Jettison over Berlin

[Comanche]

Heard an AF flight in the air last night with medical emergency requesting ATC permission to dump fuel, which was denied as the a/c was over Berlin. However, Capt insisted he'd dump fuel beforing landing 08 (Tegel?) and said there was no time for the ATC suggested radar vectors away from city. ATC reluctantly agreed. I am not a long-haul pilot widebody, so this is out of my depth, but can anyone enlighten me why it is not possible to simply land overweight and have a heavy landing check done, rather than jeopardising the short -and long term health of the Berlin population, with carcinogenic hydrocarbon compounds lingering in the environment for years to come?

[NigelOnDraft]

So long as the dumping is done at a reasonable altitude, almost all will evaporate and disperse well before it gets to earth... and that which does get to earth will be blown by the wind - so "over the city" becomes academic.

I am almost certain the residents at Berlin are far more at risk from the millions of cars / buildings spewing out combustion products than a small amount of unburnt hydrcarbons that may, or may not, have arrived in Berlin.

Landing overweight is "emergency" only. The medical situation may have lent itself to that, but not at the expense of using a fitted Fuel Dump system...

NoD

[Kerosene Kraut]

"last night?"
AF 0184 enroute from CDG to HKG landet at 4 pm local at Tegel airport. Might have been another one?

[EFIScomp]

Comanche,
The problem of landing a heavy over weight is not a structural one (if it is a twin, it has to be able to land at max take off mass for certification, not sure about 4 engine requirments). The main issue is the brakes. If you land heavy, the brakes will overheat and you will lose a lot of your fusible plugs and therefore probably will not be able to taxi off the runway.
So what you have to consider when thinking about landing overweight for a medical emergency is that if you do land over weight you will probably not be able to vacate the runway and maybe even evacuate if you overrun or your brakes catch fire. This will not help the poor person who is dying in the back!
The best bet is to spend a few minutes dumping fuel and then land as near to max landing weight as possible!
Hope this helps!

[Kerosene Kraut]

Maybe you might wanna go to Leipzig instead. Longer runways, less traffic, hospitals around and AF regional offices.

[M.Mouse]

The main issue is the brakes. If you land heavy, the brakes will overheat and you will loose(sic) alot(sic) of your fusible plugs and therefore probably will not be able to taxi off the runway.

Complete and utter nonsense.

[Captain Jumbo]

How completely and utterly patronising.

It depends on actual aircraft, actual weight, and actual runway length.

[rmac]

I know a biz jet operator in Asia who having lost their fusible plugs have not only been able to taxi but also continue to operate the aircraft until its next inspection :ugh:

[Double Zero]

Ok M.Mouse, but what's the solution ?

Landing overweight seems a larger risk to the aircraft, its' occupants, and quite possibly the local residents.

I'm not so sure about the lack of stuctural worries, and would think the brakes etc a low priority - after all the chap sounds a bit of a hero to me, he by-passed ATC B.S. in attempting to save a life...

Anyway, re. Berlin, "they started it !" ( please take that as 'tongue in cheek' ) !

Actually Kerosene Krauts' suggestion seems eminently sensible - maybe such local knowledge was not available on board, or indeed failed to be passed on by ATC ?

[Interflug]

Maybe you might wanna go to Leipzig instead. Longer runways, less traffic, hospitals around and AF regional offices.
Within 5 min by car from Tegel Airport there are two major hospitals (Virchow+DRK) well equipped for emergencies. Landing in Leipzig you have a 20-30 min drive to the university hospital. So for the passenger Berlin was a better option. Also while Berlin is a densely populated city, except for the last app. 8 nm of approach to Tegel from both sides you fly over mostly woods and farmland.

Because of the proximity of good hospitals, Tegel is probably one of the best airports worldwide for medical diversions if you don't have a specialized helicopter in standby.

[Double Zero]

Interflug,

Thanks, that makes a lot of things clearer - and the relevant Captain's decision seems righter than ever !

[Airbubba]

...rather than jeopardising the short -and long term health of the Berlin population, with carcinogenic hydrocarbon compounds lingering in the environment for years to come?

The Berliners smoke like chimneys, drink like fish and eat high cholesterol meals. I don't think a little jet fuel will bother them.:)

[Kerosene Kraut]

Imagine some Lufthansa flight enroute from Frankfurt to the US with a medical emergency onboard spraying fuel over London, no vectors, and insisting to go right into LHR.

[flugholm]

>The Berliners smoke like chimneys, drink like fish and eat high cholesterol meals. I don't think a little jet fuel will bother them.

This (non-smoking) Berliner agrees. :}:}:}

And...
Luckily I wasn't having a barbeque yesterday, or else we aaaalll could have diiiiieeeed!

