Knowing what you know now about this game, wud you have done it all in the 1st plce?

[Treeshaver]

In 2005 an optimistic and naieve 25 year old embarked on getting his FATPL from scratch, with the dream of becoming an airline pilot.

Three years later, after having had my money sucked out of me by everyone from the CAA to Bristol Question Bank, Transair to Pooleys;
having put 100% into all my training;
having tenaciously followed every sniff of a job;
having invested 15,000 pounds in what is now a useless type rating on the hollow promise of a job from a two bit airline;

I sit here, can of super tennants in hand, a broken man.

My question: knowing what you know now about this dirty game, would you have done it all in the first place? yes or no?

My answer, a resounding NO!

Moderators, any chance of making this into a poll?

(ps, forgive me for the poor grammar in the title of this thread, but I had to write it like that to make it fit in to the allowed amount of characters.)

[EpsilonVaz]

I have done it and would do it all over again.

With everything in life it comes down to the decisions you make. I have to question your reasoning on purchasing a TR without a job on the end.

I am searching for a job, have been for a few months, if something doesn't come up by the time limit I have set myself, I will go get an instructor rating and start instructing to build some experience.

[stardustcologne]

Hi Treeshaver,

sorry to hear such bad news. Keep on trying.
As soon as you get into this business its worth it. I know, it is hard from your point of view right now, but don't give up. Things can change from one day to another.

I was looking for a cockpitjob for nearly three years (with a type rating, just as you probably) - and then one afternoon there was this phonecall from abroad: "We are looking for an F/O, do you want to give it a try? When are you able to join a simulator screening? Tomorrow? Very good, see you tomorrow..." And this was my step into "this game". I couldn't believe it and I thought it's a bad joke. But in meantime I am long haul F/O and I really enjoy this job.

Until now I have spent nice and ugly times in this job and not everything is easy - but in a whole I would do it again. So don't give up!

[Treeshaver]

Epsilon Vaz, read my post again.

"Chin up" optimism aside I really fell that I have reached the end of my patience with this whole escapade. If id put the last three years of my life into something realistically achievable, who knows where id be.

[corsair]

Three years? My friend that is nothing, merely your first attempt. It took me a lot longer to achieve anything Even now, it hardly pays the bills. I know it feels bad but it's merely a setback. If I listed my setbacks, you would rip open that can and slit your wrists. You would need a really big violin to accompany my tale of woe! If my life was a movie it would be a disaster movie.

Have I ever given up? Well yes actually, several times but I kept being drawn back. Now I fly for a living (almost) and am enjoying it. The future looks optimistic buy my experience tells me there are no certainties. Even now I look to a future without flying.

Would I do it again? The answer is a definite maybe. Right now, ironically I would walk away if the right ground job opened up and I would simply instruct on my days off. I would miss flying but everything comes to an end. Age knocks the edge off enthusiasm.

No 'chin up' optimism from me. The only reason to give up is if you don't enjoy flying anymore. If you do, just pick yourself up and try again. Persistence eventually pays off.

Oh and by the way, don't drink that Tennents, it's Pee.

[Treeshaver]

Its pee, but its strong!

Sorry for the negative vibes people, just feeling a bit down about it all at present. Recent events have conspired very much against me. Ill soldier on, nothing else to do!

Why does flying have to be the be all and end all?
Its like fancying a girl who always turns you down. Your brain keeps telling you u'd be better off just cutting ur losses, but somehow you just keep coming back for more punishment.

Oh yeh, and just to confirm, I did purchase my tr with the definite promise of a job attached to it. A promise which turned out to be hot air.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Treeshaver - thanks for sharing this with is. Unfortunately there is a positive bias on PPRuNe due to human nature. The bias is that when people do well, get a job, achieve the dream (or know someone who just has) they post on here for all to see and revel in.

Posts such as yours are very rare despite your situation being very common.


It might indeed be the best option to cut your losses. Particularly as we enter the recessionary phase of the economic cycle.


WWW

ps You have your poll, its the least I could.

[African Drunk]

Which TR and which Company? Might be worth warning people.

WWW apparently my wife was at pony club with yours.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Oh yeh, and just to confirm, I did purchase my tr with the definite promise of a job attached to it. A promise which turned out to be hot air.

If 99.9% of the supposed jobs that I have been offered turned out to actually exist then I would probably be a test pilot for Boeing, Airbus or NASA by now.

:ouch:

[careerpilotman]

fingers crossed for the rest of us in the training process

[Kanu]

Try instructing mate - Its always sniffed at on this forum but its fun, it keeps you current, generally improves your flying and when you hit the magic 1000 hrs figure, employers start returning your calls and even calling you out of the blue.

So its generally a crappy wage, you're the same age as me, stick with it for a year to 18 months and something will come up. It has for every instructor I know.

[Treeshaver]

Kanu, what you say is true, I love flying but have identified a different career which I think am now going to pursue. Im not in a bad position, I have a decent degree and I'm going to venture into the world of graduate recruitment, something which I was desperate to avoid three years ago!
I hate to eat humble pie but I can't put my life on hold for ever. Otherwise I'll be a penniless old man, still drinking super tennants on a monday night waiting for the phone to ring / email to be sent. Lets face it, we're on the verge of a recession and low hours pilots will be the first to be hit.

Ill get an FI rating and instruct at weekends, send a couple of CVs out a week perhaps but I aint gonna let it eat out my soul anymore. Hell, maybe I'll be able to look at a plane again without my stomach turning!

Looking forward to being a normal person again,

Treeshaver.

ps, when looking at the results of this poll, just remember that those who have walked away from aviation will generally not be here to vote.

[G SXTY]

I don't think there is a positive bias on Pprune, certainly not on this forum. If it's biased at all, it leans toward the negative. Why? Because the vast majority of ex-wannabes who now fly airliners don't touch this forum with a bargepole. They used it for advice and support when they were training and job hunting, now they have jobs, they've moved on. To put it bluntly, they're not wannabes anymore and they have no interest in posting here. Ergo, you'll find relatively few people saying; "come on in, the waters lovely." By contrast, you'll find lots who dream of being a pilot and have yet to start, others in the various stages of training, and of course those who have qualified but have yet to find a job.

Yes, when I got a job I posted about it on here - but no-one else on my type rating course did. So that's 12 other success stories you won't hear about.

Treeshaver, I feel for you mate. In terms of finding a job, I'm at the other end of the lucky scale - I finished my IR, sent off less than 10 applications, had interviews with 2 airlines and got the job I dreamed of. All in the space of 3 months - I know I've been very fortunate.

On the other hand, it took 7 years of my life to get from trial lesson to the IR. It cost me £45k. I left my job to train full time, my marriage broke up - partly because of the stresses and strains imposed by commercial flying training. Out of money, I was forced to go back cap in hand to my old company, and spent another 2 years in a job and a lifestyle I hated, cursing the fact I wasn't flying. It was the worst two years of my life, and I was stressed to the point that my health was starting to suffer.

Then last year, with less than 12 months to run on my ATPL credits, it was 'now or never'. I bit the bullet, jacked in my job - again - and threw myself into commercial training. It worked out, and I got a job very quickly. The point I'm making is that I had to go through a world of grief to get to this stage. It's been a very costly journey, financially and emotionally. I know others who've had it much worse.

This aint an easy game. We know the risks when we start off, there are no guarantees at the end of it. Some people fall on their feet and get lucky, inevitably some people are unlucky and/or struggle. But if there's one thing I've learned in the time I've been flying, it's that the truly determined ones always get there in the end. I could have walked away from this on several occasions (and I very nearly did). It was only a stubborn pig-headed refusal to give up that got me through.

So to answer your question, yes - I'd do it again in a heartbeat - in fact I wish I'd done it 10 years ago. But by God it's been tough.

[preduk]

This happens in every industry...

Go to your local McDonald's and see how many of them are graduates! (or call centres) all awaiting that dream job to appear.

Things at the moment are tough, but those who stick in there and keep themselves motivated will succeed. Quitting is the easy part.

[Luke SkyToddler]

I wouldn't do it all again - not because I didn't succeed in getting where I wanted to be (I'm now flying longhaul jets in the arab gulf), but because I got here and found that it wasn't worth tuppence of all the years of hard work it took.

The joy that used to be found in the actual craft of flying the plane, pretty much all wears off after the first decade. These days, mostly it feels more like being a sales rep driving his 20th trip of the month down the M6 in the mondeo. I admit I still do enjoy going on a few of the "destination" trips and getting out and about, but I find myself becoming increasingly despondent at missing out on so many precious moments of my kids' childhood, and the fact that on the whole it's just as much of a rat race, as it is working for any other big horrible soulless mega-corporation run by accountants and computers. And once you've got your head around it, flying these big modern jets is about as intellectually challenging as scanning groceries at Tesco. Sad but true, the 21st century airline pilot has more in common with David Brent than Chuck Yeager or Antoine de St-Exupery.

Basically at the sad old age of 35 I'm now seriously trying to save enough money to have a mid-life career change and get OFF the jets and into a more interesting and less stressful occupation. At the moment my plans are alternating between a diving instructor in fiji, or a trance music DJ in Goa :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

African Drunk - I think my wife was in pony club with half the damed county, I'll drop you a PM.

This is turning into an intersting thread. You see people who've not made, who have but it cost them dearly in time or money or health or reltionships. Then you see people who've made it but are then unsure whether its really worth it.

Personally I love the job and had a comparatively painless journey to destination. Even so I'm looking to go part time and develop other interests both business and domestic. At the end of the day you work for your kids and the most valuable thing you can give them is your time. Not money.

Once this is understood and part of your life then the attractions of job that can see you away from home for long periods, and an income that hangs off the thread of your next medical/economic cycle/simcheck, suddenly seems less attractive than it did when you were somewhat younger and more thrusting.

There's an old old anecdote that doubtless many of you will have read before but I'll repeat anyway. It goes something like this.

[portsharbourflyer]

My only comment to this is the original poster is complaining he can't find a job when it is apparent he hasn't been doing any flying since qualifying (I assume this as reference to doing an instructor rating has been made).

If he had been a full time instructor for the last two or three years then I would feel sympathy. But if you sit around with a 250 hour CPL/IR making no effort to further your flying then you cannot expect to get employed.

I will add is I do still keep close contacts with colleagues from my previous industry, incase I do change my mind one day. But if ever I do get fed up of flying, I will always think if I wasn't doing this I would be stuck back in the design office. If ever do go back to the old career in the event that I no longer want to/can't fly at least I will be satisfied that flying wasn't for me.

Better to have tried then to be forever thinking what if?

Remember no one asked you to become a pilot it is voluntary. Also if you hadn't have done your training you can bet you would be on this forum in ten years time asking am I too old to train?

[usedtofly]

Treeshaver.....

I agree with GSXTY on this, most people who have managed to get a good flying job don't spend much time on PPRUNE. As a consequence these forums can indeed look gloomy, filled with negative/depressing/desperate stories that can easily grind you down.

I really do sympathise with you................If I had my time again I would NOT do it!

However......................I am now captain on a small turbo prop and it just has to be the best job in the world! I get paid to do something I would pay to do!

I felt like chucking it all in on a few occasions (did actually for 2 years) but in the end I had to give it 'one last go'. Fortunately it worked.

My advice would be to put a time limit on it, say perhaps another 2 years. If no success by then.......cut yer losses and quit, at least you tried.

Are you able to start the new career but keep the flying on the back burner?

What ever you do I wish you well.

Cheers

UTF

[no sponsor]

I most certainly wouldn't do it again. The sentiments of Luke are shared by myself. I'm considering going back to my old career.

This is a career for the young single person, with money to blow and little ties to a family.

Your life is owned by crewing and rostering, and I find myself wishing I had more time with my young family, and certainly wish I had more money. I spend an abnormal amount of time worrying about the cost of living, and I don't have any debts to pay off.

The industry has been ruined by a variety of factors, bean-counters, but also through the willingness of those to work for free, pay for a TR and line training. The likes of CTC have alot to answer for.

As a result, and as an F/O, you are treated as a mere commodity. I can only see conditions deteriorating to such an appalling level that no sensible person would consider it. The time will come when captains are not in short supply too, and the same will apply to them. I flew with a captain the other day, 17 years as a skipper on jets and 15K+ hrs who was considering paying for a 777 rating so he could go long haul and have a 'better' quality of life. I think it's a mad state of affairs. Does experience count for nothing anymore?

You don't want to be asking yourself 'what-if?' but you also need to avoid the 'what was I thinking?'

[corsair]

spent another 2 years in a job and a lifestyle I hated, cursing the fact I wasn't flying.

Did that myself.

The point I'm making is that I had to go through a world of grief to get to this stage. It's been a very costly journey, financially and emotionally. I know others who've had it much worse.


Ditto

Sad but true, the 21st century airline pilot has more in common with David Brent than Chuck Yeager or Antoine de St-Exupery.


Absolutely.

At the end of the day you work for your kids and the most valuable thing you can give them is your time. Not money.

With one little sprog already here and another on the way. I regret all time away from him. On top of that, the type of flying I do is that much more risky than you being an 'Bus driver over the Atlantic. I have had pause for thought, wondering if the risk is worth the reward now that I have responsibilities. Even now I am tailoring my career expectations and would hope to avoid a flying job that takes me away a lot. Suddenly Ryanair looks attractive (gulp!)

So there is a common experience here in this thread among people who do fly for a living. It not easy and many fall by the wayside. But if you really want it you will get there eventually.

Remember at the end of the day, It's just a bloody job. I always say that for all the trials and tribulations of becoming a pilot. It's not a sad story. I enjoyed every minute of it, bar a flight test or two. Nobody should have any sympathy for sad pilots. We are all volunteers.

Now I have to go, I have an aeroplane to ferry for maintenance. But, you know, I'd rather stay in bed.:sad: Having said that I will enjoy the trip once I get going.:ok:

[belongins]

Woooowahhh people
Sitrep
34yrs old, wife, no house, no kids, 32k pa scientist global defence company, about to apply for redundancy
Just about (fingers crossed) to pass the last stage of CTC Cadets selection and head off to NZ for training leaving the wife behind for 17weeks:eek:

Reading this makes me tres worried.
Are these storied NOT related to the cadet type routes which if i am not mistaken includes TR and a 'better' prospect of a job at the end (no guarantee of course!)

Are the horror storied in this thread from people who have NOT done a cadet scheme and maybe done self funded modular etc...

Sorry but i am trying to establish myself on the stark contrast GS between the cadets 'sales pitch' and reality whilst looking through the fog that is the difference between the various routes to becoming an airline pilot.
Barry

[JB007]

There are some awesome and very witty quotes on here...keep 'em coming folks...

