to operate this airline with wages any higher than this so we will just wind the company up"? I think not somehow.

[Gnadenburg]

The government has voiced concerns over a wages break out. They have stated a policy of using immigration to counter it. So this action is stated government policy.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

Speedy
Quote:
Yes I know of pilots that would come home tomorrow for the right price.
If you know that, then that should be the line you run, your media should have been ALL about that, and that alone.

- There is no shortage.

- There are plenty of Aussies who want the jobs.

- The present package is obviously below industry standards.

- The Visas are being used to circumvent this problem.

In other words: Jetstar is employeeing foreigners to keep wages low whilst plenty of Aussies are now shut out.

They are the lines you should be running with, not the apologist Bulls%#t that is evident in your media and posts here.

I remain entirely suspicious that you are in bed with them on this one, your defence of it is a give away.

Well Said Speedy.

Personally I think building a house is too expensive in Aus now.
I suggest the Aus government import hundreds of thousands of cheap labour, in the same manner the middle east and asia have. This will lower wages of the building trade, electricians, cleaning, road working etc. This is what they are doing with avaition.
Why is it acceptable to import pilots in this manner, yet not other jobs.

I want to return to Aus. I have the experience for a wide bodied command, but its not worth working for the budget airlines of Aus

There is NO shortage of qualified and experienced pilots in Aus. Its simply not worth it for the Aussies to return home. So they import non Aussies.
IF Salaries and work conditions were acceptable there would be hundreds of experienced pilots returning to Aus. About time they paid an acceptable salary and stopped treating Airline pilots as labourers.

[BeerBaron]

Increase in Salary for latest Jetstar EBA. All amounts include retention bonus, which is in fact only paid as a lump sum at the one, three and five year anniversaries of the new EBA.

Narrow Body

Junior FO $55,407.26 formerly $71,892.66 a decrease of 22.9% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
FO initial 12 months $84,648.42 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 0.0%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year $92,344.02 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 9.2%
FO after 5th year $100,039.62 formerly $84,579.60 an increase of 18.3% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
Captain $153,906.70 formerly $140,966 an increase of 9.2%

Wide Body

Junior FO $63,163.28 formerly $77,643.93 a decrease of 18.7% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
FO initial 12 months $96,500.28 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 5.6%
FO after 12 months up to 5th year $105,272.84 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 15.2%
FO after 5th year $114,044.34 formerly $91,345.80 an increase of 24.8% (note there is almost nobody in this category)
Captain $175,454.38 formerly $152,243 an increase of 15.2%

A Junior FO is defined as a pilot who has insufficient experience to qualify for an ATPL. There are very few in this category.

There are very few FOs who have been in Jetstar longer than 5 years.

Command Upgrade

FO after 12 months up to 5th year upgrading to A320 $92,344.02 formerly $105,724.50 a decrease of 12.7%

FO after 12 months up to 5th year upgrading to A330 $105272.84 formerly $114,182.25 a decrease of 7.8%

Conclusion

Most Jetstar pilots received a pay rise between 0 and 9% (narrow body) or 5% to 15% (wide body). As there are more FOs than Captains, and more A320 pilots than A330, the overall increase in pay for the entire pilot group, including retention bonus, is probably about 7%.

(Calculated by averaging A320 increase as 5% and A330 increase as 10%, then picking the midpoint between the two and biasing slightly towards the A320 as there are more A320 pilots)

FOs under command training took a significant pay cut.

All pilots are locked into 3% CPI rises for five years. As CPI is forecast to exceed this for at least the next two years this will result in a real decrease in pay over the life of the EBA.

For more information see this thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317096

[Rostov]

Speedy,
I applauded your post. The very silence of Lawrie Cox after your post makes me very comfortable with the fact that I resigned from the AFAP even after my email of concern to the AFAP to work closer with AIPA.
It was not a hollow threat. Nothing happened, so I resigned from the AFAP and the apparent lack of action on this thread strengthens my resolve. I am now a member of AIPA.
I will see how it goes from here, at this rate I will probably end up off-shore for more money, just like nearly all of my mates..:ugh:
But thats cool, all the baby boomers will retire when the conditions reach rock bottom and 'hot potatoe' the s;;t sandwich to 'someone else'..
NOT REALLY THEIR PROBLEM IS IT, so why do we really think they are motivated to fix it?

[Gas Mask]

Pinhead by name, Pinhead by nature.

[hotnhigh]

:ugh::ugh:And those hoping VOz terms and conditions may have been bettered with supply and demand can thank the AFAP for their 'play of the day.':yuk:

[Condition lever]

Keg,

What's happening with the GOAL????
And can you convince your membership to sign off on it?
(a genuine question)

[hotnhigh]

Condition Lever,
Surely it was a great idea. No pilot was disadvantage. If every current Jetstar pilot has the ability to have a crack at command on Jetstar aircraft before any qantas pilot, every Qlink has a crack at command on Qlink aircraft before any jetstar/qantas pilot and they all have the ability to move to mainline if they desire how can that be bad. Also the cap on type changes during your career would have provided QF with large savings.
The whole concept would have got up in a landslide from a mainline perspective.

[Muff Hunter]

Lawrie,

Please do not insult our intelligence, and yes I can read.

You know as well as I do that the only reason the EBA got up was they allowed the AWA's guys to vote....utterly disgraceful..

Your AFAP has sat back and done nothing for too long and i'm afraid you have made your bed.

Believe me Lawrie and your fellow AFAP cronies, nobody I fly with has any confidence in your organization and i'd hazard a guess and say your "UNION" may only last a while longer unless you get off your asses and do what you are paid for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[600ft-lb]

at least you lot can rest in the knowledge that the yarpies are trying to escape a country that is one of the most dangerous in the world, the poms want a place to retire where it doesnt rain and need a passport or at least permanent residency for that. they are using jetstar as a stepping stone, nothing more, can you blame them ?

both of these nationalities could easily immigrate to australia under the skilled visa program as almost all aviation professions are listed under the skills shortage, but why fork out for it yourself when jetstar, read: qantas, are willing to do it for you.

dont blame the players, blame the game jetstar run

[Transition Layer]

Pin Head,

can you see the management at Jet* putting a pilot from a light twin (with truthfully, the wrong type of experience in the way of worldwide op's) into the right hand seat of a new 787 when it arrives? there is no shortage of people looking for the first step on the ladder but when it comes to the crunch you need people with experinece up there. heard of a crew in the uk with a 2000hr Captain and a 200hr FO, in hours that is sweet FA. PS by the way, I did it the hard way as well self funded, instructor, light twin, airliner route.

The experience to crew aircraft at Jetstar, both Left and Right seat, comes from within the Qantas Group (JQ, Mainline, Qantaslink). As an example, a Qantas 767 F/O with 10 years + experience in both domestic and international long haul ops, could easily slide into the LHS of a A330. S/Os could then take up F/O positions at either airline and then the "light twin" pilot you talk of can do his apprenticeship as an S/O. No better place to learn the ins and outs of airline ops, and get some exposure to operating Internationally at the same time.

