VAustralia New Routes

[lc_461]

Taken from http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/consumer_goods/article3998893.ece

Branson is moving on to Australia. Later this year he will launch V, an airline that will fly between Sydney and Los Angeles, San Francisco, Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai and Beijing, linking with existing Virgin Atlantic services.

Wonder if it is true? Comments anyone?

[wirgin blew]

Makes complete sense to be able to offer people round the world tickets. Makes sense to make sure any through traffic stays with you or your affiliates.

Whether or not it will happen and the time frame are anybodys guess. The numbers have to add up before they will commit to anything though. There is always ideas coming from the man but I wonder how many actually make it into reality.

[jetblues]

Branson is not launching VAustralia, Virgin Blue is. Branson is a minoirty shareholder in VB. The king of spin is tiresome.

[chicken or fish 2]

VERY Interesting information Ic_461....

I just posted your information on the V Australia Cabin Crew thread....It's the first I've heard about some of the new destinations...

I had heard a whisper about San Fransisco and I'll add two more to the list
1. New Zealand (day trip)
2. Perth (day trip)

This is because the plane won't be in use so they may as well be making money!

[ANstar]

To be honest I wouldnt read to much into it.... A journalist has simply looked at all the destinations Virgin Atlantic fly to that can connect with OZ services.


No announcements have been made to the contrary.

As for the day trips - I think NZ would be a bad move given that pricing is already pretty low on the routes and dumping a 777-300 load of more seats is hardly going to help that

[flyer_18-737]

I doubt New Zealand cause thats Pacific Blue's patch

[Flying Monk]

Not a real good time to be a start up operation!

The sentiment seems to be more about "reducing flying", "flying slower" and "parking aircraft". I wonder if they (DJ Management) will decide this outfit needs to go the way of the new reservations system they were designing and building - but couldn't get to work - for the DJ operation. Perhaps another write off to the tune of $40 million plus plus is on the horizon - $40m was the res system (give or take a few million).

[windytown]

Sending a B777 to NZ makes sense to me as it would allow Pac Blue to expand on the Tasman/NZ domestic without the cost of an extra B737.

The V Aust B777 will have roughly double the capacity of the Pac Blue 737 and could be used on leisure oriented route(s) to substitute for some of the double daily flights, such as ChCH -Syd and Ch-Briis often is, (the leisure travellers would probably value not having the awful NZ 6.30am ish departure times and be pleased with the improved cabin IFE etc). ie one 777 flight a day will replace 2 x 737 800 return trips.

Hence one 777 daily trans-Tasman saves the cost of an additional 737 or frees up a 737 for other routes. Just by sending a 777 across the tasman once a week would (with some shuffling of flight times) allow Virgin to add a twice weekly service to say Queenstown without taking on additional aircraft.

[Animalclub]

Windy
... you have a good argument however it is a proven fact that frequency sells seats... otherwise QF would operate A380 SYDMEL (when they get them, of course).

[windytown]

I agree that frequency can sell and command a premiums, but would add these cavets:

(1) thats far more so for business than leisure travellers and routes - Virgins trans tasman routes out of ChCH are leisure routes and Pac Blue is more leisure orientated than AirNZ or even Virgin Blue OZ eg no PacBlue lounge in ChCH and no IFE on Pac Blue Australians visitng ChCH are very much going for vacations or VFR and generally staying a week or so

(2) the very early morning flights out of NZ are not popular with leisure travellers eg often over represented in promo fairs so my proposed plan would shift cpacity to more popualr times.

(3) they can be selective on what days they reduce frequency ie select days where customers less fussed about frequency

(4) they better cabin ambience of the B777 would give them an edge over Jetstar
(5) on a lot of PAc Blue routes frequency is less than once a day so on the transmans daily freqiuency on a leisure route seems to work fine.


I would not recommend doing this frequency reduction plan on a business oreintated route, where double daily is valued.

FYI AirNZ is consistently charging healthy prices on Wgn OOL with a twice weekly frequency.

[SkySurfin]

I wouldnt be suprised if Voz delayed some of their intended launch services due to the current market. The timing of the launch couldnt be any worse than the end of this year.

[Al E. Vator]

Why?

Why would they want to delay services? They have a cheaper overall cost base (fuel hedging %'s notwithstanding) than QF and there is so much resentment at the effective monopoly on the Pacific that VA will be a surefire winner.

Now is the perfect time to start.

[chicken or fish 2]

I agree....how can you delay the launch when tickets have already been sold?

[Wod]

Not sure I agree entirely with the last two posts.

V Australia cost base is unlikely to be lower than QF - they have to offer International standard Business class on a relatively small fleet. And Virgin Blue costs are reportedly converging with mainline domestic QF.

They also face one-off start up costs, which probably lead to a budgetted loss for the first couple of years. As a side isue, does the 777 payload allow freight in reasonable quantity - if so there's another new start up cost.

And why does everyone think SYD-LAX is a QF monopoly; I thought United was the big gorilla on the block.

Remember both Oz and USA can designate more than one carrier to the route, but over recent time NZ, AA, CO have pulled out.

Finally; I believe you can pull the plug after you've sold tickets.

In that context, will QF proceed with Chile?

Just thoughts.,

[goddamit]

if you're going to start an operation up Oct/Nov is the best time of year. Proving flights before the holiday season. Jan-Mar is always the worst with fewer people cashed up after spending it all during the school holidays. Economics in aviation will only get tougher as time goes on.

[Al E. Vator]

V Aus are on a winner. Why?

Volumetrically, 777 holds more underfloor cargo than 747-400 (look at the back of the 400, it is very restrictive).

QF may have better fuel hedging but VA are operating the far more economical 777 vs Qantas' 747-400s (albeit eventually the A380).

VA staff are way cheaper than Qantas, by a country mile (so much so they may have trouble getting crew). The FA's are way friendlier than QF and that alone will surely cause an exodus from QF.

VA also have an oncarriage agreement with Northwest/US Airways. This alone will feed many pax their way.

Finally, UA are a bit-player on the route. If you've ever flown that airline, you'll know why. QF has an effective monopoly on the Pacific and have squeeled like stuck-pigs to retain that status.

It's all about to change and about time too.

[Flying Monk]

UA appear to have a daily service SYD LAX and a daily service SYD SFO.

So they must at least be a two bit-player.

V Australia planning a daily service SYD LAX.

So they look like they will be the bit-player on the route.

[flyer_18-737]

Anyone know how VAustralia sales are going so far for SYD-LAX

[7x7]

I heard a whisper of a three month delay in their start date. Any truth to that? (Maybe based upon an earlier start date than the current one?) I have to agree that a Feb/March start would be less than ideal, particularly if they've already sold tickets for December/Jan flights.

I haven't looked myself, but my brother in law tells me he looked online at their prices and said they were virtually the same as QF for SYD-LAX. I have to say that surprised me. I thought their whole marketing push was aimed at offering cheaper seats than QF was offering.

[Loiter1]

I don't agree that UA are a 'bit player' on any route, but do agree that their service is atrocious. I flew with them J class and felt like I was sitting in economy with wider seats. What a waste of money. The big premium airlines are also laying off long haul frequency in a bid to save fuel costs. West coast to Sydney frequency would certainly be under review by the bean counters. The real battle will be between QF and V.

[flyer_18-737]

When the A380 is online, would anyone go to VA over QF:=

[greenslopes]

Their going broke before they started.............Thats different!

[flyer_18-737]

Its only going to get worse for them. That 2 years to get profitable with V'Australia might turn into well...never:ooh:

[Howard Hughes]

Redfern, Balmain perhaps...:E

[chicken or fish 2]

Put it this way....there are still HEAPS of seats to buy...I just checked the official VAustralia website.....I would guess around 10% of the flights to LA are full.

[flyer_18-737]

Bring on some Sales VA!

[chicken or fish 2]

I think I read somewhere that the VAustralia flight from Sydney to LA originates in Brisbane.....

ie the 777 -300ER lives in Brisbane and travels to Sydney and then to LA.

Does anyone know if this is true?......
If so do you think cabin crew would be able to be based in Brisbane?

[Dixons-son]

If the sectors are BNE-SYD-LAX then LAX-SYD-BNE that means the 777 will be sitting on the ground in BNE for a good 6-8 hours from in the morning till it leaves again that arvo. dont think it will start in BNE

[chicken or fish 2]

Good point Dixsons Son.......They are going to loose money if they on the ground...don't think they will want that.....

[flyer_18-737]

But they are going to lose money if its in the air also

[Al E. Vator]

flyer 18 747...how do you work that out?

Cost base for VA cheaper than QF.
777 cheaper to operate per seat than 747.
Pax disgruntled with QF and UA service standards and ripoff prices.
Virgin brand strong in both US and Australia.
Oncarriage with Northwest.

Regardless of fuel prices, sounds like a market ripe for the picking.

[engine out]

I understand that the SYD-LA route has substantial traffic but hopefully those wise people at V have looked at other options to the US. I reckon running a 777 PER-BN-LA would be a good option (though admit i havent looked at the fleet usage time). I also would think that there are plenty of under-utilised US destinations that could be opened up.

This may have been done ages ago but why pick that livery? From a distance there is a slight resembelance to another australian airline (ambush marketing maybe?). It has some similarities with Virgin Atalantic but little with VB.

[Al E. Vator]

Given the competitive advantage VA have over QF in almost every aspect I would suggest they consider (not nec in order):

* Double daily SYD-LAX
* Daily MEL-LAX
* Daily MEL-SYD-YVR
* 4 x Weekly BNE-LAX
* 3 x Weekly SYD-PER-JNB
* Daily MEL-SYD-SFO
* Daily SYD-TYO
* Daily MEL-BNE-TYO

[MAX]

CX punches out SYD-HKG 4 times a day. Why not that too? Will link in with VS.

MAX:cool:

[chicken or fish 2]

Hot off the press....

V Australia are going to start with going to New Zealand and/or Perth while the 777-300ER's are on the ground...

Then go to more destinations early next year when the other 777-300ER's arrive..like
BN-LA
ML-LA
AKL-LA
SY-Shanghai
SY-HKG
SY-San Fransisco

[SkySurfin]

Starting up an airline whilst there is a dowturn in the economy is like trying to start a car on a hill while rolling backwards.

Fuel cost has a much larger effect on longhaul flights than it does on short haul. The longer routes they fly the greater the cost..... I appreciate they have one of the best aircraft to deal with this, but there are other factors that will make profitability very difficult. They will not only need to fill every seat on the plane, they will also need to charge a very high premium for some of these seats (im not sure they offer a service that justifies this?). Id be very suprised if V could make money by filling up a plane with low cost saver seats. Air NZ operates the 200ER on long haul routes and the only reason its still profitabile with todays fuel prices is the businesss class seats that bring in the high end dollars. If Air NZ had a plane full of Economy seats or specials I know for a fact that they wouldnt break even.