[Superpilot]

no sponsor,

I can envisage everything you're experiencing. And as a wannabe shortly due to complete prof training (PPL for 8 years) I am now at a point where I do not consider an airline career to be healthy (for my family situation) unless it's with FR or EZ. Granted, the LCC sector comes with it's own health warnings.

I have plenty of experience in another career and cannot see myself do that for life too. Every one I meet says that. It's a fact of life we'll get bored with anything we do for too long. If you could find an airline with the right lifestyle for you wouldn't you stay?

It's very important to achieve happiness with repetition. It's not repetition, it's just life.

[MartinCh]

belongins
Well, I'm just a passing reader on this thread, but from what I've read on multitude of threads, those 'can of beer and sad look' are more likely the integrated guys, whether they 'nailed it' with SSTR or not.

Those who actually can't afford to gamble, ie being loaded and integrated or just simply modular route folks, flying when they can/got dosh in their free time, in full time job, they don't have reason to be too wrecked...

Luke SkyToddler,
That's the only thing I'm scared of. Not the hardships of 'getting there', not the job uncertainties, medical (OK, this one a bit) in future, but flying becoming such routine that other career would be better..
All the while when I can't imagine any job outside aviation as a career.

That's one of few reasons I'm going rotary. And going rotary and the time and cost partly puts me off. I'll be wiser in September :-D But I love flying in general. I consider getting airline job way down the 'training decade' starting next month, but it's not my priority. Yeah, money good. Not much 'real' flying with all the prescribed things, procedures, pressure etc.
I'm already planning my airplane and glider private next year.

I'm going my 'tailored modular' way. Although one guy suggested trying to get onto OAT or CTC thing, I wrote him - 'no thanks', know about it, but it's not an option.

[G SXTY]

Belongins - I don't think mine is a horror story, I just wanted to make the point that it's dammed hard work to get to the RHS and is often a very costly experience. Has it been worth it? For me, today, absolutely. However, I'm only a couple of months into my first commercial job - ask me again in 10 years time and you might get a different answer. Who knows - for the moment I'm just enjoying being paid to do what I love doing.

I'd suggest there is another, broader, point here. Modern life is itself very stressful, it's not just restricted to aviation. We all have a tendency to see greener grass somewhere else, and without wishing any disrespect to those who have spent their entire working lives in this industry, the ideal of a nice stable 9-5 job can be just as false as the 'glamorous' image of an airline pilot. Having worked nearly 15 years in 'normal' jobs, and 10 of those commuting to London, I don't think it's any less stressful than flying - it's just a different kind of stress. I'm the most laid back bloke in the world, but I've come very close to hitting other commuters on the train - because everyone's tired, everyone is stressed, everyone is wound up. I've seen a pair of commuters (two women in fact) have a Mexican standoff on a narrow pavement because neither would move over for the other. I've got halfway home from the station before realising that my fists were still clenched . . .

So you'd get to see your kids every night, but if you're leaving the house at 7am and aren't back until 7.30 - 8pm (and knackered with it) then how much quality time are you actually getting with them? Maybe I'm lucky with my airline, but I actually get more quality time off now than I did in my previous career.

I certainly wouldn't try and put anyone off a flying career, I think it's the best job in the world - for me. It won't be for everyone, and all you can do is gather as much information as possible before you commit, so as to make an informed decision.

This thread is a very good start.

[redsnail]

My opinion on all of this.

Don't go straight to an jet airline. Sure the money's better and you'll probably need it to service the debt the flying school's convinced you to take on but you'll be bored within 5 years.

Take your time with learning to fly and don't amass a huge debt that you'll be a slave to. Get some piston flying in if you can. Then jump to a turboprop and do a variety of flying on that. Have some fun and be brave enough to shift locations. Go to Scotland. Go to Africa. Where ever. Get some real flying in and have an adventure.

By then you'll be seasoned enough to know what flying a jet's all about from A to B. You won't be frustrated as such because you'll know what the other flying's like. Good and bad.

Find a job that challenges you every day and has a good range of short, medium and long haul options. Find a new aircraft to fly every 5 or so years. That'll keep the boredom away. Also I get plenty of time at home and the money's pretty good.

So, for all the reasons above, I love my job. (Even though I am on standby in Luton) :ok:

Unfortunately, the above career path isn't sold by the FTOs in Europe. Nor do many recruiters understand the "piston/turboprop thing" and think you're inferior because you're not in a jet....

[G SXTY]

Top advice Reddo.

I've got a good friend at BA who is well paid, quite a long way up the seniority ladder and flies an electric Wonderbus. He doesn't trim it, he doesn't get to use manual thrust, for him an NDB approach is an event. He went straight on to jets and regrets having missed out on the turboprop experience. 'Boring' is maybe putting it a bit strongly, but you get my drift.

Happily, 'boring' is not a word I'd use to describe my current type. :ok:

[belongins]

@MartinCH
FWIW and from what i have read its the modular and self sponsored guys and gals that seem to struggle - In that case why not CTC?

@Chelsce
LLC is - Low Cost Carrier (FR/EZ etc)

[Treeshaver]

People have said to me on here, why did'nt I get an instructors rating instead, as it would have been a better long term move.

Well I was actually just about to sign up for an FI course when "Air Piss Takers" offered me a job. Spend 15k on a tr and we'll give you a job afterwards they said. So the money I had to pay for an FI rating went on that instead. Looks like with hindsight buying the FI rating would have been a better idea, but now I have no cash, and even if I did I would be inclined to "stop throwing good money after bad."

It isn't just the battle to get a job which has disheartened me so much, but the appaulingly bad, sometimes absurd management I have come across within the industry. I have had some rediculous offers:- "come and work for us for free", "pay us 5000 euro and we'll give you a job", turned up for one "flying job" and spent the day washing planes! :ugh:
With respect to the particular airline that has let me down so badly over my "job", quite franky a bunch of monkeys could run things better.
Why can't these people simply conduct their business in an appropriate and sensible manner?

Here's a revolutionary idea for all those airlines / flying companies out there: "how about I come and work hard for you and fly your planes, you pay me a regular wage and give me a small element of job security?"
Seems to work in any other profession, even the kids down my local Macdonalds are at least working for a professionally run management system, even if the job is crap!

[belongins]

G SXTY
Did you do a cadet sponsored route or modular/self funded etc

redsnail
While this sounds all well and good i cant help thinking that the approach you are championing is NOT really suiable for a sponsored cadet route and is more suited to self funded / modular route. In which case your suggestion is probably is a good idea as airlines are not likely to be that intersted in a low hr non TR recently qualified fATPL such as those produced by the self funded/modular routes?

These are all retorical questions you understand - i am merely trying to find out as much as i can before i jump ship - so to speak.
B

[G SXTY]

Modular, self-funded.

And my airline couldn't care less whether I was integrated or modular. :ok:

[belongins]

G SXTY
Indeed i guess the real question is sefl funded/sponsored?

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Took me several years to get the job. It's alright and I'm happy enough, but I expected to feel a great sense of relief and to feel that I'd "made it", which I don't. Money is still very tight, the roster changes every five minutes so planning a life is difficult (I agree with whoever said we're just a commodity) and as a new FO, it feels a bit like being back at school. I already feel resentful over the way we're treated.

I'm not sure that the hardship is worth the reward. I can envisage looking for a non-flying job in a few years, with a bit of weekend instructing to satisfy the pilot in me.

[belongins]

Mr A F Sake (I like that heheh:))
Please can you augment your post with a little background regarding the route you took.
Cheers B

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Previous office-based career, not related to aviation
Self-funded modular with gaps of a few months between each module.
400 hours TT on completion of training
Instructed for 2/3 years
First interview at around 700 hours but failed the sim check
Now flying turboprop, didn't pay for type rating but bonded.

The flying is the bit I enjoy - no complaints about the aircraft, routes, variety, level of interest/challenge, etc. - it's all the other elements of being employed by an airline that ruin it.

[belongins]

Interesting
In the context of not knowing anything i would ahve thought regional turboprop flying would allow for quite a stable well planned private life - oh well as said i knowa nothing:)

How long are you bonded for. I know its circa 18k for TR so i guess its of the order of 3 years perhaps?

B

[Treeshaver]

Belongins, if you're trying to reach some conclusion that its only the self sponsored modular guys who have ended up in the soup then you are barking up the wrong tree.
I know a lot of pilots, integrated and modular who have been looking for jobs for years. Almost every instructor I had was from either FTE or Oxford.

If a pilot were sponsored by an airline, then it would be unlikely that they would be without a job after 3 years, but there are however hardly any sponsorship schemes around.
All wannabe pilots are self-sponsored, save for a very small minority.

[belongins]

The reson for all the questioning is to quantify how much in the soup the CTC Wings cadet scheme could be. This is a sponsored scheme so i am guessing - not really in the soup?

B

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The CTC cadetship scheme is gushing pilots out of its training output pipe. Trouble is the airlines are stopping recruiting and there is a pool building up.

Will there still be enough takers come the winter to start draining the pool?

Will CTC be able to farm out pool swimmers to the four corners of the earth?

Will the wages be enough to allow for loan repayments and living costs?

Will the banks stop issues the training loans if they see cadets not finding lucrative enough work?


Interesting times ahead.

WWW

[belongins]

Exactly my worries WWW:)

[James_H1982]

This is a sponsored scheme so i am guessing - not really in the soup?

B

belongins,

I certainly wouldn't call CTC wings a sponsored scheme. You still pay for your own training, you still take out the huge loan which you are liable for repaying once you finish.
Yes the chances of getting a job are greater than with OAA/FTE but if the partner airlines are not hiring at the time you finish you'll be in a hold pool indefinitely with your loan accruing interest and your currency running out.

I was recently accepted and I am currently thinking long and hard about accepting in the current climate.

[belongins]

James
I was under the impression that the airline repays the loan with you being bonded to them for the duration of the payments but that you take ownership and hence the fianancial risk for the 2 years during your training.
The current climate defo makes you think twice!

It would be really nice to speak to some CTC cadet grads past and present to find out more I guess.

B

[no sponsor]

The CTC scheme ain't sponsored. A sponsored scheme means someone else pays for your training, but CTC want 60,000 pounds from you (or your bank) to teach you to fly. BA used to be the only sponsored scheme around where you payed nothing. That's no more. Apart from SIA, Cathay and Emirates, I don't think any remain.

CTC could be in a very difficult position this time next year - with 150 cadets per year, I think there are troubled times ahead. EZY are about to stop their recruitment, so the single most lucrative taker of CTC cadets will close their door. TCX will take a few for the summer, Ryanair may take more, but you'll be without a job after the summer with TCX, or have to pay Ryanair a bunch of cash, or even, be out of work for the winter when they park a sizable chunk of their fleet. Some Vietnam operator will take some more too, but nothing to replace the sort of numbers which went to EZY.

CTC's business model is based on rapidly growing fleets of it's partner airlines, and the turnover of pilots in others. When fleet expansion stops, it will necessarily affect how many of CTC's cadets get taken on. With EZY reducing their fleet size (I heard it was 5-7 aircraft, but I'm sure WWW will confirm) then the numbers required will reduce. If BA put a recruitment freeze on due to parking aircraft during the winter, then this will stop the turnover of pilots out of EZY and other partner airlines. This will again stop the flow of CTC cadets through the 'replace turnover of pilots' route.

With such a long lead time from start to finishing training, then potentially there are a large number of cadets who could be in a similar situation to the ATP cadets a year ago (some of which waited well over 12 months to go to a partner airline).

[belongins]

no sponsor (no cry)

From http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/cadets/index.asp

"What's more, this is an affordable, sponsored route into the airline industry. To ensure talented applicants aren't grounded by a lack of finance, the CTC Wings Cadet route operates an innovative financial solution to fund your training."

Also
From http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/cadets/finance.asp

"The CTC Wings cadet programme is a sponsored programme, which means you won't be paying for your training.'

B
Ps i am not looking for a forum spat I simply want to gather as much correct info as possible to aid me in making what is a very important descision for me

[Gav28]

Belongins,

The airline contributes a tax free amount each month to your loan repayment. At the end of the day, its your loan, no one elses. If you get laid off for any reason you repay it.

Cheers

[James_H1982]

belongins

As far as I'm aware the loan is always your risk, apart from in the initial phase of training where CTC will take some liability if you can't hack the course. Another thing to think about, with CTC shipping wings cadets off to the far sides of the world(Pacific airlines) and looking at other airlines to add as partners, there is a chance you may not be on quite the starting salary you would have got at EZY etc so those loan repayments could be leaving you with little disposable income to live.

Don't get me wrong think CTC wings is a good scheme but you need to consider all the options, and the ramifications of a debt that size.

Anyway this was turning into a good thread lets stop banging on about CTC now.

[belongins]

hahah roger understood
thanks all i enjoyed my stay :D

[Finals19]

Kanu said

Try instructing mate - Its always sniffed at on this forum but its fun, it keeps you current, generally improves your flying and when you hit the magic 1000 hrs figure, employers start returning your calls and even calling you out of the blue.

Errr...are you sure? I am in exactly that boat (or plane!) and its not happening for me right now..

I would say the requirements are increasing if anything - the heinous words that I read so often are "type rating or time on type required" Darn!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I note the CTC press release talking about the looming global shortage of pilots.

Try asking them exactly how many they currently have in their hold pool awaiting a course date with an airline.

Its still a good scheme and if you are thinking of spending that sort of cash on that sort of training I can think of no better way than to do it under CTC's wing. As their selection process is tough there is no harm whatsoever in applying.


WWW

[belongins]

Dubya Dubya dubya

I am hoping that IF they indeed have a hold pool and I think they probably do then its full of self sponsored integrated/modular or ATP guys and NO cadets..... of course I await to be corrected though.
B

Actually just found this

http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-267605.html

[Kanu]

Finals19,

Are you just unlucky? or are you setting your sights on a jet job and avoiding TP operators?

[preduk]

WWW,

You seem to be fairly experienced in the industry... My question is if you were starting off, and you could do any of the training routes.

Which one would you do??...

[BerksFlyer]

Basing this on WWW's previous posts, I think he would judge it on the current economic climate.

So for instance now, he entertains going modular and keeping debt and risk to the minimum, while keeping a job on the side.

In other times however (upturn), he says the merits of integrated courses really show, and it is a good route to go.

I realise I'm no substitue for WWW, but this is what I believe him to be saying based on various posts I've read.

I leave it to him to tell you himself...

[fade to grey]

Hmmm,
I find increasingly that many of my colleagues are echoing some of the feelings here.The problem is we all studied hard, paid alot to realise our 'dream'.