However, JQ/QF management will do everything it can to prevent this from happening as it will inevitably cause upward pressure on Jetstar wages to bring them in line with those at Mainline. Only when wages are on par (i.e. a JQ A330 pilot earns the same as a QF A330 pilot, etc) can any sort of GOAL work.

By the way, and I stand to be corrected, any Aussie pilot working in Europe or the UK would require residency or an EU passport. They aren't there because the airlines concerned needed cheap labour.

TL

[MAX]

can't see what the problem is. loads of aussies in europe taking jobs of the locals there.

If you have a European passport, then you are a local. It doesnt matter what accent you have.... Pinhead.

MAX:cool:

[SOPS]

Ahh!!!..post number 48 is interesting.."if you were not ex AN (an that would be post 89 AN) you cant get anywhere"

How many are sitting overseas that would like to come back and cant, because they are "blocked" by JetStar.

Is Laurie doing anything about this, or just letting 457 holders flood through the door?

Interesting times.....

[FlareArmed2]

So if I read the EBA numbers right, FOs got close to zero pay rise and A330 CNs got the most payrise.

Therefore making Command A330 attractive to direct entry from overseas, and leaving the FOs to rot on the vine as they are bypassed.

So how do they feel about it?

[Big Unit]

Got this today. Another example of Dixon inspiring his troops....

QANTAS STATEMENT ON PILOT RECRUITMENT
SYDNEY, 26 May 2008: Qantas confirmed today that Jetstar was supplementing its extensive domestic recruitment for pilots by using 457 visas to recruit some pilots from overseas.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said that Jetstar had recruited 200 pilots in Australia since January 2007 and, on average, recruited 15 pilots per month.

“In addition, Qantas separately has recruited 170 new pilots this financial year and more than 300 existing Qantas pilots have received upgrade training in the same period.”

Mr Dixon said Qantas and Jetstar were separate airlines with their own individual pilot and training requirements.

“Nearly all the Qantas Group of pilots are recruited in Australia, despite piloting being very much a global profession.

“Indeed, many Australian pilots choose to fly with overseas airlines throughout their careers.”

Mr Dixon said the Group spent millions of dollars each year recruiting and training pilots.

“We also have an extensive cadet program, which we continue to expand. Nobody does more to grow the pool of skilled pilots in this country than we do.”

[shafted driver]

Now I have been following this topic for a long time being an Australian Pilot who has had an application with Jetstar for a long time /very well experienced ( lotza jet time and the rest) and meet all minimums reqd and alas no invitation for interview !!
OK thats their choice give it to another they consider more suitable ..No worries > as its their train set / I have no problem with that..

BUT Give that job to a NON AUSTRALIAN bought in on a 457 Visa that requires that NO SUITABLE Australian applicants exist to fill the position ??? Well thats just Illegal as the 457 requires >>>> NO Suitable Applicants .

So Rather than bleed and bitch on this forum there is an Australian Ombudsman that will inviestigate why an Australian Government Agency has isssued these Visa's when the conditions have not been satisfied..
If you like me no longer buy the rhetoric that recruitment is on hold due 787 delays and feel like making an offical complaint as I have .. see below for the LINK..
http://www.comb.gov.au/

Foreigners in my city doing a job I am able to do and may even be more experienced to do than them ??
No we have the legal right to challenge this one... / more complaints the better

[sprocket check]

For those that missed it:



Now I know a few worthy candidates for a seat at j*. What a load of crock. This j* guy has the attitude of a total cock. It seems like a perfect plan to keep the workforce under control.

[Jed Clampett]

As a long time aviator in this country and holding one of the top jobs anyone can aspire to in Australia I just despair at the way "my" company is carrying out its industrial relations and pilot recruitment. Unfortunately nothing will happen because everyone will bitch and moan on pprune and qrewroom and history shows no one, I repeat no one, will have the balls to lead a concerted push, within the "protected" industrial arena to try and stop it. Qrewroom/AIPA is full of arrogant dickheads fighting amongst themselves and previous administrations trying to big note themselves because their ego is so big they can't let it go. Everyone huffs and puffs on pprune but does anyone do anything other than send an email to their local member who, if they are Labour, have shown their true colours after only 6 months. Has anyone organised the numbers for a special AIPA AGM to get this sorted? No. Has anyone approached the AFAP? No. For all you young guys who see this as a direct assault against your career paths get off your collective asses and work hard to correct it. It doesn't affect me because I am a senior Captain in mainline but I will support you all the way because I am sick and tired of Dixon and Co destroying this Company that I have grown to love,the careers of those who built it and those who will continue the tradition.

[Pin Head]

Suitable - that is the key word.

Does a bush pilot with 1000hrs become more suitable than a pilot with 10000plus hours, worldwide operations, heavy airplane experience.

Can't see the legal battle working really. Sorry

[TurbTool]

So if I read the EBA numbers right, FOs got close to zero pay rise and A330 CNs got the most payrise.

I don't think you read it right. All existing FO's get minimum of just over 9% increase plus extra days off and other benefits. FO's with 3 years plus of service also get access to a company performance bonus scheme, while Fo's with 5 years of service pick up an additional 5% of Captain pay. 9% plus is is nowhere near next to nothing. Yes, Widebody captains got a little more but it really was just a short term bringing forward of an agreed percentage increase plus a company performance bonus ( no guarantee).

But just like most of the crap I have read on the previous pages of this topic, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I couldn't be bothered with the names but look at the posters moaning that they have the experience for a direct entry command, obviously happy to jump over others already there, if only the money was better or whatever. Are they concerned for existing Jetstar FO's, No, just want the money improved so that they can have that command instead of a 457 potential applicant on the existing T&Cs.

Or the bloke that reckons ten year QF FO's are ready for Jetstar A330 commands ahead of existing qualified and experienced Jetstar A320 Captains.

I think there are a whole lot of self interested hippocrites out there in pprune land, who espouse one theory but for self interest believe in another.

All willing to slag off at Jetstar, Jetstar pilots and the AFAP because they can't have their own way. A pretty sad state of affairs.

[Pundit]

Well said Jed

Laurie wake up and start doing something positive.

Given there is such a shortage, and given the money being offered in the Gulf, why are these South African's available to come to such low paid jobs? Could there be a standards issue about to hit?

[WynSock]

Got around 8000 hrs, No jet time but mostly shiploads of Dash time, offered J* interview. Decided to give them a miss after reviewing the pay-for-endo, the crap renumeration and the anecdotal evidence from friends inside getting flogged, having to pay for everything etc. Perhaps we should enlighten the general public on these realities.

One bloke said "just like a large disorganised GA operator really - with jets"
If you ask me, most people may accept Jet* conditions just to get their foot in the door - with future plans not involving budget carriers at all. No wonder they are having trouble recruiting experienced aussies. What have they got to offer? The 457 visa is unbelievable and unwarranted in this case.

[shafted driver]

Hey PinHead.... did you read my post " lotsa Jet time "

[VH-JJW]

After the 89' pilots dispute Australian pilots found jobs in all 4 corners of the globe.

