View Full Version : US car dealer in free gun offer

23rd May 2008, 13:57
Americans :p;)


A car dealership in the United States is offering a free handgun with every vehicle sold.
Max Motors in Butler, Missouri, says sales have quadrupled since the start of the offer.
Customers can choose between a gun or a $250 (£125) gas card, but most so far have chosen the gun.
Owner Mark Muller said: "We're just damn glad to live in a free country where you can have a gun if you want to."
The dealership sells new and old vehicles, including General Motors and Ford cars and trucks, and its logo shows a cowboy holding a pistol.
It has sold more than 30 cars and trucks in the past three days, an increase which the owners put down to their promotional offer.
Inspiration from Obama
Mr Muller said that every buyer so far "except one guy from Canada and one old guy" chose the gun, rather than the gas card.
He recommends a Kel-Tec .380 pistol, which he describes as "a nice little handgun that fits in your pocket".
He added that the promotion was inspired by recent comments from one of the Democratic nominees for the presidential election, saying: "We did it because of Barack Obama.
"He said all those people in the Midwest, you've got to have compassion for them because they're clinging to their guns and their Bibles. I found that quite offensive. We all go to church on Sunday and we all carry guns." The website advertisement for the offer, which continues until the end of the month, mentions that an approved background check on gun ownership is required.

23rd May 2008, 14:11
Oh wow. Batten down the hatches for incoming.

23rd May 2008, 15:08


23rd May 2008, 15:15
Makes a lot of sense to me... Probably a GM dealership, so the gun is useful to put the useless piece of crap you just bought out of it's misery at the first occasion.

23rd May 2008, 16:14
Please allow me to take issue, Mr. MD, I'm a GM customer.

I have three cars in my driveway: A 2005 Chevy Aveo for mileage, a 2002 Chevy Venture minivan as my airport car, and a 1999 Pontiac TransAM convertible for fun.

Together I've accumulated 180,000 miles on these cars. Outside of routine maintenance (I change the oil every 3,500 to 4,000 miles) I've spent a total of $850 for repairs, all of it to replace power window motors on the TransAm. That's over eighteen years of driving for my wife and me. I've never had a breakdown or failure of my car to start. I'm quite pleased overall with the performance and economics of owning these cars, and will no doubt buy GM again.

Some of my Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW driving friends have from time to time told me of what I consider to be unbelievably exhorbitant maintenance and repair costs. I have owned two Mercedes and found that, as a rule, any trip to the dealer would cost me at least $500. I won't ever buy another, as I've aged/matured beyond the point where the status of a vehicle is worth the impracticality and cost of repair in owning one.

As I live in the States, parts and service availability for GM cars is ubiquitous. I get a lot more car and features for my money buying domestic, support my local (Detroit) economy, and if the dealer sees fit to offer me a cool pistol in the bargain, I'll just be a happy, happy man behind a great big grin.


23rd May 2008, 17:36


Ha... good one :)

Dr Jekyll
23rd May 2008, 17:38
What exactly is the issue supposed to be?

23rd May 2008, 17:40
He should be giving a bible away along with the gun! :E:E


23rd May 2008, 17:53
He should be giving a bible away along with the gun! :E:E


That's all we need bible bashing, gun slinging americans :} (perfect description of G Bush)

Dan Winterland
23rd May 2008, 17:55
The drive by shooter package!

23rd May 2008, 17:58
That's all we need bible bashing, gun slinging americans (perfect description of G Bush)

Aye, that's exactly what Barak Hussein Obama thinks of those in the Midwest.....:hmm:


23rd May 2008, 18:18
Ummm, "Bible bashing?"

Is that a translation thing?

'Bashing' in the US means insulting/derogatory speech towards said object.

'Thumping' would be the word with correct meaning.

23rd May 2008, 19:01
Yep, another example of being separated by a common language!:}


23rd May 2008, 19:13
I have three cars in my drivewayI used to own cars like that but then I bought a Honda and now I get to go out on the road. :}

Standard Noise
23rd May 2008, 19:47
A free gun with every car. You crazy yanks!


23rd May 2008, 20:29
whether it is bible thumper, beater, basher or whatever. It's just a rude way of referring to one of those fundamentalist preachers with that shouty style. You know, the great, hoarse inhalation and then, "Praaaaise Jeeeesus! Aaaaaamen, brothers!" Well, whatever works for you, I guess.

The problem with the bible might be that the Good Book comes in different flavours. You would expect most of your customers to go for the King James version but there are others, of course. How would you know which ones to stock?

When I was living in Miami I was very interested to learn that 3 out of 4 drivers there went armed, supposedly. I was thinking about buying a gun myself but then I had an even better idea and left town instead! People kept turning up dead there; it was just that kind of place.

The nice thing about a story like this is that it has something for everyone. We Americans can cheer up over a success story, someone who has figured out how to sell American cars when everyone seems to want Toyotas and the sit-down-to-pee Euro brigade can just have their preconceptions confirmed.

If it is any consolation the car is far more likely to kill someone than the gun if numbers are anything to go by!

23rd May 2008, 21:13
Some of my Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW driving friends have from time to time told me of what I consider to be unbelievably exhorbitant maintenance and repair costs.

As my car is out of warranty, I stay away from main dealers for servicing and the cost is very reasonable. My "exhorbitant repair costs", in almost three years, have consisted of two rear light bulbs and a headlight bulb. I replaced them myself. :hmm:

west lakes
23rd May 2008, 21:14
the car is far more likely to kill someone than the gun

Now if the sales offer was one free car with every gun purchased - then is the time to get worried:\

23rd May 2008, 21:41
I really don't see a problem with this except for new gun owners the car dealership should also give them some type of free training certificate with the firearm.
Some gun shops will do this for free when the hand gun is purchased.
Nothing worse than some new in-experienced gun owner having to pull the gun in self defense and being scared to fire it.
This is worse than having no gun at all.
Proper training and respect for guns and when and how to use them is the best way.
This is America, we are allowed to own guns, and this will never change.
Just remember all this gang related shootings are not from ordinary people that own legal firearms.
The average gun owner is a law abiding citizen , works hard and pays his taxes.
for some thug to try and take whats not his may just end up pushing up daisies and rightly so.