However the reality is -flying an airliner ain't that exciting.Its 90 % autopilot,90 % boredom to be honest.The progress page excites me most - especially when it gets down below 1000 miles to go.I expected more excitement.

The pay is OK but to be honest,for the responsibility involved I thought years ago that I would be paid mega bucks -not so.

Worst aspect is,of course,time away from the family especially with the kids at school. Try explaining to them why you will not be around for the next four weekends and will miss their ballet show etc etc. Feel like sh*t when one of them bursts into tears when you go away - to do what ?Drink with some 18year old girls you can't relate to in a grotty bar someplace far away.Feel like your eyeballs are about to bleed after a 13 hour shift.

Maybe I am painting a grim view but -this is the reality (at times)and it can be a harsh and lonely lifestyle.the view is nice though.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Berksflyer has me about right.

In the boom time an Integrated route can land you quickly in an airline job and is therefore worth it. It gets you into the industry quickly before the bust comes.

In the bust time a Modular route can keep you out of more debt and keep your income alive. It allows you to string out or pause your training allowing you to finish it just as the bust time ends.

In this business timing and luck are cruel cruel masters of your destiny.


WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Interesting to see 28% of people here are not overall positive on their decision to train for commercial flying.

Its quite a lot and a figure that I think feels about right to me.

WWW

[belongins]

I cant help but think that www's thoughts are solely based on non-sponsored entries be it mod or int.
IMHO this is not the question for me. I need to know / predict / have a gut feel for how the sponsored CTC wings cadet route will pan out for me.

This is the confusion mod/int and sponsored/self funded. Surely its the latter contrast (pair) that is dominant here (re: getting a job and how long etc etc) ??
please correct me if i am barking mad...confuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuused.com;)

[rons22]

I spent many £1000s of pounds on flight training and time on studying for ATPL exams. Then I came accross unpleasant CAA examiner in my IR and that made my aviation experience worse. I neglected friends, family etc. during my training and the only job offer I got was from Ryanair (pay-to-work scheme).
Re-focused my career now on engineering job (have BEng degree) what I origianlly trained for. Making more money than most of the captains, enjoying time with family and friends and dont miss aviation at all (purely because it is so so expensive).

Would I do it again?
Yes if I was a rich man with loads of money and could write off £100000. Otherwise, I would stay grounded and keep away from flight schools marketing campaigns and instead of spending all my money on aviation, i'd spend it on friends, family, girls, cars, motorbikes, boats and still manage to save some too.

[belongins]

I am coming out of 7 years of professional engineering in a very good company making just over 30kpa (not that its about the cash of course:))

"Making more money than most of the captains"

I have read some some scaaaary figures on PPRuNe regarding captains salaries circa 4-10k NET! pcm.
I dont know anyone near me save for an MD who earns that and that means being chained to a Blackberry 24/7 and never seeing the fam!

I guess we all think the grass is greener and one point or another
B

[belongins]

:ok:
its all about perception and i want my airline career to be just like that Cadburys ad.......BTW anyone know what that is all about:)

[preduk]

I do see what your saying WWW.

I personally think CTC is a great course. However, I have this gut feeling that my dream is to keep it all local. Join my local flying club; do my commercial training at a local flight school and get a job with a local airline flying around the Scottish islands and mainland. True flying.

I did think for awhile, why don't I just take my degree to the next level and become a lawyer, but the thought of sitting in that sort of environment for the rest of my life scares me. When I'm sitting at Prestwick and you see the brand new Easyjet aircraft with recently qualified crews doing their circuits, I just think I want a piece of that action.

[spotwind]

Ams.. love your post.



I Working > 9 hours (at leadt in Finance) =

yep same here, 12hrs, no breaks.

Minimal time for lunch... = lunch ? really ?

try food packed 7 hrs previous in sweaty plastic container, balanced on kneeboard in filthy flight deck, somewhere over franc, whilst trying to speak on radio.

Long dreaded journeys on the Tube.. =

commute, painful time wasting trip from car park to terminal, security, long walk to crew room.

Regular tube delays - 1 hour journey can become 3 hours =

Ok you got me here , never been 3 hours late, but sometime feels like it when you've taken your shoes, belt, jacket off for 13th time this week, emptied, your lunch box, your wallet, your bag, you pencil case onto the conveyor for all important security checks.

No overtime -most cases. =

Overtime, Never. Extension of duty, frequent esp in summer.

minimal wage increases =

likewise with caveat that saving fuel might just save your job!

Mostly no bonus, and if you do - expect 5 - 8% - unless you are in an Investment Bank =

[B]Bonuses for management only. We have profit share... but apparently never make a profit!

Take work home every other night =

work most nights. If not those couple of days off per week are for sim check preperation, command prep, aic's , studying, etc.

Stress about work on the weekends =

1 weekend off in 6.

Have a different Ops and crewing depts - called Senior Management
......shall I continue..

mmmmm yes please !


However, it does mean I could get paid more that a Captain, but what is the point if I cannot enjoy it.

I guess each role will have its pros and cons - but if you enjoy it then great - but if not then like me you are - off

Agreed, i like my job, There is simply too much of it. Its hard for me these days to recommend that someone spend a fortune on training for a job like this. i love flying, and it pays the bills, but when you do too much of it, it feels like any other job. Ask any junior doctor!

Live is for living eh ?

[agent.oen]

Where do you work in finance?? In my case it's as so:


work 8hrs a day; but some days you could have a bit more work but these are not frequent.
weekends - enjoy them. if you're ever called in for a saturday, you're paid overtime
overtime, as can be seen above, is paid - work on a public holiday and it's 350% (tax free)....
lunch - usually 1hr but it may end up being 1hr 15mins.
tube... i drive to work; 30mins on the highway. Since i get to work at 0930 that means no traffic on the highway... nice cruise in my cabrio =)
bonusses are there, but of course you'd have to work for them.
salary increases every year
get back home after work (not in the traffic as i get back after the rush hour) and enjoy the time playing on the PC, going to the gym, off for a quick sail/cycle/walk, cruise along the river with a honda cbr 600...
possibility to gain experience and hunt for better positions with better pay is a walk in the parkI cannot complain. But of course it's not my dream job.

AO

[G SXTY]

And that is why there is no right or wrong answer to the original question. Everyone is different, their attitudes, their aspirations, their circumstances.

In the words of the multitude in The Life of Brian - we've all got to work it out for ourselves.:ok:

[belongins]

Totally agree Dave
Currently spend most of my days trying to optimise my divisions resourcing or jsut sat playing on PPRUNE:)

Very very little physics or engineering going on here:(
B

G SXTY
I thought you were going to say 'Lifes a piece of...' :):)


Which of course it isnt if you are booked in for your phase 4 assessment with CTC and looking forward to a long a rewarding career in aviation....(They may be watching:))

[belongins]

DJ

Hahhahaha -same here its all finite element modelling stuff now.
I do EM and antenna modelling/design and all of Maxwells little horrors are done for you in the background. Still garbage in = garbage out so you are required to know what you are asking the CAD to do.....not that we are doing any tech stuff at the mo....and not that i care anymore:)


I have been doing Manc to Brizzol in a 737 and numerous laps of PLY in anything from a 172 to a BAe Hawk:)
Thing is with FSX as with any non-commercial simulators (I guess and hope) is that they seem to be much harder than the real thing / a commercial simulator.....anyone input on this last wildely sweeping statement.

Plus we are in danger of hijacking this thread too so maybe this should go elsewhere????
Barry

[agent.oen]

how long on average till you get to captain..? I know it's based on seniority, the airline and so on, but there should be an average number of years...

would be good to know to compare industries, salary levels and number of years needed in order to get to a particular salary level.

AO

[G SXTY]

If you're after lots of money, I'd recommend a career in finance or prostitution. Given the amount of money you'll spend just to qualify as a pilot, it will be a long time before you see any kind of profit.

Time to command varies enormously. At my airline (large regional carrier) there are genuine command prospects within 3 years. For legacy carriers with long histories and large pension schemes (such as British Airways) it could be more like 10 years.

[belongins]

Mmm prostitution now there's an idea :)

Global defence company senior scientist/engineer 7 years £31k pa part contributed pension (but thats dwindling by the month - age discriminatiion laws my butt:))

B

[heli_port]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Mmm prostitution now there's an idea :)


This is a very interesting thread and as a wannabe it's been an eye-opener.

Let’s not lower the tone by referring to the world’s oldest profession, however after the amount of money i am about to spend a bout as a pimp to pay of the loans might not be too bad :}

[dxbpilot]

Firstly I wish everyone the best of luck finding that first job. I have been rather lucky and landed my first airline job very soon after finishing training. I'm in my early 20's and although I had to dish out the money for a TR, I am getting paid a lot more than most of my friends do.

People are always comparing flying to becoming a Dr/Lawyer/engineer etc, but there is no way I would ever trade it for that, even if the money is better !

To put the training costs in perspective, a good friend of mine has just spent 50,000GBP for a masters degree.

Hang in there everyone, it can happen ! I've seen it.

Will I be happy in 15 years ? no idea !

[john.o.pilot]

even as a Capatin you'd still have to commute to airports all the time, work long hours and pass your medicals. that is ofcourse if you ever made it to Captaincy (much better chance than winning lottery for qualified pilots). :confused:

[redsnail]

That's the really depressing thing about flying turboprops. The pay. Every thing else is great. Many sectors, interesting approaches, bases usually small enough to know every one. Usually pretty social too. :ok: But, the pay sucks and when there's loans etc to pay off, it really sucks.

While today was an entertaining day, I am paid quite well :E for the amount of days I am expected to work per annum. :ok:

[allanon1980]

Great post lads. I've just gotten my PPL Heli and was intending on transferring to fixed wing and going the whole hog to ATPL(f) via the modular route. Now, that Ive actually gotten my PPL Im having second thoughts!!!! Is it just me or is there an awful lot of doom & gloom about, too many new pilots, not enough jobs etc etc

[preduk]

There is a lot of doom and gloom, but when people are happy with what they have achieved they have a habbit of keeping it to themselves.

The problems people are suffering are the same problems in many other industries, the main problem is that these people have spent their own money getting there so it's even more of a kick.

I would prefer to fly Helis for a living, but there aren't as many jobs available as airline flying the now.

[allanon1980]

I know, tell me about it. Originally I had hoped to go the heli route, but now feel that I need to be realistic and focus on the fixed wing if i want to get a job

[preduk]

allanon1980,

Could you not join the Irish Air Corps as a heli pilot? (I don't have any idea what they do etc all I know is they fly helis lol!)

[allanon1980]

Hi Preduk. Im 28 so a bit of a late starter, so the air corps is out unfortunately. And yes they have a couple of heli's, EC135's & AW139 if i remember correctly.

[agent.oen]

AMS, yeah many jobs going but I'm not in the UK! It isn't my dream job but it's a good one too. But with all this gloomy talk about flying it makes one think twice about going for it beyond the PPL level or not, which is a big pity =(

AO

[Canada Goose]

Well I've cast my vote now. Great thread BTW.

For me neither a good nor a bad choice, but if anything I'm happy with what I've done. It has certainly been very intersting to read threads from those people whose login names I recognise over the years and recall posts from their training or instructing days who now fly with airlines and feel that it hasn't really been worth it. They have confirmed for me what I have been thinking for a year or so now. I've come this far now, check all the boxes (perhaps apart from my age) and have getting on for 700 hours but really feel that working for an airline isn't for me anymore. To be honest, I just can't see it being worth it. I'm sure I'd enjoy the flying, certainly to begin with anyway, but it's all the bullsh*t that goes along with it, not least airlines that expect you to pay for TR's, uniforms, you name it ! I definitely feel it's a young mans game. I could go on and on but really many people have articulated their own experiences in this thread better than I can already. Just reading it all makes me confirm my decision not to continue 'begging' airlines to take me on ! None have invited me to interview yet so I take the hint and perhaps ironically it's all been for the best it's happened that way anyway ! Do I really want to work for an airline that expects you to be at their beck and call 24 hours, changes rosters at a whim, long hours, few weekends off etc, for what ? 18 -24k !! As another poster has already pointed out, everyone's situation is different and for me I earn good wad, more than many captains and I get more 'free' flying than I can cope with and in many ways I am therefore fortunate in that regard. I love flying and will so long as I have a medical fly, and it is for that reason I'm not bitter about getting the fATPL and thus for me neither a good nor a bad decision, if anything a good decision as I feel a much better pilot for it !!

If I can leave you with one thought ...........please don't pay for TR's. It is in my view the single most destructive reason that T&C's have deteriorated. I can understand why people are tempted and do it, but really .......just imagine for a moment, if every single person refused to pay for a TR, hell no, let's extend that further, all of a sudden nobody signed up to do commercial training. How long do you think airlines would begin to get twitchy and start offering to pay for TR's or sponsor cadets ?? We reap what we sow !!

Need a reminder of what I'm talking about, check out the link that is currently running. Remember this is for an air taxi operation for crying out loud and probably paying less per year net than they expect the guy to fork out for the TR !!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=327851

[Grass strip basher]

I've got halfway through my training all exams done and even paid for CPL... but have now binned it... why?? My old man did 35 years with BA and said he enjoyed the first 10-15 years and hated the last 10-15 years... he said he was bored sh8tless and he was on the old defined benefit mega bucks contracts (ex-hamble cadet).... I'll wait till I have 10-15 years left and aim for a regional turbo prop or the like.

For me it would involve chucking in a job where I can earn more in a month that most FO do in a year (yes in the city... although shortly to be the desert heat of the middle east... no tax... nice). My plan is do the day job till I'm mid-forties with a pension tucked away, have seen my kids get to a sensible age and mortgage paid off. Then with 25 years of GA flying under my belt at weekends (who knows I may even instruct in my spare time) I may have a bash at a regional turbo-prop job or biz jets... c10 years doing that before hanging up boots sounds like fun. That way I avoid money pressures, no debt, get to actually 'fly" aeroplanes for most of my life etc etc.

Oh and sat where I am sat I agree with WWW and believe with oil above $100 most airlines will be posting losses this year.... the industry looks screwed to me for at least a couple of years... what would be the point in carrying on and doing the ME/IR??

Do I wish I hadn't done the ATPL exams before I made my decision not to continue?.... hmmm not really because I love flying and it will improve my airmanship albeit hopefully in a YAK rather than an A320. Maths etc didn't stack up for me and I am in the fortunate position where I could blow £100k on it if I wanted to.... but I fully understand the desire young people have to chase the dream.... unfortunately when you pass the ripe old age of 30 I have found that reality rather than dreams have to start driving your decision making.

Some good advice on here though... I would wager that a large number of people who voted "it is great" are NOT professional pilots but actually still in training chasing the dream....