Today, Australian pilots continue to work around the globe.

I cannot believe that we as a group are so xenophobic as to to expect the rest of the world to accept us whilst simultaneously locking them out.

Shame, shame shame.

[VH-JJW]

Keg - the reason that you cannot vote on the SH award is because in your case it is not the relevant industrial instrument and therefore you are not directly affected by it. But you already knew that, just that you thought Laurie didn't.:=

By contrast the AWA pilots in Jetstar were directly affected by the EBA result, hence their correct inclusion in the final vote. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Command must be going well eh.......

[Wizofoz]

VH-JJW,

As one of those pilots working in a far flung corner of the globe, I can assure you I would be out of here in a heartbeat if my current country of abode could supply sufficient home grown pilots. That is the situation ANYWHERE Australians are working as ex-pat pilots. It is NOT the case in Australia.

There would be a flood of highly qualified, experienced pilots coming back to Aus if J* and was offering anything close to a competitive package.

457 Visas are supposed to be a last resort when sufficient numbers of qualified Aussies don't EXIST, not for when a company simply won't offer any thing like enough money!!

[Transition Layer]

Make sure you don't watch this straight after eating, the sight of the little gnome talking out of his arse is enough to make you sick!!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/05/26/2256191.htm

[VH-JJW]

Wiz, my point is not the adequacy or otherwise of the JQ Terms and Conditions. My point is the fact that you CAN work in other countries.

If all nations adopted a similar approach to that suggested here then you and most Australian pilots working overseas would simply be UNEMPLOYED.

This is not a simple argument, there are numerous issues here including:

DEC's in Jetstar
Availability of suitably qualified local pilots
Jetstar Terms and Conditions, and
Government Decisions to grant s457 visas.

I am speaking in relation to only the last point.

[Cruis'in FL410]

Lawrie,

After pursuing a career and starting out with 150-200 hours in the early turbulent 90's, I've seen my fair share while embarking on my career dream.

Voting down the latest EBA was personally hard thought and was happy with the initial outcome when voted down, but lost for words when my union signed off on practically the same EBA, and somehow enabling current non-EBA pilots to vote as part of company "buy-out" to get it over the line, I lost my faith in the collective...

I feel for the current F/O generation within our struggling company. Really good guys, and now battling to keep their right to seniority being circumvented by these 457 visa's, and direct entry captains, (yes many exceed the OM1 command requirements, as well as those with less than OM1 req's, but exceed company requirements not met by most direct entry captains). The flight deck chatter, (on the whole), used to be so positive and easy going, is now being consistently eroded by talk of direct entry commands, by-pass of seniority, and I wonder what I will be chatting about tomorrow when our own union had pretty much endorsed further direct entry fella's from SA.

"They'll be direct-entry captains with type-rated experience and they'll be able to go into vacancies and provide training opportunities.....

Need I add how many currently employed experienced captains we presently have, that could fill any training role if a company FSO requesting EOI for training vacancies, was produced tomorrow would be easily filled.... disgraceful and disappointing

[fedup1]

The little Irishman said it himself. “to avoid a potential pilot shortage.” There is no pilot shortage at the moment.

“We have to be in a position to, to compete in a global market, and recruit pilots from ahhh, from a variety of different sources.”

Just after skybus closed its doors in the US An Australian airline advertised in the US for rated Airbus crews. Skybus were the lowest paid Airbus pilots I have ever heard of.

I could go to china and make $14,000 per month as an A320 Capt and pay no tax, and have housing, medical uniforms, meals and transport included.
There are similar contracts all around the world.

I want to echo the statement made by the AIPA rep, Virgin have trained enough Australia crews to sustain their growth.
But they also pay $100k for a 73 FO. :D

VH-JJW
Most of the Airlines that hire foreigners run cadet programs. Not like the pathetic excuses of cadetships offered here but real cadetships, where once you are selected they pay for all costs associated with training. When airlines in Australia start paying for the training for hundreds of cadets per year, such as Singapore Airlines China Southern Airlines and Cathay and there is still not enough pilots, then bring in the expats like in those countries. In fact those airlines are providing the experience for Australian instructors training their cadets so not only are they supporting the citizens of their home countries they are also supporting our country. In those cases working as an expat is essential. Imaging Emirates without expats. Australia is totally different, with a huge supply of GA pilots and just as many airline pilots working overseas as locally due to past and present factors. We cant change the past and bring pilots back but we can change the future.

My message to you Mr Joice
OFFER A SALARY COMPETITIVE IN THE GLOBAL MARKET AND YOU WILL HAVE ENOUGH PILOTS FOR YOU PROJECTED GROWTH AND MORE! IF NOT, GO BACK TO IRELAND, AND TAKE YOUR WORSE THAN THIRD WORLD INSULTING SALARIES AND LIES WITH YOU!

[fedup1]

on a different note,

wouldnt it be interesting to compare the state of pilots terms and conditions in relation to take home pay over the past 20 years to the pay of managment.

Im sure that the managers take home pay has gone up four fold plus while the pilots pay has gone up in single figures over the same period, if at all.

I dont have the exact numbers but would be interesting to hear from those that do.

[Wizofoz]

My point is the fact that you CAN work in other countries.



JJW,

I CAN work in other countries who CAN'T supply enough of their own pilots. I CAN'T work in countries that CAN.

I CAN'T work in the US, Europe or much of Asia unless I hold citizenship there, because no sovereign country allows foreign labour to usurp their citizens if they can supply sufficient people themselves, the current glaring exception being Australia!!

[armslides&crossdress]

VH _JJW suggests we expats are hypocrites basically..
Not so .. most of us are working in the countries no one wants to live and even if we did wish to set down roots - this is not possible as the right to reside as a resident only extends to the contract length..
Not so with the imports on the 457 in Aussie, they get to apply for permanent resident / then full citizenship afetr time in a highly desirable country..

Now I would like to go and work in many parts of europe , however all the EU countries will not allow this -- why - to protect those within the union.. Or how about the States ( no green card = no go)

So get a little educated please on where we (aussie)expats who wish to come home are a little confused as to this 457 Visa thinkng, Yes amoungst us we are are international heavy skippers and f/o's with much to offer and aussie to boot, and even happy with the $$ on offer as want to get home..

[Mr. Hat]

But they also pay $100k for a 73 FO

Well said.

...the pilots pay has gone up in single figures over the same period, if at all.


Backwards actually. Set only to get worse.

If you want to see the future look at what a pilot makes in the US.

[Sonny Hammond]

Some of the countries expats work in would like nothing more to be rid of their expat pilots (workers in general).
To them we are a necessary evil.

On the contrary, Australia seemingly would prefer to displace its own, replace them with 'cheaper' immigrants, all just to chase a short term profit forecast.

It is quite pathetic really.

[redsnail]

UK cadet schemes are very much sponsorship schemes. (ie, you pay one way or the other)

There are also deals where you can "buy" your right seat for 100 or 150 hours.
Nice. :yuk:

This is just to clarify what happens in the UK.

