Integrity : Where has it gone?

[KIFIS]

The subject matter (3rd October)and this response were originally both on "Rumours and News". "Far East" is more appropriate.
KIFIS

There is a post running on this forum dated 3rd October that is slagging and insulting individual pilots of Singapore Airlines. After reading what is being said it makes me wonder what is happening to the world of aviation. (It also makes me feel ashamed.) Surely these personal attacks are hitting below the belt and don’t belong in our honored profession. In days gone by a lot of these Singapore pilots flew with me as F/O and I could not have wished for better crew. They were good operators then and have proved themselves as men by rising to the top of the ladder and helping to make Singapore Airlines the most financially successful airline of all time. They could “ cut the mustard “ unlike the disenchanted writers who are floundering around in the flatlands (and look like staying there). These same “ disenchanted “ seem to have forgotten they were guests in Singapore and really should have learned to fit in. Perhaps they should never have left the side of their mother as they seem to find it all too hard out there. I feel sorry for them but I will not excuse them for blaming others for their life’s failure.
Perhaps I was lucky to have been part of past aviation where there was honor and integrity. Where has it gone?

KIFIS



[This message has been edited by KIFIS (edited 05 October 2000).]

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

" A lot of these Singapore Pilots flew with me as F/O"

That says it all.

[titan]

KIFIS
Maybe you were one of those great tyrant captains of old where the FO was forbidden to object to you. Their silence was a sign of the harmony in your cockpit. Well those lovely little boys grew up to be just like you - they do you proud for they too rule like tyrants and believe that they are beyond human frailty.

or maybe, KIFIS, nostalgia just isn't what it use to be :}

[ironbutt57]

yes, all of us as expats are "guests" in our respective host countries..mine is most pleasant and receptive, and we are treated as invited guests...how would your invited dinner guests feel if you shat on their dinner plate, then threatened to sue them when they choose to leave? yes I agree..where is the integrity?

[Slasher]

The words "honor" and "integrity" are not part of the SIA vocabulary.

Invited guest my arse. At SQ your an inmate in a bloodey jackboot POW camp. Ha! Im treated better here in Nam....by ex-VC commies!

[Gladiator]

KIFIS your dear Singapore and SIA could not cut the mustard and treat the guests in the right manner.

Why do you think we all left? Has it not occured to you that may be there is something wrong with your system.

In Singapore there is no such thing as honor, integrity, loyalty.

Only MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.

Was it not the leader of Singapore Lee Kuan Yew that said, "productivity and success in Singaoore is a function of anxiety"?

Well I am sorry I do not think anxiety to increase productivity belongs in the cockpit of a B747-400 with 400 souls.

Now unlike many others I am more outspoken and I want you to think about this. You people in Singapore and SIA are just not nice to each other.

Be nice to one another. Do not make back stabbing something to be proud of. When I attended SIA's first CRM course in BKK the instructor opened his speach with a description of 'SAKKA' (the license plate on my car says, 'NO SAKKA').

Now what the hell is this SAKKA crap. Why can't you people just treat each other with respect and get on with your life and your jobs.

I am sorry it has turned out this way. You have to evaluate your system of how you view compassion. The feelings of ex-SIA pilots as you described is not isolated to one or two individuals. It is the majority, and if so, you know what that means.

[This message has been edited by Gladiator (edited 05 October 2000).]

[Slasher]

The SIA Invited Guest
---------------------

SIA: Your invited for dinner tomorrow night
Guest: Oh thats great!
SIA: Just sign this bond before you come over for dinner lah.
Guest: Oh ok. What for?
SIA: Just in case you decide to not finish the food served to you, we want you to pay for what you dont eat. Its just formality.
Guest: Hmm...bit strange but yeh ok seems fair enough. Im hungry anyway so Im not going nowhere. [sign sign sign]
SIA: Thank you LAH!