P.S. I paid for a CPL course that I am unlikely to use at a very good training school due to my relocation to the sandpit... if anyone wants to buy it at a BIG discount I can talk to the school and see if we can transfer it (that is a serious offer).

[Artie Fufkin]

Clearly mine is a minority view on this forum, but I think it was worth it.

From speaking with all the captians at work, half moan like hell. They say that they could be earning more, with better conditions, in more enjoyable jobs in other professions. The other half say that flying is the best job in the world.

I always find it very revealing that the guys who think the grass is greener elsewhere are generally the guys who came into aviation straight from school or uni. Those who had previous careers know just how cushy things are (at the airline I work for anyway!).

I used to work in the City and I dread loosing my medical and having to go back. Airline work is far more interesting, far less stressful and the hours are a fraction of City hours. Maybe I need a few more years experience to loose the rose tint on my "Aviators" but I know plenty of captains who still look visibly excited about coming to work, spend the entire way down to Spain talking affectionatley about their 35 year career and end the flight by begging ATC for a visual approach.

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

A low workload can be just as stressful as a high workload. Being on standby can be stressful, as can hanging around airports all day, every day waiting for pax.

[redsnail]

Superpilot, I reckon you're a troll but I'll bite.

Compare my working life to that of most pilots and there’s no comparison. I am not the only one, there are thousands of others like me and they work just as hard. Harder than most pilots for sure.

Gee, who's holding a gun to your head? Pity? You've come to the wrong site. You'd need to go to the PITSRN. (Professional IT Slave Rumour Network).
As for how hard pilots work? It does depend on the job and at what stage of the career you're at.

I'm out of the house/hotel room on average 14 hours a day. I consider all that time being at work. 14 x 5 = 70 hours a week devoted to my company with no overtime paid. Granted the daily rate is good (though not good enough for the level of work I put in) and this is the only reason why I am doing it.

Diddums. Most pilots are too. No over time either. No public holidays. No weekend rates too.

I have to physically achieve what in most other companies takes 3 people to achieve and in half the time! My work is of a highly technical nature and requires me to be completely ‘on-the-ball’ with absolutely no scope for failure.
What do you want? A medal? A chest to pin it on? Go to the PITSRN (see above) for the back slaps. No scope for failure? How do you think we feel when something fails on our aircraft? Hmm? Thrilled? Knowing that failure will result in any one of the following:- death, suspension, injury, damage. Posting on PPRuNe and armchair/Monday morning pilots/wannabees ripping apart our move? What happens to you if you fail? Oh. No job. Gee, that must hurt. :hmm:

I can say pilots have it relatively easy (provided they don’t commute silly distances) because I know a couple of Loco pilots who only work 5 days before they have a 3 or 4 day break. They are only ever out of their homes for 11 hours max; they don’t have to worry about the day ahead; they don’t bring their work home with them. And these two points are what matters. Stress is not a 20 minute turnaround. Stress is not a 15 minute walk from your car to your plane in the cold. Neither is stress a 30Kt X-wind.

Gee, you know some pilots. Wow. Can I shake your hand? I know some IT workers who only work 4 days, one of them from home and then they have 3 days off. := Jealous? No.
Don't bring the work home hey? Well, I and others study for our checks. Need to keep on top of the technical changes and SOP changes that occur. etc. Don't worry about the day ahead? Don't make me laugh. What about fuel planning? What about alternates? What about permits and visas? What about the condition of the aeroplane? 11 hour day? Suggest you review the Flight Time limitations and see what really happens.
You're right, the 30kt x-wind isn't stressful. It's fun. How about you join me doing one in Reykjavic at midnight at the end of a 12 hour day with blowing snow and hail and then you can put the covers on.

unsociable hours to get to where I need to be
And if you're catching a flight, how do you think the aeroplane gets going that early? Yesss, the crew are there even earlier.

:ugh:

[Luke SkyToddler]

Can't believe pilots think their jobs are stressful. Would love to know in what way.

If I’m at home, the day literally begins at 0230 when little one wakes up for his first feed. I wake up again anytime between 0500 and 0600 to cries of hunger. On average I'm out of bed by 0600. I would've had about 6.5 hours sleep with two interruptions of 15-20 mins.

Golly gee you're right mate, you deserve a medal there, clearly none of us working pilots have newborn babies or get up in the night to feed them :rolleyes:

For work I do a lot of travelling. A mixture of driving and flying. I fly to Europe on average twice a week and back, albeit as a passenger. I travel at unsociable hours to get to where I need to be. Far from being exciting, travelling for work is now all about a.) refuelling the car, b.) sitting in the 3/4 lane car park that is the M25, c.) waiting in huge queues to have my bags checked/passport control and d.) indigestion (fast food on the move). It's not enjoyable at all and I'd rather be upfront flying

Of course, real pilots never have to engage in the commuting / travelling grind. We never work at unsociable hours, or have to leave home two hours before reporting time so we can sit in traffic on the M25 with the rest of the plebs. We just wave a magic wand when we want to leave home and hey presto there we are preflighting the aircraft.

I work with twits who are not only incapabable of achieving the technical task for which they are supposedly qualified but who lack common sense and intelligence. I deal with people who don’t understand me and me likewise due to language barriers; people who don’t like me (because I’m a contractor on more money and my doings will eventually result in their redundancies!); uncooperative and sometimes downright obstructive people too.

One word for you mate. SERVISAIR

My work is of a highly technical nature and requires me to be completely ‘on-the-ball’ with absolutely no scope for failure. Often I’m not allowed to make changes during the day, so must stay behind and work till midnight. I must keep everyone happy whilst adhering to standards. I eat lunch faster than a biblical sized swarm of locusts can attack a field of corn. I’m asked to produce more documentation than is humanely possible.

Think about what you've just posted there. Then, think about how you imagine a pilot's job is any different. Then please do enlighten us.

I'm out of the house/hotel room on average 14 hours a day. I consider all that time being at work. 14 x 5 = 70 hours a week devoted to my company with no overtime paid.

Very similar to my lifestyle when I worked at my large European low cost airline then. Nowadays with the longhaul it's different, I spend 4 or 5 days at a time away from the family, get home for one or two, occasionally even three days off / standby, and then away again for the rest of the week. Of course, according to your theory, spending a couple days staring at the wall in some bland fleapit of a hotel in dhaka or lagos for the 28th time this year, trying to get your body clock adjusted before the bus arrives to pick the crew up at 0200 for your 11 hour flight home, doesn't count as working does it.

Compare my working life to that of most pilots and there’s no comparison. I am not the only one, there are thousands of others like me and they work just as hard. Harder than most pilots for sure.

I can say pilots have it relatively easy ... because I know a couple of pilots (my italics)

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Superpilot my friend, you have made some intelligent and thought provoking posts on this website in the past ... but that was definitely not one of them.

[Luke SkyToddler]

hahahaha, looks like redsnail beat me to it again. And every word of it true. Nice one girl :ok:

Superpilot you REALLY put foot in mouth with that one sunshine. Next time engage brain before pressing submit button on Professional Pilots website :hmm:

[timzsta]

Would I do it again? I am not sure. I got my CPL/IR nearly four years ago. If I did do it again I would probably have gone into it younger and not waited until I was 25 until I made a start.

I wasted a year after getting my IR applying for jobs, which realistically I had no chance of getting as I only had 200 hours and the market was not great.

But I have tried to do something about it and did an FI course and started part time instructing. For about 18 months I didn't really make an effort to get a job - I just concentrated on getting as much experience as I could and developing myself into a competent FI. I went part time in my other job after christmas so i could do more flying. But with the credit crunch now on I fear a big drop in instructional work is about to hit me.

Any hours are better then no hours I reckon. If you are sitting on a CPL/IR and no job get an FI ticket and get flying. You will make more command decisions as a part time FI over two weekends flying then most jet FO's will make in a year (standing by.....).

As you grow older enthusiam and energy do decline, and as you look at the world through more mature eyes you feel "what have I got to grumble about? I have my health and I can pay my mortgage (at the moment). Flying an airliner is just a job".

But I am also in the position where I have to work 7 days a week to pay the mortgage and there are days when I feel "i can't be bothered with spending another afternoon in a knackered old 152 teaching stalling for the umpteenth time. What I actually want to do is put my feet up".

So that really has re-invigourated me to seek that airline job. At least there will be days off. The T's & C's are never going to be what they used to be but at least there will be days off.

[Grass strip basher]

Blimey I didn't realise snails had teeth that sharp!

[redsnail]

G'day Luke :ok:

SuperIT,
Cheap thrills? No.
I still don't get why you're trying to big up yourself? Yesterdays work? No, I've never had to write crew reports/ASR/MORs the day after. No, never.. Never had to explain what happened to management. No.. not ever once.. :hmm:

About this time thing. If you don't get whatever you do done, then what? Hmm? Can I put off the landing until tomorrow just because I am too busy dealing with something? What could I be dealing with? ooh let's see. Trying to negotiate a permit to land via the Sat phone. I don't have the luxury of time either. I have to get it done now. Tomorrow's too late.

You might well think I have a poor understanding of what an IT person does. You're probably right. However, I don't go to the PITSRN (see above) site and bang on about what a legend I am because I can manage stress. BTW, this is my second career too so I do know what the so called real world's like.
:=

[ChocksAwayUK]

Superpilot is not trying to 'big himself up', or 'bang on about what a legend' he is. He was just illustrating the very valid point that most other reasonably paid jobs are more stressful and demand a lot more time at work that that of an airline pilot.

As a full-time low-cost airline pilot I'm amazed at how little time I spend at work. When I read posts of pilots complaining about the amount of work they do and the stress I can only imagine they haven't had a proper job in their life.

And redsnail, usually the PAX arrive at the airport about an hour before the crew for a specific flight - at least in airline operations. And you can't compare having to keep up with manual changes, notices to crew, write ASRs etc with the amount of real work that most jobs carry into their home life.

Back on topic. I've only been doing the job for just over a year and I'm sure there's every possibility that my outlook will change. At the moment, however, I love it and can't believe how lucky I am. I have a ridiculous amount of days (and afternoons) off. The flight time limitations just don;t allow to do as mush work as other jobs. I get excited about going to work. Sometimes as I get up at 3.30AM I feel like a kid on Xmas morning (seriously!). Despite the current climate I'm optimistic about the future, different fleets, routes and one day becoming a Captain (admittedly stress levels may rise then). When I'm not doing the fun bits of the job (take off and approach) I'm getting paid for drinking coffee, admiring the view and doing the crosswords (yes, and monitoring systems blah blah).

The vast majority of the old buggers I fly with love it. To quote one recently "Nothing gives me a bigger hard-on than going to work" and another "It's a job like no other really - wouldn't change it for the world." Not to mention all the retired BA Captains on huge pensions that have joined my airline, not always for the reason that they have several ex-wives to support! My father did 35 years at BA and loved it till the end (admittedly things have changed since then).

The money is pretty good, especially considering the time spent at work. Personally I wouldn't go back to a City/IT job if it paid 10 times as much.

Of course there are some negative sides to the job - I won't dwell on those too much as they're already covered in this thread and to be honest they're not a big issue to me.

I'm not saying for a moment that the more negative posts in this thread should be ignored. Indeed they are very valid points written by intelligent people with real advice and insight to give and should be heeded. I'm not denying their accuracy at all. I just think it would be a real shame if people who really would be suited to the job jacked it in because of the skewed (in my opinion) slant of this thread.

[corsair]

Chocksaway, who do you work for? My CV is ready and waiting, you lucky so and so. Clearly not Ryanair :} I am not being facetious by the way. It should be evident to you that you are in fact lucky compared to many. Hang onto that job. It does prove there a few airline jobs out there that are straightforward.

I think you will get some flak for this though:When I read posts of pilots complaining about the amount of work they do and the stress I can only imagine they haven't had a proper job in their life.

I'd get a tin hat, if I were you. Superpilot might lend you one.

Superpilot thinks being a pilot isn't actually actually that stressful at all particularly compared to his job. Which is of course why he wants to be a pilot. He will find out eventually one way or another unless his massive ego gets in the way.

I thnk what we have established is that a pilot's job can be as stressful as many jobs. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you get the good jobs like Chocksaway.

For all his smugness in describing his stressful day, superpilot missed one point. He obviously wants out of it. Because, guess what? It is very stressful! Yet he refuses to believe that being a pilot could be stressful. I think we all know otherwise.

But if you want upmanship, I could describe my last non flying job. I can outstress nearly anyone on that one. It was long hours, low pay, pressurised, physically exhausting and zero status and I was kept awake by the baby.

But this isn't the place to discuss that. What we are supposed to be discussing is whether or not the profession we are either embarking on or have been part of is in fact a bed of rose petals or just rose thorns or both.

I really could care less how bad it is in IT or international sales or on the front line in Afghanistan. Those topics belong in Jetblast. Thank you.

[usedtofly]

So then, as happens on pprune this thread has started to move in a different direction.

I just want to say this......

I LOVE my job.....I fly small TP .......all glass.....good mix of IFR/VFR

I have NO complaints whatsoever, the pay is good and the company is good.

When 'the phone rings' and I have to go to work, I just think 'how lucky am I ?'

It was not an easy road to get where I am but now I am here I would not swap for anything.

UTF

:):):):):)

[fade to grey]

Oh here we go again...
Super pilot:in terms of stress the reality is the captain is in charge of a multi million pound piece of machinery but more relevant is the fact that he/she is directly accountable for HUNDREDS OF LIVES everyday, this from time to time generates a little stress.

Maybe you don't make your sales targets as a cherryade sales executive or whatever the hell it is you do (I don't care) but it doesn't really matter and I bet you get weekends off.

Anyway you obviously want to join us in our stress free eutopia or you would n't be on here.If you ever make it the reality will hit you like a freight train.

grass strip basher - fantastic plan, wish i had thought of that 16 years ago....

[G SXTY]

Three stressful careers, and the consequences of failure:

(a) City financier / trader / project manager etc. Make a mistake, it costs your company money - perhaps serious money. You might well lose your job over it, other people might lose theirs in the fallout. I've seen it happen.

(b) Doctor / surgeon. Make a mistake, the patient on the operating table could die.

(c) Airline pilot. Make a mistake and you, your aircrew colleagues, your hundreds of passengers and any number of people on the ground could die.

Most occupations these days are stressful. That's modern life for you. What separates this one from (a) and (b) is that the consequences of mistakes are several orders of magnitude higher than any other career I can think of. Which gives one pause for thought on a dark horrible night.

Having worked in two of the above professions, I know which one I prefer. But don't anyone think that this job is all pushing buttons and impressing the hosties. It has stresses and strains which simply do not compare with any other job.