Just looking at the money on offer, it's not the best.

[Boeing797]

Everyone is missing the point here. 457 visas are temporary and have a max validity of four years. They can NOT lead to permanent residency or Aussie citizenship. These foreigners are just a stop-gap and will have to leave Oz in four years time.

[breakfastburrito]

Boeing797, that is incorrect. Gillard has stated that she hopes s457 holders stay and take up residency, & ultimately citizenship.

[phantom menace]

History lesson- Early 90's the UK was full of Aussie's taking jobs from UK pilots. Lucky Pprune wasn't going then eh !. The old analogy don't P**s in my back yard, P**s next door.:ok:

[breakfastburrito]

Tell us phantom, what passport or residency did these "Aussies" carry? Ah yes British or right-of-abode.

[Keg]

Command must be going well eh.......

So far. Quite enjoyable actually. It's nice to have something to distract me from all this 457 visa crap. :E

[maggotdriver]

I feel for the current F/O generation within our struggling company. Really good guys, and now battling to keep their right to seniority being circumvented by these 457 visa's, and direct entry captains, (yes many exceed the OM1 command requirements, as well as those with less than OM1 req's, but exceed company requirements not met by most direct entry captains). The flight deck chatter, (on the whole), used to be so positive and easy going, is now being consistently eroded by talk of direct entry commands, by-pass of seniority, and I wonder what I will be chatting about tomorrow when our own union had pretty much endorsed further direct entry fella's from SA.
Now that's irony! Sort of reminds me of the woman who wonders why her husband cheated on her when she herself used to be the lover?
We tried to tell you guys what the company would do but unfortunately you've now found out for yourselves, however, this post is not to say we told you so, in fact it is positive. Our guys too fell for the same thing, it is difficult to suspect one's boss as a man of complete disregard of morals until you realise that is exactly and expressly what the market requires of him - whilst we allow it!
Lawrie and Ian, you now have a condition you have been waiting for! Both pilot bodies are aggrieved within one organisation and being Australian I'm sure that we would much rather stand together and unite to face an enemy than to continue divided. Both of your jobs (in particular both of Ian's) are now at threat!
Enough pontificating - FIX IT!
You have support from both sides!

[maggotdriver]

Now I have been following this topic for a long time being an Australian Pilot who has had an application with Jetstar for a long time /very well experienced ( lotza jet time and the rest) and meet all minimums reqd and alas no invitation for interview !!
OK thats their choice give it to another they consider more suitable ..No worries > as its their train set / I have no problem with that..

BUT Give that job to a NON AUSTRALIAN bought in on a 457 Visa that requires that NO SUITABLE Australian applicants exist to fill the position ??? Well thats just Illegal as the 457 requires >>>> NO Suitable Applicants .

So Rather than bleed and bitch on this forum there is an Australian Ombudsman that will inviestigate why an Australian Government Agency has isssued these Visa's when the conditions have not been satisfied..
If you like me no longer buy the rhetoric that recruitment is on hold due 787 delays and feel like making an offical complaint as I have .. see below for the LINK..
http://www.comb.gov.au/

Foreigners in my city doing a job I am able to do and may even be more experienced to do than them ??
No we have the legal right to challenge this one... / more complaints the better

Great idea! Already done mine and so should every FO on the 330/320 for J* or mainline. Letters to Members go into the bin. Letters to the ombudsman get followed up on.

[Lodown]

Jetstar has the intention of picking up pilots wherever they can. Frankly, if I was an employee, I'd be taking the same attitude with employers. And to preempt anyone suggesting that some pilots have commitments, kids in school, parents and in-laws nearby, wives in careers, etc., I fully agree. Just like any other job. If this "pilot shortage" gets worse, as it is forecast to do assuming oil prices don't stifle growth, then Jetstar's investment in employee stability will likely turn around and bite them on the arrse.

[Captain Sherm]

Just wondering....and that's all so no venomous replies please....

1. Are there any pilots left in QF who joined either Australian or Ansett in 1989? How many?

2. Other than those in 1. if there are any, how many AIPA members weren't born in Australia?

3. How many in 2., came to Australia with any form of flying licence?

4. How many AIPA members have taken leave of absence to fly with any o's or domestic carrier?

5. How many MOU pilots has the QF Chief Pilot let leave QF to go over to JQ in the last 6 months?


If anyone has the facts, love to hear them.

Thanks

[Chimbu chuckles]

So all the angst aside how many pilots have J* actually employed on 457 visas and is the pilot scene different now to last year when they applied for said visas?

My information is that the situation has changed dramatically post EBA 4 and they now have what they didn't have before...experienced expat ozzies applying to come home in sufficient numbers to obviate the need for 457 visas.

So have they actually hired 1, 5, 10, 75?

Or is this a storm in a tea cup?

['holic]

Fair enough question, Chimbu. Don't know the answer but can answer your question with another question.

How many 457 visas need to be issued before this ceases to be a 'storm in a teacup' and becomes a legitimate concern?

1, 5, 10, 75?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Any pilot hired of whatever background, will be hired on EBA 4 so now that they have the required Ozzie applicants, and believe me they do, as long as those applicants accept offers of employment, and believe me they will given the plummeting US$, there is no advantage in hiring via 457 visa.

Now if they were offering employment to 457 applicants on lesser T&Cs than EBA 4 you'd have an argument...but they are not.

Storm in a teacup.

[Wiley]

Maybe Jet* should re-write their ads and state the actual situation with some honesty: "Australian residency/citizenship for sale. Going cheap: grossly sub-standard wages and conditions (only) for the 3(?) years it will take to to qualify for your Aussie passport - and then you're free to join the native born Australian pilots overseas where you can earn a halfway decent living.

Bonus: along with the obligatory six free steak knives, your family, both immediate and extended, get an Aussie passport too!!"

Three years from now, they can import another lot of cheap labour under similar conditions when this lot collect their passports - and walk. (Note to Patrick's management: maybe you should try this with the wharfies as well?)

If the senior people in Government aren't too thick to see through this full of holes scam Jet* management are trying to foist upon them and the Australian public, they're in on it, as they were the last time they imported foreign pilots in large numbers to destroy the wages and conditions of local pilots. It's the same Party in power as was in power then, and I would imagine that many of the ministers and senior staffers now in Canberra were junior staffers who were actively involved in the implemention the Labor Governmen't "destroy Australian Aviation" (for that's what it did) policy in the year that started the whole sorry mess Australian Aviation has become.

Or maybe they're got the Silver Bodgie is as a specialist consultant?

[obie2]

Hey!...I wouldn't be too concerned about this if I were you!

Laurie at the AFAP will sort this all out...

you watch, she'll be right! :ok:

[ACMS]

yeah :D

That's what Laurie and the gang said to us in '89

She'll be right.


Looks like they have the same legal advisors!!:D

[xjt]

For the first time in my life I am ashamed to be an aussie. Working overseas has been a nightmare in many cases. There are so many of us trying to come "HOME", it is unbeliveable how Australia has become even worse than the U.S. BUt I guess the word "SCAB" has many meanings here, and will too very soon down Under.