The year ahead is going to be a very tough one for airlines. If airlines had a choice they would park all their planes and wait for the storm to pass over. They cant do this, so instead they must attempt to minimise their losses in the best possible way. The fact that V oz are starting in this environment is going to make for some very interesting times.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Starting up an airline whilst there is a dowturn in the economy is like trying to start a car on a hill while rolling backwards.


Do you lot have a reverse gear in NZ?

bbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[C441]

There's a rumour quietly circulating that the Kevin07 team will release any Australian restrictions on the Pacific airways from July or August.

That will make it tough for any South Pacific airlines; particularly start-ups.

[Wiley]

Fuel cost has a much larger effect on longhaul flights than it does on short haul. Only one word I wanted to follow this quote, but the program won't accept my post with only one word, which is:

Discuss.

[SkySurfin]

Fuel cost has a much larger effect on longhaul flights than it does on short haul.

I could be wrong but the way I understood it goes like this.

Longer routes=more fuel to get from A to B (thats fairly obvious)

More fuel=More weight

More weight=higher fuel burn per mile

On average an Ultra-long haul aircraft will take off with heavier weights than a shorter haul aircraft. resulting in lower ceilings and higher fuel burns....... Im talking about the same plane that flies 12-14 hours sectors VS one that flies 8-10 hours. could be telling porkies, correct me if im wrong.

Back to the subject..... When are these planes suppose to arrive?

[chicken or fish 2]

V Australia have applied to the USA to operate services to:


Los Angeles International Airport
San Francisco International Airport
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport
McCarran International Airport (Las Vegas)
New York JFK International Airport.

[weasil]

In addition, we are electing to retire six Boeing 747-400 aircraft, reducing our international capacity by 3.5 to 4.5 percent year over year in the fourth quarter of 2008 and 4 to 5 percent year over year in 2009. This change recognizes that, while the vast majority of our international markets are performing quite well, there are a few markets that simply can’t be profitable at today’s fuel prices.


These are the ones used mainly for Australia and Asia, they will be gone from the fleet by the end of this year. No word yet as to whether we will continue flying to Australia.

[Tankengine]

Ralph's been smoking again!

Longhaul : typically 300-350 kg/hr for each extra tonne.
Shorthaul : typically 50-80 kg/hr for each extra tonne.

Carry weight for a longer time burns more! Duh!:zzz:

[Timber]

Depending on the aircraft you burn 3-5% per hour of the extra weight carried (3% for the most modern engines and 5% for the gas guzzlers) . So, 2 hour flight = 60-100 kgs extra burnoff per ton extra weight; 4 hour leg = 120-200 kgs extra burnoff per ton extra weight, etc etc.

[qantel]

Perhaps a new route to seize.... Cns-Nrt, Cns-Ngo? If they did how long would it be before we see one up north?

[alangirvan]

Long haul versus Short Haul: When Qantas and TAA were separate airlines, Qantas wanted to do SYD-PER and MEL-PER with 747s, which it said would be much more efficient than the domestic 727-200s which were used at the time. 2000 is a short distance, even for 747-200s. So, was Qantas right to say that in 1980? The ideal plane for SYD-PER was the A300-600 as operated by Compass - a better plane for the distance than current A330-200s.

On short domestic distances, like SYD-MEL, you could say that less than 500 miles is too short to have a meaningful fuel saving operating a 737-400 versus a 727-200 since the cruise is a short part of the flight. For the distance, the MD-80, as operated by Compass II was the ideal plane.

The two planes that should have been the best for Australia were operated by airlines who failed.

[7378FE]

There is unused capacity in the Australia-UAE bilateral on the Australian side, the UAE side of the bilateral is fully utilised and you cannot get a seat on Emirates or Etihad to the Gulf without paying thru the nose.

QANTAS seems unwilling to use this capacity, so watch this space :E

[404 Titan]

Tankengine

You said:
Longhaul : typically 300-350 kg/hr for each extra tonne.
Shorthaul : typically 50-80 kg/hr for each extra tonne.
I think you meant to say:
Longhaul: typically 300-350 kg/tonne/sector
Shorthaul: typically 50-80 kg/tonne/sector

Ralph the Bong

While Tankengine was incorrect in his use of kg/hr, he is infact right when he says:
Carry weight for a longer time burns more!
I have just done a comparison of three different aircraft types in our fleet and compared the differences of carrying an extra tonne of payload on a shorthaul sector and a longhaul sector. The results even supprised me.

A330-300
Shaulhaul: 0.053 kg/tonne/nm
Longhaul: 0.067 kg/tonne/nm

B777-300ER
Shorthaul: 0.053 kg/tonne/nm
Longhaul: 0.065 kg/tonne/nm

B747-400
Shorthaul: 0.066 kg/tonne/nm
Longhaul: 0.089 kg/tonne/nm

[Tankengine]

404 Titan,

Thank you, I was wrong with that, typed it quickly in the HKG lounge as my flight was being called.:ouch:

Ralph,
I was agreeing with SkySurfin, it is simply weight carriage over time if you compare long[>8hrs] and short [<3hrs]:ok:

If you compare for eg 3hrs and 4 hrs then your longer winded climb/cruise comparison is valid. Not really long/short though.:rolleyes:

[chicken or fish 2]

I just read in The Australian Newspaper......

"Meanwhile, Merrill Lynch aviation gurus suggest Virgin can avoid the need for an equity raising if it defers or cancels plane orders. It raises the prospect of Virgin cancelling some, or all, of the Boeing 777s on order. The planes -- estimated to be worth $115 million apiece -- are pivotal to the launch of the offshore arm, V Australia, in December;"

Doesn't sound too good...but my gut feeling says it will go ahead......they have already invested so much money!

[Muizenberg]

Hate to rain on anyones parade...if VA are defering the remaining B777-300's is this where BA are getting them from???

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330801

[wirgin blew]

Could still start with 3, sell the next 12 orders that they have from Boeing to raise some cash and put themselves at the bottom of the queue for some more later on perhaps???

Its hardly a positive move for the direction of the company but it couldn't hurt the bottom line.

Discuss.

[strobes_on]

If you don't see 3 aircraft you probably won't see the operation start.

I would have thought 3 aircraft is the minimum number that this operation would require given sector times and maintenance requirements etc.etc.

Finance wise, would 3 aircraft give VA critical mass ? I guess only time will tell.

[chicken or fish 2]

From the Australian Newspaper...

"V Australia - the international arm of Virgin Australia - selected the 777-300ER last year and will take delivery of its first of 15 in November to launch services to the US."

So they still have 5 months!

[insert_name]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330801

Post #18
CC trainers mentioned the figure 4 yesterday and added that these a/c would not have any 'First' as added to all the other issues that class is not looking to encouraging for the future. That said the a/c must go to LHR so which routes might have 'first' reduced or withdrawn.

Hmmmm sounds like V A aircraft indeed.

One reason could be is they decided to start with 3 777-3ER, cancel some of the orders or options on the 777 and possibly swap for 787 slots or cash, then grow the business with other types such as 787-9?? Even though the 777 is lean on fuel from my limited knowledge the 787 will be better. There are a few slots available now for the A380 as a few operators are rumored to be delaying delivery, could they be getting them?? Is an A380 90% full cheaper on fuel per person compared to the 777-3ER 90% full?

Just a thought :confused: :confused:

[PLJ]

As an F/O flying these routes how much flight time do you log if crews are Capt, F/O, 2 x S/O? Does all of the flight time go towards the 1000hr per year.

Also how is rest usually managed? One spell of about six hours or is it swapping every two or three hours? (Think the sectors are about 14-15 hours)

[KRUSTY 34]

From the AFAP,

"VA has 4000 applicants and in their opinion no pilot shortage exists....Despite this recruiting suitable First Officers seems to be a problem"

VB pilots who are frozen and offered a VA spot will have to pay out their VB bond
The training salary will be paid untill line training commences
Passport costs ASIC etc will not be covered by VARichard Tanner (HR) states..."advancement would be merit based for VA and that was his position for VB in the future..."

So what can we draw from this?

VA will have snowballs chance in hell of recruiting enough qualified 777 drivers for the window seats. Current DJ pilots will be willing to jump ship without adequate protection for their positions (NOT!!)

Best to sack Mr Tanner now, and get with the real world. VA's start up problems will be bad enough without d!ckheads like this bloke calling the shots!

[chicken or fish 2]

I've just been told there is a huge billboard in Brisbane advertising V Australia Brisbane to LA direct starting in February 2009.

I also heard a new Sydney to NY route for late 2009.

And new rumoured destinations include Vancouver, India, China, Paris and London Via Singapore.

Very interesting!!:E

[Wizofoz]

also heard a new Sydney to NY route for late 2009.


Well it won't be direct unless they find some 777-200LRs!!

[Animalclub]

In my airline days "direct" did not necessarily mean "non-stop". Has that changed?

[DJCCGuy]

BNE LAX direct is coming ... however it has not been announced yet ... there's a billboard on Airport Drive in BNE about BNE to LAX with V ... however in the small print (hard to read when you're going 80km/h) it says that it consists of a connection through Sydney with Virgin Blue domestic.
However as I said it wont be long til it is announced... my main interest is how they intend to crew the operation from BNE... BNE base perhaps?:cool:

[captaintunedog777]

Well things are going to change. With a share price of 50c who is going to pay for all this. Toll I don't think so. ANother share issue. You have got to be joking.



Tell him he is dreaming

[DJCCGuy]

they will do everything they can to get this airline up... if it doesnt happen now, it'll never happen, thats what Godfrey has told staff... and the only chance it wont happen is if fuel hits $200 a barrell, then there's a possibility it wont happen

[KRUSTY 34]

Well, If that's the case then, they had better bite the bullet and offer a realistic salary to their professional pilots. If they do that, then at least serious crewing issues won't be on the list of their obstacles.

[captaintunedog777]

Hey somebody better remind Krusty the golden age is over. I reckon there are around 1000 united pilots whom wouldn't mind this gig if it were to go ahead. :}

[KRUSTY 34]

I dunno tune'777, they still must have the right to reside in OZ. And remember, the United pilots have been furloughed, not sacked. Big decision to pack up and move across the other side of the world, especially if you old job may be waiting in 3 months time.

A lot has been said by airline managements about the misfortunes of others. To hold that up as an example as to why we should condone the continued degradation of our profession is just what they are hoping for. It's not a plan to attract and retain quality crew. It is wishfull thinking by self interested string pullers who will do and say anything to protect their own positions.

Whether or not that sort of attitude prevails, I guess remains to be seen.