[Double Zero]

So to avoid getting Sam'd, or even shot by a Tornado if one didn't see it off with an airliner, I hope there's a system in place - I am NOT asking what - whereby a genuine emergency can be descriminated from naughty people with evil intentions - or do we just blow away anything a bit dodgy ?! A good job the Berlin ATC didn't...

In the strange few days after 9/11, I knew of a particularly tired & overweight Cessna 172 which was vectored to check out some lost soul near Windsor !

They could only give a rough ident' as the PA-28 with retracts pulled away rapidly - my suggestion of applying an ' Interceptor' zap didn't catch on.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Imagine some Lufthansa flight enroute from Frankfurt to the US with a medical emergency onboard spraying fuel over London, no vectors, and insisting to go right into LHR>>

What are e supposed to imagine? I'm an ex Heathrow controller who has seen something similar on several occasions, albeit not Lufthansa. Medical emergencies are treated very seriously by ATC.

[point8six]

Boeing has approved overweight landings (B744) for some time now, especially in cases such as medical emergencies. Of course, airline SOP's may state differently and would override the manufacturers' recommendations.If the landing is not 'firm', then a quick inspection is required, before release to service. However, if the landing is 'firm' then a more extensive check is required.Reducing weight to conform with the placarded max. ldg. wt. should not be restricted to "dire emergency only".

[A330driver]

HD,

A few years back as we were climbing out of London towards STU we heard a BA PAN call - returning to LHR due medical emergency. As we climbed to FL 220 we saw an opposite direction coming towards us, just 1000ft above us, apparntly contrailling. I asked if the the returning a/c was dumping fuel, and Nigel duly replied that he was - news to both ATC and ourselves. We were immediately vectored to the SW to avoid flying into one large kerosene cloud. Dumping fuel should only be done with ATC approval as there are other factors involved other than those on board.

[Notso Fantastic]

I seem to recall Tegel is not that long. Presumably he dumped because an overweight 747 and a short runway.......?

[GotTheTshirt]

All this rhetoric about fuel dumping and overweight landing is truly facinating.
Now !
What about the many aircraft that do not have fuel dump ( And they are legion!)

At least it removes all this decision making !

[Notso Fantastic]

Look, this is mainly a 'Professional Pilots' Network. Operational matters count quite a lot here. As for the non-dumping planes, it's obviously a question of checking Landing Distance required v Landing Distance available. Does that answer your query?

[Interflug]

I seem to recall Tegel is not that long. Presumably he dumped because an overweight 747 and a short runway.......?EDDT RWY 08L/26R 9920 ft/3023 m for landing.

Required RWY length at MLW for 747-400/ RWY dry/ ALT ~100ft
flaps 30: 6900 ft/2100 m
flaps 25: 7500 ft/2300 m

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7474sec3.pdf

[Notso Fantastic]

I thought it was shorter. Other reasons that would affect the decision:
work in progress?
weather
aircraft weight
serviceability of the aircraft
experience on the aircraft
The pilots would have had a good reason to decide to jettison. Nobody wants to throw a vast amount of fuel away for no good reason.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Just remember that Berliners get their drinking water filtered from below the banks of the river havel. Draining anyplace versus medical emergency is some interesting question to debate about. Prost.

[angels]

Out of interest, how long would it take a virtually fully fuelled up 744 (which I presume it was) to dump enough fuel for a 'non-hard' landing?

[Interflug]

Just remember that Berliners get their drinking water filtered from below the banks of the river havel. Draining anyplace versus medical emergency is some interesting question to debate about. Prost.How much fuel was dumped at which altitude exactly where? Today the tab water tastes as bad/good as any time. When you throw a match into it, it would not ignite so I guess everything is fine. After all it was French fuel, so it should taste quite good :-)

[keskildi]

if I get it right AF184 is operated with 772 equipment and not 744


AF184 13:35
Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) - France
07:15
+1 Jour
Hong Kong (HKG) - Hong Kong
11h40mn Sans escale
777200 Tempo
K

[Taildragger67]

Kerosene Kraut,

Here (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/N481EV%201-06.pdf) is the report about an Evergreen 747F diverting into EGLL due IFSD. Flew right over crowded bits of London more than once, despite being edgy about the likelihood of the remaining three donks staying lit.

Whilst the crew had charts for EGSS, they elected to go for EGLL as that was the one they had already seen and could keep track of in CAVOK conditions. They wanted to get down PDQ as the thought they were losing the lot.

They asked for vectors to EGLL and that's what they got:

the stated requirement of the aircraft commander to land at London Heathrow was facilitated.

So if a commander asked for vectors to EGLL due medical emergency, one suspects they'd be given just that. And it would not, I suspect, matter whether the operator was LH, AF, BA, SQ, EV or anyone else.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Tailee,
the vectors thing was about ATC suggesting vectors to some designated fuel jettison area while the skipper wanted to bring his medical pax to the ground asap instead, dropping fuel wherever the skipper wanted on his way to Tegel.