23rd May 2008, 21:49
Pay for a car and get a perfectly legal commodity thrown in. If that marketing and P&L approach works in a jurisdiction where the commodity in question is legal - and, crucially, the legality of the commodity is subject to a democratic system of legislatio0n - then, where's the problem????:confused:

Flying Binghi
23rd May 2008, 23:19
Hmmm.... now theres an idea, the car dealers should give a free copy of Grand Theft Auto with every car sold :hmm:

24th May 2008, 00:19
On a Mazda Miata discussion forum, similar to this one, there was a thread entitled "Where do you store your handgun in a Miata?". It went on for several pages with contributions varying from "under the seat", "shoulder holster", "glove compartment" etc. It went quite well, it was informative and amusing. It all ended when a Swede and a Canadian started offering their opinion of disgust and condemnation.
It had to be closed in order to abide by general posting rules. Nobody got banned (the mods have a life there).

So not much is different, just the vehicle that the forum is dedicated to. The rest is the same - Americans love guns. Europeans, Australians, and Canadians look down on them (with a few notable exceptions) in some self righteous way, while secretly admiring and wishing they could do the same at home.

The .44 is loaded and the bulletproof vest is on...

Peter Fanelli
24th May 2008, 00:43
Where do you store your handgun in a Miata

In your purse I guess alongside the mace.:E

24th May 2008, 01:09
The .44 is loaded


"You've gotta ask yourself one question.

Do you feel lucky, punk?

Well? Do ya?"

24th May 2008, 01:17
you know me too well. That's the exact one I have - S&W .44 Magnum.

24th May 2008, 02:42
while secretly admiring and wishing they could do the same at home.

I don't fcuking think so sunshine :rolleyes:

Scooby Don't
24th May 2008, 03:42
It gets tiring to hear people say "I don't believe in guns." I can prove their existence very easily... :E

There's a really simple way to stop people holding such bloody self-righteous anti-gun views. Simply ban the eating of meat by anyone who isn't prepared to actually shoot, gut, skin, joint, cook and eat an animal. Sure, there'll be a few more vegetarians around, as is right and proper. Those who won't shoulder the responsibility of killing an animal have no right to benefit from the death of an animal. And while they're at it, they'd better stop buying leather and cooking with animal fat. The rest of us can then be assured that only the worthy are eating steak.

As for those who say "but guns kill people", two answers to that. Firstly, a gun is an inanimate object. It contains no intrinsic power to do anything, good or bad. If left unattended, the only harm it can cause is if someone trips over it. It can only reflect the values of the person carrying it, as it carries out the wishes of that person. If a person can be trusted to be safe with a car, a knife, an aeroplane or an axe, that same person should be trustworthy with a gun.
Secondly, why should we allow the scumbags who follow no laws to be better armed than those of us who respect the law and the sanctity of human life, so long as we and our loved ones are not threatened?

Edited to add the following.
Law-abiding people buy guns legally. This means that among the law-abiding in New York City, only police officers have handguns. Elsewhere in the US, the law-abiding submit to criminal record checks and waiting periods. In Canada, the law-abiding take the Canadian Firearms Safety Course and must pass a test, or two tests for handgun ownership, before submitting to background checks and eventual licence issue for those who pass.
The scumbags - those who are most likely to misuse firearms - do NOT submit to background checks, waiting periods or safety tests.
Any law which prohibits decent people from ownership of guns inevitably leaves the scumbags better armed! They don't recognise any prohibition.

24th May 2008, 06:21
If allowing reprobates to be well-armed means that you and your loved ones are not threatened then where is the problem? Or do you mean that you want everyone to go about tooled up, scumbags and the righteous alike?

I am a gun owner myself. Last time I wanted something for uninvited guests that was a police-model 12-gauge though, not a sissy handgun that leaves you playing guessing games about how many fartless beans you have loosed off in the general direction of your foe. With the shotgun you can send off a hate message addressed "To Whom It May Concern," rather than trying to get that name right in the heat of the moment.

Well, that was Africa. Nowadays I have a .177 air rifle for target shooting just to keep my hand in down at the gun club. That is a real trip, by the way; we wear uniforms and march in parades behind a brass band.

If you were a Miata driver then I guess you could always fit a hitch and use a small trailer to carry your artillery with you but I just kept mine at home in the bedroom.

The problem is that ambush tactics always favour the attacker so that I do see a place for gun control in an ordered society and never mind that business about a "well-ordered militia" in the U.S. Constitution.

I think the two sides in this one shall never agree. Okay, maybe a few liberals who get tired of being mugged and robbed go out and buy guns but that is about it. Most of them just take crime as part of normal life, paybacks from the underprivileged, I guess.

24th May 2008, 08:52
The irony of course, is that in a place like Butler, MO. You most likely don't even need a gun. Just like in most of America.

It's a clever sales pitch but not unique. Isn't there a bank that gives you gun when you open an account? Last week, he was an obscure gun....sorry car dealer somewhere in Missouri. Now even I've heard of him.

I blame the anti gun lobby. The constant carping about the gun issue just encourages stunts like this.

Yes, this is a new lateral slant on the gun issue. They encourage gun sales. :ok: 'Guns don't kill people, anti gun campaigners kill people.'

Frankly when it comes to guns and Bibles. I find the Bible far more dangerous.

