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airship
24th May 2008, 23:49
(Or why I'm very grateful that I live in an 'older-European' nation today.)

You need only to consider what's been going on recently in South Africa (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7417590.stm) to realise what a safe-haven other places truly represent in spite of what anyone may say. Take Europe. About 60 - 70 years ago, this place was absolute hell if you were Jewish for example. There have been a few hiccups along the way, what went on in the Balkans for instance. But in the main, minorities have found succour, if not always a particularly warm welcome, whether they were Ugandan asians or (the list is endless)...

In spite of the 'fore-bodings' of various politicians and their "rivers of blood", it has not happened here. Yet, everyday, there are numerous people who express their animosity relatively freely towards immigrants, accusing them of being scroungers, stealing their jobs or lowering their pay (even here in these forums).

Why, are most people in Europe content to express even their most perverse sentiments mostly non-violently in the past half-century to 2008, whilst southern Africans have apparently lost all self-control...? It must be strange to a lot of people here, who couldn't tell any difference between a Zimbabwean, Mozambican or a South African, to know that they can, do and are, extracting their vengeances at this time. :sad:

I'm very glad that I don't live there.

chuks
25th May 2008, 06:27
For one thing, ever heard of "vendetta"? It's something they still do in places such as Sicily, not a million miles removed from what they do in Africa even if it's not such a common thing today.

An oil company gave some surplus pipe to a village in Nigeria. You know, "Here, maybe they can use this or sell it off down the market." Whatever, it was not worth a lot of money anyway so that it was just a small gesture.

The neighbour village went to war over this because where was THEIR share! I don't mean "angry letters in the village newspaper" but "war," people being killed, houses being burnt... all over some lousy, worn-out pipes.

There's a sort of tattered African social fabric that holds, sort of, within a village but the next village is the enemy. You can go up the scale with this to the national level but the same dynamic holds, outsiders are rivals for whatever meagre resources there are when times are hard.

Wealthy Europe generally has much more to go around but outsiders are still targeted there. It is just that actions are much more limited. In Europe you might have to put up with a dirty look on the street where in Africa you might have to put up with being doused in burning petrol, basically just for being an outsider. People are lousy to other people when they feel the need to be that way and it is allowed; it is just a question of degree.

BBE777
25th May 2008, 11:52
hum... I think Im with mr chuks...

Is it this a matter of << cultures others than "mine" (very ahead of technology (which means "being developed")) are not "good" >> ?????
I do not think so!

each culture manage it's values....

I agree when you say "barbarism in the 21st century" but what I mean by saying this, is that the method changes it is not (just) slaves, but is more than that... let's say that is a more "legal way of barbarism" (well... while ago it was legal as well having slaves...)

barbarism has always existed, and unfortunatelly always will.... (hopefully I'm wrong, but...)

........ hum... would an african be ignorant if she/he cant make the difference between a french and a german????or an american (and I mean the whole continet) who cant make the difference between a chinese and a person from Mongolia (sorry for that) ...............

Blacksheep
25th May 2008, 12:59
Whatever may be going on in Africa today is as nothing compared to what we supposedly civilised Europeans inflicted upon the world a short seventy years ago. Twice in the twentieth century - which wasn't that long ago - we slaughtered ourselves by the million for reasons no better than those driving events in southern Africa today.

Its too easy to pat ourselves on the back for being so advanced and civilised while dismissing events in the Balkans as an anomaly, but remember that WW1 was triggered by apparently local events in Sarajevo.

Wiley
25th May 2008, 13:26
I think the events in New Orleans immediately post Katrina should convince all but the most optimistic person that the veneer of civilisation in the advanced nations is wafer thin, particularly since the reins religion once imposed on societies has retreated to the point of being non existent for most men in the street.

Imagine, if you will, that fuel gets so expensive - or scarce - and food prices in the West get so out of hand that the supermarket shelves in London, New York and Sydney resemble those of Harare today.

If there's anyone out there who doesn't think that home invasions to empty wiser people's (some might say "hoarders'") larders won't become the order of the day, you lack imagination.

And in two of those advanced Western societies I mentioned above, the governments have effectively disarmed the population - or at least the law-abiding section of the population.