Let the games begin........

[Rabbitwear]

You are all missing the point. Jetstar needs to crew their aircraft not enough applicants are trying to go there , most Aussie expats who apply will get a job nobody is missing out. I think the Jetstar boys are trying to get leverage off this for a pay rise . no chance . Like the place or go overseas and work . Many professional go overseas for more money, some will take less to stay home accept it everyone has options, a lot of Australians live on 1/2 of what an f/o makes so dont bother screaming in public.

[breakfastburrito]

If you are really in Alaska, I can forgive your ignorance. Just in case you are, the j* pilots have signed a 5 year deal have no legal mechanism to seek higher wages until 2013. Any illegal industrial action would result in massive fines for those involved.
So no, this in not about a wage increase.

[ozbiggles]

Its all about keeping costs down, NOTHING to do with a pilots shortage.
If Cheapstar had good T and C they would have no problem getting Australian pilots.
And I wouldn't expect any help from the new government at all.
The Visa deal has been sold to them as a way of keeping LOW wages. I have no doubt the PR teams of both government and Cheapstar have already written the spin for it as shown by the remarks that one of the reasons for this is to help the regionals keep their pilots!?
And we all know how this government likes people who EARN over 100K....and their past in dealing with pilots.
It would be a great thing for AIPA and AFAP to work together on to stop this and unite.....now I really am dreaming.

[genex]

And your starting point for dreaming that AIPA and the AFAP might unite is to bucket Jetstar pilots by referring to their employer as "Cheapstar"?. Where did you study diplomacy? You know how upset some folks get at the use of terms like "Sky Gods"......how about some inter-pilot group CRM techniques?

[TCAS Shennanigans]

Over the past 6 months there has been a steady influx of DEC's hired under the pretense that they will be converted into training and checking or in jetstars case - failing and checking - types.

MW, the individual currently steering the SS jetstar towrds the rocks instigated this action to make up for the overall lack of suitable trainers that the company could draw on. Now, suprise, suprise this hasn't happened.

These DEC's (many returning from overseas) have merely become normal line drivers, comfortably occupying command positions in various bases whilst those within who were granted command slots some six months ago still wait any sign of commencement of training.

The visa issue is important and needs to be addressed, however so does the current situation of those who have been given command slots and those FO's who are elligible to bid for command slots being surpassed by these direct entry individuals.

Jetstar seniority is non existant, Ansett seniority unfortunetately isn't and this is not just another case of "not that old chestnut again".

We as a pilot group were sold out by the soon to be ousted JPA and even more so by the AFAP. Whilst we all understand the need to hire qualified individuals to ensure progression and success, where does screwing over your existing and loyal employee's come into it?

Unfortuneately many of the senior guys in the company still think they are in GA and as such thought the EBA was a good thing.

Unfortuneately as a group there is very little unity and the ensuing EBA debarcle revealed just how many self serving "screw you, im alright Jack" types there are within.

Unfortuneately as a group we have let things to come this and there is very little we can do about it.

This is not an attack against the DEC's, they had an opportunity to come back and why not?

No, this is a consequence of the spineless JPA's underhanded sell out of those who supported it, the general appathy current jetstar management has toward its pilot group and the outstanding lack of anything from that toothless tiger the AFAP who again just let it all roll on.

Time to grab a coffee, a deck chair and wait for the terse replies.......

[desmotronic]

Better yet unite and represent all pilots including GA. Show some leadership and take control of the industry. Say no to 457's, MPL's, dodgy operators, below award wages, 200 hour FO's, inadequate ATC, falling real wages, poor quality instructors and the continuing decline in aviation standards.

Real leadership looks at the big picture not just whats in it for me!

See the medicos and the legal fraternity to see how they control the standards and the supply of labour. I see GP's are putting their hands up for 19% pay rise.

[Going Boeing]

Doctors, like pilots, have to outlay a very significant amount of money to gain their qualifications so there has to be adequate remuneration, otherwise, school graduates will not follow into the profession - a pay rise is obviously necessary for them.

The same applies for pilots - Jetstar management's continuing efforts to pay inadequate remuneration will continue the exodus of trained pilots overseas and fewer young people will outlay the money necessary to gain the qualifications. They are simply making the problem worse but they are yet to realise it.

TCAS - no terse replies from me - I think you summed it up well.

[boardpig]

I think you guys have to begin to stand up for yourselves here. As has been proven, don't expect any help from your union, it aint coming. An airline needs pilots to operate, there are more of you than there are of them.
Idealistic I know, but what is the alternative? Bend over and take it?:*

[Mstr Caution]

It's already a done deal, but I think the approval number will be closer to 200 visas.:8

[Mstr Caution]

The visa issue is important and needs to be addressed, however so does the current situation of those who have been given command slots and those FO's who are elligible to bid for command slots being surpassed by these direct entry individuals.

TCAS - Starting to feel like a mainline pilot are we?

[Jetsbest]

1. for 457 visas...
How can you seriously assert that promotions for eligible (ie suitably qualified) Jetstar pilots are NOT affected by the import of 75 foreign direct captains? Any pilot who's not yet a captain will have their promotional opportunity deferred by these 75 positions. Rapid expansion is no consolation to that unavoidable fact!

and

2. for foreign pilots coming to Oz just because aussies went 'over there' in the past...
How can this be the same thing? The aussies working in the US/UK/EU/mid-east have doubtless all had the appropriate accreditation (family tree/passport/spouse) to score those jobs. Similar beauracratic reciprocity has always applied in Oz; look how many ex-US/NZ/UK pilots are QF employees. In other cases certain countries had virtually zero pilots and needed pilots from everywhere to grow (eg EK). The difference now with 457 visas is that spin is influencing a government to allow the import of non-resident, non-national pilots under the guise of a shortage of suitable local talent; and this from a company which pays less, demands payment for endorsements, and has generally lowered the bar on conditions. I understand Jetstar management's predicament completely; but it is of their own making.

The QF group, from Jetstar domestic & international to mainline, has hundreds of very experienced F/Os with thousands of hours command-endorsed in commercial jets who've been plying the world's airways for over ten years. In most other world-class airlines (eg Cathay) they would ALL be captains with those levels of experience and would not be overlooked for promotion in the fashion of this 457 spin!

This in not about pilot shortages or lack of suitable Australian candidates. It is about a whole lot perception management to skew the labour costs once again. :hmm:

[Keg]

And your starting point for dreaming that AIPA and the AFAP might unite is to bucket Jetstar pilots by referring to their employer as "Cheapstar"?.

Seriously genex. I refer to QF as Quaintarse occasionally. Referring to J* as Cheapstar, Jokestar, etc has zero to do with the pilots flying for them. I don't get riled up when people tell me about QF's crappy service, neither should you when people refer to J* by one of the names that refer to their level of service.

Besides, do they or do they not market themselves as cheaper than the rest?

