OFT up front payment?

[Duffer2007]

Hi everyone,

Just got an email from OFT telling me i have to pay $9000 up front for my faa ppl? And 6311 every 30 days to make up the cost of my course and hours building and accomodation etc.

Has anyone who's been to oft payed this much up front?

I have told them I'm not happy at all with this and wish to pay in installments!

Ian

[heli_port]

NEVER PAY UP FRONT :ok:

[v6g]

Just to echo the previous posters comment,

Never, ever, pay up front for flight training.

There is no sound reason why a school needs money up-front (other than maybe a small amount to cover a visa application is you're training abroad). If a training school is asking for money up-front then that's a sure sign that they've got financial problems and won't be around for long.

[geordiejet]

Agreed with the above. From somone who has paid upfront 3 times before - don't do it! Learn from people like me (unfortunately, there are a lot of us!) - who used to think 'it will never happen to me', when it comes to getting shafted by flight schools.

Be especially careful on cancellation fees. They may quote one figure (take one of my previous flight schools - 25%), but the actualy cost of cancelling is an awful lot more. I paid £2600 for a cpl, and got back just £1500. Way more than 25%!!

You could be held to ransom, blackmailed, forced into things, and if it does all turn nasty, you have no legal footing to stand on, and neither the FAA or the CAA give a to$$ how badly you get treated.

I've met a few people on my way who try to take the legal option/contacting the authorities, but none of them have got any money back whatsoever.

Please, pay the 5/10% more and PAYG, it will save you a lot of money, and grief in the end.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You really are serious about persisting with this training outfit for the most fundamental part of your pilot skills?

Have you ever bought really cheap shoes..?


WWW

[potkettleblack]

I went to a smallish school at BOH airport on the sunny south coast (allegedly:)) of the UK for my ME, CPL and IR. From memory I think it was Friday that was their pay day. We would each get a statement of our weeks flying costs and duly handed over the credit card. Note how I said cc and not cash or cheque. Therefore you could cancel the transaction if you ran into any problems in the forthcoming days. All that they required you to do was to be in credit at any time. In reality most of us kept a few hundred quid in credit with them but if we owed it was never really a problem as the card was always there to be handed over when we were back on terra firma.

Don't believe all the marketing mumbo jumbo that these "big" schools put out. It IS NOT normal to hand over large sums of cash for a service that they haven't yet delivered. Nor is it the norm in any other walks of life.

Ask them if they have paid their instructors/rent/maintenance/fuel etc six months in advance to substantiate why they need so much cash up front. Its purely a ploy so that you won't leave when things start going pear shaped. It is also a classic sign of insolvency which I saw time and time again when in my former life I worked as an accountant.

I would also hasten to add that with costs spirallling and the number of trainees potentially falling that some of these schools could well fall onto hard times. Which gives more reason for them to want your business more than ever and for you to drive a hard bargain.

[geordiejet]

Potkettleblack has a very good point. Something I forgot to mention. The fact that if they do go A over T, you have handed over quite a fair bit of money, and you will join a long list of creditors waiting for a refund that never comes. Even in the UK, I've read about this happening to people. Over in the USA - you have less of a chance. What I love about FTOs in Florida - they have legals powers over you when you are here in the UK (so I'm lead to believe) if you mess up, but, if they screw you over, and breach their contract, there is very little you can do about it.

Paying on a credit card is safer, but you obviously need enough credit to do so. Just pay on the credit card if poss, and then pay it off.

If the worst happens, getting the money back from CC is a lot easier than getting a refund on a wire transfer. But not paying up front is the best option! :ok:

[SD.]

One reason why you sholudn't pay up front, no matter how large the school is.........

http://www.nytimes.com/inc_com/inc1202227251358.html?ref=smallbusiness

More importantly, if they have your money and a problem arises then you don't have a leg to stand on. Most I would pay is 10% as deposit to book the course and then 'pay as you go'.

Never pay up front guys.

[Capt Loop]

I agree with all the comments.

Never ever pay up front, especially that amount of money. Like others I too lost loads for an instructors course in the UK back in 1996,

Also you might want to look for other schools other than OFT.

If your British you will get the s*** aircraft and be based on the arse end of Kissimmee airport. Its only a 45 + minute walk down a really dodgy "trailer park trash" road in blinking hot weather to the airport.!!!!! Not the new offices they have taken over from American Flyers at Kissimmee. They "might" have a bicycle you can borrow, but I doubt it will be safe.

Also if you sorted out your own accomodation you might find it a LOT cheaper. I know for a fact that OFT make a small fortune on the accomodation.

[chrisbl]

Paying up front is a mugs game. The trouble is most of the US JAR schools are doing the same so it is very tempting to go along with it.

Just ask yourself this question. If the discount for paying upfront is 10% for a 4 week course, then that is equivilent to an annual interest rate of approx 60%.

Now assuming that this is the case, what business pays that much interest and to whom? The answers are "someone desperate" and "someone not that reputable".

The truth is more like the typical "bargain scam". Overprice the product in the first place to "discount" it and make it look good value.

In either case the advise is to avoid, the former because the whole think looks flakey and in the second case because it looks like sharp practice. The aim is to prey on people who let rational thinking go on holiday the moment flying enters the thoughts.

This forum is awash with people who admit to having let the flying bug overwhelm commonsense and then have lost out.

Admittedly there are people who have got away with paying up front - perhaps they were lucky.

It is impossible to insure against these risks and that probably is the most telling comment.