I believe it could get very, very ugly, and unless policing becomes something it certainly isn't today, particularly in the UK - a FORCE rather than a SERVICE, we could find ourselves in a state very close to anarchy.

tony draper
25th May 2008, 13:31
Just watched a David Attenbourg thing about Chimps in the wild,one group impinges on the territory of another,they are chased, one member is captured swiftly killed butchered and eaten on the spot,all same, we are just monkeys in designer sunglasses.
:cool:

BBE777
25th May 2008, 14:04
all same, we are just monkeys in designer sunglasses.

hehehe yes we are indeed....

we are going to be the sadest beings steping this earth.... auto-destruction....:ugh:

what I forgot:

believe it could get very, very ugly, and unless policing becomes something it certainly isn't today, particularly in the UK - a FORCE rather than a SERVICE, we could find ourselves in a state very close to anarchy

aren't we already there? I mean, "free" countries like some in Europe you do have the right to do what ever you want as long as you follow certain values, now, who dictates such values?

corsair
25th May 2008, 14:15
'Monkeys in designer sunglasses' That's a keeper. There is indeed only a very thin veneer of civilisation. The fact that there is one at all is only due the efforts of a lot of decent people to keep the monkeys in check. But every now and then the mask slips. Take any Saturday night with a bit of drink taken and the monkeys go ape.

We are lucky in Europe that we have civilised ourselves sufficiently to prevent the worst excesses. We learned the hard lessons though. Not every country has yet. Some parts of the world show no signs of ever leaving their tribal instincts aside.

BBE777
25th May 2008, 14:20
so...
evreyone in this world should be "as civilized as europe"????

OMG, that is realy cruel!!!!
and a bit sad from my point of view...

I like the word MULTICULTURAL!:ok:

arcniz
25th May 2008, 21:20
Well, it's really tribalism to which we regress when things go sticky, isn't it?

Some 25,000 years are invested in the effort to grow humanity beyond tribal units, with progress spectacular, but clearly reversible at the local level on short notice.

Nation-states are really super-tribes that encompass all, impose additional layers of rule and order that transcend the locality of any and all sub-tribes. When nation states and Inter-nation states are large enough and stable enough to be beyond significant effect from local wars and squabbles, they are able to retain and apply the military and other suasive resources necessary to eventually force errant misbehaving tribes back into compliance with the broader rules of order.

Only a full-scale nuclear slugfest -- or a broad-scale depopulation - say 70% of humanity in a year's time by something like bird-flu or an Andromeda strain variant - is likely to totally undermine the order we have cobbled together now.

Still is vastly safer for most of us to stand together naked in the agora with millions or billions of persons, many of whom may be unhappy and hungry, than to stand separate in the dark woods, alone except for a few bullies carrying sticks.

airship
25th May 2008, 21:35
Drapes' "monkeys in designer sunglasses" captures the essence. That's quite frightening when you think about it. I guess that our best guarantee is ensuring that the police / army and their families are always well-paid and have food on the table, if the rest of us are to stand a chance...?!

arcniz
25th May 2008, 21:47
Mind you, when possible, I live in the woods.

Brian Abraham
26th May 2008, 05:28
Mr. Drapes you certainly have a turn of phrase and as usual on the money. Was touring an ancient relic in a western country (well Rome actually) and inquired of a native as to how said relic was constructed. Slave labour was the answer, just like we in the west still do today. When you think of how our standard of living is premised on the willingness of the third world to work for a pittance he wasn't far wrong. And we console ourselves by the thought that we are helping to lift them out of poverty. Bollox. We want what we want at the cheapest damn price possible, and free if we can get away with it.

BBE777
26th May 2008, 08:57
sad but true

arcniz
26th May 2008, 09:11
We want what we want at the cheapest damn price possible, and free if we can get away with it.

Buying manufactures from the 3rd world is certainly not ALL exploitation. For them to be robust and durable, economies in such places must evolve organically. There's no-way to ship in a freeze-dried 1st world economy to a 3rd world place, pour some sugar water into it, and have it work.