Oh, and by the way, have you heard about the request to VOZ second officers to pursue other avenues if they so wish!!!

[tenfouroldmate]

United pilots have been furloughed, not sacked. Big decision to pack up and move across the other side of the world, especially if you old job may be waiting in 3 months time.


God, please keep the yanks out of OZ, PLEASE!!!:uhoh:

The airways would never be the same.:sad:

10 - 4 out

[farrari]

K34, What does your last comment mean re VOZ 2nd officers

[Howard Hughes]

they still must have the right to reside in OZ.
Not if they offer an LAX basing they don't, works for QF cabin crew, why can't it work for V Oz?;)

[Wiley]

God, please keep the yanks out of OZ, PLEASE!!!Hmmmm.... there were quite a few of us who expressed similar sentiments some 19 years ago... and met with overwhelming indifference from the great Australian unwashed and our colleagues within the industry who were not not directly affected.

[KRUSTY 34]

farrari,

Just what I heard from a collegue today! Apparently some of the new hires at VOZ have been contacted with that suggestion.

They are all Cruise F/O's, Junior F/O's, Second Officers, or whatever the HR department chooses to call them. At least 3 of whom I know, although highly experienced in their own right, but not fitting the correct profile for a window seat, have been told (cryptically) that they may seek other opportunities if they wish!

Now, you draw your own conclusions, but it seems to me as though VOZ may end up with a number of expat Captains, a sh!tload of 2nd Officers, but very few willing to commit to the right seat on the apallingly low package on offer. End Result, an over-supply of back seaters for whom VOZ have already given an undertaking to employ! Wouldn't be a good look if they have to retrench a stack of pilots before they even start!

This is a rumour network, and the information comes to me second hand, so someone in the know might like to elaborate?

[MAX]

Rumour is the cruise FO's are being sim trained first. They therefore have a good 3 month break before operations start ( and line training).

They are therefore being told they can find a second job in their time off, whilst still being paid by 'V'.

The rumour I heard anyway.

MAX:cool:

[KRUSTY 34]

That seems to join the dots MAX.

Hope for the sake of the boys and girls, that's the case.

[TopTup]

A direct entry FO with CX based in Melb or ADL, etc is on $AUS84 k a year base salary, increasing to $117 k over 3 years....can anyone confirm that??????

[intake]

TopTup, was invited to interview Dec 07 in Syd (FO paxfleet) and was told AUD$92K. Didn't attend the interview! Things may have changed buy now??

[TopTup]

Wow.

So all the doom and gloom that VA are such ba$tards for the pay on offer for an FO is just the same as one of the more respected (??) world airlines.....

Not saying it's right or wrong. Just curious. I suspect T&C better at CX though? Grass is always greener.

Take tax in HK + expat allowances + medical insurance, etc a CX SO is potentially better off than a CX DEFO at an o/s base. Food for thought, eh!

[Traffic]

As Qantas has dropped the ball in Japan there must be huge potential to pick up a lot of traffic that has bled off to Korean, China Airlines, Cathay, Thai, Malaysian and Singapore.

A Narita service could also double Virgin Group capacity for London-Sydney traffic.

A Narita service might also provide better a/c utilisation.

QF is now the cheapest carrier on the Australian route ex-Japan, even though the alernatives involve a transit. That goes to show how badly QF has dropped the ball.

Virgin could charge what they liked and still fill the a/c.

[chicken or fish 2]

V Australia airfares went up to $2009 today!

[flyby]

Hi krusty , dont know what you have heard but at v aus there has been no cruise fo 's asked to persue alternate jobs, however due to the large time between training and commencement of the operation in late november quite a few guys have asked to go back and fly with previous employers for two reasons;
A- make liitle extra cash , cant blame them there and

B- maintain flying skills during the 2-3 month lag, especially with the crfo's

The management have actually supported this, which i think is very generous as technically they own your yearly flight hour alotment , and all this while still being paid buy V aus.

At the moment they seem to be having trouble recruiting enough fo's and promotion may happen faster than 2-3 yrs. Well you can only hope.:}

Hope that clears up a few rumours anyway, we just have to pray the oil price stabilisers in the near future for everyones sake. Although at rex the recruitment slowdown seems to be helping rex recoup pilot numbers and heard today that the pilot ranks are getting back up to normal numbers again, at last count i think they said they need somewhere around 235 pilots to comfortably run the schedule with reserves for sickleave.
Hope you all are well at rex and good luck!!
Especially with the eba negotiations.:ugh:

[Tangan]

V-Australia to operate Brisbane - Los Angeles 3 times per week from March 2009

[chicken or fish 2]

V Australia will direct its third 777-300ER aircraft to the Brisbane-Los Angeles route

[wirgin blew]

On the bandwagon


V Australia flies Brisbane-Los Angeles from next year

The Australian

July 04, 2008

VIRGIN Blue's new international arm, V Australia, will fly direct from Brisbane to Los Angeles from next year.
Brisbane-LA will be the second route for V Australia after it begins its direct daily service from Sydney to Los Angeles from December 15 this year.

V Australia will offer discount economy return flights of $1234 from 1400 AEST today, until sold out, to celebrate the latest route. Normal return economy fares will start from $2087.

The Brisbane-LA service will operate on Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays from March 1, 2009.

VA said it conducted extensive research before deciding to commit the resources to operating a trans-Pacific flight to and from Brisbane.

Qantas is now the only airline that flies direct between Brisbane and Los Angeles.

VA general manager Scott Swift said the Brisbane-LA route will bring new opportunities for Queenslanders to travel to the US and will benefit the state's tourism industry.

Queensland Premier Anna Bligh said she welcomed V Australia's vote of confidence in the state.

“Virgin Blue has already delivered significant benefits to this state in terms of domestic tourism and resulting business and economic spin-offs.

“No doubt, the new V Australia direct flight will do the same.”

V Australia is now on a recruitment drive for international cabin crew.

Virgin Blue shares rose 2 cents, or 4.17 per cent, to 50c in mid-day trade. The benchmark S&P/ASX 200 Index gained 0.6 per cent.

[chicken or fish 2]

Rumour has it that "V-Oz has applied for SYD-NRT and SYD-JNB"

[Wod]

JNB certainly possible.

QF have an application in for more frequency

Current Cases (http://www.iasc.gov.au/iasccurr.aspx)

[chicken or fish 2]

V Australia's $1234 airfare special has just sold out, so that puts an extra $1.5 million in their pocket!

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday flyby.

Several of REX's previous Captains have asked to "come back". There has been a modification to the EBA that allows for this, but only under certain conditions. I was also under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that even though they are not flying yet, the Cruise F/O's are in fact employed and are being paid. If they have recieved a pay check, then they may not qualify for a return under the EBA L.O.A! Gets complicated doesn't it.

Call me a cynic, but I do smell a rat. "Maintain flying skills". Give me a break! As if that's going to matter to these guys. "earn extra cash". Yeah, possibly. But If they are being paid, and if they already had accepted the lower income, then it seems a hell of a lot of trouble just for 2-3 months? Remember, If these guys are no longer current, then considerable Check and Training resources (something that REX are very short of) will have to be devoted to get them back up to speed. For what? 2-3 months!

Time will tell, but I reckon these guys can see the wheels falling off this thing before it's even started. If they wait too long, then they will be out in the cold. I only hope for their sake, it's not too late already.

[flyby]

Hi Krusty sorry "the maintain flying skills " is my wording not a company line from V , the Cruise relief first officers are currently paid during training and will continue untill start of operational commencement. Again the path of flying while waiting for the start up was initiated by the crfo's Not the company.
Cynical or not you are correct that time will tell with all this but i think personally its all going to come together , maybe not without teething troubles but that also occurred at virgin.
By the way another Rex owned company is looking for saab drivers so there might be a few paths to take if a bit of work was wanted in the mean time.Alot of the guys also come from Ga rpt operators so the check and training might not be such a barrier to going back , actually their previous companys have actually approached a few of them asking if they want to come back casually, probably what sparked all this.

[Casper]

V Aus are having serious problems getting captains with "experience on type."

[dirty deeds]

I have said this once before, if anyone at VAus has heard the words, "this is a start up operation, we will look after that down the track", you have already taken your first pineapple. Good luck to you all, hope it works out for you all. For everyones sake at the Virgin Group, I hope the price of oil comes down (nothing I am reading is saying so), if not, the whole groups operations are in for some ruff times. I have heard layoffs etc are on the cards if the oil does not some down soon. But a High Priest at Camp Davidian reckons that this is just an "oil spike, but if its not, all bets are off". I dont know what papers he is reading, but thats not the general thought. Good luck to all.

I wish someone would come and raid Camp Davidian. SQ where are you? Heard a rumour that Tiger is in talks with Toll, anyone else heard the the same?

[Beer Baron]

I would have thought it rather unlikely for V Australia to fly SYD-JNB in a 777. With ETOPS rules as they are there would be a VERY significant increase in track miles to stay in ETOPS range. Whether it would make the route uneconomic only the accountants can tell but with the price of fuel going up and up it would certainly eat into any profit.

[Yusef Danet]

ETOPS is dead Beer Baron, and the EDTO ops don't necessarily have any restrictions for latest generation twins.

[bloggs2]

They can't be that desperate for crew considering they can't get the basics in recuitment right. You would think they could manage to answer an email!

From: [email protected]
To:
Date: xx Jul 2008
Subject: Status of your application

Hi V Australia recruitment team here,
We are emailing to inform you that we had previously invited you to a Flight Crew recruitment day and according to our records we have had no acknowledgement from you that you wish to attend. Based on this we have come to the conclusion that you no longer wish to be considered for a role with V Australia therefore we will be removing your application from our database.Should you wish to reconsider and your circumstances change in the future you would be more than welcome to submit a new application via the V Australia website. All the very best.
Thanks and Kind Regards
V Australia Flight Crew Recruitment Team
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear V Australia recruitment team,
As you can see from the enclosed email below, I did in fact reply to your original email on xx May 2008. I did not receive a reply to my email. Based on this I had decided that you were unable to organise an interview for a prospective employee with the requisite experience and qualifications and concluded that it was unlikely that I would accept a position with v Australia considering this is a fairly simple task and that the package being offered is not particularly attractive. Therefore I am happy for you to remove my application from your database. All the very best.
Thanks and Kind Regards in return,
Bloggs2

[chicken or fish 2]

I love it! LOL:D

[dirty deeds]

The word on the street is the VAUS is having problems with getting a suitable check and training system together as a group of check and training pilots have pulled out of the job (ex EK). VB also has requested that their pilots apply on line again for positions at VAus (maybe trying to redirect crews from VB to VAus to help with capacity reductions on the domestic routes). Time will tell! "Show me the monnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnney!!!!!!!".:ugh:

Me thinks all the negative press about VB have caused overseas drivers to re-evaluate their position?