[No Country Members]

As this is drifting anyway, can I ask a slightly modified question? I had coffee recently with a chap I trained with a few years ago, and he told me that he is now so cynical due to similar experience to the thread starter, that even though he now works as a pilot, it is now only all about the money. He is looking for a new job now based mainly on how much someone is prepared to pay. Frankly I don't blame him, he has huge debts to repay when considering the total cost of training and being out of a career for many years. In this respect he is like many others.

Clearly there are plenty here who admit to having an easier transition into the world of flying work, and would probably answer "no".

To get to the point, hands up who think "yes"? I think I do.

[Mikehotel152]

One of the biggest stresses I had in my previous career was generated by my lack of enjoyment of what I was doing. It sounds trivial, I know, but it is cumulative and it drives you to the ground. It changes your personality. It gradually ruins your life. :suspect:

Within weeks of giving up that career and embarking on flying training I was a different person. The stress-related eczema I had put up with for years, disappeared. My wife had a new husband. My friends a cheerful new mate. Every single person I knew before I changed careers has commented on how happy I am. :}

Yes, there's the stress of exams, money and the increasing doom and gloom about jobs, but I am quite happy thank you very much. I know I made the correct decision. By hook or by crook I will be employed in the aviation industry once I am qualified, even if I'm earning £2.50 an hour teaching others to fly. It's better than going back to a daily routine that made me unhappy.

[Life's a Beech]

Can't I say "No, no regrets but also no desire to fly at 37,000 feet? FL100 perfectly sufficient for me"?

[chris-squire]

Im still in early days of my training (just finishing off PPL with ATPL's starting in 6 weeks time) so cant say I'm exactly in the know about post training issues....but the above post regarding money being the driving force in choosing jobs kind of struck a chord with me. Of course money has always been a factor but now so more than ever. Let me elaborate...I would love to try my hand at instructing for a while. Yes its great to build some hours and get paid but more importantly I think it would be a fantastic learning experience. I'll never forget the look in my instructors eye after my first solo...he was genuinely really proud and clearly got a massive buzz out of it, which I can really understand. But unfortunately I am shackled to a rather large loan from good old HSBC and the repayments would just not allow me to consider instructing unless there was absolutely nothing else purely because of the pay. I have a serious love of flying like most of you guys on here, but money seems to play a bigger part in choosing our career paths than ever before. Sadly! :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sorry but you are making the classic mistake of someone on holiday who decides to buy a small property there. Being a flying instructor is miserably repetitive work that is dangerous and very poorly paid - McDonalds offers better money I promise you.

But you were on such a high during basic flying training that you import some of that joy to the job of the bloke sat next to you. Try it. It wears off real quick. You won't like it and more importantly the £6k the FI course will cost you will take 20 years to repay on an instructors wage.

You have little idea of how casually the industry will discard and ignore your paltry 190hrs of flying experience. I've done that in 6 weeks and the fact you spent £50k> means nothing kid.

There is a really big really hard world out there awaiting Wannabes who often resemble lambs to the big shed with the drip tray.

WWW

[Deano777]

When I was a wannabe I used to dream of being an airline pilot. I first got interested in aviation during the Falklands War (my goodness, I am old), and all I wanted to do was fly. Now you could say I was the quintessential wannabe, everything that was me I read on here and see it in other people.
Left school, decided to start flying when I was 28 (I know I left it way too late). Obtained my PPL in 2001 still dreaming of that big job, my friends & family used to big me up and take interest in what I was doing which made the whole thing even more exciting.
Started my ATPLs, the same dreams and excitement was there, it's all I wanted to do. Then I started my CPL, passed this and thought that I was nearly there, passed my IR, not long now I thought. Then the next step was the MCC, this was great, I flew an airliner woohoo, this is marvellous, then did my FIC course and started instructing.
Not long now I thought, I then had an interview with an airline, did well, passed it. Next stage was the sim check, did well, passed it. Next stage was the job offer & base, then the type rating. Did the groundschool, passed that ok, jumped in the Sim, passed the LST etc etc. Then started line training, passed this too in minimum sectors, this is going swimmingly well.

Now the point I am making by typing all that up is that now I am actually there doing it, it isn't the be all & end all, it's pretty cool yes, does it get me excited? sometimes, am I lucky? well yes I think so, but it's just a job, and the aircraft I fly is great, but it's just another cockpit. When I first flew past the Swiss Alps I was amazed, now they are "just the Swiss Alps". Now I am actually where I set out to be all those years ago it isn't a big deal any more, it's almost an anti climax, this sounds ungrateful I know, and all you wannabes will be saying "piss off then, I'll have your job", but please remember I was you once, I wanted it so bad I jacked in a £55k per year job, paid £60,000 modular to achieve it. I wanted it as bad as all you guys out there chasing it, and when I look in here now I have every empathy with guys trying to get in the system.

From someone who wanted it more than anyone (we all say that), trust me when I say it isn't all that it cracked up to be, I do enjoy it, I put my finger on what made me feel this way about it; well when you are a lowly PPL etc looking upwards at the pinnacle , it feels great to know that you will be there one day; airliners, stewardesses, big planes, glass cockpits, great destinations. But as you start moving up, i.e. the first part of my post, the CPL, the IR, the MCC, the interview, sim check, TR groundschool, Sim, line training etc, this is a natural build up to achieving your goal, as you take each stage it starts to become less of a deal, from being a PPL & fantastically excited, to starting line training and being mildly excited. Can anyone else who has been through it see what I am saying?

Don't pin your life on it guys, it really isn't that big a deal. :ok:

[usedtofly]

www

Harsh......but true.....well said

Deano777

Less harsh.......but still true......again well said



As for the instructor thing, oh yes, it HAS to be one of the WORST jobs on the planet. I agree with every point www made....I would just add that a little too long spent instructing WILL grind you down to the point where you may well give up flying altogether.

Commercial flying is just a job (however now I have got past the sh**ty years I AM having fun).

Back to the thread....would I do it all again ?.......NO !

Have a nice day dudes, I'm off to fly :E

[Mikehotel152]

WWW - ever the optimist hey? ;) Were you ever enthusiastic about flying? Mind you, I suppose the Wannabes Forums need a depressing voice to balance the wide-eyed enthusiasm of the twenty-somethings embarking on careers in commercial aviation with as much naivity as young men joined the infantry in 1914.

Deano777 - I see where you're coming from, but surely your point is equally applicable to the lucky chap who gets to sleep with a beautiful woman every night (or conversely, a woman sleeping with a handsome man:E). Familiarity dulls the senses and encourages apathy. The lustre may have rubbed off your particular wine goblet, but it's still a better cup than the tin mug into which I pour my Special Brew...

There are two separate issues here: The Job and the current job situation. One is still a great career, the other is merely depressing and part of a well-publicised cyclical trend.

[Life's a Beech]

The answer to WWW is not to instruct unless you actually want to instruct. Don't do it for the hours, although they will help with some jobs. Do it because you want to be an instructor and it is an amazing job. Extremely underpaid, but really very good fun and not nearly as unsafe as WWW suggests (I don't know anyone who has been hurt doing it, and I know a lot of instructors. Eacch one who has had an aircraft problem got safely to Earth. No danger from the students hav actually been realised).

[redsnail]

A colleague told me some great advice.

"Always look for your next job while you're still happy in your current job."

This advice was especially relevant in Australia as your first couple of jobs would entail flogging around in the bush flying singles and twins.

However, whether your goal is wide bodies for Cathay or Emirates or lo-co B737s or A319s, plan your career wisely and with the above top tip in mind. (As usual, be flexible)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Guys, I was a flying instructor from the age of 18 to the age of 26 and for the bulk of that I was an unpaid volunteer (VGS unit). I've taught Gliding, PPL, CPL to Modular and Integrated student both cadet and self sponsored. Whilst I did it I had an absolute blast and did some pretty cool things and was very happy.

But my first job as a PPL instructor was given to me as the result of this instructors death in a C172:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/279603.stm

Spending lots of time in Group A aircraft doing stalls, lots of landings, simulated EFATOs and PFLs IS dangerous and most instructors can tell you a personal close shave tale.


MikeHotel152 - I am optimisitic about lots of aspect of life and trust me when I say things are pretty rosy in my garden compared to most. This does not stop me holding the view, backed by reason and argument and research, that we are facing a major recession for the Western airlines. For the typical Wannabe this will prove a disaster for several years.

I'm knocking on the door of 10,000hrs with a B737 & A319 type rating - I'm not pessimistic about my situation at all. Its the Wannabes that are potentially in deep trouble and lots of them don't know it yet..

WWW

[expedite08]

How come you left the instructing WWW? I would say now is a good time to get in to it, being as airline recruitment is going to be all but nill!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I left instructing because I wanted to earn a six figure salary and tool around in a jet.


WWW

[redsnail]

Me too. :E :ok:

[mikehammer]

So you are both tooling around in jets, any sign of the 6 figures yet?!!!

[redsnail]

I get paid in Euros, so yes. :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Including share options - yes.

WWW

[Luke SkyToddler]

Certainly earn a very healthy six figures USD equivalent (with no tax and free housing thrown in), although thanks to the current situation with the exchange rate I'm no longer anywhere near that in pounds or euros.

[mikehammer]

I get paid in Euros, so yes


I get paid in pence so yes also;)

[no sponsor]

Do not get into flying for the money. Over the next 20 years, pilots will get paid less and less. My airline gave everyone a 2% pay increase this year, which is effectively a 2.2% pay cut when inflation is factored in.

If you are getting into aviation for the money, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Six figure salaries are remote, and they will always start with a 1, and options are only good once they are cashed-in and the money is in your account.

[redsnail]

Mike, if you're going to be picky, then you could say I get paid in 7 or 8 figures. I do get paid in Euros as Portugal is where my pay source is.
BTW, I didn't start the 6 figure thing..

If I added up my package (no share options) and converted to GBP, then it's pretty close to the 100,000GBP mark. Not bad for 200 (inclusive of 22 days leave) days work.

For accuracies sake
98,000 Euro salary
~10,000 Euro per diems. (tax free)
Pension.
BUPA cover for my husband and me.
Other stuff too.

[hollingworthp]

Redsnail - now stop it, you're just rubbing it in :p

[redsnail]

And it's all yours once you get the hours and pass the command course. :E

[mikehammer]

Redders

Wasn't trying to be picky, was trying to have a laugh. Seems I didn't get the last laugh on this occasion! Didn't get the 6 figure salary either, maybe that's why!

I thought I was being funny, if not then I apologise.

[redsnail]

Sorry Mike, no worries. :ok:

[hollingworthp]

Looking forward to it but some years off yet :ok:

[IrishJetdriver]

I would say you need to try and get in to a carrier now. Loco such as Ryanair will be recruiting for some while yet as they still have 130 737s on order. The slowdown is happening and money is getting tight all round. if money is tight then the punters won't spend it at the flying clubs. Flying training is getting more expensive every day with prices of fuel. If you are in the position where you can afford a TR with a GUARANTEED job then get it done. Don't worry about salaries at the moment or what you fly. if you want to fly professionally you have got to be aggressive with your career.

I was looking during a slowdown between 99 and 01 and luckily got in before 9/11. Wasn't a fun time but I did instruct part time while keeping a few bucks rolling in with a full time job. Was it worth it ? Oh yes !!!!!!!!!!!!

[nich-av]

There's bound to be change in the flight training industry in the next 5 years... alot of change. There are flight schools that'll take steps that some other flight schools may not see coming.

This is all I can say for now.

[Mister Geezer]

It is worth it - very much so. Even when you get a crappy roster I always think what I could be doing otherwise - sitting at a desk from 9 to 5! Its a no brainer and I have been airline flying for nearly 5 years so the honeymoon period had worn off a long time ago!

I did instruct when I got my CPL in Jan 03 since the industry was still picking itself up. 9/11 happened right in the middle of my training. For me personally, getting my FI rating was without doubt the best decision I made. When I got my FI rating after I got my CPL, I was flying so I was current plus due to networking at my local flying cub I got my first job after 6 months of instructing. Nearly 5 years on from then, my FI experience has proven to be very useful since I have been made up to a Line Training Skipper and I have only been in the left seat for just over a year and I am at my second airline now. My superiors held my FI rating in high regard and the fact that I have kept it current and still instruct part time was probably a good omen as well. Perhaps I am just lucky but I do believe that the FI rating has helped me immensely in the career so far.

If you sit back for a moment then you are giving your peers the upper hand. Keep at it!:ok:

[stop, stop, stop]

My advice would be to stick with it. Maybe the airlines are changing at the moment, but the world would grind to a mere crawl without aviation.

I couldn't see myself doing anything else as a career. Regional UK based job. Good pay (relative!) slack roster (about 50 - 55 hrs a month) avg 1 nightstop a month and at least avg of 2 weekends off a month, if not more. In fact my wife gets a cheesed off that I am at home so much!


I would certianly go through all the hassel again, and boy has there been hassel and heart ache. :)

Just remember, that at the end of the day this is job. Jobs can get a little repetitve at times, but you get out what you put in!

Don't S,S,S!

[Mister Geezer]

stop, stop, stop

Plenty of time for your models then? ;)

[corsair]

After today! No bloody no. aaagh!:ugh: You know when you actually did nothing wrong and still get pulled over and lectured.

But I'll get over it. But the next time I walk. :}

[spinnaker]

My pennies worth:

Would I have done it all again,? yes, but differently. I most certainly would have stayed in the training sector as an instructor, by far the highlight of my career and a part of my life that I look back upon with much fondness. I would never have touched a jet, but I possibly would have gone turbo prop. Something I never did, much to my regret. I personally found flying jets in an airline environment, on many occasions a soul destroying experience, by far the most unhappiest days of my life, although I did enjoy the company of those that worked closest to me, FO's and Cabin Crew. The rest of it. Crap.

[CFW's]

Nope, not in a million years.

If I could go back 10 years, I'd get a PPL, fly just for pleasure without the hassle, and find something else to do that would pay the bills.

Never thought I'd say it ( doesn't help that I've recently been shafted by my ex employer- see Club328/PC forums) but that's how I feel right now.... have done for a while, actually.:{

[spinnaker]

Spin can I ask what was soul destroying?

Was it the overnight stops or company politics etc? Sounds like the actual flying and commaraderie (sp?) with your fellow pilots was good but everything else fell some what short of what you were looking for?