Unless you believe that centrally managed economies in the Soviet mold are a practical solution, the challenge is to teach enterprises in W3 to engage and to compete with the big folks as soon and as actively as possible. Creating demand for their output surely SEEMS like a rational way to accomplish this, n'est ce pas?

airship
26th May 2008, 15:45
Is there any evidence of any civilisation, anywhere, in the past few millenia (most recent examples have still to pass the test of time IMHO - S. Africa is failing...), that welcomed and/or assimilated but most importantly, protected their new guests or immigrants from backlashes? :confused:

Only, it might be of interest to say, Sanjay, a software specialist who hopes to come and work in Europe under the most recent legislation. Will it be the lack of genuine onion baajis or chapattis that determine his happiness or should he ask for a pay rise in order to compensate for the greater risks associated with working away from home...? :uhoh:

sitigeltfel
26th May 2008, 15:48
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/sitigeltfel/Romeafrica.jpg

BBE777
26th May 2008, 20:16
we should guess now what you are trying to say huh... that means we have to think... NOOOOOOOO:ugh:
hehe...

lets see... is this... that slaves now in africa can't do what slaves menaged to do 2000 years ago??
hummm...

I do believe that the "northern civilized" thoughts of "having the biggest is having the best" have always existed and the go further... while "southern tribes" have always though and keep thinking that the oldest in the village has the power simply because knows more because has more experience...

so... whats the difference?

tony draper
26th May 2008, 21:50
Well as has been mooted in recent times, six and a half billion talking monkeys is probably about six billion talking monkeys to many,there int enough bananas to go round folks, and there never will be, now how do we persuade six billion of them to take the black pill and vacate the premises,hmmm tiz a bit of a problem.
:uhoh:

BBE777
26th May 2008, 22:08
:confused:
i think i didnt quite understood that.... at least I hope so :rolleyes:


is this that the world's biggest problem is that is overpopulated?

nah... this cant be what you are saying.......

is it:confused:????

tony draper
26th May 2008, 22:52
Indeed Mr BB, we long ago passed the number the four horsemen seem to be able keep up with.
:E

CarltonBrowne the FO
26th May 2008, 22:53
Monkey?
Ook!
Read some Pratchett and you will understand...

tony draper
26th May 2008, 22:58
Run yer peepers over this Mr BB.

World Population 1804, 1 billion
Population 1927 2 billion----- 123 years
Population 1960 3 billion-------33 years
Population 1974 4 billion-------14 years
population 1987 5 billion-------13 years
Population 1999 6 billion-------12 years

One does not need to be in Wernher von Braun's trade.
:uhoh:

BBE777
26th May 2008, 23:00
heeeeeeeeey!!!!!

MRS! BBE

:cool:

OnePercenter
26th May 2008, 23:01
sitigeltfel +1 That pretty much illustrates that some cultures don't evolve, but more importantly, even in light of all thier problems, they resist it. I think as long as concepts of nationalisn, cultural divisions, religions that preach a division between 'us and them'...conflict will arise. One one hand I find humanity at it's best, on the other, I think many people need to be spanked like a three year old at Walmart.

BBE777
26th May 2008, 23:03
so... why do you think it has increased...

hum... do we need to send more t.v.'s to the jungle so people is entretained and stop overloading the place...

:eek::eek::eek:!!

naaaaaaaaah...
this can't be what ya saying....:ugh:

:=

tony draper
26th May 2008, 23:03
Apologies Madam BB. :\ :)

BBE777
26th May 2008, 23:05
apologies accepted MR Tee

:)

BBE777
27th May 2008, 08:51
so... why do you think it has increased...

hum... do we need to send more t.v.'s to the jungle so people is entretained and stop overloading the place...

:eek::eek::eek:!!

naaaaaaaaah...
this can't be what ya saying....:ugh:

:=

:rolleyes:

Dan D'air
27th May 2008, 13:50
Barbarism in the 21st Century...