Guest: [kock knock] Hello! Hi mate! Can we come in? [extends hand]
SIA: [rudely pointing and ignoring open hand] Sit over there.
Guest: Ok. Oh this is my wife Patty and our 2 kids....
SIA: I am not "mate". My name is Captain Sir. You must show proper r'spec.
Guest: Oh sorry Captain Sir!
SIA: And take off your shoes in my house!
Guest: [still trying to smile] Oh Im sorry again! Still learning my way around I guess!
SIA: Now shutup and eat your food!
Guest: [taken aback but still managing brave face] Hmmm...looks yummey! Did I mention Patty walked around Singapore today and saw..
SIA: Shutup and eat your food.
Guest: Um...Captain Sir have I offended you in some way?
SIA: Shutup and eat your food.
Guest: Er....why are these noodles cold and stale while your family members are eating fresh hot ones?
SIA: [angrily] Are you insulting the food served in my house?
Guest: No Captain Sir of course not.
SIA: Then shutup and eat your food.

Mrs SIA: Dessert time!
SIA FAMILY: Yippee!
Guest: [sniffing] Mmmm! Smells delicous!
SIA: None for you.
Guest: Er...pardon?
SIA: None for you!
Guest: Huh?
SIA: [hesitating] Er.......SQ Family losing money. Must save money. No dessert for you.
Guest: But I signed a bond to pay for uneaten food! Do I have to pay?
SIA: We decide that later.
Guest: Whos "we"?
SIA: Me.

Just then the Lims from next door arive for a quick visit.

SIA: Lim ah! So good to see you one! Here have some desert just made!
Guest: Umm...hello there!
SIA:
Lim: [ignores and scowls at Guests comment]

Guest and his family retire quietly to sit in a corner trying to stay out of trouble and figure out exactley what they did wrong to offend SIA.

One of SIAs fat little obese brats has been "observing" (read [i]staring at!) Guest as he complains to his wife about how SIA seems so hard to get along with. After the Lims leave the SIA kid goes up to his dad and wispers in his ear, making sure Guest can see him doing it. SIA pats his son on the back for a job well done.

SIA: You not happy here?
Guest: Well um....I guess we are.
SIA: [angrily] It is rude in my family to ignore visitors!
Guest: But...but....
SIA: You dont show proper r'spec! Captain Lim velly important to SIA famery! Why you not introduce yourself?
Guest: Um....look I think it was a mistake coming here. I think we should leave......
SIA: Pay up for dessert!
Guest: What?
SIA: Pay for dessert you not eat!
Guest: WHAT? You said no dessert for me or my wife and kids!
SIA: Exakkery, correc correc.
Guest: Well? Then why do I have to pay?
SIA: Written here on Bond in ink. You signed here?
Guest: Yeh but...
SIA: Pay up!
Guest: Jesus I cant!
SIA: Well stay and shutup. Here...eat this what dog didden want.
Guest: Christ I just cant believe this is bloodey happening! Ok then we will have to stay overnight if we cant leave while you hold this bloodey Bond over my head!
SIA: Then here sign new bond.
Guest: WHAT?
SIA: New bond for breakfast morra morring.
Guest: No way fella! Im OUTA HERE!
SIA: Then pay up for not eating dessert!
Guest: Get stuffed!
SIA: Darwing, only serve stale food to Guest morrow morring. He spend all evening annoy me and insult me and my famery lah! He get velly hard time in my house from now on! Make sure he sign new Bond first before he eat!"

So, is it any wonder we cant stand the snot-nosed pr**ks?

[Gladiator]

Slasher you are worst than Gladiator. I am on the floor laughing my head off.

If there was such thing as PPRuNe awards, the above article takes the cake.

Aah cake-a, were got cake.

[ironbutt57]

man slasher...that's a terrific post...let's see if Kaptin M has a rebuttal for that one.... :) :) :)

[Gladiator]

ironbutt57 Agent M being propoganda officer for Singapore government will read Slasher's post and say to himself,

"so-a what's wrong with the SIA family-a, normal-a, never mind-a, counter post anyway lah".