24th May 2008, 10:07
Simply ban the eating of meat by anyone who isn't prepared to actually shoot, gut, skin, joint, cook and eat an animal. Sure, there'll be a few more vegetarians around, as is right and proper. Those who won't shoulder the responsibility of killing an animal have no right to benefit from the death of an animal

Does the same apply to Fish?. Can you imagine millions of people out fishing in the Atlantic every day.

What about the death penalty?. Should everyone (women included), who agree with this practice be forced to administer the injection, or throw the switch at least once in their lifetime?

Just because someone is unwilling or unable to kill an animal for food, doesn't mean that they don't believe that animals shouldn't be used in this manner., just that they prefer to leave it to the paid experts.

24th May 2008, 10:17
a 1999 Pontiac TransAM convertible for fun.

:confused::confused::confused: I'm trying to figure out how anything involving a '99 TransAm would be fun... short of stuffing it with pyrotechnics and setting it on fire.. No, really, explain that one to somebody who thinks cars should master curves and deceleration.. :p

Pinky the pilot
24th May 2008, 10:22
Brickhistory & Dushan; Would'nt mind a 1911A1 Colt m'self!

Can't have 'em here in Oz anymore since the former PM (LJJTLR) banned anything over 40cal.

Peter Fanelli
24th May 2008, 11:55
Together I've accumulated 180,000 miles on these cars.
My 1987 Cadillac currently has 212,000 miles on it and still going strong.

I'm trying to figure out how anything involving a '99 TransAm would be fun... short of stuffing it with pyrotechnics and setting it on fire.. No, really, explain that one to somebody who thinks cars should master curves and deceleration..
Well on a recent Top Gear, the one where they went in search of the ultimate road, they ruled out your country, apparently on the basis that while curves and braking is allowed, acceleration is definitely frowned upon.
Not that a 99 TransAm is anything like the vehicles they were driving that day, but I can see why you'd fail to see the fun in such cars.


24th May 2008, 12:29
Dushan, one's father had among others, a beautiful S&W .44 Magnum. Alas, it went to an elder brother. Damn that primogeniture (sp?) thing anyway?

Same applied to a Thompson .45 submachine gun. And an M-14. One being last got the drug-dealer favorite Mac-10 which I promptly sold, after scoring some crack for after hours fun (joke). No, just the hassle of owning an auto was too much for my military life at the time.

For my current .44 fix, I have a Colt Anaconda.

corsair, sorry for the anything proper ban. Good thing those small caliber guns can't kill either. Sounds like a typical political compromise that didn't solve anything.

One does have said 1911 as well as a smaller .45 for social occasions.

I truly hope that offends someone...............:cool:

24th May 2008, 12:58
Clarkson's an idiot, and I have informed the world of this before, but if I remember correctly, his "ultimate driving road" ended up being a mountain stretch between Davos and somewhere in Italy, the main portion of which is in Switzerland... A place where Jeremy obviously has had to pay a few tickets in before...

Now while I continue sniggering like a fool at the TransAm, I did NOT mean that all US cars are rubbish to drive.. the very latest Corvette series is impressive, for example.

As for cruising the straight bits, nothing will ever beat my old '71 Cadillac de Ville, a rusty behemoth at the helm of which one felt like a barge captain in a mild chop.. brilliant, I tell you, and this while ferrying about 10 people including beer to the beach. My late but heartfelt thanks to the Vero Beach constabulary for their forgiving nature..:ok:

24th May 2008, 13:40
I suppose the way things are going, giving them a gun is cheaper than giving them a free tank of gas!

24th May 2008, 13:43
I like guns, I like shooting guns, it’s fun, and it's a challenge to it well with accuracy.
But I don't think I'd carry one for the same reason I don't feel the need to carry a knife and wear body armour, I’m not sh#t scared of everybody.

You poor [email protected] must live in a horrible place if you’re terrified of all strangers.

If some bloke comes into your house late at night then knock him over the head or just beat the utter crap out of him if you feel up to it. Chances are that if he is armed he won’t have the gun drawn already (too busy stealing the plasma).

As for using a hand gun for hunting, WTF are your people up to?, if you are hunting surely the inconvenience of carrying a rifle is somewhat irrelevant.

Now I know some of you folks over there firmly believe that the British may come back if you all got rid of your guns, fair enough they do have bad oral hygiene and whinge a lot. But perhaps just perhaps if you didn’t have such a large market for handguns then perhaps it may be a little more difficult for the criminals to get their hands on.

Back on thread (free gun with car) it be summed up in “Only in America” .

Good luck with that.

24th May 2008, 14:17
I'm trying to figure out how anything involving a '99 TransAm would be fun

Mr MD, I didn't mention my other fun vehicle, a 2004 Harley Road King, and I don't suppose you'd find that appealing either. I can't argue that a BMW GS would run rings around it, only that there is a soul in the machine, it's built to last, and it's heavy iron, like the TransAm (which has the Corvette engine), derived from the old Chevy 350, a landmark engine.

Back to guns.

A big part of the reason of keeping a gun, BTW my only weapon is a Kimber .45 semi ProCarry II that I've had for many years, is to plant a seed of doubt in the home invader's mind that he is risking his life to enter my house. If enough people are armed, or a neighborhood is known to have a high percentage of armed residents, the crime rate will certainly be low to nil. There's abundant data to support this.

The school shootings that have plagued America recently point to the fact that the psychopath perps knew the likelihood of meeting armed resistance was almost nil, being in gun-free zones, enabling them to plan their nefarious deeds without fear of being taken down in the process.

I do carry my weapon in the car, legally, when I go into the city, only because I know cars do get jacked and law enforcement is seldom around. I've never been arrested and try to be the guy you want to show up when you are cornered at the mercy of a sadistic criminal ready to kill you on a whim.

24th May 2008, 14:46
Aaah, the Milwaukee Moped, now that is something entirely different :ok: The pleasant gurgling noise it made while ambling through Russian River Valley, pure bliss :). Didn't quite trust myself with a Fat Boy or a Road King, but the Sportster was just the ticket for my untrained clumsy self.
But my question, Mr. Benthere, sir: does Harley-Davidson make custom holsters for the .44 Magnum or a rifle holder for the saddlebags?