It definitely needs sorting out. It cost me £17.50 at the Barbers last week. That's disgraceful in this day and age.

frostbite
27th May 2008, 14:39
I'm disappointed. I thought it said Barbarella in the 21st Century.

tony draper
27th May 2008, 14:55
Err we don't mention that lady on aviation fora, just isn't done old boy.:rolleyes:

BBE777
27th May 2008, 15:13
It definitely needs sorting out. It cost me £17.50 at the Barbers last week. That's disgraceful in this day and age.


this is just unacceptable:=

are you ill?????????:eek: hehehe

Track Coastal
27th May 2008, 15:15
A picture of an African VILLAGE and a villa in a Roman CITY isn't a fair comparison.

Harare (home to one of the most barbaric buggers around)
http://www.soroptimist-gbi.org/images/clubs/site/271-harare.jpg

OR Tambo Airport, Joburg
http://www.southafrica.info/cm_pics/plan_trip/693-1830-2688-0_232649.jpg


...anyway on with the show.

Effluent Man
27th May 2008, 15:21
Barbarella! Memories of a misspent youth.

Solid Rust Twotter
27th May 2008, 15:25
Sure those pics are not photoshopped, Mr Coastal? Both appear to have electrical power.:E


SA must be the only country on the planet where even the illegal immigrants are leaving because of the high levels of violent crime.:(

Brian Abraham
28th May 2008, 05:03
Well as has been mooted in recent times, six and a half billion talking monkeys is probably about six billion talking monkeys to many,there int enough bananas to go round folks, and there never will be, now how do we persuade six billion of them to take the black pill and vacate the premises,hmmm tiz a bit of a problem.
Mr. D. Are you a leader or a follower? Remember Jamestown? :p

Beatriz Fontana
28th May 2008, 06:33
Barbarism in the 21st Century...

Barbarism in the 20th Century, certainly. Barbara was quite vocal when her hubby George Bush Snr was in power. She might still have a word to say to her son now and again I suppose... :E

Metro man
28th May 2008, 06:35
A picture of an African VILLAGE and a villa in a Roman CITY isn't a fair comparison.


It is, these are examples of what the people were able to do on their own.

Most of the buildings in the picture of Harare were made by white Rhodesians before independence, those that weren't are largely down to Yugoslav or Chinese construction companies. Look at the state of the Zimbabwe economy for a more typical example of what the locals can do.

OR Tambo Airport is simply a name change from Jan Smuts Airport, which was in existance for many years before the ANC came to power. White South Africa managed to build an excellent infrastructure on it's own.

BBE777
28th May 2008, 06:58
oh! back to what the thread was suppouse to be :hmm:

and agree

Gainesy
28th May 2008, 09:01
Mother Nature will eventually sort out the over population, either by famine, disease or warfare over dwindling assets. I believe that all three are natural safety valves.

BBE777
28th May 2008, 10:11
:eek:

oh man! that is not nice at all.....
because usually those things happen in poor countries....
so, why poor people should die??????? because they are the reason of overpopullation????.....
the problem is not the overpopullation!

the barbarism in this century is the unequal division of wealth in the world!

tony draper
28th May 2008, 10:16
It's just evolution in action Madam BB.
Tiz not the quality of yer genes that counts now tiz the thickness of yer wallet.
:)

BBE777
28th May 2008, 10:42
:{

Im noone in this world!!!!! Oh mee oh myy I think Im gonna die!!!

(hum... and if I freeze myself till robots eat all the humans...the I will be GOD!!!!!:E)

Mr Tee... I think Im gonna cry!

Brian Abraham
28th May 2008, 10:42
the barbarism in this century is the unequal division of wealth in the world
Beg to differ BB. Look at Nigeria as a simple example. Riches beyond belief, only its benefits don't flow to the community, only those in power. Then again, when I look at your quote it still applies doesn't it (unequal division of wealth)? The ethos is me, me, me, me, me and **** you.