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

Slasher great post, but what about the bond for the toothpick after the meal, refusing to do so resulting in immediate termination, followed by the ritual tooth suck.

Don't forget the bank guarantee that was given back to the pilot once his little finger nail had grown long enough to pick all those orifices.

[titan]

Slasher - you are a master of the pen, a God among men. Well done.

Hope you don't mind, but this really should be copied over to Rumours as well.

Thanks for a great laugh!

[Kaptin M]

M reads Slasher's post, and casts [his] mind back to the time when he was accepted as a lowly 6 1/2 thousand [total time], 3,000 hours airline jet transport time F/O, accepted as meeting the minimumm criteria for joining SQ......now remember that "the late Gladiator [alias Ayatollah] were found "acceptable" as second officers with far, far less time!

SIA: So YOU want to join US????

Guest: Yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!!!!

SIA: Are you sure? Why would you want to leave your safe, ICAO-conforming, US-ALPA negotiated, FAA-approved job, to become a Singapore Airlines F/O?

Guest: Please...please...please..take me away from all this! You of ALL the Airlines can see that I deserve to be recognized as a SUPERIOR being, worthy of promotion to the ranks of a 747 pilot!!!!

SIA: Well yes, [you thick arab....coll] Aligadtor, hhhhhhumph....and as you consider yourself, to be worth SO much, you might like to prove it......in other words, put your money where your [big] mouth is!

G[lad]uest: O.K. Here's $225k, just to prove I'm REALLY hot sh!t!! If you can prove otherwise, it's your's for the taking!

And SQ took it!! Because the deceased Gladdie flunked out!


[This message has been edited by Kaptin M (edited 07 October 2000).]

[Gladiator]

Nice try at a come back post agent M, but not worthy of Slasher's accurate post.

It has now become evident that Gladiator has indeed gotten underneath agent M's skin. Notice how agent M's post is aimed at Gladiator only.

Keep on trying agent M. Like I said before, non-pilots are welcome to participate on PPRuNe.

The Aytaollah will rockandrolla.

[noodles]

Kaptin you are a total loser.

[411A]

GLADIATOR: Did you really "flunk out"?

[titan]

KaptinM:
I thought there was hope, if only for the mere sake of hope itself. I was wrong. M, you are too far gone; technically brain dead - its time to pull the plug on the machine.

[ironbutt57]

Kaptin M....oron

[Goldwing2000]

Boy, Slasher you're right on the money!! I haven't had such a good laugh for yonks. Keep them coming. :)
Agent M, as the man said good try but way off target,I suppose once brain dead always brain dead.

If you do what you always do, you get what you always got!

[A Few Good Men]

I propose new name for kaptin M, how about Kampong M.

[nice_beaver]

Quite possibly the most humourous and accurate depiction i've read followed by the most desperate and inaccurate response. Nice on Slasher et al the opposition are flagging hopelessly.

[Kaptin M]

I also had a laugh at Slasher's post, although I know that he did have a free meal at SQ. That's right isn't it, Slash?!! My earlier post was not in "opposition" to Slasher's, but one which followed in a similar vein.

In any country, a foreigner who tries to tell the locals how things should be done ["this is how we do it at home."], gets right up the noses of the locals - be it Singapore, the US, or Australia, this type of person is a square peg, in round hole, and the best place for them is back OUT. He's happy to be gone, and the host country's population are less one whinger and whiner.

So KIFIS, the postings and the personal attacks you have read, slagging off at different individuals, were made by one [Gladiator] whose INTEGRITY was proven to be ZERO a couple of weeks ago. That's correct, isn't it Glad....it was on the sword of Integrity, that you lost your credibility. In an effort to bleet his innocence to all and sundry, he has shat on many, with threats of disclosing this or that about others, when his [Glad's] shortcomings were aired.

KIFIS, don't judge the rest of the pilot group by one smart-ass, know-all, with a loud mouth, who has to date successfully reached nowhere. Aviation is a small world, and the "what goes around, comes around" adage is particularly true, which I'm sure you saw during your working life in Airlines.