[Nil defects]

That's not true - there is half a dozen good guys already started and a few others on the way from EK.

[Rabbitwear]

Also quite a few guys were not invited for interviews from 777, must have got a little messy with all the applications.

[neville_nobody]

JNB in a 777? How?

[Pentacle]

Back to the topic of the thread, VAustralia New Routes, I note these recent news articles.

Virgin Blue Holdings international arm, V Australia, has submitted a request to Australia’s International Air Services Commission for unlimited belly hold cargo on routes from Australia to Los Angeles, Dow Jones reports.

Virgin further submitted an application for flights between Sydney and Johannesburg five times a week from October.

Source: cargonewsasia.com (http://www.cargonewsasia.com/secured/article.aspx?id=15&article=16550)


V Australia, Virgin Blue's new international subsidiary which has yet to fly, has reportedly applied for the right to fly between Australia and South Africa.

The move follows last month's agreement between the Australian and South African governments opening up rights between the two countries.

The route is currently under-served with Australia's Qantas Airways earlier this year cancelling long-standing tourist bookings because it has overbooked flights. South African Airways also runs services between the two nations.

According to Travel Today, V Australia has filed an application to fly five services per week between Sydney and Johannesburg.

...Travel Today reports it has sought rights from October 2009.

Source: aviationrecord.com (http://www.aviationrecord.com/news-articles.aspx?articleType=ArticleView&articleId=894)

[Redflags]

Well written 'Flyby" :ok:

RF

[SOPS]

"JNB in a 777..how??"....Put fuel in it and takeoff...Im sure it will get there!!:ok:

[r3please]

SOPS - What about ETOPS? I'm not a jet pilot (PPL holder) but wondering what routing the 777 would take to JNB?

[Going Boeing]

Twin engined aircraft flights from SYD to JNB would basically have to fly further north than the QF B744 flights. This would be to remain within the "still air" ETOPS range ((calculated at a fast single engine speed), which I believe is a little over 5 hours for the B777-300ER) of suitable alternate airports such as Perth, Cocos Is, St Denis, Mauritius, Durban etc. The planned route would have to look at the depressurisation case so that at all times the aircraft remains within range of a suitable airport flying at 14,000'/10,000' after loss of pressurisation.

The route flown from SYD to JNB by a twin would on most occasions be significantly longer than the four engined route - not only in the distance flown over the earths surface but also because it would require flying into stronger headwinds/jetstreams. Often, the optimum SYD-JNB route involves flying a long way south over the Antarctic land mass but QF operations limit the flights to remain north of the continent (approx 65 degrees South) due to depressurisation issues - Antarctica has a very high plateau in that area.

The twin engined aircraft would not be at a disadvantage on the return flight from JNB as the optimum route is normally further north to take advantage of the tailwinds ie within the ETOPS/depressurisation limits.

[r3please]

Thank you for the explanation GB. I'm hoping they give the crew at least 48hr downtime in JNB after a 15+ flight time.

[Going Boeing]

In the late 1990s, QF started making patterns that had a 29 hour slip in JNB and AIPA took the matter to the Industrial Relations Commission. They were successful with the grievance due to safety/fatigue - and that was for PER-JNB-PER operations. The longer SYD-JNB-SYD ops definitely need 48 hours due to the length of the flight and the 9 hour time zone change - the biggest change in a single sector in QF ops.

[r3please]

Thanks again GB. I doubt the FAAA for those of those on the other side of the F/D would be able to pull such weight with the IRC.

Let hope the patterns are 48hr+ in JNB although V Australia are saying less than 30hrs in LAX for the flight attendants and the time difference is even greater so we will have to wait and see.

Have any F/D crew who are planning to go to V Australia been told their slip time in LAX?

Cheers

[beerlover]

Hey there ,

I hear 2 local nights and from what flight details say the crew would get there at 16.30 local in LA

Sydney - Los Angeles Monday, December 15, 2008

Depart Arrive Flight Via Stops Aircraft Duration Days of Operation
Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su
21:45 16:30 VA1 Non-Stop 77W 13h45m


Los Angeles - Sydney Monday, December 15, 2008

Depart Arrive Flight Via Stops Aircraft Duration Days of Operation
Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su
23:30 09:20 +2 VA2 Non-Stop 77W 14h50m

[Going Boeing]

Let hope the patterns are 48hr+ in JNB although V Australia are saying less than 30hrs in LAX for the flight attendants and the time difference is even greater so we will have to wait and see.

Flights to LAX have a 6-7 hour time zone change (depending on daylight saving). SYD-JNB with 9 hours is definitely the biggest time zone change.

[r3please]

Sorry GB I must have been given the wrong information. When I Googled it the result came back as 17 hours time difference.

Cheers for clearing that up.

:ok:

[Jed Clampett]

r3p you are correct with the 17 hr time zone change but that is because you cross the international dateline and go back a day. The 'actual' time zone change ,as far as the body clock is concerned, from Sydney is 7 hrs ahead ie 1200 Tuesday in SYD but 1900 Monday in LAX. Easily confused and one of the hardest things about flying to LA is working out the time.The other thing is staying awake.:bored:

[r3please]

I think I need to buy a dual time watch :confused:

Off to ebay to find one....

[cokecropduster]

What will the VAustralia conditions for FA's, Team Leader and Cabin Manager be? Thinking of applying...

[chicken or fish 2]

Have a look on the V Australia Cabin Crew thread under Wannabe's...

[Tankengine]

Well that was an intellegent post wasn't it??:ugh:

[porch monkey]

Yeah, didn't make much sense to me either. Unless someone got a knockback.......

[Jenna Talia]

WTF is JS?

JT

[Red Jet]

Quote: "WTF is JS?

JT"

I believe he may be referring to the only airline in the world that is "one star and proud of it!!":}

[Jenna Talia]

Thx mate. I should have realised that. I am so used to seeing the usual abbreviation that it did not register.

JT

[Forward CofG]

I don't know how V Oz is expecting to operate SYD to JNB. The performance and max uplift from JNB will be quite limited due to the airport elevation of 5558ft.
The numbers I come up with are about 302.8t T/O weight. (this is using 30C, QNH 1013 and nil wind on Rwy 03L). With 15degrees its 318.8t.
Probably not going to work very well for a least half of the year due to high temperature alone.

[Lance's Rights]

Jenna Talia and that einstein who replied to your query about "JS" - Ever hear the term "Jack ****"?

[farrari]

QF is weight restricted due this also

[chicken or fish 2]

This is a post from another forum:

The International Air
Services Commission has
granted V Australia unlimited
frequencies on the US route.

[chicken or fish 2]

V Australia has just been grated access to the Australia–South Africa route by the government due to the lack of competition and high fares currently in operation.The Virgin Group carrier has been given immediate access and a total capacity of five weekly services between Sydney and Johannesburg using B777–300ER aircraft with a capacity of 361 seats.

“We have no plans at this stage,” said Mr Godfrey. “We have an ability to run by October 2009... [But] there are other routes.”

V Australia will see delivery of five B777-300 ERs, with three to be delivered by Christmas, one in April 2009 and one in October 2009.
The three due by Christmas have been earmarked for the already announced North American services.
April’s new craft will be to a third, as of yet unannounced destination. Currently it is highly unlikely that this will be the South African service, with Mr Godfrey saying it is “probably not a reality”.
This leaves the October B777 left on the table, and indications are good that V Australia will start South African services with the craft.

(e-travel Blackboard)

[OverRun]

The very useful post by Forward CofG got me concerned, because I for one had been looking forward to the flights. Just how marginal are the operation economics?

Assuming 180 min ETOPS (or ETDO), the approximate distance is 6444 nm. Total fuel needed I calcuate as 109.6T with standard holding fuel.

I calculate that at 15 degC air temp, 318.8T takeoff weight, they can get off with 348 pax (which is no problem in a 361 seat config) and basically nil cargo. With 30 deg 302.8T T/O weight, it is down to 206 pax which is not acceptable. All at nil wind.

So it will have to be the old middle of the night departure from JNB trick. Much beloved of underpowered early model 747s. By the middle of the night, it has cooled down in JNB with the altitude helping considerably, and hopefully there is some wind, and hopefully Sydney has no bad weather requiring more holding fuel. Of course, Perth is always close by for a tech stop, and ADL and MEL for diversions. Should make it reliably, but I think it would be a much better operation coming to/from Perth than Sydney; no prizes for guessing where I live.

[Lord Flashhart]

Let me guess- Another South African living in Perth.

[Masif Eego]

Not much speculation going on in here for a while

Oh, and how is VA's EDTO approval progressing.........:hmm:

[noip]

The only option for 777 ops to JNB would be from Perth, owing to ETOPS considerations. They'd need 207 min ETOPS, otherwise they'd have to fly on a Northerly arc to keep coverage.

Great circle YPPH-FIMP (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=ypph-fimp%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=nm&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=500&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=207)

Rgds

N

[chicken or fish 2]

From the VAustralia website:

1st aircraft.....Syd to LA limited services (27th of Feb)
2nd aircraft.....Syd to LA daily (21st of March)
3rd aircraft.....Bris to LA limited services (8th of April)

Good news for everybody involved!

[DJCCGuy]

A new route announcement is coming. They take delivery of the a/c today, so would be expecting the to announce next destination to celebrate.

[Sunstar320]

Johannesburg? as Godfrey said
We have an ability to run by October 2009

[Jabawocky]

And here she is folks, due to depart Everett 2pm 28th, local time.

VH-VOZ (was VGA before for some reason?)

http://file048b.bebo.com/21/large/2009/01/28/03/4525920200a9970409981l.jpg

http://file048b.bebo.com/21/large/2009/01/28/03/4525920200a9970409965l.jpg

http://file048b.bebo.com/21/large/2009/01/28/03/4525920200a9970409952l.jpg

http://file048b.bebo.com/21/large/2009/01/28/03/4525920200a9970409941l.jpg

http://file048b.bebo.com/21/large/2009/01/28/03/4525920200a9970409930l.jpg

http://file048b.bebo.com/21/large/2009/01/28/03/4525920200a9970409909l.jpg

http://file048b.bebo.com/21/large/2009/01/28/03/4525920200a9970409897l.jpg

Hope you enjoy her!

J:ok:

[inandout]

Does it have Business Class

[Sand dune Sam]

You could of at least taken a photo of the Cruise F/O seat for KRUSTY34 and his band of merry men.;)

[HAMO]

Those green seats in YCLS look just as bad as QF have put in their A380

Is there a clearance sale going on for green fabric for aircraft seats ??

:yuk:

[KRUSTY 34]

Jaba'.

Are the last two(2) photos those of the crew rest?

Sam.