24th May 2008, 15:28
I suppose the way things are going, giving them a gun is cheaper than giving them a free tank of gas!

Given the car buyer has the choice of a gun or some free petrol, wouldn't the obvious thing be to choose the gun and use it to hold up petrol stations?


24th May 2008, 16:18
Mr. MD, (I refer to you as such to invoke the Young Rascals, part of my youth,) you may be redeemable.

Is the Russian River Valley you rode some river in Russia, or THE Russian River of Northern California? The latter was my stomping ground of 25 years.

I don't think the 500 or so page Harley accessory catelog has an armament section. But they do sell a leather pouch that fits the tubular bar saddlebag frame, just behind your heel on either side. It will accommodate a .45 and is amenable to quick access, this I know. Rifle carry is another matter, but not an insurmountable problem, I wouldn't think.

24th May 2008, 16:35
'twas indeed the Californian version of the Russian River I had the pleasure to visit.. A friend of mine had recommended the Ferrari-Carano winery, which next to very decent wine also sports a very fine garden. Turned out to be an excellent day, departing SF in the morning fog, seeing the sun break through during coffee in Sausalito, the on to wine country.
I guess the only way a rifle looks cool while riding a Harley is slung across the back... I seem to remember Arnie the Terminator doing some gunplay with a Softtail and a pump-action in one of his flicks... Made it look very cool, but hitting anything that way seems unnecessarily difficult to me.
The only real-life parallel that springs to mind is a bored weaponry instructor (not the brightest one in camp..) trying to fire an handheld anti-tank grenade while riding a bicycle. Looked downright silly and resulted in contusions and a broken arm. The bike didn't have a scratch, they used to build those right in the Swiss army :ok:.

24th May 2008, 16:56
I sure if you were technically minded one of these could be addapted.

I know its for a shotgun

http://www.logic-atv.co.uk/productimages/logic_14_0006.jpg (http://www.logic-atv.co.uk/en/general/a/atv_gun_scabbards.htm)

24th May 2008, 17:09
I lean towards the American position rather than the British in the matter of guns.

That said, unless I have missed something, none of the preceding posts goes much if at all beyond the "Hai Guys! Ah like tew carry! Ah'm da man. Haow abeout yew?"; and I have no great quarrel with that either. Whatever turns your crank.

Once, though, I was in a car, long ago and far away, that stopped at the lights where a few unsavoury-looking coves were milling about. Mine host, the driver, nice chap to meet, fiddled around beside his seat and produced
a 9 mm cannon which, he said, he carried for self-protection. Great. Quite the comfort.

Some months later he used said cannon to kidnap a lady and hijack an aircraft. As events unfolded, he shot the pilot, the lady, and himself. I supposed he did not need the cannon any more.

As I say, it was all long ago, and they have all three been dead ever since. Those toys really do kill, and death is permanent.

24th May 2008, 18:33
I went on a motorcycle tour across America in 1987, when I used a BMW K100RS (The Flying Brick). I had a Bell full-face helmet and a bright red Gore-tex suit, so that I didn't exactly look like Mr Biker Bad-ass there but "Someone" must have failed her Motorcycle Outlaw Recognition Course when I got off the ferry on Vancouver Island.

This uniformed female confronted me with something like, "Welcome to Canada sir. Are you aware that you are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon here in Canada? If you have a concealed weapon I must ask you to declare that now, since you are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon here in Canada under Canadian laws which are diffferent from the laws in the United States, where you just came from."

No kidding! I got on that ferry and went all the way across Puget Sound thinking it would still be America when I got to the other end...

"Thank you for telling me that. I do not have any weapons with me, concealed or not, as a matter of fact."

"Yes sir. Well, if you do have a concealed weapon I must ask you to surrender it now..."

We went back and forth like this for about three minutes! What, she thought some clown in a bright red suit on a plastic-clad silver-blue BMW was exactly the same as some Harley mole wearing "colors" riding an oily black rat bike? I was about ready to insist on my right to a strip search except I figured they probably kept Mad Pierre in a cage out back for that.

Perhaps I should have been flattered but I was simply annoyed. Two wheels and an engine = biker outlaw = concealed weapon.

24th May 2008, 18:50
Oh chucks! chucks! chucks! Poor simple chucks! Oh chucks! chucks! chucks! How little you understand!

She was a Canadian officer, and Canadians are lovable, perfect in every way, immeasurably superior to Americans, who are noisy, bullying, arrogant, and obnoxious. The latter carry guns, which makes them generic Dillingers; and by the way, we have Medicare (which means you cannot get a family physician at all, nor an appointment with a specialist within the twelve-month, nor be examined, far less treated, in Emergency Care in under ten hours, but if you could do any of these it would be free) but Americans do not, so it is little wonder they are so envious.

The American tourist numbers are 'way, 'way, down, and we need the dollars. It is your duty to come here and spend them. Now I have gone to all this trouble to explain things, I hope you will be a tad more patient.

24th May 2008, 21:37
Those toys really do kill, and death is permanent.

Indeed. And while I know you are referring to firearms, the same can be said about motorcycles. And riding without a helmet and/or the appropriate clothing can be just as terminal.

Just as I wouldn't own/carry a gun without training and practice (but ah show 'nuff kerry sometimes), I assume the same holds for two-wheeled hood ornaments? I don't ride, but to each his/her own. Their are risks associated with any behavior/activity.

25th May 2008, 10:36
death is just a side-effect of a motor vehicle where it is the primary design goal of a firearm, last time I checked.

