How dumb is this?

[B A Lert]

Heard on the same frequency today into YSSY were Rex 664 and Rex 464. These flights it seems are scheduled into YSSY 25minutes apart from the same area of NSW.

Surely the people who allocate flight numbers conduct some checks to see if there are any likely clashes with numbers that could lead to misunderstanding as life is already difficult enough.

[Cougar2063]

I am an ATC working a large en-route sector which has about 10 frequencies, all re-transmitting.
Sometimes we have about 25 aircraft in the airspace.....5-6 Virgin....5-6 Qantas...and multiples of most airlines.

It never ceases to amaze me just how similar many of the flight numbers are.

In the past fortnight I would have had at least 3 wrong aircraft responding to another aircrafts instruction. Thank god never for a level change....usually just a frequency transfer. And some of these guys switch INSTANTLY, so ya don't get a chance to correct it.

[Jamitupyr]

Get your ALM or supervisor to ESIR every instance (give em somethin to do!) That way CASA & ATSB see how scary it is!

Jamit

[Buster Hyman]

So, was it better when they used the rego as a callsign?:confused:

[lowerlobe]

Hyman Buster.....Something this dyslexia is problem for A B Lert causing!
(works for Yoda)

Then again...maybe BA is suggesting we could identify the aircraft after the PIC's first name:E

Victor Vector...Clearance Clarence...Hey that sounds like a good line for a movie.....:)

[Mr Whippy]

Not sure if it's changed but I remember hearing 3 Sunstate flights inbound to Brisbane in the morning, all arriving at around the same time - Flight numbers 335, 353 and 323. They got fouled up on a regular basis.

[virgindriver]

In the past fortnight I would have had at least 3 wrong aircraft responding to another aircrafts instruction

I get called QF instead of DJ with a similar flight number too. Seems ATC isn't perfect either!

[Delay Approved]

Regos can be just as bad. I remember one busy afternoon in Darwin when I had ZML, ZMK, ZME, ZMG and ZMT all simultaneously on frequency! I can assure you that caused more than a little confusion for all involved.

[40years]

Regos are better. Way back in the dark days of the 70's I had many aircraft in a holding pattern. The only mistakes were made by BA12, PA812 and QFA 12, all of who managed to respond to the others' instructions.
Moving forward many years, there were fixed conditions agreed to by the airlines when Flight number callsigns (FNCs) were introduced; most of these have been ignored. The God of marketing and forward publishing of schedules takes precedence over safety.
However, there are some advantages of FNCs; they can avoid the trauma that aircraft changes can cause in an automated system (eg BAM viceBAB vice BAA taxies for KII....)

[Cougar2063]

"I get called QF instead of DJ with a similar flight number too. Seems ATC isn't perfect either!"



No human is.....it is the system I was critical of.....not pilots.

[Roger Standby]

Whether rego's were any better or not is irrelevant. It's not going to change back. It's not about whether pilot's make the mistake or controllers. I've done it and had it done to me. I try and warn similar callsigns when they are both on freq, but it isn't always apparant until after it happens.

The point is that the airlines have the power to do this properly and they don't. With 3 digits following the company name, it allows for 1000 different combinations. Surley someone from each company can do a little homework and mix it up a bit better.:hmm:

[silversaab]

A good place to start might be with AsA - they get the slots requests from the airlines. Not perfect, but a start.

[airsupport]

As others have pointed out, surely the safest way is to use registrations, at least with domestic flights, as there can not be two the same. :ok:

[Keg]

I seem to recall plenty of hassles when there were a bunch of Echo Alpha's and Romeo Mikes ploughing through the skies! It probably has increased marginally but given the way that most airlines rego their aircraft we're deluding ourselves thinking that is the answer to the problem.

[airsupport]

Well IMHO it MUST be safer surely, even IF you had RMD, RME, RMF, RMG all on approach to the same airport, each is a different identity and "shouldn't" be confused. :ok:

[Lodown]

I've found that waiting until the controller calls my ID three times to make sure I'm the one he/she is calling always works a treat. Never any confusion at my end.

[Here to Help]

Try Eastern 2001, EA2101, EA2121 going through SGT to SY together.

Or the daily EA2115 and EA2116 SY-CFS/CFS-SY as they pass each other.

[airsupport]

It definitely used to be by registrations, domestically anyway, why on Earth was it changed? :ugh:

[MELKBQF]

The bright sparks at JQ changed the way they number flights a couple of years. Domestic flights are numbered JQ400 upwards, similar to how QF number their flights. You now often have JQ and QF flights departing/arriving the same port with same number at a simialr time eg: QF444 MEL-SYD 1600, JQ444 MEL-OOL 1545.

[WynSock]

With EAA, why not just drop the '2'?
Sunnies doesn't fall out of the sky because they use 3 digits.

FFS, are they ever going to have more than 999 flights airborne at once?:ugh:

[Capt Wally]

Eastern 2121 cancel Sid & turn left hdg 210 climb to FL 220, turn left 210 climb FL220 eastern 2121...............yep safety in 'numbers' !:bored:


CW

[B A Lert]

Would there be any problems by using a combination of flight number AND aircraft registration, such as Rex 664 Kilo when flight 664 is operated by VH-ZLK? That surely would go a long way to minimise any confusion.

[9v-SKA]

There are already suffixs for certain types of flights. For example when the first A380 was stucked in SYD. A few hours after the plane I arrived on departed as Singapore 220, the stucked plane left as Singapore 220 Foxtrot. I suppose its supposed to mean ferry.

[Starts with P]

It gets even better when you have QF737 that is actually a 767, or QF744 that is a 737. They are the best ones.

Rex also have my favourite, the Dubbo flights in the morning an hour or so apart RXA826 and RXA862. Really, is there any need for that?

[amberale]

Controllers can and do get aircraft to use rego instead of flight number if there is potential for confusion.
It's a bit late if you leave it until the terminal area. If the crew has already flown for an hour or more using one callsign then changing it for the last sector will probably cause more confusion.
As a controller I liked regos as callsign. We used to be able to recognise aircraft type and therefore performance and weight turb characteristics from the rego.
Even things like "Oh has TJA still got that pressurisation problem they had last week"

AA

[Here to Help]

From AIP:

4.17.1 When selecting a flight identification number or call-sign suffix,
operators should avoid using numbers that correlate with:
a. ending in “zero” or “five”, to avoid confusion with headings;
b. potential level utilisation (eg. 500, 350 etc);
c. emergency codes (eg. 7600, 7700 etc); and
d. numerical aircraft types (eg. 767, 330 etc).

[Spodman]

Later this evening my sector will have QFA653 YMML-YPPH, VOZ653 YMML-somewhere north & JST653 YPPH-YMAV. Since daylight savings ended have had them all on the same freq group at the same time twice. Hope to complete the set one day if QFA553 is a bit late YMML-YPAD and is still there as well. (thinks: where does RXA3653 go again?)

Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...

I agree the same potential for confusion is there with using rego, but why duplicate that with stupidly similar callsigns that everybody says rooly quickly coz they are so long? It could be organised A LOT BETTER!!!:ugh:

[drshmoo]

Last year around 0600 on BN centre I was roaring along in my metro enroute at WLM-LOWEP and was cleared "Brindabella102 cleared FL350"
ummmmmmmmmm - answer was "not in a metro"

VB had a very similar callsign on same frequency

Poor ATC - throw in probably fatigued from end of back of the clock shift and mistakes can happen.

God bless TCAS

[Mickster]

Don't forget Top End 222 and Top End 2222. I used to hear those ones around DN at the same time. "Was that TE 2-2-2 or TE 2-2-2-2?"

Finally the controller gave them different callsigns. I would have thought TE triple 2 and TE Twenty-two Twenty-two would have been better. I think number groups are actually mentioned in Jepps, but can't be bothered looking at the mo'

[Eastern2217]

The good old morning dash 8 services Eastern 2202 and Eastern 2220, both coming from the same quadrant of the network, departing their respective ports at 6.30am!

[disturbedone]

SSQ353D departs airfield A, get's abeam airfield B, at same time as SSQ335D departs airfield B. Both aircraft parallel tracks to airfield C. Happens every day.

[OpsNormal]

CB approach (I guess ML if it comes down to that) occasionally will caution some aircraft that there is a similar call-sign aircraft on the same frequency at the same time.

ie; "XX102 caution, XXX201 also on frequency" - certainly makes it easier. I guess it heats up a bit when the sector becomes rather busy and it can still work well as long as everyone stays relatively awake.

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[makespeed250kt]

Have seen numerous examples of similar callsigns in my little patch and I realise that sometimes it is unavoidable.

What really bothers me is there appears to be no real attempt by AsA, CASA or the airlines to try and minimise the risk.

Example: Two weeks after attending a briefing about this very subject, a well known regional carrier commenced a revised schedule which saw two of there aircraft, with similar callsigns (ie. 4643 and 4634) on a one-way route, passing nose to nose.

Throw in 3 or 4 other callsigns from the same operator, a busy evenings traffic, some WX diversions and multiple level changes and it's only a matter of time till something unpleasant :eek::eek::eek: happens.

[Hempy]

So, was it better when they used the rego as a callsign?:confused:

Yes!! :ugh:

[Lasiorhinus]

Be glad we're not flying in India, where convention is to adopt the "international abbreviated callsign" for all aircraft...

VT-ABC, VT-BBC, VT-CBC, VT-DBC, and so on... twenty-six aircraft all with the callsign "Victor Bravo Charlie".

With the potential for 17,576 registrations, same as here, they manage to get away with only 676 callsigns to share around.

[ACMS]

The Airlines in India use their Airline name in the callsign and not their Rego.. Jet airways, Kingfisher etc etc. So the Rego doesn't matter. However just like Aussie the numbers can get confused.

Eg: Jetairways Callsign "Jetairways"

Air India Callsign "Air India"

SpiceJet Callsign "Spicejet"

Kingfisher Callsign "Kingfisher"

etc etc

[Lasiorhinus]

And, just like Australia, aircraft that aren't airliners use their registration :ok:

[ACMS]

yeah.............but there still aren't that many private a/c flying around. You see maybe a dozen bizjets parked in BOM but I've NEVER heard any on the freq. And I fly into/over India a lot. So it's not YET a big problem.

The problems with ATC in India don't relate to callsign confusion, that would be easier to handle!!