Seriously you need to not be so precious about it all. (And people reckon that I'M sensitive when it comes to my airline/association!) :eek: :ok:

[airtags]

Seems that it really doesn't matter whether your driving, in the cabin or on the ground - no matter what logo is on the tail, at the moment the things that oppose and divide us are far outweighed by what we have in common.

With most/all airline growth strategies wholly dependant on short term gratification and justification (notably by grasping more foreskin than foresight,) the issues faced by anyone working in RPT are (almost) universal.

The really scary part now is that like no other time before, it's the regulatory/legislative environments (& even the regulators) that are seen as the precursor targets.

This philosophy is simple, and has been well demonstrated - change the regulatory environment to prescribe or favour the airline's desired cost reduction model and even the most cohesive, unionised workforces are marginalised before the work day begins.

AT

[Mr. Hat]

What an amazingly animated response from the unions on the telly about this whole situation.....:zzz::hmm:

Gee at least today tonight could have done a segment.

[Dixons Cider]

According to this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328687) thread, JQ/QF are starting to reduce capacity and dump some airframes/routes.

Surely that would add weight to the argument that the 457 visa holders are not a neccesity?

[obie2]

I notice that Lawrie Cox has gone to water again with the going getting tough!

He did the same thing back in 89' when the going got tough, went to water. And boy, did he ever! It was embarrassing to watch.

How he's had the nerve to continue in his position with the AFAP since 89' has always intrigued me.

Still, when you been emasculated as he was during the 89' dispute I guess there's nowhere to go other than to become a company stooge!

He's certainly doing that job well at the moment, he's let the pilots down before and he's doing it again!

[UNOME]

I hear Gordon and Slater are set to serve AJ with a big wad of legal headaches.

Apparently a group of highly qualified Airbus drivers who were considered to be in "the wrong BBQ set" have taken exception to the imports, when they are more than qualified and willing to work for JQ.

Points to be raised through the court application;

Why almost all ex Ansett management/ check pilots have not been through the interview process?
How then are they qualified to reject equally and/ or better qualified Australian candidates?
Why are ex-AN less qualified pilots "from the correct BBQ set" still being recruited as DEC without going through the interview process? [The latest placed directly into S/E QLD base waiting for his 787 checkie postion...and the JQ guys don't even offer a whimper.]:confused:Apparently the subpoena includes the interview results of all ex-AN management/ check pilots to date :eek:

Sounds like some "creative paperwork" will be surfacing...:suspect:

[max autobrakes]

If that's the case,
I can't wait for the Qantas Sale Act case to start too! :ok:
Sounds like a migraine might be on the cards.:\

[slamer.]

Jetstar plugs gaps with foreign pilots

5:00AM Wednesday May 28, 2008


Qantas has confirmed reports that its cut-price offshoot Jetstar is employing foreign pilots to supplement its Australian flight crew.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said Jetstar was recruiting pilots at a rate of 15 a month, with 200 employed in Australia since January 2007.
Most of these were domestically trained, while "some pilots from overseas" would be employed under temporary 457 work visas.
News Ltd put the figure at 75 foreign pilots, while adding that Jetstar had also recently hired 20 foreign cabin crew, and said it had Government approval to hire up to 60 more.
Dixon said Qantas had separately recruited 170 pilots this financial year.
- AAP

[Private Part]

....and in the afternoon we are now told about Qantas and Jetstar reducing capacity!!! Jetstar are reducing capacity by 2 aircraft!! Additionally a recruitment freeze has been in force and many pilots have stopped earning overtime for a number of months.
In my opinion it is simply cheaper to employ qualified pilots rather than train new captains and trainers.

A side note: One of lies peddled to sell the last EBA was that a new FO could expect a command 2 years after starting!! I don't think many pilots believed it or thought it relevant but none-the-less an apparent lie! It was all about trust!

[Roost]

Remember our government is a legal entity.


2 points-

1- 457 visas are only to be issued if there are not qualified Australians to take the positions. We don’t decide what qualifies a person to command a transport category jet in our own opinion; the government has done that for us. It is defined as the holder of an ICAO ATPL. This is the regulatory requirement and therefore the definition. (Therefore the government has acted illegally because there are sufficient Australian ATPL holder around)

2- Don’t bother with the unions; take a class action against the signatory ministers of the visa’s. You have the opposition ministers and ombudsman to help. This is a matter for the high court. Don’t just email your local member, go and see them. Organise a meeting. I am meeting with my local member and I don’t fly for j*, but I do think it is a disgrace due to misinformation from the company to the government. However the government should have made greater enquiry before issuing the 457’s.

http://www.comb.gov.au/

[Dragon 1]

The Federal minister for Industrial Relations and work place, and the Federal Minister for Immigration both stated that the Jet* application for 457 visas were not supported. So it is a simple question. Has the Federal Government issued any 457 visas to South African pilots for the purpose of working for Jet*? Now I know Julia Gillard loves getting on T.V. Perhaps the media or AIPA can ask some direct questions.

Secondly, Fact. Around 15 South Africans started at Jet* around 1 month ago. Under what provisions? There is plenty of information and examples that this IS HAPPENING. If the union was serious about protecting pilots best interests, than they would do something about it!

[volare_737]

Hi all. Firstly I want to stress that I got nothing to do with all of this, just reading on this boring afternoon.
Just my two cents. I used to work for a setup flying F28’s in sunny South Africa around 2003. And gues what - some Australian Pilots came and worked for us. And the funny thing is there where lots of guys around (even within the company) that could have done the job.
But - the Australians where prepared to except worse working conditions. For example living conditions and duty times.
Funny they did not moan about expats and locals and so on. Simply they needed a job and excepted what came with it.
Just want to point that out. I don’t really worry to much about things like that , as I strongly believe everybody makes there own bed and sleeps in it.
Anyway - good luck and enjoy the flying !!!!

[dirty deeds]

Unions in this country, especially pilots unions, are only interested in on thing.
COVERAGE! They dont care about their members. They dont listen to their members. Thats why the AFAP and AIPA fight in court, spending our membership fees for coverage, instead of getting together and fighting these issues such as the 457 Visa issue, and creating EBAs that are indicitive of the current situation, PILOT SHORTAGE.

They have stopped listening to their members and will suffer the consequences. Such as new unions forming and stripping the their pilot membership, ie VIPA. Pay and conditions have been eroded by not only the individuals choice of employment, but also lack of Union leadership and a clear stand on issues. Unions are gun shy from 89, they lack passion, they lack soul, and they are outdated in their thinking. They blame the pilots for outcomes when it suits them, and take the credit when it suits them.

They could not give a rats about us, just look at our pay and conditions now compared to years gone by. Yes we as pilots are partly to blame, yet the Unions have to take some responsibility too. At the end of the day, we pay your salary too Mr Union Man. Have you taken a pay cut lately Mr Union Man? Have you had someone come and take your promotion lately on a 457 Visa lately Mr Union Man? Do you have to operate 90 hours of flying in 28 days Mr Union Man? Dont forget Mr Union Man, we pay your food bill!:=

[Lawrie Cox]

Please do not take my silence as accepting some of the rubbish posted here. I have said on many occassions i attempt to give facts rather than get into a 'slagging match'.
A note to the Mods remmber the commitment to respond to the issues not demean or slander?