BBE777
28th May 2008, 10:49
only its benefits don't flow to the community

Isn't this an uneven situation????

tony draper
28th May 2008, 11:21
Tiz the way of us Talking Monkeys,once we have full bellies and look forward to having full bellies on a regular basis,we conclude that a full belly int enough, we now want trinkets as well ,shiny things, a bigger posher tree to live in,rare bananas from exotic locations,bespoke loincloths ect ect.
Not our fault,tiz just the way we is programmed,"**** those poor monkeys in that tree over there,they's not of my clan,I wants me shiny things"
:rolleyes:

ORAC
28th May 2008, 11:35
so, why poor people should die??????? because they are the reason of overpopullation????.....the problem is not the overpopullation!
From producers to consumers: how rice farmers face catastrophe (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/28/food.philippines2)

......Thirteen years ago, when Tayaban started tilling the paddies, he had two fields and two mouths to feed. Today he has no more land, but six children. The producer has had to become a consumer. That was not a problem when grain was cheap. But in the past year, global prices have tripled.......

But it has been many years since the area was self-sufficient. The main problem is population growth. The average couple here has five or six children. Tayaban is one of eight siblings as well as being a father of three sons and three daughters. Despite migration to the cities, Banaue's population is steadily rising. Fifteen years ago it was 18,000. Today it is 21,500.

But the amount of land is fixed and yield increases are limited because it is difficult to harvest more than one crop per year in this high-altitude environment.Tayaban's two fields yield 150kg of rice per year, enough to last the family just six weeks. It is a similar story throughout Banaue, where local officials say the average family produces barely enough rice to last half a year.

The same problem of demand exceeding supply applies to the country. The Philippines is the world's biggest importer of rice. It expects to ship in 2.7m tonnes this year, almost 10% of the total needed to feed a population of 91 million that is growing annually by more than 2%, one of the fastest rates in the world. Large tenders by the Philippines on the international market helped drive up rice prices by 76% between December 2007 and April 2008, according to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation......

The reasons for the global food crisis are manifold, including rising consumption in fast-developing nations like China and India, droughts in Australia, the rising cost of oil, and the increasing use of crops for fuel. But more than any of these, in the Philippines the pressures are demographic. "At the end of the day, it is about the huge population more than biofuels or climate change," says Duncan Macintosh of the Philippine Rice Research Institute......

BBE777
28th May 2008, 11:38
where's the....where's the....... where's the...... WHERE'S THE.....
WHERE'S THE CHIP?...WHERE'S THE CHIP..?????? WHERE'S THE FEKIN' CHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPP???
NEED TO FIND IT...NEED TO FIND IT NOOOOOOWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:

gonna kill ya mophocah!!!!!!! kill the chip!!!!!!:mad:


--

Mr Tee... I would think that that's the exact the reason of existing schools.. and I dont mean just the buildings that were created at the same time as jails... but others like home.

I will let you join my clan :hmm:

tony draper
28th May 2008, 11:47
I want no part of a clan,I'm a lone silverback alpha male sitting in me tree contentedly tittering to meself over the foolishness of the new generation of apes watching them picking nits of each other and grunting nonsense on the ground beneath me.
After all, I have enough bananas and lots of shiny things.:E

BBE777
28th May 2008, 12:00
oh... now i know....is you the one watching me and throwing the banana skin in my head... i see... but remember.. anytime i can bit by bit bite the trunk:hmm:.....


and I have to disagree with you orac... there's enoguh for EVERYBODY!
When I can get some info in english I let you know...

tony draper
28th May 2008, 12:14
There might be enough, for a while anyway, if all six billion of us including we folks with all the trinkets reject our exotic bananas and settled for a bowl of rice a day,can't see that happening can you?
:uhoh:

BBE777
28th May 2008, 12:29
global prices have tripled.......
But it has been many years since the area was self-sufficient.
demand exceeding supply
global food crisis

Since we “civilized” we’ve been destroying nature for the capital benefits as it can be building big cities which consume a large amount of energy which means that to supply that energy you will have to use nature and every time we isolate those who cant afford living in big cities…
Of course the area is not self-sufficient! Is now where all the big building are built!!
----
it's true what you are saying Mr Tee, is not happening that we just give up all we have, but yet is not us manageing the big pots of money going into the industrial sector such us guns and technology that we dont really need.
Im not saying that what we've created is all bad, you can take internet, the best invention ever, but yet again, we all dont have the opportunity to get acces... now, money for 1 bullet can help internet access in a family that cant afford it...