I have absolutely no idea of what you are on about!!!

[Daffyd Thomas]

lol

Newson?

[High-Bypass]

Do the CRFOs get a seat on the flight deck do they??

Thought they'd be busy making beds or helping out in the cabin.

[chicken or fish 2]

Thanks for the sneak preview Jabawocky! Can't wait to see her in the flesh!

[Parc-Ratstej]

Such a shame that the VB crew wont be flying the aircraft due the ****e conditions-surprised that they found enough crew of substantial experience and qualification prepared to fly a modern heavy aircraft,living in an expensive western country for the worst conditions and remuneration in the western world.When only 2 pilots from a core group of 800 accept the conditions on offer, there is obviously a problem with the entire package-the numbers speak for themselves!
Of more concern is that this operation will no doubt be the downfall of the entire Virgin Blue group-Forward bookings are woefull!

As I said at the start-such a shame!!

[B043]

Nothing beats a 777-300ER..................Nothing ;)

[Getzo]

I think it should be named, Plane Jane :eek:

Getzo

[THE ORACLE]

BO43........How about the reported collapse of international air travel markets (particularly the leisure market) due to the global financial 'meltdown' which is threatening the jobs of all the typical discount travellers.

Or what about survival instincts of all the major incumbent airlines in the current climate who will act decisively to protect their existing customer base now and into the future from the further threat of additional competition.

Now don't you think THAT might beat a shiny new (and very, very, expensive) 777-ER?

[Dale Hardale]

Right on Oracle.

Glad someone has injected a sense of reality into this topic. You would have to be in cloud cuckoo land to think this operation has a long term future in the existing dire economic conditions across the world.

With major world economies starting to experience worrying rises in unemployment, international recreational air travel will be near the bottom of people's priorities.

VAustralia was conceived in much better economic circumstances and had those circumstances continued, may well have succeeded. Things are very different now and I just don't understand why BG and co. has persisted in throwing good money after bad.:ugh:

[THE ORACLE]

Dale,

I suspect that for BG and Co. the 'known' penalties for not proceeding (the real $$$ costs associated with A/C contract terminations combined with their perception of a position in global markets), far outweighs their ability to perceive the hitherto 'unknown' possibility of commercial failure!!

In greek mythology, Narcissus was so attracted by the beauty of his image reflected in a pool that he fell in and drowned. Perhaps a similar emotional environment exists in the Brisbane Boardroom. The DJ share price clearly shows the investment community does not share such narcissistic optimism for their current business plan!!

[KRUSTY 34]

Morning ORACLE, Dale.

ORACLE, on a somewhat smaller scale I know, but I was chatting to a certain manager (WL) about the folly of going ahead with an expansion some 18 months ago, despite all indications (in this case lack of crew) that it was doomed to failure. His answer to me, "What were we supposed to do, we had gone too far to stop"!!! The rest as they say, was history.

It's a sad testament to management at these operations, where the power of wishful thinking appears to rule over even basic common sense!

[rescue 1]

I think the real reason for the roll out of VA is the cost of unwinding versus the commercial outcomes in the first year.

I suspect the line in the sand is not far away...

However, given the number of pilots and cabin crew that have accepted positions (in addition to sales, ops etc), I think we should all be saying "God's speed" to VA and hope for success. This would be the best outcome for the industry...

[THE ORACLE]

Rescue,......notwithstanding your kind sentiments, DJ/VA is a publicly listed consortium and the Board of Directors are responsible to ALL THE SHAREHOLDERS under the rules of the ASX, to act 'prudently' (which is a financial term meaning to act 'discreetly or cautiously in managing ones activities').

Under the law, Company Directors are not afforded the luxury of making decisions which rely on 'hoping for success'. If you search DJ's records (on the ASX) you will see that BG has already lost a substantial personal fortune in the DJ share price slide, which at this very moment is nudging trading below 30 cents.

With so much uncertainty in the air transport market (such as Air France/KLM - Europe's biggest airline yesterday confirming an expected loss for the year of 150 Million Euros and Singapore Airlines also yesterday confirming a reduction in activity (and exposure to loss) due to the current climate), I think both the mum and dad DJ/VA investors and the DJ/VA staff should be seeing a lot more 'prudential restraint' than the 'risky' decisions currently being made by the DJ Board.

[dizzylizzy]

So someone mentioned to me that perhaps it could also be used on the SYD-PER run...

In the words of Dorris Day "Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps".

[KRUSTY 34]

Or maybe...

Kay Sara', Sara'

Appologies for the spelling :confused:

[Mstr Caution]

So, have they heard from a certain legal dept, about the livery yet?

[Wingspar]

Reminds me of a certain truth about how to make a million dollars in aviation?

[coaldemon]

So for all of you entrepeneurs out there, when is the best time to set up a new airline? As long as VB has the pockets for it and if they can get a customer base / superior reputation over the next year they will probaly do pretty well out of it. If it is successful then it will add considerable shareholder value which is what the Board would be looking at. If some of you had been running Boeing in the 50s there would have been no 707 (too risky). The rest of you would have been flying Tuploev's (or more likely watching someone else fly them). Very interesting to see the outcome but if the unemployment numbers are right there won't be much recruitment happening over the next year or so (except maybe at V Australia).

[KRUSTY 34]

I hope you're right coaldemon.

Old Chinese saying... "Tortoise only go forward when sticks neck out".

There's another of course, "Good money after bad". Although I don't think it originated in China.

Ultimately time will tell, and your analogy of Boeing is perhaps a good one. Although I haven't heard of many Bill Allen's around the conference table at Breakfast Creek!

[43Inches]

Why fly a Tupolev when there was perfectly good DC-8s and Convair 880s around. Boeing had to go jet or die, VB does not have to launch VAus to survive.

[DUXNUTZ]

It seems its become very trendy these days to knock down someone trying to have a go. Australia Day has only recently just passed, lets be a little positive people..

And actually give kudos to those out there giving it a crack so there might actually be future opportunities outside what we've got now.

Incredibly thankfull i don't have to sit next to some of you whingebags for endless hours and hear all your negativity and ill-will.


-Dux

[B043]

Well said DUX! :ok:

[Gordstar]

A kinda left field question, what are ppl's thoughts on CNS being used for more Pacific flights, rather than everything heading south through BNE and SYD?

SYD is a cluster **** and BNE is becoming the same, don't pax just want to get into and out of airports as quickly as possible, and spend minimal time tranisitting to and fro?

CNS has plenty to offer tourists and good connections to other parts of AUS.

Thoughts?

[Led Zeppelin]

Duxnutz and B043 -

Admirable sentiments perhaps, but totally out of touch with financial reality.

This has the potential to be a show stopper for the whole Virgin Blue group. As was said earlier, VB does not have to launch VAus to survive.

[Vorsicht]

Led Zep

VA will not be showstopper for VB. It is a self contained company that will be cut loose if it genuinely threatens the parent company!!

If you read Bransons latest book, that is how all is companies are now setup, so that the collapse of one cannot bring down the entire group.

Admittedly, perhaps he is prepared to sacrifice VB as he has already made his money, but the reality is he guards his brand jealously and a failure of any Virgin company will impact the Brand worldwide, and they are unlikely to let it happen if it is in any way avoidable, and i doubt that funding will be an issue, as long as the long term viability is there.

[Led Zeppelin]

I haven't read Branson's latest, but I was under the impression that in this case, because of the cross (VB and VA) funding guarantees required, there was effectively a link between the financial position (and therefore solvency) of both companies.

If I'm wrong I obviously stand corrected.

[indamiddle]

"... and i doubt that funding will be an issue..."
try reading the fin review or even the telegraph for a different opinion

[Wingspar]

You guys have to get your heads outta the sand!

This is just a couple of quotes from a SMH article today;


The Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation's daily round up makes grim reading. Singapore Airlines is making further capacity reductions to India, Europe and the US. All Nippon Airways is cutting international capacity by 8% including the suspension of several routes to China and reducing frequency on others including Tokyo-Shanghai, Mumbai and Guangzhou.
Japan Airlines is suspending Osaka - Heathrow and reducing frequency on other routes (including Australia, see report here (http://business.smh.com.au/business/jal-downsizes-australian-route-as-demand-drops-20090129-7t44.html)) while also starting to launch its lower cost JAL Express subsidiary on international routes.
And that's just today's edition, which also notes traffic falling at the two great hubs of Singapore and Dubai.

and...
A little further afield, Standard and Poors has British Airways on credit watch negative, meaning its just a step away from having its bonds cut to junk status.

Starting an airline now is suicidal. This is not whining...it is reality. What happens when the weather goes foul at destination? Can you find any sand at 35,000'?


Questions for Qantas as the airline industry hits turbulence, writes Michael Pascoe (http://business.smh.com.au/business/airlines-in-a-spin-20090130-7t7k.html)

[THE ORACLE]

Vorsicht,

If you do some independent research on Sir Dick (rather than believe what he writes about himself), you may vary your opinion of his overall 'track record'.

It is true that he sold half of Virgin Records to start Virgin Atlantic, which struggled mightily until BA was publicly caught by their 'Dirty Tricks' campaign (which I think was the subject of an early book), whereupon it succeeded with the aid of public support for the underdog.

If you 'fast forward' to 2009 and look at the historical substance of his entrepreneurial efforts you will discover many, many, 'train wreck businesses', which must be under great strain in the current climate, including virgin trains, virgin finance, mobile, America, Europe, etc.. Of all these V branded enterprises, VB has been the standout success due entirely to the Ansett collapse 'gift' 6 years ago.

Don't forget that when Toll dumped their 62 percent VB shareholding, they effectively precipitated the current price 'slide' by signalling to the market that the stock was a 'dog' through their massive write down on the 2008 balance sheet.

Virgin Group in response to the share release, publicly announced they would not be increasing their shareholding. Draw your own conclusion on that one!!

As far as administrative 'lifeboats' are concerned, although businesses can be compartmentalised, 'mud sticks' and in the current climate the failure of VA would likely mortally wound DJ.

A loss of passenger confidence associated with 'sister airline' failures has historically resulted in most 'bookings' being switched to alternative carriers (outside the group) to be safe (as the current crop of travellers has seen this all before) and the associated loss of cash flow (within the remaining business), would then deliver the final blow!!

[DUXNUTZ]

If you build it....... they will come!!!! :ok::ok::ok:

[dizzylizzy]

In the words of Beyonce "if you like it then you should've put a ring on it"

[7378FE]

Good things come to those who wait, once word of mouth spreads about how good V Australia is, compared to what QANTAS offers on the 744 routes especially in the main cabin.