I was sharing the hacienda in Nigeria with this German sit-down-to-pee, fully paid-up, Porsche-driving weenie. I told him to please lock the door between the living room and the sleeping quarters so that I could hear the robbers trying to break in, rather than waking up with a knife at my throat, say.

He just gave me this, "What difference would that make?" look, given that the bad guys were coming in one way or the other, when I explained that I, umm, kept a gun in my boudoir.

"That just means someone will get shot!"

"Yeah, well, then I am the guy with the gun..."

Jeez, talk about someone who just couldn't take a joke there! Total sense of humour failure. His take on reality turned out to be that we should call the cops if we had a problem.

Well, first thing was no working telephone. The next was, who do you suppose often moonlight as armed robbers? D'oh! I guess he had spent his whole short and misguided life being taught that "Good German" crap about "Don't get involved, find someone else to sort out your problems for you." The idea that you might really want to shoot some jerk rather than be put at his mercy... he just didn't want to go there.

Back in the First World, though, is a gun really all that necessary?

I got my local gun dealer friend all upset when I tried to buy a cleaning kit, telling him I had a Mossberg 7-shot police 12-gauge. Turns out that is totally illegal in Germany, when I assured him it was not for home use anyway.

They got all huffy about shotguns in the First World War when our American soldiers were using them in trench warfare, which the Germans thought was unfair for some reason, probably just that they hadn't thought of that first. The 12-gauge was right up there past poison gas in the "inhumane weapons" stakes, and we think Germans have no sense of humour!

Compared to the States you just don't have the same level of gun ownership in Germany, although you do get the odd Albanian gangster with an AK now and then.

Cars, on the other hand, whoo! I sometimes hit 155 m.p.h. in the wife's car, just because... Can you do that in the States? I think most jurisdictions still leave you doing 70, maximum, or not even the half of what a fairly normal driver in Germany can manage. Even when I am doing 155 I have to watch the mirrors for someone coming up from behind in a supercar.

All in all, I will take the gun control as a fair trade for being allowed to drive at a reasonable velocity. Even the German country roads allow 62 m.p.h. where the limit in the States can be 35.

The last time I was in the States I had a very lame Toyota Camry with a puny 4-cylinder engine and a slushbox so that I could manage this creeping pace; if I had a B.M.W. there I would probably end up in jail.

Now if we could do some sort of compromise, where I was allowed to shoot at someone nobody would miss, a richly deserving jerk like a yuppie lawyer say, once a month in exchange for crawling along day-in, day-out, well, okay! I would be cool with that. I might even think about moving back.

Instead you have these fast cars you cannot really use with a gun under the seat that you cannot really use either. What is the point of that? No wonder people in the States get so frustrated they have to re-elect a jerk like George W. Bush just to watch him go kick rag-head bootie as a way of blowing off steam. Well, that and the Super Bowl, but there you automatically have about half the population bummed out because "their" team lost.

All in all the U.S.A. looks like a country with some sort of duality: low impulse control and a high level of frustration. Not to kick a loser but the last American car I had, I definitely would have used a gun, if I had one, to shoot the goddam car. Well, that was a Chevrolet Vega, not one of General Motors' best efforts.

Flying Binghi
25th May 2008, 10:58
Yep, all the usual suspects in this thread. I'm wondering if some of the pro-gun posters here are actually paid by the violent media groups.

Violent TV and movies kill real people

It seems to me that the UK media print the thread starter article in some purile attempt to hide just what is happening in their own country.

UK poisoned by wave of youth violence...

more at -

25th May 2008, 12:11
In my opinion, Germans (and Japanese) have higher standards of drivers' training and the drivers are more professional than their American counterparts.

Please note, I wrote 'my opinion.'

That said, getting most US cars to 155 would be pretty close to terminal velocity and the impact into something is just milliseconds away.

However, the muscle cars of the 1960s are rolling works of visual and aural art in my opinion.

BTW, trying to trade my Ford pickup for a BMW this weekend. Does that fit your 'duality' theory? Guess I'll have to start sitting down to pee..........

My view on guns and carrying is based upon a rural upbringing. Much like your African example, law enforcement was many minutes if not closer to an hour away once the call was placed.

Today, it's typically for longer road trips with the same lack of law enforcement constraints that has me place a weapon in the car. There are loooooong stretches of empty highway over here.

For home defence, I consider it a prudent precaution.

25th May 2008, 15:13
Flying Binghi
Don't know if being a fully paid-up member of NRA is the same as "actually paid by the violent media groups", in your mind, but I can assure you that in no way, shape, or form do I promote any violence, with or without a gun. Guns are just fun object and as such I don't want some government bureaucrat to decide whether I should own one or not.

you can laugh at sit-down-to-pee concept, but when you are in a sailboat, in heavy seas that's the only way to do it. Missing the intended target in a completely air tight vessel, has very serious aromatic consequences after a day or two.

As for driving fast, well you don't see any Americans bashing Europeans for being allowed to do so. Americans (and in this case even the self righteous Canadians) recognize the "fun" factor and the benefits and leave it at that, cursing their politicians, and saying "wish we could do that".

Why is the rest of the world so quick to jump and condemn Americans for being able to carry arms. It is called "the right to carry arms" not "being forced to carry arms" so if you don't want to just don't' nobody is forcing you to. Same as if you don't want to do 220k/hr on the autobahn, pull into the slow lane and enjoy the scenery; just don't hog the left lane because that bubble-gum green dot in the distance is a GT3 RS doing 250, and he'll be here soon.

I still maintain that the majority of those who are so critical, and we have some anecdotal evidence from other threads, actually jump at the opportunity to play with some heavy iron, given a choice.

Somebody, a while back, told us how he was working with a lot of Brits, and after they settled in their hotel, got their bearings etc. they would all ask to be taken to the shooting range. Funny that!