Effluent Man
28th May 2008, 12:43
I can second that about Nigeria being rich.Almost everyday when I turn on the PC there is a mail from some resident of that place who wants to give me $8.5million.

BBE777
28th May 2008, 12:50
well...and I wonder why there's lots of nigerian inmigrants..... big fishes are evreywere... if there's big fishes in Uk or France or Colombia, why wouldn't there be nigerians big fishes?

tony draper
28th May 2008, 13:47
Oh believe me Madam BB, we need the guns, yes siree, we sure is gonna need those guns.
:E

BBE777
28th May 2008, 14:22
:( ya not gonna kill me are ya??


but now you say it.... hummm may be is usful sometimes:E...

I guess we will be water and oil forever Mr Tee...:ouch:

ehehehehe

Beatriz Fontana
28th May 2008, 16:34
Forgive me folks, for I have spent all day in the office perusing over the world's distresses (reading the world's media in other words) and I have to say as my first degree is in international politics and globalization:

BBE777.... What planet are you on? Long live lively debate but really, girl, get a grip!

Drapes, as ever, I tip my hat to you the godfather of pprune. :cool:

vee-tail-1
28th May 2008, 17:05
Down here in darkest west wales quite a few out of town monkeys have thrown away their designer sunglasses and joined us local apes in growing our own bananas. Guess we might need some big sticks to deal with starving gorillas in the hard times to come. :hmm:

arcniz
28th May 2008, 17:19
Haircut... It cost me £17.50 at the Barbers last week. That's disgraceful in this day and age.

Clearly we should be importing them!

BBE777
28th May 2008, 17:28
BBE777.... What planet are you on? Long live lively debate but really, girl, get a grip!


Have I offended you? If I have, Im sorry and If I have not, then let me tell you that the debate here is about "barbarism XXI cent." so you dont have to go on personal stuff...

Beatriz Fontana
28th May 2008, 19:35
BBE777,

The last thing I get is offended, maybe something has been lost in translation! Suffice to say that I merely find your perception of world affairs way off the mark. But hey, that's the nature of Jet Blast and, indeed, political debate. Long may it continue! If we can't agree to disagree then there would be no progress and the world would be a dull place.

And I disagree that I got on the "personal stuff". How could I? All I can go on is the quality of the postings :bored:

Barbarism is, after all, "cruelty" and an "uncivilised state". Is entrepeneurialism not civilised? Is wanting to make money to better oneself not civilised? The world has been at it for years! Barbarism is also derived from Barbarian, which is, according to the Oxford dictionary, "a member of a people not belonging to the Greek, Roman or Christian civilisations".

Oops, back to religion. I hear the can of worms opening...

BBE777
28th May 2008, 20:28
as I said before to another ppruner:
I guess we will be oil and water....
but that shouldn't be a problem, at the end, that's why the debate is to share views not attaking.
don't you find interesting the fact that we don't agree? Otherwise the world would be boring,don't you think?
:ok:

BBE777
28th May 2008, 20:40
I dont think barbarism is uncivilized... and i dont remember saying that wanting more money was not civilized..
my point is:
we are making money at the expense of others (others that are loosing more than what we can get), which is not fair, and what I find part of barbarism...

Beatriz Fontana
28th May 2008, 21:11
Wait up one second, BBE777. I do not attack. I debate.

All I'm doing is responding to your opinion which is what we are here to do when we open ourselves up by airing our views on a forum. If you think this is an attack, you're in the wrong place. Certainly Jet Blast is the wrong place to hang out!

My final response to this is that barbarism has definitions, and uncivilised is one of them. Thereby referring to a state of play as barbaric is to, by definition, refer to it as uncivilised. I was comparing the dictionary definition to those of your views, BBE777. A perception of unfairness (because one person's unfairness is another's fairness) and barbarism are poles apart. Again, if this is lost in translation then that's something debating folks have to get used to.

BBE777
28th May 2008, 21:39
my mistake, didnt mean to say you were attaking me... I just meant in general but anyway...

and can I ask you something? are you a pilot?Im just wondering, and I dont mean anything.

VAFFPAX
28th May 2008, 22:45
What happened in South Africa was not barbaric. It was African.