Things in the pipeline :


Full codeshare with Delta, Virgin America and Virgin Atlantic.
Skyteam Alliance membership.This will basically mean two SYD-LAX services a day for V Australia. (morning on DL & arvo on VA)

Same plane service JNB-LAX via PER & SYD, this gives PER originating pax same plane service PER-LAX with just a short stopover in SYD, with QF you have to go through the hassle of getting a bus from one terminal to the other at SYD.
Also PER-SYD domestic passengers will have access to B777 service.More goodies coming soon:ok:

[Beer Baron]

If V Australia were to have....
* Full codeshare with Delta, Virgin America and Virgin Atlantic.
* Skyteam Alliance membership.

.... then why would Delta start flying here 4 months after V Aus start up. If they are collaborating together on the route then dumping capacity and competing with each other during a global financial crisis (flying to the heart of the crisis) seems like a foolish idea!

[7378FE]

DELTA and V Australia are not competing against each other, it's called co-operation, each airlines flights will be marketed with each airines code.

It's QF/AA they are aiming to annoy :)

Put simply, VA require at least 2 SYD-LAX a day, and DL is providing the other B777, which suits DL as they have excess capacity at the moment.

[Mstr Caution]

Good things come to those who wait, once word of mouth spreads about how good V Australia is, compared to what QANTAS offers on the 744 routes especially in the main cabin.


Aren't V Aus going up against the A380 on the LAX route as more of the dugongs arrive?

[somewhereat1l]

It will be a smaller cabin than the A380 though and I prefer to fly a Boeing over an Airbus. Just personal choice, I doubt most pax would even know!

Only bad thing about the product that I can see is:

* Turning off reading lights on night flights for the whole of Y section. (we are supposed to give the pax a usb reading light but don't carry enough for everyone.
* Purchasing alcohol (ok you get 1 alcoholic drink free) in Y is going to be difficult to manage .

[Jabawocky]

Aren't V Aus going up against the A380 on the LAX route as more of the dugongs arrive?

And your point is?????? :ugh:

[737NG_Girl]

V Australia B773ER Walkthrough (http://www.vaustralia.com.au/apps/vaustralia/777-3d-walkthrough/)

Computer Generated walk through of all 3 Cabins

[Mstr Caution]

And my point was.....reference the post by 7378FE. That V Aus is not up against the QF 744 alone now that the A380 is also on the scene in LAX.

[oldhasbeen]

WTF??? Paying for more than 1 drink on an international flight?? Whose brainchild is that one?:mad:

[ANstar]

Things in the pipeline :


Full codeshare with Delta, Virgin America and Virgin Atlantic.
Skyteam Alliance membership.
Are you sure about this?

They have just partnered with Alsaka Airlines for some flights (Seattle) and on United's website you can now enter your Velocity FF number to earn points on UA metal. (obviously gone live before an announcement - do a dummy booking and you'll see what I mean.


So that to me looks like there will be NO deal with DELTA.... the Northwest deal was only interlining anyway, not FF.

With the announcement of DL on the route UA have obviously decided to expand the relationship with VA before VA jumped ship to DL.

Same plane service JNB-LAX via PER & SYD, this gives PER originating pax same plane service PER-LAX with just a short stopover in SYD, with QF you have to go through the hassle of getting a bus from one terminal to the other at SYD.

How much demand is there really from LAX-JNB?

I would have thought a PER-AKL-LAX route would have been more viable giving them PER-AKL and AKL-LAX traffic as well as PER-LAX



DELTA and V Australia are not competing against each other, it's called co-operation, each airlines flights will be marketed with each airines code.


As I posted above, why would VA be partnering with UA for their FF program and still partner with DL? I think the DL deal is dead in the water....

[Wizofoz]

Same plane service JNB-LAX via PER & SYD,

Got a map? The fastest way LAX-JNB is NOT via Australia with two stops!!

[7378FE]

Maybe JNB-LAX via Aus isn't the quickest, but with a bit of clever marketing (Stopovers in Australia) and competitive fares, it could attract a few punters to this route.

It won't be a single flight number operation, but it will be a same plane service.

The idea is not to fill a B777 with JNB-LAX pax, you would fill the plane with :
JNB-PER
JNB-SYD
PER-SYD
PER-LAX
SYD-LAX
any pax travelling thru from JNB to LAX with or without a stopover in Aus is the icing on the cake.

Gotta think outside the square, unless you're involved with QANTAS:ok:

[dizzylizzy]

Gosh, how on earth are they going to keep tabs on 1free drink per pax? That'd be a nightmare, imagine family of 4travelling 2children 2 parents. "See as they're too young to drink I'll have theirs".... sounds cheap to me. What's the dealio with no reading lights?

[KRUSTY 34]

Chr!stalmighty 7378FE!

You don't work for the VA PR machine do you?

Whilst I acknowledge your enthusiasm, I don't think Shane Warne could put as much spin on this thing as you have!

[7378FE]

No i don't work for Virgin PR, but i am a part of it :E

[Going Boeing]

Posted by B7378FE
Gotta think outside the square, unless you're involved with QANTAS

I suspect that you are falling into the trap of underestimating your opposition. Just because they are your main competitor doesn't make them stupid. I'm sure that QF will be very competitive and VA will have to work for every pax that they get - unless the Federal Gov'mint leans on them as they did in the post 11Sep01/AN collapse era when they were forced to give DJ 30% domestic market share.

[Mstr Caution]

The idea is not to fill a B777 with JNB-LAX pax, you would fill the plane with :
JNB-PER
JNB-SYD
PER-SYD
PER-LAX
SYD-LAX

But the punters will also have options too:

JNB-PER
As A380 deliveries arrive, capacity is freed up on the 744 to explore routes where other opportunities exist or competion exist.

JNB-SYD Direct services available on QF as opposed to via Perth.

PER-SYD Have you seen how much transcontinental capacity there is these days.

PER-LAX - Options of flying with the QF via Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane as an alternate to the Sydney only option with greater frequencies.

SYD-LAX - The Roo's got that covered as well.

[drshmoo]

Gotta think outside the square, unless you're involved with QANTAS

Really - thats cause we are too busy making money:}

[7378FE]

Really - thats cause we are too busy making moneyhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Maybe it's because QF are busy screwing the public with thier fares, funny how they came down once V Australia came in to the arena :hmm:

[Mstr Caution]

Fares have been comming down in general, long before V Australia came on the scene. I recall reading recently that airfares were the cheapest in something like 17 years. Havent V Aus only been on the scene for 8 or 9 years?

The aviation environment in Australia is quite different from that of the cosy duoply of Australian Airlines/TAA & Ansett of old.

I applaud V Australia if their out there to provide travel to the aussie public for the lowest possible fare. Maybe they should focus on making more money then friends.

[SIDS N STARS]

Gotta think outside the square, unless you're involved with QANTAS

From what i've seen/heard, VA is nothing more than a hybrid concept of CX and EK.... which is where their head honchos were previously.

No imagination, no originality. (except for the Ts & Cs..that was unique)

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Maybe JNB-LAX via Aus isn't the quickest, but with a bit of clever marketing (Stopovers in Australia) and competitive fares, it could attract a few punters to this route.

Of course it could, but a few punters will not make it a success. Qantas could do it 1 stop. What would happen if they had a bit of clever marketing?

I fell like singing "Blinded by the light.............................."

Good Luck.

[Grogbog]

Just read these two articles. It seems to be common opinion that times are going to be tough for V Aus. And with Emirates about to operate the A380 on the SYD-AKL route it's going to be tight for trans tasman operators.

Price war tipped as V Australia prepares for launch | Travel News | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,24994970-5014090,00.html)

Emirates A380 to arrive in New Zealand | Travel News | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,24994973-5014090,00.html)

[KRUSTY 34]

So Heather Jeffery (Vigin Blue public relations chief) says,

"We know we could have not chosen a worse time to launch, but (we) are realistic about our position and the environment we are in,..." An Oxymoron if ever I read one!

Realistic about our position! Lady, I don't think so!:sad:

[Led Zeppelin]

Krusty -

What else would you expect from someone in PR. Spin doctoring at its' finest.

Something has to be making them to go ahead with this flight to economic purgatory.

Would they not have been better to bin it earlier and wear the adverse public perception, which would have evaporated over time. Unless there is a miraculous economic recovery, it's on the cards it will happen anyway.

Now they're risking everything. Bizarre.:ugh:

[jetblues]

Costing $20 million a month from one report

[Going Boeing]

At best, 3 years to break even according to the analysts, boy, with United, Qantas and Delta competing with V Aus, 3 years without a profit, and VB propping them up for three years, it just doesnt look good.

Don't forget that American Airlines also operates the route via code share with Qantas. Their huge North American network provides an excellent feeder service for QF's trans Pacific flights.

[coaldemon]

If it was $20 mill a month VB would have had to report a change in profit/Loss to the Market. Sounds like a good story though :}

[ANstar]

Don't forget that American Airlines also operates the route via code share with Qantas. Their huge North American network provides an excellent feeder service for QF's trans Pacific flights.


And Continental one pass frequent flyer's can currently earn & burn on Qantas - so I preusme this is some more bsuiness that QF will lose (and UA will gain).

[B772]

Slight drift but Virgin America have lost AU$270M over the last 9 months. With the US heading towards a technical depression it will be interesting to see if the backers have 'deep pockets'.

[hotnhigh]

It's great to see the pilots that are moving back and forth to the states organising deliveries, are all taking it for the team and getting around economy.

[oldhasbeen]

Do they have a choice??:p

[max autobrakes]

No choice ,because jetstar don't fly there yet!:}

[Transition Layer]

"Taking one for the team" is how I'd describe VAustralia's paltry pay and conditions.

[Arctaurus]

Taking one right up the khyber is how I'd describe it.:}

[7378FE]

Geez, get over it.

VA is happening, there have been many threads on PPrune on the issue of V Australia not happening which went along the following themes :

It won't happen.
It can't happen.
They won't get the crews with those T&C.
etc. etc

Well on Monday the 9th it is happening when the 1st aircraft arrives in SYD.

If all you grizzerlers on this forum are so concerned head out to the airport on Monday and grizzel there to the VA management.

Wonder how many will turn up? I'll put my house on none.

Either put up or shut up.

[ANstar]

....deleted

[KRUSTY 34]

All the Kudos to you 7378FE. As I said previously, I applaude your passion. Hopefully your remark about putting your house on it won't be the ultimate irony!

Good luck dude. I hope it works out for you :ok:

[THE ORACLE]

7378FE,

Clearly you are an eternal optimist with your latest post. A pessimist, however, might say that on Monday the 9th the 'noose' arrives and will be placed around the 'neck' of V Aus Group Aus as it ascends the financial 'gallows'.

VB's share price continued to 'head south' today and closed at 28.5 cents. Jim Irwin is absolutely corrrect in his comments.

The V Aus Group business plan is totally at odds with the investment community, which will be influenced by world events for a long time to come.