I guess its the same old rostering gripe, but a day off for me was a recovery day. The number of times I highlighted issues that were agreed by senior managers. The continual change from night to day flying became fatiguing and stressful. Management always said that any pilot who felt unfit due fatigue should report unfit and not report for duty. I did this, and it got me an interview. They wanted to know what it was that was making me unfit. It was the rostering I told them. They said it was legal and that was that. I went for a sim check immediately after one of the more punishing tours of duty. I passed it ok, but my performance fell way below my own standard. The training manager agreed. I showed him my roster (which was not that different from other pilots). He went ballistic, did he get anything changed, errr, no. I was working for the company, the taxman, and the mortgage company. I was working for everybody, bar myself. I had a house to be proud of, but one I could not enjoy, because I was permanently knackered on the occasions when I was at home.

Most (all) companies have a political bent to them, and that never troubled me too much. The final straw for me, was when I negotiated my own contract and the company ignored it! It was not until I walked away from my aircraft for the last time did anyone ever figure out, that a contract was a binding agreement between two parties, and for my part, I am a man of my word.

The guys I worked with are some of the best you could ever wish to meet, and the pride I felt, having people of that calibre working for me as a commander, was immense. A real privilege. If anyone ever got into a fix, or had a problem, I wanted them to think through their own solution, and if it seemed reasonable, put it into action. Let the success be theirs. They enjoyed it and they started thinking about the work they were doing. Sometimes they would come up with ideas, where I would have say, hmm ok, but today we'll have to do it my way and explain (time permitting) why. Camaraderie was strong, for me anyway. I don't recall ever having a serious cross word, and I always got 5 star performance from them, often confirmed by complimentary letters from passengers.

Before I packed in, I turned down four promotions. I had no issues with the extra responsibilities, but I had no confidence in senior managers to stick to their end of the bargain. This is something that is a must for me, particularly when I would have been more deeply involved with personnel matters. I didn't want to be branded a liar like so many of the senior people were.

I now run a small farm in the highlands. The winters are tough, but everything is run to my agenda based upon my own principles and standards. It isn't easy, its ruddy hard. I raided the piggy bank, emptied the ISA's and sold my house, and poured every penny into the farm. It's going well, very satisfying. I now have an approved egg production site, and a licensed egg packing station, all built from scratch, with just the few pennies that I had left in my pocket.

Am I now happy, you bet. :)

PS Mrs. Spinnaker has got her husband back :ok:

[raoul80]

This demonstrate that a pilot career isn't all in the life..

[spinnaker]

Indeed, I forgot to mention that getting assaulted by security every time I went to work was a factor.

I don't want to put new guys off, I understand the 'dream', but a few snippets of reality are, I feel, warranted. At least new blood to aviation goes in with eyes open.

[G SXTY]

I'm still new and enthusiastic, and quite literally living a dream. It's a fantastic honeymoon and I wonder how long the feeling will last. When I mention this to the captains I fly with, a few smile knowingly, but most of them claim to enjoy flying as much now as when they first started.

In the words of one 35-year veteran I flew with recently; "When I get to work, I'm as happy as a pig in sh!t."

That said, I'm lucky enough to be flying new aircraft for a decent airline, from a small base where everyone knows each other and gets on well, and where security are human. No question that the experience could be very different elsewhere.

[raoul80]

Any italian pilot experience?

[greenslopes]

Yes..............But I'd change a few things.
Never knock back a root(when the lights off looks don't matter),
Stop drinking when things become blurry,
Don't drink beer,red wine,white wine,rum and single malt in the same night,
chase more of the women,
get in writing the ole "yes I'll still give you blowjobs when we're married"!,
Apart from that I'd do it all again

[Machine Man]

Treeshaver - Don't you dare give up!!!
You are young, have qualifications you can use if you stay current!
Staying current is the key.

I started on the rocky road in 2000 aged 35. I hit the integrated schools just before Sept 11th! I got lucky in mid-2005. First turbo-props for 18 months then onto the 737. Been there ever since and trust me - it's worth the sh*t you go through to get there. :cool:

But, if you think it's going to be a smooth ride, you're in for a shock.
There are a few lucky people out there with golden balls who sail through it and end up in a top job - not my experience. :bored:

My success came from one decision and one action (oh and being a bit patient). I guarantee you they work and you will have heard them many times before:

1. GET AN INSTRUCTORS RATING. The only way to keep in current flying practice and rack up those important hours. I instructed part-time for nearly three years. Never got paid for it, instead taking payment by accepting flying hours for me to take the girlfriend out to lunch all over England (gotta keep her on side);). Absolutley knackering whilst holding a full-time job, but loved every minute of it. You will meet people in the industry, keep current and get good handling skills. It may cost £6k but is worth every single penny!!!:D

2. NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK.....NETWORK (I think you get the idea :p). I knew no-one and nothing when I got into this game. I now have friends in just about every airline in the uk. You will too if you instruct. Friends and acquaintances (did I spell that right?) will be only too glad to help - because we've all struggled at some point and know what it's like.
Do not pi*s people off, always be polite, help others if you can and it will be returned to you manyfold!

It's true, the fuel issue may lead us all in to dark times - not just in aviation. I have 2200 TT including 750 turbo-prop and 750 jet - I am wondering what the future holds for me. If I get laid off, I can tell you what I will be doing: NUMBERS 1+2 ABOVE! :ok:

Aviation is a tough industry, but even if I have to go back to my old job for a while, I won't regret having done it all. And remember things can turnaround in an instant in aviation. If you ain't current and ain't ready when your one chance comes - you only have yourself to blame. Harsh but true. ALL the people I trained with (and got through that Sept 11th period) are all now flying jets and earning good dosh.

QUIT AND YOU WILL BE MISSING OUT! :ugh::ugh::ugh:
KEEP THE FAITH BROTHER - IT WILL COME TO YOU IF YOU DO!

[Sam-MAN]

I'm only 15, so obviously don't have any experience like you guys.

However, I do understand that if I do become a pilot, there will have to be sacrifices. Not seeing family as much, away from home a lot, hard to organize things around your work life, but these are things I'm going to have to accept if I want my 'dream' to come reality :cool: I think it'd be rather naive of myself to become a pilot and expect to spend weekends with family etc :ok:

Sam

[VFE]

The training was undoubtedly a slog and I made a couple of wrong decisions with regards suitable FTO's which made the whole process more drawn out and painful.... at the time.

Now servicing a large debt and working as an instructor which on the whole I enjoy and still feel privilaged to be doing everyday at a school with decent people and decent customers...

The lure of the airlines has so far stayed at bay due to the fact I seriously doubt I could service my debt and afford to survive off a new FO salary away from home - the maths don't add up - for good or for worse....

Due to my involvement with GA various different GA job offers fall my way from time to time which, so far I have resisted because I enjoy instructing and want to excel to some degree before I move on. But needs must....

I find myself realising I need more money but the whole airline pilot thing to be just a job, I see fellow flyers dissatisfied in their airline but putting on brave faces to save face.

The only attraction towards the airlines for me personally would be the thrill of flying a bigger aeroplane which seems hardly enough to shell out for a TR and to endure what might *possibly* become a miserable existance as a line pilot at a typical ThriftyJet.

It's crossroads for me right now.

However, to get back on track - when I think about what I may have done had I not decided to become a commercial pilot (of sorts) I realise my life may have been more prosperous financially but I feel certain I would not be half the person I am today, would not have had half the amazing experiences I've had, would not have met half the number of strange and interesting people, and would not have had any sense of contentment with any other job.

In short - the journey so far has been an amazing life experience that few people in life can appreciate unless they've been there themselves. For that, I can never feel regret only a sense of personal achievement despite the financial cost.

So, would VFE do it all again? Yes. But, with the small proviso that parts of my training would've been completed elsewhere. Although I may not be doing too well financially I am happy at work and seeing as we all spend most our waking hours at work that is a big thing as far as I'm concerned.

When I started out wanting to be a pilot I only had one option to get there and that was to borrow and altho it now causes the most grief in my personal life because I see friends doing things with their money that I can only dream of, I still realise how lucky I am to be flying everyday and being paid enough to service my debt. These days I am not getting any further into debt, which is positive, and the debt I do have is getting smaller so it's all moving in the right direction. In the meantime I'm doing something I really enjoy. I could be a shelf stacker in Tesco with a gambling addiction but instead I fly everyday and tollerate the financial downside. Money is never the be-all and end-all in life.

The grass is always greener on the other side - be grateful for where you're at cuz tomorrow you might be dead.

VFE.

[spinnaker]

sam-MAN

I'm only 15, so obviously don't have any experience like you guys.

However, I do understand that if I do become a pilot, there will have to be sacrifices. Not seeing family as much, away from home a lot, hard to organize things around your work life, but these are things I'm going to have to accept if I want my 'dream' to come reality I think it'd be rather naive of myself to become a pilot and expect to spend weekends with family etc

Sam

A rather adult and mature view I feel.

To make a dream come true, there are often many sacrifices to make. Sounds to me, that at the age of 15, you have your head screwed on correctly. Well done.:D

[Desk-pilot]

Well, I'm in my second year as a 39 year old airline pilot on regional turboprops having spent 15 years in IT and Project Management so I have as it were seen both sides of the fence.

Working hours - I work around 160-170 duty hours a month of which typically 80 are spent flying. Mostly I work 5 days on and two off. I typically average 1-4 standbys a month and am called out on around a third of them. In IT I worked around 42 hours a week - so about the same, but I would say on the whole the time spent at work was considerably less intense than flying. I did have time to chill out and surf the web, email friends, take an hour or occasionally more for lunch or meet chums for a capuccino for an hour now and again. On the short routes I fly there's very little 'down-time' to eat or enjoy the view.

In IT I worked 8.45-5 or 6pm so my sleep cycles were regular, I went to bed 11-12pm every night and slept till 7am. In flying my roster usually involves three earlies reporting around 6am and working until 2-3pm in a row followed by two or three days late reporting around 1pm and finishing around 10pm. These days can easily get a lot longer if technical issues occur. I find it harder to get the required 8 hrs sleep in this job and feel tired more often.

My weekends with family are much rarer as a pilot, whereas I hade every weekend off in the old job and rarely took work home.

My pay in IT was around £55k pa as a permie in IT, whereas it's around £32k as a year 2 First Officer - less apparently than the Shell tanker drivers! After flight training I spent 18 months in IT as a contractor on a day rate of £440 a day so made around £100k a year for that brief period! My debts/mortgage are now £70k higher, if not more than that.

Despite all this I absolutely love the job and feel immensely privileged to be a pilot. I love the hardware, the flying, the views, the camaraderie of the crew and take great personal pride in doing a good landing or just coping with a new busy airport/bad weather/crosswind etc and trying to hone my skills. Perhaps the most rewarding thing is that you are never as good as you want to be as a pilot, whereas in IT I really felt my learning and personal development plateaued years ago - there was rarely any great satisfaction to be had and I was just bored by it.

I completely love the job and have none of the depressing feeling I used to get on Sunday nights - in short despite it all it's a great career and I'm very happy to have got there in the end.

Desk-pilot

[G SXTY]

I think Desk-pilot has hit the nail on the head:

Despite all this I absolutely love the job and feel immensely privileged to be a pilot. I love the hardware, the flying, the views, the camaraderie of the crew and take great personal pride in doing a good landing or just coping with a new busy airport/bad weather/crosswind etc and trying to hone my skills. Perhaps the most rewarding thing is that you are never as good as you want to be as a pilot, whereas in IT I really felt my learning and personal development plateaued years ago - there was rarely any great satisfaction to be had and I was just bored by it.

I work for the same airline (how do you manage a 'good landing' in a Q400?) ;)and have a similar background, albeit with a different previous career. Desk-pilot's words explain in a nutshell why I love this job, despite the not insignificant downsides.

I learn something new every time I go to work, picking up tips from guys who started flying when I was in nappies. Their advice sometimes saves me from embarrassing myself (and occasionally I get to return the favour - even twenty thousand hour captains make mistakes). No two days are the same, you never stop learning. I am a perfectionist, but I know there is no such thing as the perfect flight - there is always something you could have done better. That really is what makes it such an enjoyable challenge. And on the rare occasions I manage to pull-off a greaser, I find myself grinning like a kid at Christmas.

Don't underestimate the negative aspects of the job, because there are many. Don't underestimate the grief and sacrifice involved in getting this far (see my previous posts). If you truly love flying, however, it will more than make up for it. After a few days off, I start to get withdrawal symptoms. For me, it's the best job in the world.

[VFE]

After a few days off, I start to get withdrawal symptoms
As an instructor I may whinge from time to time with fellow instructors but just like G-SIXTY, after a few days off I get withdrawal symptoms.

I am less happy when I have not flown for a while, without a shadow of a doubt. Cannot say I ever experienced that feeling with any other job!

VFE.

[EK4457]

VFE- Quick question.

Why not get a job with the airlines and instruct part time? The electric autobus pays the bills and the Traumahawk still provides the thrills.

Just seems to me that life on an FI salary (right word?) is not possible.

This is very much my long term plan anyway and I fail to see the downside....

EK

[FlyingTom]

Absolutely, I'd do it again.

I was a 30 yr old career changer back in 2000. I remember WWW (thanks) on PPRUNE back then. I started as FlyingTomato, named after the VW Beetle I slogged up to Biggin in for my flying lessons, however my password never worked when PPRUNE upgraded so I had to reincarnate.

I set out with a distant aim, to work for Cathay Pacific or BA, and didn't much care for the details of how to get there. There was an awful lot of luck involved, more than I deserved. The best job was the least paid, instructing PPL, yet the most rewarding. I lost my first job before I ever started it, KLMuk (Buzz) thanks to O'Leary. For some reason I never gave up when faced with an impossible job situation back in 2003. My only enemy has been myself, mostly in the sim, luckily I exceeded myself in interviews.

Now I'm where I wanted to be, to be honest the BA selection was the easiest selection, I suppose I was on autopilot. Now I'm just moving over to LH and it's like starting off all over again.

The reason everything I've done has been satisfying is because my two basic needs were to fly, and to see other countries whilst having a beer in good company. Two easy tick boxes. The money was never an issue, I ended up with the same stupid debts as everyone else. I'm now paid very well. I don't even notice, my mortgage for a basic place is huge like everyone else. The time I had the biggest disposable income was at uni. Then I spent it on beer and travel, just like now really!

My only regret is giving up GA flying whilst getting my career off the ground, because I couldn't afford it. I'll be back real flying very soon though. :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

That's nice - I remember Flying Tomato. Going back a bit now. Glad it all worked out for you in the end.

If did a PPL when I was 17. Instructed on motor gliders from 18 until 24 then started intructing PPLs and then CPL IR's. Then I was lucky to join a B737 low cost airline 9 months before Sept 11th which a few years later was expanding and needed to promote people to the left hand seat at the first opportunity. My training costs were subsidised by the Queen and done in the days before JAA when everything was cheaper and children still had respect for their elders.