It's the same as what has happened in Rwanda, in Sudan, in Somalia, in DRC, in Zimbabwe, Moçambique, Angola...

What many Westerners fail to understand is that the African people play to their own rules. Do keep in mind that Western 'civilisation' didn't make it to Africa before the 1400's and 1500's (in the case of South Africa, 1652).

Do you really think you'll be able to turn around in 350 years what took millennia in Europe and Asia? Remember that in Asia they've also slaughtered each other under the eye-for-an-eye principle for quite a few centuries.

Of course us Europeans are aghast because we expected the civilisation that's been around for three hundred years to last a little longer, but inevitably, the different tribes will continue to run along tribal lines. The Xhosa inevitably vote ANC, the Kwa-Zulu vote IFP. The Shangaan on either side of the Limpopo are still the Shangaan, whether some of them are South African and the others are Zimbabwean or even Moçambican, or not. They speak a different language, and that alone is enough for the mob to scream "foreigners out".

But from what I know from the ground (I have many contacts in Africa still), there is a lot of shock on all sides... shock from those in the townships who didn't think it would go this far, shock from those in charge who thought it would die quickly and be a local problem, shock from those who believe in this fictional thing called the Rainbow Nation, and of course shock from those who fled Zimbabwe for a better life, only to be chased away for wanting a little bit of a better life than what they have in Zimbabwe.

Those who argued about the semantics between Harare and Johannesburg, and the Romans and the Africans, forget that Zimbabwe until the eighties and early nineties was a thriving African country, that their mining and agricultural sectors were huge money spinners. It was not just Ian Smith and his predecessors who built those buildings, but also black people who made good money out of what they had.

It only went south when Mugabe insisted on forced land repatriation without giving those who got the land the tools to do it with (what? learn from the white farmer? Never! NEVER!).

OR Tambo (previously Johannesburg Intl, and before that Jan Smuts) got its first proper makeover in the nineties, AFTER the ANC government took over. That they still had a good many white managers in charge is irrelevant. It was largely required by those who realised that a modern look and feel would make Johannesburg an enticing target for investment.

As for the Roman buildings and the African huts - Egypt rose and fell, Rome rose and fell, the Matabele rose and fell. There is not much left of the Matabele kingdom (mostly north-eastern South Africa and Southern Zimbabwe), because in most cases the building material was recycled. The same's occurred in some instances with the Roman structures, but generally as one culture fell, another one rose in its place and kept the old structures.

We as Westerners have been much more destructive in proportion with our fire power than the African people have. Why bomb a place (let's take Dresden) to bits when you could keep the buildings and simply drive the enemy out? That's what inevitably happens in Africa (but not since they got guns and cannons).

Anyway... rant over. It is painful to see what's happening to a country I called home for a decade, but I know historically that this was inevitable.

S.

Brian Abraham
29th May 2008, 10:58
Tis interesting when one looks up the definition of barbarism, barbarity, barbarous, civilisation and civilize. Were the Japanese civilised at Nanking, the German concentration camps and conduct on the Eastern front, the English slave trade, Lenin and Stalin and Mao in the conduct of domestic politics. Not much civilisation there for me.

tony draper
29th May 2008, 11:06
As far as I know the term "Civilised" just means "living in cities",it is possible therefore to live in a brick house wi a tile roof electricity running water and your bog connected to a sewer alongside tens of thousands of other folk similarly housed ,and still be a very naughty person.
:)

Tricky Woo
29th May 2008, 11:07
I devoted many years of my life to exactly that sort of civilised naughtiness.

TW

tony draper
29th May 2008, 11:09
Did yer manage to get yer bog connected to the sewer yet Mr Woo?
Not an easy task on the side of a Alp.
:rolleyes:

Tricky Woo
29th May 2008, 11:30
One has a sloping Alpine sewer, Herr D.

Takes some getting used to, I must say. But then again the slope remains constant, which I've been led to understand is not the case with yer salt water sewers.

Hmm, seem to remember them sea bogs have a special nautical name. Perhaps you could so good as to...