[EFIScomp]

I don't know why I even bother with this site if all you get when you try and answer a question is somebody just patronising you. On the 767 we do have an issue with the brakes and therefore when we brief the departure we would only make an immediate landing for an uncontrolable fire. For pretty much everything else we would dump fuel. If enroute, you can have the centre tanks empty in less than 20 minutes for most of our routes, so in most cases there would be very little advantage in not dumping fuel.
In the case of some aircraft not being able to dump fuel, these generally don't have an issue with stopping distances and don't have a major difference between max. take off mass and max. landing mass, ie. the 757 only has a 20 tonne difference where as the 767 has a 40 tonne difference, hence why some aircraft need to dump and some don't.

[411A]

A few years back as we were climbing out of London towards STU we heard a BA PAN call - returning to LHR due medical emergency. As we climbed to FL 220 we saw an opposite direction coming towards us, just 1000ft above us, apparntly contrailling. I asked if the the returning a/c was dumping fuel, and Nigel duly replied that he was - news to both ATC and ourselves.

Well now, doesn't this just take the prize for irresponsible operation.
Better to work with ATC for the benefit of all, I would think.

[Enos]

Shoot me if im wrong

With Boeing twins they are designed to land at max take off weight, but this increases the amont of fatigue on the airframe so Boeing worked out a landing weight that average pilots can drive the aircraft into the ground on a regular basis.

As posted if you do land over weight its no big thing but the aircraft must have an over weight landing check carried out before the next flight, hard at away airport with engineers that are not interested in you.

Its a good idea to work out the distance required to stop as there may not be enough to stop on when you are heavy and if they engines on fire land asap ive also been told if you're down to one engine land over weight as well, the other one might stop turning.

I do know of somebody thats landed overweight for a medical emergency, every situation is different....thats why they pay us the big bucks.

Cheers Enos

[Five Green]

In a classic ( if that is what the a/c in question was) you have a real chance of heating up the brakes enough to blow the tires and cause brake fires when you land overweight. The higher you are over MLW the more likely you will loose the fuse plugs and have a brake fire or two.

Landing overweight is a serious event, not to be taken lightly. Yes the a/c (at least the Boeing) only needs an inspection if nothing catches fire but if the tires go it is a big problem.

Our co. had a 400 land overweight not too long ago and some plugs let go and there were a couple of brake fires.

All of which as described above would make de-planing a medical emergency very problematic.

Sounds like the crew did the best they could. Juggling a human life, the possible outcomes of overweight landing, the ATC dumping procedures and expectations was most likely a very stressful flight. Well done to the crew, hope the pax is alright.

FG

[modelcuirstudios]

I'm Just wandering About LDA....Surely if you just took off from a RWY of the same length...Then you can land the plane with enough RWY because pilots calculate the Rejected Takeoff speed...so if they can reject a takeoff then maybe they could land the plane :)

[Five Green]

It is not so much about the distance it takes to stop, although obviously important. Just as a guess to land at MTOW for example and not heat up the brakes you would need ohh........15 000 ft ( as a guess). On anything less the amount of heat energy to stop a 747 at MTOW is mind numbing, and as such it heats the brakes and tires to the melting point.

Guess that is why we used to get the biggish bucks.....

FG

[F4F]

All aircraft can be landed overweight. Get'em down with a ROD <600ft/mn and maintenance don't even bother with an overweight landing check :ok:
So, the only thing to watch out is, is the runway you're gonna grease it on long enough?

live 2 fly 2 live

[Comanche]

Thanks to all who contributed. Not sure if I am anything wiser. In a similar situation, my instinct says that I would still think twice about dumping fuel overhead Berlin. Some of the aromatic hydrocarbons found in fuel have such strong bonds (such as benzene) that they are indistructable and will end up landing somewhere. The term 'vaporizing' is a little misleading, because it seems to suggest that the fuel will be broken down and simply dissapppear.

Tough decision, altogether.

[Notso Fantastic]

So you don't like the idea, you're not sure why, you've asked people who do know, and you think better not, but maybe 'green' issues should come into it? I see.

Do you think alleged pollution from a few tonnes will make bugger all difference? Don't you think the big producers burn off a thousand times that every day? What about all the cars pumping out hydrocarbons? Given that nobody in Berlin would have suffered in any way from dumping above 6000' or even said 'was ist das funny gasolino smell?', absolutely no hydrocarbons would have reached the ground there, it was necessary to carry out an emergency landing.......what is there not to like?

[moggiee]

Out of interest, how long would it take a virtually fully fuelled up 744 (which I presume it was) to dump enough fuel for a 'non-hard' landing?
Max Take-Off Weight down to Max Landing Weight ....... maybe 30 minutes?