All of which is extremely lucky and the job is good fun, pays well and is really stimulating. I certainly wouldn't want to do anything else and I fully understand why people are desperate to chase their dream.

I wish you all as much luck as I have enjoyed.

Just be careful right now about how you finance your dream.


Its *IS* worth it in the end if you make it. That's all you really need to know.



WWW:)

[G SXTY]

There you have it ladies and gentlemen. Just to prove WWW does sometimes come up with a positive post. :ok:

You haven't been sniffing the crew O2 by any chance? ;)

[redsnail]

Yuech! Only dust free masks are the ones in the sim!! :ooh:

[VFE]

EK4457:

It is a good question and it simply comes down to the fact I live close to my airfield, I love the peeps I work with and get to fly over my house everyday and smile.

Sure, the novelty will wear off and after a coupla years now it's started. But I feel CERTAIN my experiences gained as an FI have made me more of a pilot (in the basic sense).

At school I was never a high acheiver and basically, out of most my original set of mates, I have exceeded the best in terms of a perceived job, so the money aspect so far has been clouded by a genuine sense of happiness at where I'm at right now.

But I shall look at the airlines the moment I feel otherwise.

Rule one in life: Never make a career decision based on money.

VFE.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Greetings all.

Excellent thread. I'm a newbie doing their PPL at the mo, looking into whether a career change into aviation is plausible so I hope you guys will tolerate a few naive questions!

At 26 I've spent 4 years as a mechanical engineer (does previous employment have any influence on pilot job prospects?) in building services and although I've got excellent job security and okish pay, it's can be boring, and with little job satisfaction. In that respect, the fact that the novelty of flying may wear off (if I go for it and make it) doesn't bother me - I know what a properly boring job can be like.

That said, from reading other threads on here, jacking in my job in the optimistic hope of training and getting paid to sit in a cockpit at the end of it would seem to be a bad move.

Anyway, the main question I wanted to ask was, does anyone know what pilot prospects are in the states? I may well have the opportunity to live and work there, so if I've got a better chance of getting a flying job there it's something I need to consider.

[redsnail]

Flamin Squirrel, when the US is good, it's very good, when it's bad it's disastrous. At the moment there's a big threat to many of the larger airlines with the threat of furlough hanging over many pilots.

You'll need a degree to get a sniff at the majors along with a lot of hours.

Being an FO for a regional will mean very little pay.

Generally in the US, low houred guys do not start on jets.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Thanks RS :)

I have a degree, so the hours will have to be something I work at. Something to think about when the economy picks up perhaps.

[capson]

well..have a job right now...been at it for 10 yrs, only after 9 yrs got my self a jet job.....but for how long anyones guess...:sad:.

I'll will discourage anyone who wants to be an Airline pilot.....It cost an arm and a leg and the rest... pay is abselutly crap....when you have a family....

I will never get my investment back...hell no...:ouch:

It is not worth...it....:mad::mad::*

[capson]

here is another my 2 cents worth...read this link......

http://www.dicksmithflyer.com.au/cat_index_44.php

[redsnail]

Dick Smith is not a professional pilot.

A lot of what he says is true but it isn't the whole truth.

Being flexible with your work choices and being willing to shift for a job.
You might think it would "suck" going to Africa or Scotland but you'd be surprised. You'll make friends (contacts :D ) and see things that will stay with you forever.

Much of how this industry is perceived depends on your career path and the amount of debt you're in.
eg
Work your butt off to afford an integrated course with minimal loans and timing that to finish as the economy improves and not ignoring the turboprop or bizjet market = flexibility.

Going into a huge amount of debt at integrated school, buying a type rating but the only job available is instructing, then you'll be annoyed.

Doing a modular course while timing it to finish during an up turn and spending a year or so on a turboprop then getting command. After that, going to a jet job and enjoying those new challenges will add a new thrill to your career.

Keep your exposure to debt to a minimum means you can enjoy choice with your career.

[Tony Hirst]

Being flexible with your work choices and being willing to shift for a job. You might think it would "suck" going to Africa or Scotland but you'd be surprised. You'll make friends (contacts :D ) and see things that will stay with you forever.
How well put is that? Presisely how my experience is unfolding at present.

[Fancy Navigator]

I answered "No" to the question, although I was going to opt for the middle one.

It was not a bad decision, but the decision was made almost 5 years ago, when the job market looked good. Now, the market looks awful!!! :{:{
I was very, very lucky to get that first job, since I had no contacts, etc.... Pure luck....Sometimes, you need it.

I still have a lot of debt to recover from, but I am getting there....:uhoh:

It is a job I enjoy a lot. There are also things I don't like about it, or things I am frustrated with....It is not always the "dream job", you know....!

[Craggenmore]

It is worth it and it is everything I expected it to be. I researched the job heavily, both pros and cons, and the only part that still surprises me is how much time I get off.

However, do not financially ruin yourself by getting into commercial aviation. I was fortunate enough to be able to do my flying training but also go back to another career if it all went wrong. But the important part is this....

If I had had a mortgage, plus wife and family, in no way would have I changed career to flying at 31 years old. It was a calculated risk that has paid off - the best kind of risk and the most satisfying.

I would not place £50k on Red #5, #15 or #23 unless I knew that there were high chances of the jack landing on them. Would you?

I also knew both sides of the coin before commercial flight training having worked in sales and marketing for 7 years. Once I had the flying bug it was an easy but very well thought out choice. I asked myself questions such as how will my life change, will I enjoy it, will I still see my friends at weekends etc... I made sure I knew all these answers before I started. Now when I do miss a party or an event I realise that there will be another one soon that I can attend. Not all things in life are attendable no matter what occupation you are in.

At my age most of my friends are married with kids so I rarely miss something like I would have 10 years ago. This brings me to say that in no way could I have done this job when I was in my early twenties. Once again planning was an important factor in changing career.

After training I instructed for a while which eventually led to passing selection onto jets. However instructing almost led to air-taxi work and small biz-jet work due to contacts made at my PPL flying club. Now I'm on the 319, only one and a half years in, and earn over 50k. Do I miss not having flown turbo-props - yes - but not the low salary. Anyhow, as I'm in my mid thirties and nowhere near retired, perhaps one day I will.

Other factors that make me have few regrets are that I'm still not married, have no mortgage and my girlfriend flies and earns double. This is hugely important and goes along way for lifestyle and stability. I find that previous girlfriends who worked Monday to Friday never had a clear grasp of aviation, what my lifestyle entailed and how I become affected by what I do - the sleep patterns and fatigue in particular.

Anyhow, we plan our rosters around each other’s and I go on plenty of trips with her. As my roster allows 4 days off after a working block of 5, two days holiday gives six days off - enough for a £120 return to CPT or SFO. I met her due to my career change and I'm incredibly thankful for that. I’m sure that marriage and kids will follow soon so part time will beckon. Both our companies have this option in place.

Please remember that these are my experiences and my experiences alone. I understand that other pilots on here will work for different airlines, have different rosters and days off, will have varying sizes of mortgage and also have family not involved in aviation but these will be their experiences/choices.

I’m sorry that people still do type ratings without signing a contract first. Ten seconds research on PPRUNE will tell you not to this.

Aviation has given me much and will continue to do so. I've worked to be where I am and have made sound choices along the way. If I had made different choices then I would be writing a different post.

I do moan from time to time like anybody else but this is my bigger picture

To summarise, So far - so good.

[rons22]

pros and cons for both integrated and modular.

Integrated will be quick, not that much more money and better chances of descent airline job so you dont have to work in low paid jobs for years.

Modular: you can have another career as a back up, can take long time to complete and if you have wife/girfriend, you better keep buying them flowers and be sweet to them all the time. lol

Would i do it again. NO! :=
As in current market people are paying money to airlines just to work for them, when I started my training, airline companies were giving sponsorships and respect to pilots.
With hindsight, I would have done cheap PPL course in the USA and fly privately for fun.

[G SXTY]

Integrated will be quick, not that much more money and better chances of descent airline job

I'll leave to one side the 'better chances of a decent airline job' bit because I can hear a can of words being opened.

However, to say that an integrated course is "not that much more money" is simply not true. I went from zero hours to CPL/IR + MCC for around £45k all in, including accomodation while away from home. With hindsight I could have done it cheaper, and I managed to get a very decent airline job at the end of it.

FTE's current price for their integrated course is over €102k. Oxford's ATPL course is £63k.

Whichever way you calculate it, an integrated course is very much more expensive.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You can do a modular course faster than and integrated one. Easily. And you'll be in control all the way.

When you hand over that cheque to FTE/CABAIR/OATS you become a sausage in their sausage machine and you are regarded as such. Threaten to stop writing cheques at a smaller Modular school and the owner will have you in his office with biscuits withing the hour.

Trust me, this makes a difference.

WWW

[Grass strip basher]

Please stay on topic folks... would be a same if this interesting thread degenerated into an integrated vs modular debate... that is not what I believe the original poster started it for...

[G SXTY]

Fair point Grass strip basher but the problem is that these pages are read by a lot of very young, very green wannabes whose only experience of aviation is MS flightsim. Understandably perhaps, they tend to believe what they read here. Add in some slick FTO marketing, and before you know it mum and dad's house is put up as security for the loan. Honestly, I've had PMs from 16 year olds who can't wait to get into £70 grand's worth of debt. I'm sure WWW gets them too - it's scary.

So for their sake, incorrect statements like:
Integrated will be quick, not that much more money
need to be put right.

I'm not a pedant, but there is too much money at stake in this game for people to be making huge life changing decisions based on dubious information.

Anyway, back at the thread - as I may already have mentioned, it was worth every minute of the grief! :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have to back this up.

There is not a day when I don't get PM'd or Emailed by a teenage Wannabe who has persuaded the bank of Mum & Dad to put their house on the line in order to finance their £80k dream.

Its shocking, worrying and wrong.

In 1997 when the RAF decided that they would probably cope without me it costs £41k to attend the full time CAP509 course at BAe in Prestwick. I thought it was a lot of money at the time. A decade later I find people without even a PPL being blase about spending double that and possibly adding a type rating for another £20k.

This has been the decade of loose money. Of hyper house inflation.

The next decade will be one of tight money. Of hyper house deflation.

There will be a big impact on Wannabes. I haven't quite got the mental capacity to work out just what the impact will be. But it will be big.


WWW

[geordiejet]

I think airline flying will go from being a career for the affluent to a career that only the mega-wealthy will be able to get in to.

More pay to fly schemes (and they are getting more expensive!). Increased training costs. And fewer jobs. Meaning only those who can splash the cash will have a slight chance at getting a job.

The lack of funding out there is pretty painful (I tried increasing my 7.2%APR loan with egg by just a couple of grand - and they offered me 25%(!) for the entire loan - I didn't take them up on the offer - electing to just save for a little while. And I've a perfect credit record and a decent paying job.

I've noticed unsecured loans of any large amount must now be paid within 7 years (10+ years was easily achievable when I took out my loan 18 months ago), increasing the monthly payments of loans. Negative equity is already a factor for a small portion of the UK - and this will only get worse.

As for securing £80k + on parents homes at this time - crazy!

I also feel times are bleak for wannabes right now. But I am taking precautions to safeguard against this - and not charging like a bull, along with the deed's to my parents house into the unknown!

[BerksFlyer]

WWW,

Out of interest, being well versed with your ideas about university if you want to be a pilot, would the current climate change your opinion on going to university instead of starting training now if you're a youngster?

Of course the debt involved remains, but with the student loan system in place, it's hardly as risky as taking an obscene loan to train.

Do you reckon in times like these it's good to start establishing a decent career and earning some decent money whilst aviation goes through the doldrums?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Three years and £12k is not something to spend lightly. Unless you do intend to use a specific degree then I really wouldn't bother.

I'd rather see a child of mine go off for three years traveling and working abroad. Hell, a couple of years in India or China learning a bit of the language and the culture would probably be the best preparation for life in the 21st Century.

Go and work as crew on some private yacht. Get a job on the oil fields of Kazakhstan. Get free board and lodgings as a stableboy to a racehourse owner. Do something, anything, that doesn't end up in a 2:1 from Durham in Management Studies/Geography/Maths for which there are no jobs no demand and a lot of sitting in boring lecture theatres persuading yourself that another night in the Union bar followed by a hilarious traffic cone and keebab incident is living life large you crazy cool dude.

You are a long time dead.

You are food for worms.

Its a big World.

School doesn't matter.

etc. etc.


WWW

[James_H1982]

If you are any good at a technical subject i.e. maths/physics etc then you can quite easily get a very good return on investment.

I did a 3 years Maths degree at a red brick, and within 6 months of graduating I got a job in one of the city Investment banks.(despite not even getting a 2.1 or being on any grad scheme)
I'm now 26 and in that time I have paid off a 12k student loan, saved up the funds for a modular course, got a PPL and had haven't had to skimp on spending money.
Despite the economic conditions there is still plenty of hiring going on in the city, just not in the credit/mortgages businesses. Especially if you have a Maths/Physics based degree.
However if your going to get a non specific Humanities degree or similar, then I wouldn't bother.

[Brainstorm]

A good education outside of the cockpit has a lot to offer and I think a good degree (science, business etc) is a good start in life. I would encourage anyone who is a pilot to invest in something else as a fallback as this is an unstable industry.

I work on the side as an engineer on various design projects, and I am getting lots of offers for work at the moment. The work is well paid and people are well looked after (as opposed to aviation industry!).

And it is not boring at all, no more boring than spending 10 hours at a time in LNAV and VNAV!

[dragonfly6]

got two mates who went into investment banking out of uni. they both did non-specific humanity degree's. Both are doing well. one has a family.

Met plenty of guys at flight school straight out of school at 18. Most are now on a medium jet FO salary at 20. Not a bad effort.

Got other friends who sacked off uni and went travelling, worked on yachts and in bars and generally saw the world. they are now pushing 30, have no career, no house, little money and no qualifications.

guess its a question of priorities.

I wouldnt say a degree is uselss. It may not be for everyone but it certainly isnt a cone on head kebab down trousers certificate. Its almost a pre-requisite for most sought after lines of work.

[smith]

Nowadays with most local colleges and polys becoming "universities" its virtually possible to get a BSc in Hairdressing or Flower arranging, basically now a BSc is the absolute minimum. Same in the states where to get a decent job an MBA or other masters is the prerequisite. A degree in "fashion" on its own just aint gonna get you anywhere.