Obie
Having read it again you could not be further from the truth but I suspect I am wasting my breath. I would watch out come September when Drug testing starts because you are to close to the poppie farm in Northern Tas.

Dirty Deeds
Yet again attack the union as cox or other staff/ You forget the leadership are operating pilots and they determine the direction. My conditions of employemnt are dealt with by elected pilots and yes my hours regularly exceed CAO 48 protections that you have. Do I say no to a member in trouble over the weekend or at midnight or early on Sunday morning when a Company has directed something, Short answer is no.
It is amazing even the most vocal of critics seem to find our number when they are in trouble.
The one thing I will agree is that we are wasting money and resources fighting each other but that as you would know is ego driven by those who want to control pilot bodies rather than sitting down and working out a plan for a united body. As i understand VIPA it is yet another ego driven body of pilots who want to be spokesman or employed as industrial officers rather than fly aircraft but does it really help pilots again the short answer is no.
Just remember whilst we fight each other we leave the companies alone. Which is what most want.

I hope you dont mind me saying that i do have other things to do than sit down at computer and respond postings of non members on a regular basis but occassionally it is a good distraction. Perhaps a few more of you should spend time on development of policy in a union or working on a technical committee or acting as a pilot friend in an accident/incident and find out what its is really all about being a member of a pilot union.

Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[newsensation]

To all Members
This is an urgent message to find out if you are an Airbus Captain who has applied to Jetstar or you know of a pilot who is an Airbus Captain, are an Australian citizen and has applied to Jetstar.
You maybe aware that the Company has Federal Government approval for up to 75 non Australian citizens to join Jetstar as Direct Entry Captains.
The Federation needs your help to identify any Australian pilots who have applied and hold Command on an Airbus type such as 320/330/340.
We need to know that the pilot has applied is prepared to return and work under the Jetstar Enterprise Agreement 2008.
Our position on this that we would prefer Australians filling the jobs but in the event there are none available we will continue to work with the Company to minimise the numbers of non Australian citizens needed that provide the experience base for the existing and future First officers to get their experience hours up on type to take future commands at Jetstar.
Many if not all of these will be drawn from the Regional's and General Aviation and our commitment as an organisation is to ensure that they have the maximum career opportunity available in Australia as part of the Company's rapid expansion.
If you know of any one in the above category please contact them and provide us the information that we can get to the Company and Government quickly.
If any member has question on this topic please contact me through the Melbourne office (03) 99285737 or email [email protected].
Regards,
AFAP Communications

[obie2]

Cox has said..." as I understand VIPA it is yet another ego driven body of pilots..."

Says it all really, doesn't it, coming from a supposed pilot rep?

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Just a quick question to Mr. Volare 737, are those aussies you alledged to have undermined your accomadation and conditions still in SA? I doubt it, they have filled a gap and not used up those employment slots that earned you your monikor.

I don't think people would have that much of a problem if it was to fill a 12 month gap. We here in the red land know better though, any Afrikaaners that get the gig want to stay, as they should in gods country and given current and future problems in their own country. The perception is they will keep taking those slots, not allowing for Australians to progress. This also may be seen as the thin edge of the wedge, given there is already a supply of qualified Australian applicants, whose job will be next? That's why you see the venom and people trying to point out that others had to leave to get work and we think they should be allowed back to work here first. On fair and equitable market rates too.

[777Contrail]

Go read in the ME forum what the expats think about coming back.

[TurbTool]

Cox has said..." as I understand VIPA it is yet another ego driven body of pilots..."

Says it all really, doesn't it, coming from a supposed pilot rep?

I would have to agree with "Cox" and he "is" a pilot rep, not "supposed", but he is only as significant as the support he is given from pilot members of the AFAP. If that is not you, then your opinion is "insignificant".

The Australian aviation scene is full of p***weak" "w**kers" who are not prepared to either stand up for themselves, or to back those that will.

If more pilots who believed in the future of piloting in Australia, were willing to back up, and become involved in the AFAP, (or the AIPA) for that matter, to forge a better future for Australian pilots, instead of slagging off at those who do actually put in the effort, then we would have a chance of improving our lot.

But until that happens, we are doomed to the pathetic and unjustified denigration of good charactar, displayed by this ignorant poster.

[IcePack]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/qantas-slammed-over-jetstar-charade/2008/05/26/1211653885968.html

It would seem that not all is well Down Under

[Pin Head]

QUOTE :While Mr Somerville did not directly say that the strategy would compromise passenger safety, he said he would "bet that the pilots brought in from the UK are not from British Airways, put it that way". I don't know what the pilots from overseas are like


What a stupid comment!!!!! Is he saying that unless you work for BA you are not a safe and compentent pilot. Absoulte disgrace

Again, suitability of people - do jet star really want a 1000hr bush pilot in front of their flying plastic aircraft when it finally arrives

[Sal-e]

It reaks of sentiments from a similar event not too long ago.

[Dogma]

Aussie and Kiwi Pilots have done exceptionally well and contributed much to UK Aviation, why would the same not happen in Aus with well chosen, highly competent aviation professionals from a broad?

It this a case of Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi? no one else is good enough?

[Capt Kremin]

What Peter Somerville is alluding to is the fact that few if any of the pilots applying from outside Australia would have their standards/employment records easily verified.
If these Jetstar positions were filled by QF mainline pilots under the MOU, then Jetstar would know exactly what they were getting.
Qantas went through the DEC route many years ago and that was the problem they faced then. Some of the DEC's in fact never got a command because their standards were far below how they had represented themselves.

[phantom menace]

I find that hard to believe, If you want to find out about a DEC's credentials you can pick up a phone and find out, in no time at all. I hear KAL have been caught out by not running proper background checks and therefore ended up in that situation, but they're desperate.

[Keg]

ussie and Kiwi Pilots have done exceptionally well and contributed much to UK Aviation...

Only those with right of abode by way of birth or marriage. I can not get a flying job in the UK or the EU.

[Capt Kremin]

If Jetstar wishes to employ a mainline pilot, they would have full access to their employment history including Simulator scores and application testing. Tryng finding that sort of information on some bodgy pom, who really should have a job in today's climate, bungs in an application on spec.

[KRUSTY 34]

Just one big can of worms isn't it Capt...

These clowns could save themselves and everyone else mountains of grief by simply facing the reality!

[Maisk Rotum]

"The Federation needs your help to identify any Australian pilots who have applied and hold Command on an Airbus type such as 320/330/340.
We need to know that the pilot has applied is prepared to return and work under the Jetstar Enterprise Agreement 2008."

Isn't this precisely the point some are trying to make here; that there are probably very few or no Australian pilots overseas that are 320/330/340 rated and prepared to come and work for the present remuneration. The Federation, confirming this, is only furthering the cause for 457 visas.