I wonder if maximus was one of them:sad::sad:

25th May 2008, 16:53
God forbid, brickhistory, that any hint, any scintilla even, of “racism” should ever enter or be suspected in my thinking, and my devotion to multiculturalism must be too notorious to allow of the possibility, but all the same I am a smidgen taken aback by your:

[QUOTE] In my opinion, .......... Japanese .... have higher standards of drivers' training and [Japanese] drivers are more professional than their American counterparts [UNQUOTE].

Here, based on empirical observation, are a Question and Answer:

Q: If you are in control of a car, in progress along a secondary road in the United Counties of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, immediately behind a 10-year old Honda or Toyota, especially a smaller model, driven by a Japanese (although for present purposes we can include Chinese) driver, smaller model or not: What are you doing?

A: You are driving very slowly.

25th May 2008, 18:57
Quote: I have owned two Mercedes and found that, as a rule, any trip to the dealer would cost me at least $500.

That would be the 1980s then?????? You'd be lucky to get an oil change for that these days....... Power steering hose blew off one of mine on a -35C start in Feb. Managed to reconnect it out in th ebush and dropped it at dealer in town to fix it properly. They wanted 1 hour labour for diagnosis @$125 "But I've just told you what it is!" :eek:

That said, the good thing is that you can still be paying the same $500 for annual oil changes after 500,000 miles. They are cheap cars in the long run :D

25th May 2008, 23:48
davaar, my intent was to say they, as a rule, are better, more professional, i.e., knowing the rules of the road, etc, drivers in their own respective countries. The drivers' education courses and licensing/insurance requirements seem to do better than the average here.

Sorry for the global implication.

Bought my BMW today:

say, that Micheal Moore fellow surely is on to something isn't he?

And those nasty guns some people go on about - I mean, really, what are they compensating for.

Damn! Someone left the seat up..............................

26th May 2008, 05:25
So which BMW did you buy? (I bet you bought a U.S.-made X5, room enough in there for an RPG-7, let alone a S&W .44 Magnum hand-cannon.)

Real BMWs only have two wheels, you know! Really real ones only have two cylinders and cooling fins. We are in a losing battle with progress, you see. First they gave us Dellorto carburetors and then took them away again, then came fuel injection, anti-skid brakes, water cooling, a rear suspension design that didn't make like a cow... it is diluting the old, original "Rubber Cow" trip to the point that there is no point, one might as well buy a Honda!

Everything else is just degeneracy but my wife (yet another sit-down-to-pee type) insists on boring stuff such as an air con, windows that roll up and a roof to keep the weather out, hence a BMW 330Ci. It is not restricted; it just touches 250 indicated with the revs on the redline. 250 indicated is not 250 on the road but never mind that now.

When you find yourself eating a sandwich with a knife and fork then you will know you are getting somewhere with the sit-down-to-pee lifestyle. Wearing scent, throwing biker tee-shirts out just because they have holes, not scratching when your nyash itches... it creeps up on you I tell you!

My main man came back from his holidays and asked me if I wanted to see the piccies, that he'd been in the Austrian Alps. I said yes but what a mistake! Each and every picture showed a Porsche 911 front and center blocking the view. Plus, he told me proudly, the brake discs did NOT get rusty while the machine was parked during his time in Nigeria! If you take the time to inspect your brake discs for rust, you probably also sit down to pee, no?

26th May 2008, 11:34
Two wheels?!

I don't have the guts or the eye/hand/foot coordination for anything with less than four wheels.

Bet I'd have been a terrible helicopter pilot too.................

But I was pretty good back in the day on the Massey-Ferguson with various implements fitted.

26th May 2008, 12:52

" ... throwing biker tee-shirts out just because they have holes,... "


Yes, that is perfectly true; but as we lawyers say "the said list is illustrative not exhaustive".

It numbers many items beyond holey garments. The minute, for example, those who sdtp realise, and of course they have been watching and counting from the very beginning, that one has been wearing a pair of shoes for 28 years one must be eternally vigilant lest said shoes be "lost" (= "thrown out clandestinely").

Another thing is the vest or semmit (mentioned before on these pages). The pressure to wear one is implacable, and it weighs little in the balance that Clark Gable would never have been seen, dead or alive, in one.

Solid Rust Twotter
26th May 2008, 14:52
If you'd asked him he could probably have found you a previously owned AK47 at a good price...

26th May 2008, 15:23
Brickhistory & Dushan; Would'nt mind a 1911A1 Colt m'self!

Can't have 'em here in Oz anymore since the former PM (LJJTLR) banned anything over 40cal.

Actually if you shoot the right match (ISSF Metallic Silhouette) you can have up to a .45 - I've still got my Series 70 Gold Cup :ok:

Unfortunately if you shoot IPSC (or anything else handgun wise for that matter) you can't go over a .38 / 9mm, which is something of a disability in international competitions for these competitors.


26th May 2008, 16:59
Unfortunately if you shoot IPSC (or anything else handgun wise for that matter) you can't go over a .38 / 9mm, which is something of a disability in international competitions for these competitors.

And this is, somehow, good beeeecaaaaause????:confused::confused::confused:

26th May 2008, 17:42
Unfortunately if you shoot IPSC (or anything else handgun wise for that matter) you can't go over a .38 / 9mm, which is something of a disability in international competitions for these competitors.

And this is, somehow, good beeeecaaaaause????

This kind of rules never work. An example would be if we jailed everyone over 6ft tall because they'd have an advantage robbing you. In other words, the metric being used has nothing to do with whether the item is dangerous. Except to people who'd think "hey, if there was nobody over 6 ft I could defend myself against anyone."

For instance, many of the new preferred "cop killing" (liberal media term) guns are like .22 caliber!!!!

Also, it sucks to get stabbed by a really short person.

Solid Rust Twotter
26th May 2008, 17:57

That deadly left hook to the kneecap is a real man stopper.:suspect:

26th May 2008, 18:49
Real BMWs only have two wheels, you know!