Competition from established carriers will be fierce in all markets and the cost to V Group Aus just to break even, with a declining customer base, I fear will take many many, more $$$ than they have available. QED..

This is going to be a 'train wreck' and the misguided but nontheless hardworking VB staff will soon suffer the consequences accordingly.

[Parc-Ratstej]

7378FE-whatever your smoking,please pass the bowl around and let every one else have some!
Forward bookings on the VA operation are woefull-sure the aircraft will turn up but don't expect it to be here for long.The sad thing is that this will drag the whole VB show down with it-then you'll hear the grizzlers,all five thousand of them standing in the dole que.
Kevin Rudd might be handing out the dollars, but it will take plenty more to fill the seats on your shiny 777.
I hope it survives-but I am seriously concerned about the jobs of all at the VB group-there the ones funding this experiment!!

[pylet]

THE ORACLE summed it up beautifully!

7378FE, do you actually work (have a job) for V Aus? I, like Krusty, respect your optimism - glass half full kind of guy! V would be lucky to have you! ............BUT

Lets not get ahead of ourselves! V will fly, no doubt, it has to. The share price continues to head south atm, imagine what it would do if they axed the much sprouked V that offers the same product as every other trans-pacific carrier, 150 seats less seats per flight than its main competitor, projected to run a loss for several years....oh, and lets not forget the WORST economic climate of recent history!

And as far as routes go. Joburg - LAX was mentioned. Who in their right mind would travel from Joburg to LAX via Australia?

[Capt Basil Brush]

Hopefully your remark about putting your house on it won't be the ultimate irony!

I know of a couple of VB pilot's who have put their house's on the market .........

It was something to do with being debt free when it all goes t!ts up!! :(

[7378FE]

The V Aus Group business plan is totally at odds with the investment community

Since when has the investment community been right about anything?

I think all the negative sentiment here has more to do with QANTAS loosing some (not a lot) of it's cash cow LAX services, where the punters have been ripped off for years, rather than who's paid how many $$$$ for moving a aircraft from SYD to LAX :rolleyes:

[greenslopes]

Well lets not get ahead of ourselves. People will only(well mostly) go with the cheapest airfare, yeh a pretty young doll/lad is nice but in these austere times it comes down to money. Qantas is allready undercutting V Oz and I know I would rather go with an operator who has more than one aircraft when things go a little pear shaped..............
Godfrey has a history of betting the farm on the latest scheme.....Look at how succesful VB was prior to Ansett falling over. Rumour has it that VB was very close to winding up prior to Ansett's collapse. This time there will be no more failing competitor to give V Oz the leg up.
Unfortunately this time BG's ego may get the better of him..........trouble is he'll drag down a hell of a lot of employees with him.
Good luck to all the VB lads and lasses.........you'll need it.
Whilst VB is a very succesful business, V Oz is a lemon.
Remember, a pig with lipstick is still a pig!

[Farsideofuranus]

I 'm sorry, must be on the wrong thread. I thought this one was about V Australia and new routes?

[Bazzamundi]

In the past, the Pacific has been a very profitable route. However, things are very cyclical, and up until 10 years ago I believe it was very unprofitable for QF. Then several years of booming profits, but if the stories are to be believed, the last 12 months has barely made enough coin to get excited about.

[markontop]

With that much spin, ie "Voz for the greater good of the punters" sic, maybe the Boeing boaster is BG. Next they will be keeping the air fair.

[B043]

7378FE

Well said! :ok:

Too many jealous ppl here........From what I hear, good company, good (exprienced) Flight Operations and most of all the 777-300ER. :ok: Sure it will be a slow road, with a lot going against them, but they will chip away at their market share and succeed.

Cheers

PS I remember when Krusty used to comment how they would have failed a long time ago.......hasn't he been less vocal these days. ;)

[AN Flyer]

While the cards seemed stacked against the V-Australia operation, (strong QF FF loyalty and U.S interline feed from AA, competition from a stable United, and possible entry of Delta onto the route) - I think far too many people are very quick to judge it a failure, even if they do have the best of intentions.

The airline hasn't even launched yet and so many people appear ready to pronounce it (and DJ) dead before the first revenue service even takes to the sky!? Why is this instantly a death-sentence for the mainline carrier? Surely if it's tanking in twelve months time, they'll pull the pin?

I do agree that this is possibly the worst time you could launch a service to the U.S - I think DJ has even said that themselves somewhere, but I think it deserves a chance. By all rights it looks like a fairly decent operation (sensible 3 class full service product) with good (read - cost effective) equipment and keen staff/crew.

Hopefully once launched one will see some joint ventures / strong interlining between V-OZ and Virgin America? I see their logo on V's website. Would seem a sensible move?

7378FE - good luck mate. I think a lot of people admire your optimism and hope it works out. Enjoy the 777 delivery on Monday, I'm sure it'll be a great moment for VA! :ok:

[Phlap1]

There will be 3 aircraft on the ground over the next few weeks.
The 777 will carry 150 less pax than the mighty 380, BUT
it will burn around 40 tonnes less fuel SYD-LAX.
Hang in there QF folks you might need to sell YOUR houses.
Seriously it all depends on the economy for all airlines.

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday B043.

Plenty people here just as vocal as Krusty. Feel free to attack them also if you wish.:ok:

To crow about Krusty getting it wrong, is I would suggest, being a little premature!

[farrari]

QF 380 has 450 Pax
Va 777 has 361 Pax
That's 89 not 150

[dizzylizzy]

Oh gosh look at the mistakes on those figures, makes me wonder how many other figures he's botched. Bit of a dizzylizzy moment there.

[Mr. Hat]

I hope they go well. Its going to be tough and you hardly have to be einstein to work that one out.

The way i see it is that they are an alternative to the QF group. You might want a crack at longhaul but not have got into QF. The other advantage is that J*787 vs V 777 will be eventually in competition with eachother for crews and this can only be a good thing.

If they V are around for long enough you will find that the TC's will improve much like they did at VB on the 73. Do you remmeber the early days/pays at vb. Seems these days people in there are much happier with their job. Good luck V.

[farrari]

One VA pugilist DELTA, posted a 1.98 Billion 4Q LOSS, hell how does one compete against that :eek:

[Jabawocky]

One VA pugilist DELTA, posted a 1.98 Billion 4Q LOSS, hell how does one compete against that http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif

Easily if you try hard enough :E

[Capt_CheeseDick]

V Aus will be sucking money from VB at an alarming rate.
...don't you mean PB/Poly Blue!!!???

[Led Zeppelin]

I doubt if there's enough cash anywhere in VB/PB/Poly to save VA.

There are only 2 things that would save this now; One is a massive economic turnaround, and that ain't goin to happen anytime soon. The second is a cash injection from outside the group. Don't know of anyone who would put money into this right now.

New routes to South Africa ???? Whatever they are smoking in bullsh!t castle has certainly affected their minds rather badly. The losses on the pacific should surely focus their attention on basic survival of the Australian Virgin group.

[3 Holer]

Don't know of anyone who would put money into this right now.


Don't know anyone who has the money to put into this right now!

...............and you're right Zepp, it would be sad to see this exercise bring down the main group.

[Wod]

Why all doom and gloom?

V Oz will have budgeted an initial loss.

Delta likewise, except we know they have a bigger (US Domestic) problem.

Historically, QF has confronted two US carriers on a number of occasions. The route goes into a loss for everyone, and one US carrier goes away.

This time we two Aussies against two Yanks. Betcha they indulge in some (legal) collusion.

The high seat factors (and profitability) in recent times also suggest that new entrants will grow the market.

Pity about the GFC:{

[farrari]

Christ Delta and United are that broke, yet bloodly Chapter 11 saves them, they rip off there creditors, get reborn and do it all again- sounds like some other people of late.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"This time we two Aussies against two Yanks. Betcha they indulge in some (legal) collusion."

You wanna' bet? :rolleyes:

[Mstr Caution]

Ok, I get the hint. But I believe the source to be credible. Time will tell.
MC

[Jabawocky]

Thats a big call, last time I made a comment like that, even though it was 100% FACT I got into trouble.................and a couple of months later I was proven right as evidenced by another thread here.

This is no doubt a totally different story, but a big call all the same.

Mods if need be delete this post and the one above!:ok:

[No Idea Either]

Mstr Caution.....

Might as well paint a target on yourself too!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Led Zeppelin]

MC

Yes - that's a huge call. I would have thought that until the VA operation exposes real cash flow issues (and it will), the domestic VB cash position as of now would still be one of financial solvency, in the order of several hundreds of millions of dollars.

I just can't believe that VB's passenger numbers, yield and cash flow at this point in time would cause fuel companies to act in the manner you describe.:confused:

[forgetabowdit]

Looks like MEL-LAX-MEL has been announced now also. Flights from Sept 09, only it looks like they're not loaded into the booking engine yet...

[KRUSTY 34]

They'll be lucky (pax that is) to be loaded on the aircraft itself, the way the market's heading! :sad:

[wirgin blew]

Its too late to stop now. I think the ticket prices to LA haven't hit rock bottom just yet. You have seen a huge drop in Business class fares as airlines struggle to fill seats. Premium Economy is at least going to take some of those management types that have to cut costs. Also don't forget it appears that UA and VA are getting closer together. There is already an interline agreement between UA and VB so that is going to be a huge boost from that part of the US market.

VB has forced QF to reinvent itself as Jetstar to compete domestically. They will have to do the same to the USA or they will take another big hit at a time when they can't afford it.

I would imagine that VA has factored into its business model low yields to start with and I doubt that business model is for less than 12 months, more likely it would be 2-3 years.

Can the competition afford to lose pax in the current economic climate. VB has 30% of the domestic market. Can QF afford to share that loss with UA?

Also you usually buy new planes when times are good and that helps you pay for them. When times are bad you hold on. QF is currently doing the opposite, hence the equity raising and dramatic increase in debt.

Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. I hope that things quickly return to normal because if either of the big two fail it will be a pretty big hit for the Aust economy.

[Dale Hardale]

WB,

I think the problem is rather who is better protected from a capital (cash) perspective. Looking at the 2 major domestic operators (QF/JQ) and VB, any analysis would suggest VB is far more susceptible to the implications of this downturn and lack of credit. It has no big brother (that I know of), limited cash reserves (some of which is tied up in guarantee funding) and no real capacity to raise capital on the basis of its' balance sheet.

Additionally, internationally, it's flying into a depression forming American market, where travel on VA will be very low on anyone's list of things to do. Routes to South Africa is dreamland stuff.

Don't care how long into the future the VA modelling was originally done, you can bet it never factored the current world economic situation.