[IRISHPILOT]

Chris, Ian is NOT doing the JAR training. He wants to do an FAA PPL, and rightly so, as it would be stupidity to do a JAA PPL if you continue on to CPL. Nor is the hour building JAR.

However, Ian, USD9000 is roughly what you pay for a JAA PPL outside the UK, so I guess accommodation and transport (possibly your flight) is included? If not, it may be worth looking at other schools.

And do take the advice and don't pay in advance. - keep a positive balance on your account with them, by all means, but not by much. - A school that does not agree with this is not serious. Or in serious trouble. Or wants to bond you.

good luck with whatever you decide to do! IP

[BigGrecian]

Never mind not paying up front - which you shouldn't but :

$9000 for my faa ppl

Your also being absolutely shafted!

[KeithTo]

Just another echo from me of NEVER EVER PAY UP FRONT!
I just came through my PPL, Hour building etc and never once paid up front, paying as you go is the safest and only sensible option

[geordiejet]

Also you might want to look for other schools other than OFT.

Yes. Do a lot of research. And be 100% certain you want to train there. And complete the entire course.

But, remember, "British owned/operated" means sweet FA when you are abroad.

[Julian]

$9000 for an FAA PPL !!!!!!!! I think they have seen you coming! Look around you can get much much cheaper than that.

As said, dont pay up front, instead offer to keep you account in credit by paying $500-$1000 blocks, that way if anything does happen your losses are minimal. It seems from reading posts on several flight schools on here the latest trick is to get you to pay up front not because they are going bust, but because they struggling with getting everyone thorugh the course and if they have your money you cant leave and go elsewhere.

J.

[Big_Mach]

Ian

A group of us went over to OFT several years ago to do some hour building followed by the JAA multi-engine CPL. We got the usually "pay early" spiel - well 6 guys flashing $15,000 each must have had them salivating. Anyway we kept stalling until we at least arrived in Florida, then gave them a token amount to keep them happy, with the promise of paying them in instalments, but still early, as we progressed.

Now, while OFT does have it's problems (read the threads ad nauseum), they did deliver on getting the licences - not 100%, maybe more like 80% i.e. there was a fair amount of badgering to ensure we flew and, inevitably, it cost more.

However, hour building was a completely different story, and if it wasn't for Sunstate I think I would still be battling with the flying programme board to get a 152 for a couple of hours!

As for accommodation, OFT initially put us in the Best Western for around $50 a night (we shared rooms though) but after a few nights we went for a drive and ended up hiring a house in one of the gated communities off Poinciana Blvd. Obviously being in a group and having a car helped on that front but, bluntly, a car is a big asset over there.

So, the point of my story - consider seriously Sunstate Aviation (http://www.sunstateaviation.com/) if you want to fly in Kissimmee. As a caveat I would say I have no idea what their instruction is like and there isn't a popcorn machine! (NB This is several years ago now so things might have changed):
It is FAA approved (which is currently all you need)
They didn't ask to be paid up front (you just need to be in credit before they let you fly)
There were no credit card charges (so you are covered by your CC company if things go wrong)
There was no fuel surcharge
The aircraft are newer and better maintained
Their flying programme wasn't as packed meaning you could generally fly when you wanted to
It was cheaper than OFT, even without OFT's surcharges

[chrisbl]

Chris, Ian is NOT doing the JAR training. He wants to do an FAA PPL, and rightly so, as it would be stupidity to do a JAA PPL if you continue on to CPL. Nor is the hour building JAR.

I know that but OFT is a US JAR school who also do FAA stuff. Its the US JAR schools that are the worst for some of this upfront nonsense.

[Duffer2007]

Hi again everyone,

Just to let you know the $9000 includes accomodation for 13 weeks.
I really don't think I'm being shafted those of you who say I am, its within my budget the thing is i was just worried about how the quality of service could decline if all my money has been paid!

Ian:}:}:}

[geordiejet]

worried about how the quality of service could decline if all my money has been paid.

It can, and probably will. Based on my experience, the service is great before you get there. When it comes to getting money from you, schools are very keen.

But once they have it, and once you get to the school, things are very different. I'm still waiting for a simple signed form from my last school, and two months have passed. So, I can't do anything until I get this form, despite many emails, and phonecalls that never get answered.

However, when it came to actually getting my payment, they were emailing/phoning me every day for a week!:ugh:

[KandiFloss]

I went to OFT, wish that I hadn't now. I was told by JP that I had to pay up front when I arrived and that if I didn't then he "could'nt help me" and he also went on to say that if I decided to go to another flying school then he would have canx my visa. I now wish that i'd got in touch with Cabair after getting back and told them how OFT was being run and that it was unacceptable to blackmail people.

I would never go back there.

[gfunc]

If you are only interested in the FAA PPL plus hours have you considered many other flying schools?

There are a large number of schools around the USA that are authorized to take on international students. There are many places much more interesting than the horrible sprawling central Florida region to learn to fly.

The place I rent from (Upstate NY) has folks from overseas and it is considerable cheaper than OFT, plus since it isn't a pilot factory there is lots of a/c availability and you'll get much better attention from the staff. I believe that there is no upfront requirement, you just pay as you go and remain in credit. Plus its a small city and accomodation is cheaper than holidayville, USA.

If you are not interested in the JAR stuff, there is no need to tie yourself to the small number of well-discussed schools in Florida. If you haven't already done so I suggest you shop around a bit, I'm sure you'll find the region to suit you and you'll enjoy getting the PPL a great deal more!

Cheers,

Gareth.