[Gladiator]

The usual BS from the newly named Kampong M (thank you Good men).

It is all about the fact that you do not like Gladiator. Tough Agent M. In the world of free I am free to say as I wish.

You are sour grapes because SIA is busted, and so are you.

All of this started with Singapore Airlines vs. Gladiator parts 1,2 and 3. You are free to agrue the points as presented in the court of law.

I know you will not because you do not understand them (you have been busted and proven never to have been an SIA crewmember), therefore you do not know jack sh*t about these matters.

The facts are you are only here to counter us former SIA pilots. Singapore Airlines vs. Gladiator documents are here to stay. They are permanent records and one day, SIA as much makes a move in the wrong direction, those records will be read on CNN.

Learn to live with it. Send this message to your superiors agent M, you F**k with us, we F**k with you back.

[Kaptin M]

Glad you really are a slow learner. ALL of this diatriabe started the day YOU signed your agreement with SIA....EVERYTHING after that day is a consequence of YOU making a monumental stuff up of your life, but trying to blame EVERYONE else for your inabilities. It's been a costly lesson for you, and you're carrying on like an immature brat.

Life is a series of learning curves, but you're still stuck at the bottom of your first setback.

Integrity, amongst other things, means having the balls to admit that YOU stuffed up , and not slandering as many people and things associated with Singapore, in attempts to justify your mistakes.

It doesn't concern me when you make accusations such as:
Agent M being propoganda officer for Singapore government, and,
(you have been busted and proven never to have been an SIA crewmember),
etc.
It DOES once again prove to me, and those who know my identity, that YOU [b]tell lies to try to re-inforce your "arguments". I enjoy exposing your untruths [frequently] Glad. You're one of my regular sources of entertainment, along with fishing.

The difference between that and you, is I KNOW I'll always get a bite from YOU!!! :)

[Gordo]

Beautiful piece of work Slasher!!.


THE TRUTH HURTS DOESN'T IT !!!

[ironbutt57]

speaking of slow learners..Kaptin M...oron still hasn't figured out that agreements must be upheld by BOTH parties involved, he always skirts this "minor" detail...wonder if his "r's" and "l's" are as clear when he talks as they are when he types.....

[Gladiator]

Most have reached the conclusion that you are a moron kampong M.

You are busted.

[Kaptin M]

Those who are unable to communicate effectively, and/or produce a logical argument, resort to personal, puerile abuse, eg:
Most have reached the conclusion that you are a moron kampong M.;

Kaptin M....oron.......although I have seen some reasonable posts on R&N from you, Ferrarse - did you write them? [btw, Putang ina mo :)]

[ironbutt57]

yes Kaptin M....ororn I did indeed...most folks who make postings will at least discuss ALL points of a topic, but when it comes to Glad's postings..you seem quite keen to avoid the fact that he has proven that SQ's dealings with him were not in compliance with his employment contract..you focus instead on the fact that Glad broke/terminated his end of it...but why did he and many others do the same? Why do you refuse to even consider this...the reason is obvious to most of us here...you are totally full of **** !

[Kaptin M]

ironbutt, I think you've come into this discussion a couple of months after many, many long posts wrt Gladdies situation. You could go back thru' the archives if you ARE interested.

The bone of contention is not Glad's postings on the court proceedings, but the persistent slagging off, which is a source of entertainment for some - yes, I enjoyed Slasher's post, and of course it holds even more appeal for those who feel they need to justify leaving SQ before the end of their contract. I'm just as sure a Singaporean who despises angmo's could write an entertaining article, which would show us in a bad light.

Furthermore, some of the statements made by Glad are simply incredulous, and get right up the noses of some of the decent expats still working in SQ, and obviously some of the retired guys, as well, as evidenced by KIFIS' post. But Gladdie doesn't seem to realise, nor care, whose toes he steps on.