I have no idea whether MC's statement above regarding fuel credit for VB is true or not, but everyone needs to realise that creditors right now love cash and in a recession/depression, cash and gold are kings. If they see ANY issues with their debtors, credit terms are tightened and/or it's cash on delivery.

VB will be working overtime to make sure that fuel bills are priority paid. Without fuel, it's all over.

[Captain Sherm]

Good luck to them and the crews flying them.

That 777-300ER is, liek every 777 ever built, an awesome machine, flawless to operate and costs probably 30% less per crossing than the museum flight 4 holers. Even against legacy US competitors using the 777 V-Australia will have a very decided cost advantage and then if their service is even 3/4 as good as Virgin Atlantic.....they should do very well. Every passenger paying full or premium economy will be thinking about it and right now there's few paying more than that.

Now if Qantas had 10 or so 777-300ERs and a handful of 200LRs in the stable to handle the Pacific....very different question altogether. But....that horse has bolted.

I reckon until Jetstar starts across the pond with the 787 there's a great window for V-Australia and as I said at the start...good luck to them.

[Arctaurus]

Sherm,

I wonder if QF would consider using JQ A330-200's as a purely interim measure across the pacific direct to LAX. With a reduced payload, it would certainly do it.

[somewhereat1l]

Looking at Qantas loads over the next few months I would say there is a market for another Oz-South Africa carrier. Guests from the UK would have another opportunity to experience Virgin to Australia via Virgin Atlantic to JNB then through to PER/SYD on V Australia.

:ok:

[7378FE]

As a price monitor for various websites, it is of great interest that QF has reduced it's fares from MEL-LAX on the nonstops, but only from 15 Sep 09. (which is when VA start Non-Stops MEL-LAX:rolleyes:)

PAX have been happy to pay the $2500-$3000 fares on this route, then it makes sense to stay with these fares to maximise revenue, people must love fares in that range.

Or have QF been ripping people off and not telling them.

Has to be one or the other:confused:

[strobes_on]

Qantas is such a nice company.

I would find it very hard to believe they were ripping people off. Surely not.:E

[7378FE]

Refering to my post #165 on this topic


Perth is on the map for V Australia, Virgin Blue’s long-haul international division, which took delivery yesterday of its first aircraft — a 365-seat 777-300ER — to launch its service from Sydney to Los Angeles this month.
Speaking exclusively to The West Australian, Virgin Blue CEO Brett Godfrey said V Australia’s planned service from Sydney to Johannesburg later this year could operate through Perth, causing fares to tumble on the route to South Africa.
South African Airways has a monopoly on the route at present.
The launch of V Australia’s Australia-US route from February 27 has already caused a 30 per cent decline in fares, according to Virgin Group president Sir Richard Branson.
Mr Godfrey said V Australia would launch flights from Sydney to Los Angeles and then Brisbane to Los Angeles in April before turning its attention to Johannesburg.
“We are looking at operating through Perth from Sydney to Johannesburg to tap into the resource industry traffic,” Mr Godfrey said.
The airline’s advantage would be its ability to offer the most luxurious transcontinental service for Australian domestic passengers.
V Australia’s 777 is configured with 35 business-class beds, 40 premium economy-class seats and 288 economy-class seats.
Perth is also on the map for Virgin Atlantic, which has expressed a desire to operate non-stop services from London to Perth when it receives its ultra-long-range 270-seat Boeing 787-9 from 2014.
The flights through and to Perth by V Australia, Virgin Blue and Virgin Atlantic raise the possibility that Perth could become a major hub for the Virgin Group.
“We will be linking all our airlines and offering round-the-world fares,” Sir Richard said.
V Australia is now selling Perth travellers some of the lowest standard fares — $1800 return — ever to the US and has linked up with several US airlines for connections to a host of cities.
Sir Richard said he expected fares to remain at low levels “for most of the year”, with a number of promotions planned to stimulate travel in quieter times.
“Our entry (on the Pacific route) will spark a price war,” he said.


Speaking exclusively to The West Australian

Yeah right:)

You heard JNB-PER-SYD first here on PPrune:ok:

Either i'm a mind reader, or BG tells me what he's going to announce. :cool:

[pylet]

As price monitor.....

7378FE: You need a hobby buddy! Also very glad you're not running an airline!

PAX have been happy to pay the $2500-$3000 fares on this route, then it makes sense to stay with these fares to maximise revenue, people must love fares in that range.


Little thing called an economic crisis going-on right now coupled with V Aus coming onto the route. How do you maintain market share and a time like this? Well one of the ways one would think would be to reduce fares! From what I've seen the V 777 offers the same product as QF (except for 'Rockstar' service whatever the **** that is!)

QF have been doing this for decades and came out showing profit estimates in the 100's of millions - even at the worst economic environment in recent history. The Virgin group is estimating running at a loss becasue of V for several years.

I'm not saying V Aus will fail - it may, it may not. Just think sensibly before making unsubstantiated comments.

Captain Sherm: as much as I agree that QF should have bought 777's, it takes more than aircraft type to succeed.

[7378FE]

Little thing called an economic crisis going-on right now coupled with V Aus coming onto the route. How do you maintain market share and a time like this? Well one of the ways one would think would be to reduce fares! From what I've seen the V 777 offers the same product as QF (except for 'Rockstar' service whatever the **** that is!)


The economic crisis existed before 09:00 this morning. but QF still wanted loads of $$$ during the now announced sale period, but strangely has chosen to reduce thier fares to the now announced VA fares:ugh:

I think QF supporters maybe slightly afraid of VA, dunno why, according to most people on this thread VA won't get off the ground.:rolleyes:

[Captain Sherm]

If Qantas have been making "hundreds of millions" even during tough times, and doing that on very expensive equipment, service levels that are perhaps a little jaded and with constrained capacity....then if VA get the service and price levels right they will do well and the market will grow. There costs will be very very competitive.

No doubt at all QFs market share % will fall but it will be off a much bigger base which will grow even more once the 787s hit the various slightly more boutique routes (i.e. those other than MEL/SYD to LAX).

That will be a whole new paradigm because eventually......one day....SIA wil join the route. Best for all 3 Australian carriers (QF, JQ and VA) to have their acts together when that day comes.

[pylet]

You're telling me that if it (QF) was your airline you wouldn't adjust fares to represent market announcements? I mean, if Qantas said it would reduce fares on a common V route, you don't think V would bring their's down as well? Seriously....I could explain this principle to 3rd graders!

I have never doubted that V wouldn't get off the ground (unlike many on this thread). All I'm saying is please look at the bigger picture before you start accusing it's competitors of things that V themselves would do if the tables were reversed.

Also, I don't know if you and your supporters on this thread are V employees (I would imagine a few would be), but lets wait until V have settled in for a year or two before singing them much praise. As it stands at the moment, you've got:

average working conditions (shiney new 777's, after a few trans-pacific's, will lose their wow factor pretty fast)
delayed aircraft
the desire to delay further aircraft delivery
the worst economic and social environment to launch in (as admitted by V itself)
serious major airline competition and the same product as everyone else (in-flight bar, in-seat IFE, lay-flat business seats, premium economy etc....all been done before!)
a forecast of losses for years
average share priceBUT: 'ROCKSTAR' treatment - (can anyone tell me what that is?)

No too much to sing and dance about atm. Give it time, and we shall see. Have fun at the aircraft arrival......

[topend3]

No too much to sing and dance about atm

with the "rockstar treatment" on board there will be plenty to sing and dance about...

[farrari]

787 who told you about Mel -Lax, that's a secret, soon you will tell them about SYD-ORD and SYD-CDG

[Shlonghaul]

MEL-LAX a secret?.......Not anymore!! :E

From Ninemsn

Branson launches V Australia fleet

Sat Feb 7 2009

By Peter Mitchell

British billionaire and showman Richard Branson has declared war on Qantas and other rival airlines with the launch of his new fleet of V Australia passenger jets to fly the Australia-US route.

The Virgin boss used a press conference in Los Angeles on Friday to announce two new routes for the airline on top of the already revealed Sydney-LA and Brisbane-LA legs.

V Australia will fly between Melbourne and LA from September and a Sydney to Johannesburg route on a date yet to be set.

Branson, never one to shy away from creating a media spectacle, braved wind and rain to walk out on the wing of a new V Australia Boeing 777-300ER jet with Australian celebrities Julian McMahon, Jason Clarke, Holly Valance and Kimberley Joseph.

He then popped a bottle of champagne, spraying it on the celebrities and the Los Angeles international airport tarmac below.

"Recession?" Branson, wearing an Akubra, asked.

"What recession?

"The way to get out of recessions is try to expand out of recessions and create more jobs, bring airfares down and try to offer better quality of products."

V Australia will begin its Sydney-LA flights on February 27 and Brisbane-LA on April 8.

Qantas and United Airlines dominated the Australia-US route in recent years but V Australia and US airline giant, Delta, plan to challenge.

Airfares on the route have been slashed as each airline attempts to grab or maintain market share.

V Australia general manager Brett Godfrey said his airline was offering $A1,100 all inclusive return fares for Australians travelling to the US.

Godfrey said he expected Qantas and other competitors to slash their prices again.

"They will continue to try to undercut us," Godfrey said.

"There will be a fare war.

"Consumers are going to be the beneficiary."

Branson said the public can expect rock bottom fares if there were vacant seats on a V Australia plane prior to takeoff.

"We will never go out with an empty seat so if we have an empty seat we will slash the fare," Branson said.

The new flights to Melbourne, starting from September, will see V Australia provide an extra 1,080 seats for visitors each week, Victorian Industry and Trade Minister Martin Pakula said from the Melbourne Airport on Saturday.

"That will secure more jobs for the Victorian tourism industry as tourists and business people spend their money at hotels, restaurants and tourist facilities," he said.

He said Victorians would also welcome the opportunity to catch a direct flight to Los Angeles.

"It's very important to have direct flights. It provided great flexibility for tourists, particularly Victorians travelling to LA not needing to have to hub through Sydney," he said.

Melbourne Airport CEO Chris Woodruff said he was delighted with the announcement.

"Melbourne has the market opportunities airlines look for - we are continuing to grow even in the economic downturn, we have kept our costs down and we are continuing to invest in new capacity and the Virgin group has obviously found this very attractive," Mr Woodruff said.

[dizzylizzy]

ROCKSTAR TREATMENT = turning off all the reading lights and handing out usb ones instead, what a headache.

[mavrik1]

SIA sub engineering company to handle the A/C at Aus airports. Drop in to mel 18th of this month to say hello! Whole op smells SQ driven. Who owns the A/C. Nice to see the aus flag plastered all over it! Should sell well for the aussies. More cash in SQ hands.

[maui]

I guess the game is up. I understand someone is on to the source of the petro-dollars now. The secrecy is all unravelling now. Bugga.