Chuks, apparently not, as much as I hate to disagree with you:

from The History of BMW (20/11/00)

The origins of BMW trace back to 1913 when Karl Friedrich Rapp, a Bavarian who had been a well-known engineer in a German aircraft company, formed Rapp Motoren Werke in a suburb of Munich. The company specialized in airplane engines however Rapp found that they were problematic and suffered from excessive vibration. Nearby, Gustav Otto, also an airplane specialist, set up his own shop, Gustav Flugmaschinefabrik, building small aircraft.


Scooby Don't
27th May 2008, 09:09
Formski - .38 Super makes major in IPSC when loaded on the hot side. Isn't that allowed???

For them that don't know, IPSC is a type of competition, also known as "practical", with various courses of fire based loosely on defensive/SWAT-style shooting. Usually, the pistol is holstered for the start of a stage (course of fire), though in some it could be on a desk, in a drawer, in a briefcase or anything else the course designer can come up with. If it's anything other than holstered though, it will almost always be empty when the buzzer goes off. Almost all stages require the shooter to move, shadowed by a range officer to ensure safety, and usually a stage will be long enough to need at least one reload, often more. Targets can be paper, metal plates, skittles, etc. There are usually some "no-shoot" targets, because unlike Keanu Reeves we don't shoot the hostage! Often, a no-shoot target will be placed infront of a shoot target, overlapping by enough to make it difficult.

Scoring is based on a combination of speed and accuracy, the timer being a box of tricks which measures time from buzzer to final shot fired (it actually measures for every shot fired, but displays the last one until reset). Accuracy scoring is where calibre comes in. The central area of a paper target is scored the same regardless of calibre, but the outer zones are scored higher if using a "major" calibre rather than a "minor" calibre, worked out by a formula which basically amounts to bullet momentum. 9mm x 19 (known as 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Luger and a few other things) is the most common minor calibre. .38 Super, .40 S&W, .45 ACP are all major calibres when suitably loaded.

One advantage of a minor calibre, at least until the top guys started loading .38 Super with enough oomph to be a major calibre, is greater magazine capacity and thus less time lost in reloads. The other advantage is greater controllability, especially useful when many targets must be double-tapped. In many jurisdictions, magazines are limited to 10 rounds by law, thus removing the capacity advantage over a typical .40 S&W calibre pistol. .45 ACP calibre pistols are becoming a rarity in IPSC, being generally limited to 7-round capacity.

Just to add to the choices for those getting started, there are 3 different classes of pistol. Production class is where you'll find Glocks, SIGs and the like. Standard class allows a bit of customization but the pistol must still fit inside a box of a certain size and cannot have optical sights. Open class allows just about anything, so there you'll see ported barrels, optical sights (these are generally non-magnifying, but project a red dot or cross onto a glass optic, giving a single aiming point rather than the need to align front and rear sights) and hot calibres which make a lot of noise!

If you want to see what standard and open class pistols look like, visit www.stiguns.com and have a look at the Edge (standard) and Trubor Grandmaster (open class and colourful...).

27th May 2008, 11:34
When they fired him they re-named the company, so that was the real start of B.M.W. as such.

Their first venture into wheeled vehicles was a motorcycle with many of the design features found today, such as shaft drive and a "boxer" horizontal twin, air-cooled engine layout.

When it came to cars they just copied the Austin 7!

Cars are just something one uses to keep the weather off. Okay, on slippery surfaces or when disputing right-of-way they do have the secondary benefit of preventing bruises, abrasions, fractures and occasional death by severe squashification, yes, there is that... Boredom, on the other hand, is an ever-present risk to the car driver, so that I maintain that if it's really "Freude am fahren" you are after then there is only one sort of B.M.W. you want and if you want to stay true to the company's roots then you need one that still shares the most of the original design features.

I am not a snob; I can be found behind the wheel of an inferior, so-called, four-wheel perversion of the original B.M.W. vision of motoring, presumably developed to appeal to those who either sit down to pee or else need or want to sit down to pee. Hell, some of my best friends sit down to pee! Not most of them but some of them, okay. Maybe it's something in the water; don't ask me!

Flying Binghi
27th May 2008, 12:18
Hot damn Chucks, what ya doing wasting posts like that in this thread :D
methinks we need a BMW thread - had on of those tutonic machines meself once.

Cars are just something one uses to keep the weather off

There are other uses for cars. After playing Grand Theft Auto, one can see how a car can be used for pedestrian eradication and killing police... amongst other things.

27th May 2008, 12:21
..... and for the motorcycle they copied the Douglas Flat Twin, unless I am misinformed.

Oh What the Hell! ........... ORAC?

27th May 2008, 13:14
Cars are just something one uses to keep the weather off

Well dull cars are, like my Honda Civic. Then there are cars that inspire, cars that you can't help become passionate about, cars that are iconic, they aren't just to keep the weather off. (I thinking about cars such as a Dino, '64T-Bird, Countash, etc. Real cars, cars that are more than just bits of rolling metal.)

27th May 2008, 13:46
Did you say keep the weather off? Hardly:


27th May 2008, 15:30
Picture of a man waiting for the guy parked in front of him to drive off so that he can get out of his parking space without putting any dents in his wife's toy car...

Mine came back one time with a large rounded dent in the rear bumper. She told me that there was a tree there she hadn't seen when she parked. I just shook my head and said it was a real shame what those squirrels got up to burying and then forgetting their acorns, yes.

Here in the desert we now have the army to protect us with their AK-47s where we only had guys with Baikal shotguns before. Umm, how far will a bullet from an AK fly in case of an accidental discharge? I need to know because I have a bet on...

Scooby Don't
27th May 2008, 17:01
General concensus is about 3 miles for a bullet from a centrefire rifle (1 mile or so for .22 rimfire) assuming the barrel is angled up at about 40 degrees. I assume drag is the reason 45 degrees won't get you max range, but ask an artillery expert! They should know that sort of stuff.