He, and to a certain lesser extent, titan, have taken SQ's actions to recover the monies OWED to them, as a personal affront. SIA is a big, Asian company, and anyone who has worked in Asia for any period of time will realise that everything is done rote [to try to remove the human error factor] - and as long as everything fits into place at the prescribed place and time, the "machine" will run ad infinitum.

The point of the above explanation is to indicate WHY SQ followed the procedure they did......there is no scope [tolerance] for individuals to deviate from the set down course - each individual is "formatted". So, when Glad, titan, et al decided to prematurely end their contracts, they were taken out of the A category, and put into the B basket. Following the court proceedings, they were probably placed in the D compartment [the C classification would have been given during the hearing(s)]. So everything is treated very sterilely, by the companies - which IS different from almost all western companies.

Slasher's post highlights this attitude, but he forgot to mention the three magic letters that ALL expat pilots learn very early in the peace, to avoid getting the same non-meaningful reply to a question - OIC. I could relate a funny story, where a mate used this "train on a track" method of thinking to turn it against them, but it'd take up too much space for now.

So, ironbutt, that's why I might appear to rein Glad in every now and then. He IS pi55ing off a lot of guys who have worked for SQ a lot longer than he did, and is not achieving anything other than a bad name for himself.

[Gladiator]

Freedom of speach is what it is all about. Kampong M and his superiors are still in shock. All those years of controlling information, and all of the sudden the internet shows up.

You should thank me for bringing the information to you as it happened word for word. Normally you get the candy coated version, custom tailored and edited for Singapore viewing (proven in Singapore Airlines vs. Mike DeMarco case).

Anyone can access this information through the US court system. If anyone wishes to do so, please e-mail, [email protected].

Kampong M has never worked at SIA, at least as a flight crewmember. This has been proven.
So what the hell does he know about SIA contracts.

So who is he? Perhaps he is Lee Kuan Yew himself, may me he is Goh talk kock.

Perhaps he or she is a member of SIA's legal team in Singapore. Sour grapes over the fact that Gladiator kicked ass.

So far all I have gotten is thank you e-mails from strangers, passengers, SIA wannabes, and the very expats that kampong M is refering to. So do not represent a group of people you know nothing about.

Do I have a big mouth? You damn right I do, otherwise I would not have the balls to challenge SIA.

Kampong M understands the word "contract" but turns deaf to the rest of the conditions and provisions of the even Mickey Mouse laws in Singapore. Do you need the chapter from Singapore employment law again?

If any person wishes to challenge any of Gladiator's legal claims, we will discuss the points one by one. Any person who claims they are lies, half truths, etc , please let me know which point, and we will discuss it.

I will produce documentation supporting every point, one by one.

Otherwise, you are welcome to stick around anyway (even non-pilots).

Gladiator has challenged SIA. I will continue to post all the legal papers. Any person that does not like this can proceed to take legal action in the court of law.

I have no problem taking your money (need to upgrade my Ferrari).

[ironbutt57]

well then Kaptin M..if yourself and your "friends" are disturbed by these postings....THEN DON'T READ THEM !!! it's not like Glad's posting them in the crew room at SQ...it's a public forum where many people come to read BOTH sides of a topic..(probably not used to that are you?) we like reading all sides and views of a variety of topic's and Glad's are most informative and well documented..you offer no other rebuttal other that constant nagging and personal attacks....if you don't like it leave, or stay n and provide me with more entertainment

[Capt Pax]

I frequent this forum to find out what is going on in the aviation world surrounding Singapore, and all I ever seem to see is Gladiator, Titan, Slasher, Kaptain M, and Ironbutt having a go at one another.

If I was Danny, I would restrict access to you five strictly to Jet Blast where your "conversations" truly belong. You collectively add "zero" to this forum.

Apparently the Far East aviation community runs like a fairly well-oiled machine, barring a few disgruntled expat pilots.

[Gladiator]

Restrict our speech?

Is that what they taught you in the USAF? A lot of people shed their blood defending freedom of speech. No doubt some of them were your friends.

Perhaps you have lived in Singapore too long.

Observers such as Capt. Pax, Kaptin M, etc, are welcome and free to express their opinions.