TW

tony draper
29th May 2008, 11:51
Indeed one's morning movement could be very hazardous when the Ogan cut up rough,one was very likely to get one's aft nether region a good soaking in very cold salt water,hmmm, thinking about it folks these days pay good money to have a device installed in their water closets that does summat along the same lines.
:uhoh::)
The facilities were called "Heads" on board ships for some reason one cannot fathom Mr Woo,surely a more apt noun would have been "Bums" although one has seen a few first trippers with their heads down the head when she was going up and down by the head.
:)

Solid Rust Twotter
29th May 2008, 13:17
The use of "heads" is from the old days when one would crawl up the bowsprit near the head of the ship and do the necessary over a net suspended there to prevent one joining one's floaters in the oggin.

SA has around 18000 murders a year, countless rapes and too many assaults and robberies to mention, many of them not even reported as it would be a complete waste of time doing so with the next to useless police in the country. Around 40 or so white farmers were killed during the Mau-Mau rebellion in Kenya which led to great consternation and mobilisation of troops. We have had around 1200 white farmers murdered in SA with barely a peep from the authorities except to deny there's a pattern and shrug their shoulders when another one happens.

Meanwhile the police refuse to release accurate statistics and assure the public there is nothing to worry about as they have everything under control. No doubt they feel quite safe in their police stations protected by private security firms paid for by the taxpayer, the same folks who expect a bit of security for the taxes paid as well. Fat chance of that happening.

Our non resident president ignores reality and carries on with his travels and jaunts overseas while denying there's a problem. The 2010 FWC is going to be an embarrassing circus at this rate yet Blatter continues to plug holes in the dyke and play along with the myth that all is well as the infrastructure in SA degrades further into that of a third world basket case.

Crisis? What crisis?

frostbite
29th May 2008, 14:46
"Our non resident president ignores reality and carries on with his travels and jaunts overseas while denying there's a problem."


We had a PM like that!

Come to think of it, we still have.

Effluent Man
29th May 2008, 14:51
Mr.Drapes,In the Good Soldier Scweik by Jaroslav Hasek, set in the early 20th Century the bogs are referred to as "The rears".

airship
29th May 2008, 16:20
Many thanks to VAFFPAX for his post and endeavour to bring this thread back onto subject...?! I'd disagree about it being an exclusively 'African' phenomenon though. What went on in ex. Yugoslavia happenned in the '90s...

We might also broach the subject of the recent cyclone in Myanmar, and whether or not it was barbaric that the military junta apparently refused the aid that was available (if a little late) and lying just offshore, aboard all those US, UK and French military vessels...?!

PS. I would agree that it's pretty barbaric for barbers anywhere, even in France, to charge €25 for a haircut for someone who could almost count his remaining hairs. I also believe that the hairwash would be more efficient after the cutting, instead of just before. But that's only my opinion. And what do I know...zilch?! :(

Beatriz Fontana
29th May 2008, 18:58
airship,

Once again, sense returns with your posting!

I have been wondered what the monkeys in Gibraltar think about all this :)


(£40 for a haircut in London last time.... I'm growing it long out of protest!)

VAFFPAX
29th May 2008, 20:43
Solid Rust Twotter, you can be guaranteed that if the situation in South Africa goes south any further by later 2009, Sepp Blatter will take FWC 2010 elsewhere.

Blatter made it clear that FIFA has a Plan B in case Seffrika can't put it together, although Mbeki bleated around a lot saying that FIFA would definitely come to South Africa because South Africa would be ready. We'll see.

airship, the reason why I specifically pointed out that this is the way Africa is, is because everyone acts so surprised when Africa does what she has always done... do things her own way. In the way the same applies to Myanmar, because we and the French were there.

And when the Balkans go insane, we're shocked too, because there it's again the same thing - Tribal boundaries.

Beatriz, I hear ya on the haircut. I had a fantastic hair stylist in Leamington Spa who did unisex hair for a tenner or two. Sadly she sold her salon and emigrated... Now I have to make do with ex-college students for a tenner.

S.

Solid Rust Twotter
29th May 2008, 21:06
No doubt. Unfortunately it won't solve the immediate problem of high levels of violent crime and a govt that just doesn't care and in fact condones it by their total lack of action.