The AK47's cartridge is 7.62 x 39 mm - the latter dimension is case length. The 7.62mm NATO cartridge has a 51mm case, so it takes a fair bit more powder. Cases can also have different diameters and profiles of course, and the current vogue is for short, fat cases in which the powder burns more uniformly and in theory gives greater accuracy and greater velocity than a long, narrow case of similar powder capacity. The AK's cartridge isn't considered fat (though it is short) unless it's necked down to .22 calibre by the extreme accuracy crowd known as benchrest shooters. And no, you can't eat a benchrest once you've shot it...

Two factors ultimately decide how far the bullet will go for any given angle of elevation and set of atmospheric conditions. Velocity and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. Generally speaking, the heavier the bullet for its calibre, the more efficient it will be, though shape also plays a part. 7.62mm NATO ammunition with a 147 grain bullet (a grain is an old apothecary's measure, equal to about 0.065 of a gram) will have a muzzle velocity of 2,800 feet per minute. For the AK's ammunition, a lighter 123 grain bullet will have m/v of about 2,350 fpm.

Anyway....where all that leads is that a bullet from an AK probably won't make it to 3 miles. I'd guess between 2 and 2.5 miles.

27th May 2008, 17:22
:)Scooby, I'm sure you mean, and we all understand, that you were quoting feet per second, not feet per minute, in your last post. Correct? After all, 2,800 feet per minute equates to a bullet travelling about, and very approximately, at 30 miles per hour! Nonetheless, thanks for some quite interesting stats in your post there.

Scooby Don't
27th May 2008, 18:27
Oops... Excuse me while I slap myself about the face for a while. YES, feet per second. 2,800 fps is actually a bit over mach 2, so you can't outrun a bullet on a moped. :ugh:

27th May 2008, 18:57
Not waiting, arriving.

See next picture (and note licence plate - not wife's)

Scooby Don't
28th May 2008, 07:35
Dushan, someone has to say it......

How much for a trim, wash and blow dry??? :}:ok:

28th May 2008, 09:31
Any time you post a photo here I guess that has be counted as "brave but foolish."

I need to put one up of my B.M.W. in its factory custom colour scheme of silver, orange and black and then wait for the flattering comments to flood in, esp. if I also show the helmet in yellow, blue and black, the gloves in red, white and black and the suit in yellow, black and red with little white and black stripes. The new boots are just black with silver reflective trim; I didn't want to pay extra to get the ones in red, blue or yellow because I thought that would look kind of gay.

I kind of like the idea of a 2 800 fpm bullet, one you could see coming and move out of the way of. Catch it in your teeth, even... I don't know. Raggedy-ass guys with guns just don't do it for me. Poverty + boredom + automatic weapons = trouble.

28th May 2008, 11:46
Scooby, you shouldn't have...

How much for a trim, wash and blow dry???

Chuks is right:

Any time you post a photo here I guess that has be counted as "brave but foolish."

But, it has been said before, I have no problems with it. The car is fun to drive, it needs a bit of work, so I have something to do on a rainy weekend. Where can you get that kind of on-going fun for $5k?

Laugh all you want. I am the one having fun.....

Wait till I post a picture with a newly installed gun rack:E

Scooby Don't
28th May 2008, 13:00
Dushan - I salute you! Not literally; I'm not wearing a hat and we leave hatless saluting to Americans. But still, you have a perfectly reasonable argument for having a Miata. Bear in mind though that a radio station out west (Edmonton - Sonic FM, the home of modern rock, yada yada) issues tickets on the air for "convertible violations", such as having the roof down before Wiarton Willie has done his thing, or when it's below 15 degree C.

Chuks - well done presenting the argument for only the wealthy having guns.
Excess income + free time + automatic weapons = the Elvis Presley way to change the channel on the TV!

In all seriousness, there is an expert in matters of violence in the US, a retired US Army colonel with psychiatric training and war-fighting experience. In his books, On Combat and On Killing, he tells how training was used to increase the numbers of soldiers willing to actually fire their rifles at the enemy, from less than 25% in WW2 to over 90% in Vietnam. He also points that the training developed to make that happen is remarkably similar to the gory movies and violent video games that most kids and teenagers have access to today. His view is that without the discipline which goes along with such training of soldiers, these games and movies are simply too dangerous. I have to say I agree with him.
Growing up in the UK, without a VCR until I was 15 or so, and with a Commodore 16 as the height of my computing power ("no Mum, it doesn't work with games for the Commodore 64, and yes I know they look the same"), I learned to shoot in the Combined Cadet Force and at my local clay pigeon shooting club. Safety was the first lesson, and it stuck. Any kid with the same shooting education, and the same lack of desensitization to violence will have no problem being completely safe and trustworthy with guns.

Flying Binghi
28th May 2008, 17:57
Talking to a player of Grand Theft Auto. I'm told that some of the cars in the game that are used to run over pedestrians, probably wouldnt last too long in real life... running over pedestrians that is.

It would appear that the real life cars that are depicted in GTA are very weak around the radiater area and wouldnt last far past the first 'kill'.

I'm wondering what some other GTA players think. Would the 'real' cars go the distance?

What would be the best car to use to run over pedestrians in real life?
Obviously you would want the car to absorb multiple 'hits' ......

... maybe we could make this into a movie................... story line any one ?

28th May 2008, 19:15
Wouldn't work for me, and I live close enough to take advantage of the offer. A friend had a Kel-Tec .380 as his summer carry piece and I shot it at the range one day. Small pistol, rather uncomforable to hold and fire. Much prefer my Para-Ordnance in .45 ACP.

Scooby Don't
29th May 2008, 10:27
twb3, a nice piece to be sure. I used to have a Para S16.40. Made in Canada, by people who sit down to pee, obviously.... :E