However, unless you have walked the walk, you are not qualified to talk the talk.

[smith]

Gladiator:

There is no such word as "busted". Past tense for bust is burst. Check your dictionary.

[Gladiator]

Thank you smith. I checked and you are correct.

I guess it would fall under a slang term in North America.

[Slasher]

Capt Pax it is my form to have a go at the argument and not the arguer. If you bother to read my posts in this thread and related others you will find I strictley stick to the bone of contention namely SIA.
I also agree with Gladiator because you give the strong impresion that you have no firsthand experience in any Far East aviation let alone SQ. This is proven by qualification with your using the word "apparently", which therefore cancels out that relevant part your post and causing it to have no real substance.
Just having a general slag-off at posters is one thing, but to put forward an effective opposing argument you should thoroughly research the subject matter properley beforehand if you wish to be taken seriously.

And yes KM I did survive SIA up till then using the OIC method. But THE most efective tool I employed for survival was realising there mentality was that of imature kids and applied the apropriate psychology to cope with it.
Also I resigned at a time when (luckily) SIA had just projected it had too many expat FO numbers in the coming years (which was why I was released from the Bond and BG) about a year before the oficial grandstanded anouncement.

[titan]

Capt Pax - there are plenty of other forums for you to go and drool over. Please leave ours alone if you are incapable of adding anything informative, witty or humourous.

Smith - where would the world be without the likes of you?! Thankyou for your thoughtful input.

Hey M, where are your twin cheek buddies Farside and Whiskery? You're getting creamed, better call for backup.

[Slasher]

Witty or humorous Titan? Then just click HERE (http://www.derekandclive.com/albums.ram) to listen to a conversation between Gladiator and Kaptin M if they should ever meet! :)

Go to track 26, then move slider to the 3min 17sec point and start listening from there!

[This message has been edited by Slasher (edited 10 October 2000).]

[Gordo]

Holy mother of all sh*t
That's just bl**dy hilarious!!!!

Aaahh.... the sounds of a healthy and mature adult debate..

[Whiskery]

Hi Tits,

I'm still here but I don't think KM needs any help when debating you and Habibi.

I hear you have sacked your legal advisors - that will save the legal fees,but the bond still has to be paid.

Enjoyed reading your little black book on the adventures in National Joke - that will be a bigger seller than Gladys book !!!

Keep the faith :]

[Whiskery]

Slasher - brilliant! Haven't heard that Derek & Clive tape for nearly a decade!

[Chill]

Classic! How f*****g apt.

Well done Slash, what else do you have tucked up your sleeve?

------------------
Chill Out!

[fugitive]

Good one slasher,but where did the wheels fall off with the KAPTIN ,did his backbone go down the toilet with the rest of his Chinese meal.
Before you respond KAPTIN,I am not a racist and do have many friends from all parts of Asia and Australia and the UK and the USA etc.
As a pilot I would think we were of a great fraternity,I hope so.
I would hope that a criticism of SQ is not against Asians I would hope that criticising Ansett or QF is not against all Australians but against the companies or govt`s that play us off against each other.
If I meet another pilot ,no matter what race or gender or religion etc,I would like to say,great we all belong to the same club;aviation( I also include ATC,engineers and all others in the industry)
By the way,pprune is our only free to air outlet(not kissing backside,but thanks for the opportunity Danny)

[PILLOW]

The Sunday Herald Sun ( Victoria ,
Australia ) yesterday produced a report
on the world 20 safest airlines and the
20 worst . Unfortunately for Gladys , SIA
is rated number 19 from the top and Alaskan is not rated
. He should consider flying for Air Canada which is nbr 1 or American , United or Continental which is rated 6 , 7 and 14 respectively.
He can also consider coming Downunder
and fly for Ansett or Qantas which is rated second and third .


[This message has been edited by PILLOW (edited 24 October 2000).]

[Gladiator]

Thank you Pillow, your input is noted. However I am fine where I am. Thanks again.