On the other hand there are probably scores of potential applicants that would command a 320 for AUD220K. This is why I and many others have left for better paid jobs.

With the cost of oil where it is now the percentage of operating costs attributed to pilots wages has fallen dramatically. Paying real world salaries would only add a few dollars to each ticket and ease for the forseeable future the supposed pilot shortage. That shortage, if it is real, starts at the flying schools and GA level. If your average school leaver sees a real prosect of a career in aviation, because of competetive salaries, versus one in IT, advertising, law, medicine etc then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I suspect however that the labour government would go to extrordinary lengths to see that pilots didn't get significant pay rises as it would go against their manifesto. Thus the 457s could be a done deal.

[Teal]

457 visas are temporary and have a max validity of four years.Bulltish. They can be extended and extended and extended. I personally know an expat person who has been on a 457 now for 12 years!

[Wiley]

I suspect however that the labour government would go to extrordinary lengths to see that pilots didn't get significant pay rises as it would go against their manifesto.Hmmmm, you mean very much like another labor government did back in that year we dare not mention here?

The more thngs change, the more they stay the same. But isn't it curious how it always seem to be the Party that supposedly stands for "the worker" and workers' rights that seems to be 100% behind the big Corporations when they are screwing the working conditions of Australians by bringing in cheap foreign labour under one guise or another?

[Much Ado]

Any more personal attacks on Laurie Cox, or any other person, will result in the poster being banned.

Do I make myself fairly clear?

[Dogma]

Much as I thought... the average Aussie is parochial and pretty xenophobic, you could never see the benefit of employing X amount of foreign talent to help create a more prosperous and vibrant industry for Australia.

Its your loss, thankfully most European Pilots don't want to work in such an environment...good luck with the Garuda, One Time Pilots your companies will employ. :ok:

[amos2]

So, what do we think?...

should Dogmas post be removed also?...

coz it might offend our sensibilities? :=

[SOPS]

Why do I get the horrible, horrible feeling I have seen this all once before?:(

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

The sad point here is that this was always going to happen. Unfortunately Aussie pilots often lack the testeclae to say NO and stand up for what is right. Unfortunately, this has been a reoccurring theme since year dot. The YES voters and the UNION need to think about where they stand now. Getting that all important bonus this year? I don't think so!!!

DM

[Pin Head]

Much Ado - time to close this post please. it is dragging on and on:\

[Muff Hunter]

Much Ado,

Personal attacks on the AFAP and LC are warranted, what have they done for the industry over the 20 years....nothing!!!!

This is one of the only places where we can togther hopefully put pressure on these groups to start doing what they are getting PAID for......

Also it a good release of fraustration for some people...

Anyway something to think about....

Also, i hate to see you going the way of Tinbindilla, removing posts if you disagree with them...after all we live in AUS (freedom of speech welcomed)

[bushy]

First
If you are a paying member of AFAP you have the right to attempt to influence it. Lawrie MUSt listen to the members. They pay him.
Lawrie does NOT have the right to spend members' money on the wishes of non members.
Second
"The freedom of the press furnishes that check upon government which no constitution has ever been able to provide"--Chicago Tribune.
I believe the freedom of discusssion is just as imortant. Wherever we find people unable to to speak as they want we have serious problems.
Too much censorship will reduce the credibility of Prune.
But surely we can make our points withiout personal aatacks.

[amos2]

One does wonder why the AFAP, and the Industrial Relations Manager, seem to be protected by the mods from any criticism from prune posters.

Over the last few years the AFAP, and the Industrial Relations Manager, have not impressed many of us and when we indicate this they reply with put downs to the rank and file members.

It's about time that the AFAP, and the Industrial Relations Manager, listened to the concerns of the rank and file members.

If they now rubbish this post, why will I not be surprised!

[Much Ado]

If I was removing posts just because I disagreed with the content this entire thread would not exist...and MANY others!!!

One of the really disappointing aspects of BB's like Pprune is it gives voice to people who really have absolutely nothing worth saying, certainly nothing worth listening too.

Virtually none of you are in possession of all the facts and as such you have absolutely no right to attack anyone personally.

This BB is about robust debate where, hopefully, people contributing will learn something they don't already know...but that cannot happen when childish, vitriolic attacks are a constant feature.

More than a few of you need to take a long hard look at what is going on in the world around you and start interacting with it as adults rather than spoilt children.

Play the ball not the man or this thread will be locked.

[Oxidant]

Any more personal attacks on Laurie Cox, or any other person, will result in the poster being banned.

One does wonder why the AFAP, and the Industrial Relations Manager, seem to be protected by the mods from any criticism from prune posters.

There is a difference, criticise the AFAP as is your right. OR vote someone else in to the job!
Remember, the union is supposed to serve the members................


Mini Edit:
More than a few of you need to take a long hard look at what is going on in the world around you and start interacting with it as adults rather than spoilt children.

Play the ball not the man
Can't agree more Much Ado.:ok:

[amos2]

Well, our moderator makes it quite clear, doesn't he?

Our opinions are worth nothing compared to his.

Thanks for that!

Cheers.

Wrong amos2...but you can take a break and give your brain a chance.

Much Ado

[Oxidant]

Sadly you seem to miss the point.:ugh:

"Play the ball NOT the man".................................................

[amos2]

So, what ball are you talking about, mate?

[Oxidant]

Sorry, not going to bite.............
Please READ posts #153 & #152, in that order.:ugh:

[F.Nose]

The Federation needs your help to identify any Australian pilots who have applied and hold Command on an Airbus type such as 320/330/340.


I don't understand the relervance of this. Surely it must apply to any Australian Pilots that hold Jet Command time on any type.

Remember that the initial Jet* A320 skippers were previously flying the B717 and they were obviously able to convert ok. I know Pilots who went from 146 Command to B767 Command in Japan without problems. Likewise 146 Command to B717 ala NJS without any drama yet I also know of at least half a dozen (without counting) Pilots with many thousands of hours in Command 146 and 717 who have applied to Jet* but cannot even obtain an interview.

I think that the AFAP need to broaden their arguement to include all of those Australian Pilots who are qualified, even if they do not currently hold an Airbus rating.

[OLLY ONION]

I for one think that the influx of foriegn pilots will be a GOOD thing for OZ, it may start to dilute the backwards superiority complex that seems to run through your aviation scene. This is the way of the world guys, on one hand you all p*ss and moan about JQ terms and conditions with many stating you wouldn't work for them and then on the other hand get upset when JQ looks further afield. Yes there maybe qualified pilots in OZ who could get a job with JQ at entry level, but how many airbus rated pilots with international experience in both seats that can be taken as DEC are there knocking about?? Not many I would suspect. I, as a foriegn pilot, applied and went through the selection process, I have been told that I am 'suitable for employment' and will be contacted when the current recruitment situation is resolved. I can't wait to get down to OZ where I am sure I will be welcomed with open arms.

:{OLLY ONION:{

[Much Ado]

And on that note this thread has run it's course...:mad: