finally a job but.... BUT....!

[number]

hi guys,

I need some opinions about my situation:

I'm almost 34, got my frozen ATPL, MEP/IR, MCC, 600TT yada yada yada a few years ago and no jobs as a pilot..
I have now a good and stable job which pays off quite well, different environment of course....

Suddenly something has moved for me in the aviation frame and it seems I can have a job as a copilot in a small airtaxi company in my city ....

I went there a few times, got acquainted with everyone, started to update jeppesen .. saw the plane, spoke with pilots and captains... but...
first of all I need to pay my type rating .... which will be more or less 13K pounds.... after which I will have to do 40 legs and no pay... (period that can take from 1-2 months to 3-4) and only then I'll have a contract... which seems it will be ridiculous in term of pay, say 40% less than what I'm making now ..... plus I'll have to keep into account 3 to 5 months without salary, and the type rating .....

So, at the very beginning I was trilled... but now I started to have my doubts ... I know this airtaxi company would be only a beginning, because no one is willing to be there .... but it's a good training and beginning for sure....

I don't have a family to support but my family can barely support me, I do have my job but don't really have a lot saved .....

What would you guys do? Do you think it's a difficult decision? Becaise I can't see things clearly no more.

thank you!

[isi3000]

Well it seems like you've had a long wait for this first job but it sounds as if this just is not the right job for you. If it doesn't suit your situation maybe you should consider turning it down :uhoh:

[preduk]

Tough one.

You could use them to get the experience, but what happens if they take you for a ride and get rid of you after the temporary period, it means you are 13k down and not a penny to show for it.

[Bravo441]

You said you were thrilled when you got the offer of the job with the air taxi company. Were you thrilled when you got the offer of the job (not aviation related) you are in now? Would you be thriiled to advance and excell in your current position or a similar field?

Its obvious you are passionate about flying, havin made the considerable sacrifices to put 600TT in the log book.

Ask yourself the above questions a few times, but whatever happens, dont have any regrets (Easier said than done).

Best of luck....441

[Vortex Thing]

Personally think you should quit and leave aviation and go and do something a little less risky.

DON'T BE SO SOFT. If they are asking for money but guarantee you a job then take the offer. That's a good offer, there are many firms out there who will take the money and not guarantee you a job! I.e. every FTO and TRTO you have been to so far. This is just another step in the job chain the difference is you are not having to guess which type rating may or may not be attractive.

So 2 scenarios remain.
1) You do not want it enough. In which case leave it to someone who does.
2) You want it but are not sure if it's worth the financial risk. Which seeing as you have probably paid upwards of £60k to get to where you are now is a little nonsensical. See 1 above!

So in essence the choice is whether or not you want to fly something for a living OR earn a living and fly when it suits you. If you want to fly for a living and someone offers you a job in something that flies take the job, you are unlikely to starve and it can only get better. If on the other hand the money is more useful than advancing your career then I hate to tell you that you will never be happy in aviation because statistically you are likely to be very much worse off for many years before it gets better.

Don't want to rain on your parade but the scenario you describe is not a decision about this role it is a decision about whether you really want this career. There is nothing more important than the job! There is little that you cannot buy later in life that is important as you state you have no family to support.

Good luck.
VT

[wheelie my boeing]

If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
Everyone these days is racking up more and more debts... It WILL bite them in the :mad: one day. Hold in there! Some people wait 3/4 years but eventually it will happen!

[pipertommy]

If you are thinking of turning it down, couldnt you try your luck and strike a deal with bonding? Being local and unlikely to want to move on at the drop of a hat, must be a selling point. Worth a try? They can only say no.
Good luck

[Finals19]

DON'T BE SO SOFT. If they are asking for money but guarantee you a job then take the offer. That's a good offer, there are many firms out there who will take the money and not guarantee you a job! I.e. every FTO and TRTO you have been to so far. This is just another step in the job chain the difference is you are not having to guess which type rating may or may not be attractive

Vortex... I can't say I agree with this at all - you are effectively endorsing a company that is not prepared to commit or invest in a potential employee on any level. That says a lot about the company, and indeed sadly a lot about the evolving state of the pilot employment market! If they offered a bond with pay from day one of line flying (at the very least) then that would be much more palatable. Its ludicrous enough nowadays that pilots are more and more being forced to pay training costs up front (the fault of a minority but the majority are affected!) but to offer no commitment at all until the end of 40 sectors - come on!!!

Number - your comments are fair and reasonable and IMHO if you can hold out, then I most definitely would. Add that to the fact that you say nobody really wants to stay there (I wonder why?!) I would imagine the CRM and general ambience isn't too great either. It is indeed a question of gaining experience, but at what cost?

[Vortex Thing]

Finals 19. You start of chastising my view but then hit the hail on the head in your last sentence.

It is indeed a question of gaining experience, but at what cost?

It is called supply and demand. Currently there is ample supply so the buyer i.e. the airlines do what they want as we the seller are prepared to pay more and more. When/if the balance shifts then the boot will move onto the other foot.

Is it ludicrous that pilots have to pay up front training cost, errm yep. Is it morally wrong, errm yep. Do we continue to do it droves errm yep. Why because much as we would like it our moral conscience doesn't pay the mortgage and the facts are simple aviation is no longer a meritocracy it's an hoursocracy and experienceocracry.

I would love to see the introduction of a universal pilot aptitude test of the sort of OASC caliber which had scores going from 1000 = Chuck Yeager to 10 = I will follow you into an aircraft purely out of curiosity.

A fully integrated test i.e psych profile, maths, physics, verbal numerical reasoning, spatial orientation as well as motor skills and learning. This test to be run by an independent contractor to JAR with every firm in Europe as an ironclad agreement to take the next best form the top of the pile only. None of this rubbish where you get an A starred for taking part, pure hard cold competition. Where the guy/girl who gets 600 is just simply in every way not as good as the guy/girl who gets 601 and companies start at the top and hire in the order the market can provide.

Now the fact is companies do not just hire the best pilots on offer, they do not know who the best pilots are as the criteria that most screen on is arbitrary.

i.e. Many airlines will not interview you until you have, say 1000hrs with 500hrs on type or 200hrs multi, etc ,etc. You could be the next Chuck Yeager but no one will ever know until you have scrabbled about to get the minimum hours that airline X require before they even look at your CV. Or they may say they only recruit integrated or modular or flaxen haired. What I am saying is they are not as a rule interviewing everyone, putting them through a robust selection procedure and taking the best of the crop.

Now if the world were like this then number would be wasting his money unless he was a top scorer but because no one knows or cares what his score would be those who want it find a way, beg, borrow, beg again if they have to but they do what is required to get a job, any job, anywhere in the world.

Those who haven't got the stomach for the fight can feel free to leave, less competition for the rest of us. We don't make the rules as the supply, we only make the rules when we are the demand. Until then number take the job or step sidewards your call but don't say in 5 years time you never got your shot and ask if it is fair that the guy who did pay is now flying his version of the dream.

Is life fair NO, is it a meritocracy NO, has someone offered you a job YES. Get on with it as the answer to at what cost is subjective is it worth yet more debt in pursuit of your goal to me yes, to you well only you know and only you can choose but when you do choose bear in mind that you may not get another opportunity like this again. They know it that's why they get away with it!!!

[gunit]

go for it!!

[3Greens]

first of all i would get something in writing so you aren't left high and dry if you fork out for the type rating and suddenly noone can remember offering you the job. :ok:

[number]

Thanks guys for all the opinions, Im still quite unsure (and I’ll have to decide in a few days)

The point is that I’m tired of struggling and spending money for my trainings, but at the same time I see finally a possibility as a pilot but the position is a bit controversial.

If I keep my actual job I’ll have a promotion and more benefits, if I go for the pilot career there will be several big uncertainties, first of which is the pay…

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the money what I’m after, but it’s an important aspect considering that I don’t have anyone who can back me up.

Ok, the aero taxi company is rather small, didn’t impress me in terms of organization and offices, the copilots have some crazy schedules: first of all they have to be in stand by h24 the whole month sometimes cause they can be called anytime, and I was told that at least for the very beginning (which I don’t know how much will be ) I won’t be able to take holidays, and I will have to be always available.

The salary is made up of a fixed part and a variable one, depending on how much I’m flying. The fixed part is an insult. Fixed + variable is still 40% less of what I’m making now (and its not that I’m making that much either.. ) .

I really don’t know … I still have to make a serious talk with the CEO of the aero taxi company, see, one of the main guy did refuse me a letter of intention … you know, just to have a piece of paper that states … if you successfully complete the type rating + the 40 (not paid) flights we will hire you.

All I got so far : I was made to assist the dangerous goods recurrency course, and a few manuals ..

Sure at the end of the games I'll get the job, if the same chance happened to me a few years ago, i'd have gone for it blindly... i know if i drop this i will close forever with aviation ...

[PaulW]

Bite the bullet and go for it. I guarantee that you will never regret. Yes financially the pain will continue, the first flying job will never solve that problem. If you take it whatever happens, your hours/experience will be increasing one year later you could be moving on to bigger and better things. The "could" is with reference to the time it will take you, once your rolling youll be away forever gaining experience, being in the industryand in ten years time youll be so glad you did it rather than wishing you had taken the opportunity. I had similar circumstance where I bit the bullet for less than appealing conditions but im so glad I did.

[Superpilot]

Two questions:

1.) What aircraft type are you going to fly?
2.) Did they advertise the job and did you interview or are you getting it based on recommendation?

[potkettleblack]

If its a small company then its probably more likely that they might be open to negotiation. In that case get out the violin and start playing them a sad tune. Tell them how broke you are after forking out for the best training money could buy. Tell them how you would love to work for them but just can't afford the TR now and how hard it is to raise debt in the current financial climate and with the possibility of the aviation industry heading south that your bank manager won't give you a bean. If that is getting you nowhere then say hey why don't you take the TR out of my monthly pay in chunks over say 2 years. That way if they go tits up then you won't be so exposed and hopefully you will have completed the TR and have a few hours on type.

[tom_ace]

so let me get this straight, you will be paying to work for someone?

[Orvil]

Hi all,

I think you'd find a better deal with Skyblue Aviation down in Exeter.

Orvil

[heli_port]

You pay for the TR and you don't get paid!? :} {flashbacks of reading the Ryan air thread :hmm:)

Stay away i say :ugh:

[3Greens]

having read your further post it seems that this is a prety crap deal even for a first job. If they won't give you something in writing then forget it - too risky. The conditions don't seem that great either, even taking all factors into account i doubt i'd have taken this job when i was starting out.

[agent.oen]

this doesnt sound like a comforting deal at all... I would be very cautious. Also how easy would it be for you to revert to Plan B if the sh*t hits the fan?

I would expect to get paid to work, no matter what the job! This might be one offer, but there should be other offers out there too - I guess it's a matter of playing it safer while waiting for a better deal or risking a lot.

[blueskiesup]

Number, i sympathise with your situation. I'm 38 and finished my flight training 3 years ago,did all the CV sending and ringing about in the hope of that vital break.
I was on verge of doing my own T/R when I got that all important phone call asking if i was still available,thought about it for a nano-second and now i'm flying a very well equiped T/P.
If you can hold-off and wait for that golden nugget of a job,then do so. If I (at 38 years young) can do it, then perhaps others can.
Hope this is of some use.

[number]

Thanks again guys .. .. Im at the airport right now, just spoke again
with all the main guys in the company.
To answer some questions: will I be payed when I will be working? YES
Do I have to pay my type rating in advance? YES

I can ask to have my type rating price taken away from my salary,
which will be already riduculous .... what if they will not accept
it? Is it a clear sign?

I have another job in standby, which has got nothing to do with
aviation, due date is the first of July .. and I'm supposed to start
my TR the 20 of June... but I'll have to go through the TSA

I'm still chewing on it.....

[number]

Guys,

after carefully thinking, I decided not to go for it. Tomorrow I will have one last word with the CEO and I will state the following: I will take the deal only if I will be hired now.

I can't afford to stay several months without a salary, I would leave a very good job, not aviation related but which pays off quite well.

I would have to cover my type rating, I would have to go through the 40 legs without pay.... all this at my own risk this whole process might take 5-6 months, I will be very honest here: you know how much I was offered per month? 1034 pounds... which already includes the flying benefits... 500 pounds if I do not fly for example.

It's ok to be passionate about something but this is not a good deal, I can't be very objective because I really want to be a pilot but I was told by my family not to risk that much

[Luke SkyToddler]

Sounds well dodgy to me, even for a first job offer. Type ratings are always speculative, do you mind telling us exactly what the hell type of aircraft they wanted you to pay £13K for the type rating on?

If it was a 19 seat turboprop or better then fair play to em - but there are far far too many shifty operators charging those kind of sums for a bloody Chieftain endorsement these days - which should be 3 grand absolute max.

[number]

do you mind telling us exactly what the hell type of aircraft they wanted you to pay £13K for the type rating on?


citation Bravo, it might be cheaper, and I don't have to pay them but the TRTO, which has got nothing to do with them

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its a crappy deal and should be viewed as a £13k gamble.

However, it probably will work out and the First Job is biggest hurdle in the whole race. Once over that the world rapidly improves for you.

Good luck,

WWW

[number]

ya type ratings are speculative, thats why i decided to hold back ... if all the pilots would do the same im sure that airliners would be forced to treat us with some more respect

[Mungo Man]

Number, tough call my man. There will be people who have turned down crap first jobs and regretted it and people like me who turned down their first job offer and ended up better off. But I do know what its like when you're thinking "at the end of the day its a flying job". I turned down a multi-turbine job straight after my IR, but the terms and conditions were horrendous...
pay was going to be £70 a week, a free caravan to live in, they wanted £6000 for a type rating and I would have had to move to a foreign country. Just wasn't worth it for me so I spent £5k on an Instructor rating and got a jet job 12 months later.

Good luck and its all good experience.

[OneIn60rule]

I would get a contract before ever taking this. Sounds too bad.

Last thing you want is to hear them say : "OH sorry we decided to employ Mr. XXX, but hey do stay in touch!"

[scooby79]

Good decision. It is very rare for someone in your situation to do what you did and turn down the chance of a jet job because the terms and conditions were very poor. I am sure loads of idiots on this forum would be willing to not only pay for the TR but also for 500 hours in the right seat. It is people like you that I have a lot of respect for as you are doing the opposite of most and not helping to lower standards in pay and conditions. I don't mean to sound condescending but well done. :D

[inner]

Number,

What was the reaction of the CEO?

It is a very brave decision you took. It is a sh*tty deal. Perhaps you can obtain a FI rating or do some other flying activities (para dropping etc) in your spare time to boost up you flying career.

good luck (y)

[Glorified Donkey]

if you take this job there you're whats wrong with the industry. Dont be a whore and dont rush to get into a flashy new plane. First of $13K? and then 40 legs with no pay. Doest seem like you mean very much to them. They're just trying to find suckers.... dont be a sucker

[cldrvr]

Paying for your own type rating and then not getting paid while you do your line training is not a good start. Why don't you make a deal with the guy, he pays for the type rating and you get a contract with a bond attached over say two or three years. You could take out a joint commercial loan with a bank. If you walk the loan goes with you and as long as you remain employed he services the debt for you. Both of you win.

Working for a small taxi outfit that may not have full time trainers available for you could mean a very protracted time to finish your line training. You should not even offer to work for free during your line training as you will be employed commercially on the line while being trained.

It all sounds rather like a dubious deal, you make all the effort and all the expenses and get nothing in return. Working for free during your SEP's, your line training and already spending time in the office updating Jepps and manuals?

Does not sound like an employer you should be involved with.

BTW, 1,000 per month as an FO is insane. The going rate for an FO is probable double or trebble that.

[number]

What was the reaction of the CEO?

inner,
I wasn't even allowed to talk to him directly, I spoke to his flunkey, who, in front of me, called the CEO and told him I suggested a 3 year bond.... well he turned me down at once, the whole conversation lasted 1 minute :)

if you take this job there you're whats wrong with the industry

Glorified Donkey,
In fact I didn't take it. Although it's easier to preach than to practice, don't know how many would have done the same in my position...

BTW, 1,000 per month as an FO is insane. The going rate for an FO is probable double or trebble that.

cldrvr,
let me stress this out better: the salary was made of a fixed and a variable part, depending on how much you were flying.... well, the 1000 per month already included both, with the maximum flying.
The fixed part was 554 pounds, gross.

[Hotelpresident]

You pay for the TR and you don't get paid!? :} {flashbacks of reading the Ryan air thread :hmm:)

Stay away i say

Yeah, indeed do a FI course and forget about some great suggestion to join a T/R course in UK in a fantastic British type rating school in the South Between southampton and Bristol which finally will get your money and leave in the street. :{

Good luck!

[gone till november]

Number

In the wise words of Captain John Lee.

1) Never refuse a job

2) Never refuse a jet job

3) Never refuse command


You are about to transgress rule no. 1. If you follow rule no.1 then its likely that rule no. 3 will follow quickly. In time rule no.2 will be open to you to follow or not. In time rule no. 3 will come about again on the back of rule no. 2.

Then at FL390 from the left hand seat on your way to a few days in the Caribbean or wherever, you'll say. Hmmmmmm what was that post im made on Pprune must look it up some time.:cool:

Vortex thing

Well said!:ok:


Number please dont give up or give in. Find a away.

This next comment is not directed at you but a view of what ive seen recently.

It just seems that too many people are getting into this job that aren't really committed or have a deep love of the total thrill of flying for your beer and chicken tikka massala tokens. The first hurdle and it's, "im gonna give up and move into something else", because, "no one's beating down my door to offer me a job". For some its takes years to get a job and in my case it was 7 from CPL issue to first commercial job and never gave up.......not even once. Each set back was just another problem to win over.

This industry has changed so much and we all have to adapt and this is where some have problems.

Your problems are just another hurdle to over come and you know that resistance to flying is futile.

Good luck and i hope you make the right decision and if you do safe flying.

[IrishJetdriver]

Very wise words at a time that aviation employers are starting to do some number crunching.

At age 34, if you don't get employed pretty quickly I suspect that the market will not be available to you again for some while. By that point you might be 37 and now things can get really difficult.

Please consider that even though it is not a good deal, it is still a deal and is infinitely less expensive than potentially having wasted all the money and time you spent getting to this point because you can't get a job.

Experience is everything in this game. Once you have experience you are head and shoulders above those without it...REGARDLESS OF AGE.

Seriously consider your position. If you paid for your TR you won't be bonded and WITH EXPERIENCE you can probably find a better deal sooner rather than later.

The good old days are gone.