[JB007]

Ditto on WWW life sentiments...well said! :ok:

This is aimed more at those of us employed flying with good companies, but IMHO what is becoming apparent, maybe without us knowing it yet, these could be the good old days!?!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/party/party-smiley-020.gif

[JB007]

P.s I get really sentimental after a glass of Merlot or two...http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/ernaehrung/food-smiley-006.gif

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Some of my best post have been made after a few Merlots... - where do you get your smilies from JB007 ?


WWW

[BerksFlyer]

Or go get yourself an apprenticeship, earn money for 3-4years and then have an actual trade and relevent qualifications...

I've thought about this in-depth and researched it quite a lot. However, I can't find any sort of apprenticeship that would suit me. Without sounding like a nob, I'm more of an academic than a practical handy man type guy, and it seems most apprenticeships are geared towards the latter. Any ideas?

[360 degree mason]

That is how I got started.

Started Apprenticeship in 2001.
In 2003 did first trial lesson. Stopped flying lessons got laid off after finishing apprenticeship due to company takeover.

Now I am resuming lessons again as from April this year, and good jobs in my field are common, AND I have something to fall back on if all goes boobies-up.

I would recommend doing an apprenticeship.
:):ok:

Edit: Berksflyer - I was a Network Administrator in IT:8 before I became a "handyman"

[ElCapitano8]

Edit: Berksflyer - I was a Network Administrator in IT:8 before I became a "handyman"

I wasnt going to say anything ha :ugh::ok:

I was a very well qualified 'handyman' :E

[jaimz1982]

Hi everyone, I thought I would add my opinion to the post.

I see that there seems to be a slight bias to getting a 'backup' to flying, I agree with the sentiments, but what if you have always wanted to do it? why delay it? Why not go straight into flying at 17 / 18 and do an integrated course (if your financially able). That way you maybe be flying a nice shiny jet around at the age of 22/23. Then if your career becomes favourable, do a degree / masters when time permits.

I personally think you should give your all into any career you want, whether it be flying, building, mechanic, IT solutions, anything at all.

Also before I get replies saying you need a backup etc, I do agree and I myself have had the pleasure of uni twice and have a small sentence after my name, but I would trade it all to fly. Why? becuse the boredom and the stress of working 80 plus hours a week almost did me in!

However, going back to the original post from Treeshaver, the fact it has taken, I believe 2-3 years and no luck, well just keep going, your luck will change, it has personally taken me 2.5 years of hard work / research / dedication to just get on the CTC scheme. So when I come out in 2 years time, that's almost 5 years spent on trying to fly!

I believe if you want something it's a matter of doing the research and finding the best way of achieving your goal, to me CTC appears to be the best way, hence why I worked so hard to get it. I did get a break and the fact my gfs Dad is a BA capt really helped, (Moral support and masses of advice) but it was 2.5 years of getting rejected then studying, rejected, studying then a break and then I got it! It's not always a case of working harder, but working smarter. Very easy to say, but not easy to implement.

[Aerofoil]

I can totally sympathise with your situation and as someone said near the start of this thread there aren't many people who have positive stories to tell in this forum and I am also guilty of this. People who have gone through training and whom are now flying for airlines don't post here apart from saying thanks to everyone for their help so you probably have a clouded view on what you have to look forward to as a pilot.
I have friends who fought for 5+ years to get their first job. They admittedly were looking for work just after 9/11 but they are all now flying for airlines because they stuck with it. I was VERY lucky to get that email i was waiting for after just over a year of constant searching, applying and networking. I'v been flying professionally now for almost 18 months and I can honestly say hand on heart that i feel priveleged to be doing what i'm doing and as a youngster when i started to have passengers more than double my age giving me a level of respect I have never experienced this adds to my affirmation that i have done the right thing and persued something i DREAMED of doing!

I can understand in the current climate you may be tempted to follow another career path and i'm not going to sit here and tell you what to do but what i will say is at the very LEAST get yourself instructing part time alongside your new job. Take any flying you can get and build your hours because if this was a dream to you a few years back it will still be a dream when the industry picks up again and in that situation you have kept yourself current and built your hours and can be in there with the best of them to fight for that job that will get you flying for a living. And for the love of god don't listen to these pilots who say it doesnt really pay the bills...tell me of a job where you get the office we get and you're paid £90,000+ a year (capt) to do something that was once a hobby and a dream, when the average wage in the uk is around £22,000 maybe a bit more!

Don't ditch the idea completely is all i'm saying and keep your hand in if you are going to do another job for the time being.

[Another TD]

Ryanair are offering those who complete a type rating with them jobs at this time. Many people have obtained employment after paying for their type rating with minimum hours but on the brink of recession maybe now is not a good time.I am in my late forties and know it is the only way I will get a job in the rh seat.

[jaimz1982]

I think you have to ask yourself how badly do I want this? Am I prepared to spend the next 10 years of my life paying back a mortgage that effectively all there could be to show is a piece of paper with a licence on it? That's the potential brute reality, no flying job, working in an office staring at a comp and hating what you do.

But there's the flip side, in 10 years maybe you have got into a long haul carrier, maybe you are a SFO, maybe you've had kids, wife etc and are Captain on shorthaul. You really never ever know.

These are the questions I asked myself, yes i am prepared to put my nuts on the line, yes I do want to fly a plane more than anything in the world, yes I am prepared to maybe go back to my old life for abit. But I won't rest until I'm up there!

My gf's Dad is a 747 BA captain and he's my inspiration, and ill work as hard as I can to emulate him, ill give it 100%.

He's always said to me, 'never tell yourself you can't do something, there's always someone else outthere that will! And if they do, just prove them wrong'

Well it's worked so far!

Best of luck with CTC, been there and I'm off in October, I can't wait!

[redsnail]

jaimz,

Yep, I agree if you're heart's set on becoming a pilot, crack on. But, and it's a very real but, I know several people who've splashed the cash to get all the training and ratings done to lose their medical. They weren't old at all. Late 20's to early 30's.

1 had a bike crash and it resulted in a head injury. No medical.
Another developed migraines causing visual disturbances. No medical.
A study buddy developed a condition that has left him unable to hold a Class 1.
An instructor fell over and damaged her back, no more medical, therefore no more job. To make matters worse, her employer hadn't paid the proper insurance. No money and no job.

A few others have fallen by the wayside simply because they ran out of money to keep the IR current while looking for jobs. If you finish during the early part of a down turn, there's just no jobs for low houred guys. Eventually, keeping every thing current just bleeds them dry.

You do need a back up OR a plan to take any job while waiting to get a flying job. If it means labouring or driving a truck/taxi, so be it.

[jaimz1982]

Hi Redsnail,

I completely agree, you have to be exceptionally careful and understand all that could be thrown at you.

The medical, fortunately I have insurance for that (It's actually part of the agreement with CTC and you cannot do the course without it) I've also seen at first hand how it feels to have the medical taken away from you, my gf's Dad was recently mega ill and had his licence revoked and he's a jumbo Captain for BA, fortunately he has got it back.

But yes as I write this there is a chap opposite me, fully CPL IR'd up from Oxford who cannot find a job. I am fully aware what I am getting into and I think anyone who gets into this sector should be fully aware. Spending the best part of 100k and paying back best part of 140k is not something to do lightly.

But I would also say that there comes a point when you have to go for it, not neccessarily me, but anyone who wants to get into it. Surely there comes a point when the talking and dreaming has to stop and you have to put what you want to do into practice? Then when you get the licence, the road starts again, but then what? stop? wait for a job? Hell no, you network, get advice, apply like crazy, bottom kiss, do what ever it takes to get your foot on that ladder.

It may take a miraculous 2 years, it may take 10, but I think I'd rather give it a go than sit in an office at 35 going what if?

But as stated redsnail, its an eyes wide open situation! What's that saying, 'aim for the best, but plan for the worst'? Think it's something like that!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Between 1991 and 1994 there were NO JOBS. In 1990 and 1995 they were like rocking horse poo.

In 1998/99/00>Sept11th there were jobs all over the place and in 2005/6 they were getting desperate and hiring whole courses of self sponsored type rating guys over the phone.


This industry is boom and bust personified.

We are currently in an early stage of bust. The difference to you as a low time wannabe is like night to day. I just wouldn't bother. Do something else for a couple or three years. Then come back to your dream. Its about to morph into a nightmare so you may as well be somewhere else.

WWW

[jaimz1982]

WWW,

I would have thought it better to train during a downturn? I mean if you are as you said night and day away from being a pilot, then by the time you finish the training, you could be what, maybe dawn?

This is exactly my point, I have spent my years up London, doing the corporate thing, I can very easily go back to it, do I want to? NO, does any wannabe want to? NO, but what do you do? listen to the gloom and doom which even my gf's Dad listened to 25 years ago, or do you bite the bullit and go for it?

As said in a previous post, in 10 years time I could have the most expensive piece of paper I will ever own, or I could be a SFO, you really never know.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Nobody can say for sure when the best time to train is. For you it might be now.

Generally though I would say it is well worth trying to get your timing right. You have a very small window at the culmination of your £70k training course when you are fully up to speed and ready for a first job type rating and line training. As the months roll on you get rusty very very quickly and your rapidly acquired skills rapidly diminish.

Spend a year or two or even three without doing some demanding flying and frankly you'll be rubbish compared to those competing for the same job who are fresh out of training.

THAT is your problem and THAT is why it is desireable to keep your powder dry and enter the first job market is not at a great time then at least not as a disaster time like 1991/2/3/4. Which is where I think we are right now.

Why not quietly get on with a PPL and IMC rating and start distance learning the ATPLs whilst building some hours in the logbook. Take 24 months doing so before you commit to exams and CPL's and Multi ratings. In the meantime continue to save. At least it will allow you to pay for an additional Instructors rating or SSTR on a commercial type.

Being in a hurry to get basic training done is a bit pointless at the moment.

WWW

[G SXTY]

gc2750
That sounds like a very sensible plan, and no, you are not too old in your mid-thirties. WWW has perfectly summed up the way this industry works.

Guys - success in this game doesn't depend on how good you are or how much money you have. It really boils down to two things - timing and contacts.

This is a bad time to be starting commercial training. If you qualify when there are no jobs, you won't get a job. End of. You'll then have to tread water for two or three years waiting for the market to improve. Maintaining IR currency without flying commercially is cripplingly expensive - I'd say it's nigh-on impossible. Even if you do manage to stay current, you'll be competing with all the people who qualified after you and are fresh out of training. Qualify when the market is booming, and unless there's something seriously wrong with you, you'll find some sort of job with someone, somewhere.

Contacts are absolutely everything. Network like crazy. Contacts can get your CV to the top of the pile, can help you with interview advice, can help you with sim preparation. Remember that this industry is an incredibly small world; make friends and keep in touch with your old PPL instructor - in a few years time he or she might be an FO who 'knows someone'. Never, ever p!ss people off in this business, everyone has long memories.

Remember those points and you will be on the right track.

[fiftypercentn1]

the queston you should ask yourself my friend is:
If you hadn' t tried at all, would you be happy now?
if the answer is yes, then maybe this business is not for you in the first place. If you want to fly there is nothing else you want to do for a living (at least that s the way it s always been for me). and yes, that s considering the long days, the though times ahead, the long and hard way to get there etc..
the way i see life is as a big bet. always try and believe, otherwise what is life about?

best of luck

[Uncle Fred]

After having skiined through most of the posts on this thread, I can see optimism from some with a realism borne of experience from others.

There is almost nothing worse in life to have not at least tried to follow your star. If it does not work out, we live in a world where one can go back and start at something new. Indeed that is not always a comfortable position to be in financially, but why be ensconced in an office cubicle at the age of 40 wondering what it had been like to have flown and looked out over the horizon. Sure the career is nothing like it was (and even then for a very very few was it a real lifestyle)

For those who are interested, this was very much the theme of my short book and I have been told it has served as a mirror to many who have read it as I ask that very question - "Was it worth it?" I was lucky and had the chance to do what I wanted and that was to see the wider world, but the price as of late has been high as I watch the U.S. airline industry crumble and implode.

Of course I would like for you to read my thoughts in length, but I am a VERY firm supporter of the camp that says - follow your voice - if you want to fly do it!

Amazon.com: The Outer Whorl: Neal A. Schier: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Outer-Whorl-Neal-Schier/dp/1425774822/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6538142-9458215?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189294447&sr=8-1)

[ums]

In Australia there are Flight Training organisations that cannot retain their instructors; they all move on into airlines after a relatively short time because there is a dire shortage of pilots here.

I personally have over 1000 hrs, after only starting flying in 2003, all privately funded by my primary job. If I were not on the wrong side of 50 yrs of age I might consider a career in aviation.

When you are young you have time and health on your side, don't turn 50 and look back wishing you pursued a career as a pilot with regret.

I know the starting wages, by comparison to my industry (Information Technology), are lower and at times depressing, and would go a long way towrds explaining why airlines have a poor retention rate, but if you truely are obsessed by flying, like me, hang in there.

[mikehammer]

Will I be too old at 33?

Nope. Am 40 and in first year of proper flying job.

[Brainstorm]

Often when I say what I do for a living I find that people are keen to hear that 'it is not that great after all' i.e. long hours, never get to stay at the places we go. It is all justification, I guess it makes people feel better about their boring but 'sensible' jobs. After all, they get Chrismas off, and good benefits.

I can't think of anything worse than looking back and knowing I failed to do what I really wanted to do. It would be a life full of regrets.

[no sponsor]

GC2750

That is pretty much what I did. It worked for me.

[Sciolistes]

Nope. Am 40 and in first year of proper flying job.
I'm the wrong side of 40 and in my first flying job flying the 737 with 300hrs. However, although I wouldn't be here without sufficient hard work and good judgement, I was the glad recipient of luck of the most jammy variety. It is difficult to reccommend answering the call given that I doubt many will be fortunate enough to take the route I have, never mind willing enough to go through the personal upheaval it entailed too.

[Uncle Fred]

Perhaps another way to look at this question would be to ask "Are there other pursuits in life that can give the same sense of reward/satisfaction that flying has?

What I mean by this is that it is right and proper to ask others if they thought that their path was "worth it," but since no one's path is exactly like anothers then it might be best to ask why is aviation exerting a draw on me and what do I expect (or would like) to gain from it? I know that is a difficult question to answer, but if you can then you can compare it to other pursuits that you have in mind.

Sounds like a rather verbose thought, but if one is tipping toward middle age and is thinking of taking a step toward flying, one must ask what exactly is one trying to find? What is the motivation. If you ask others if they think it was "worth it" then be sure to also ask what motivated (or still does) them to take up the calling.

Just MHO

[piperindian]

I would not do it again. Its too difficult to get a job and too much uncertainties in this industry. we had the fun of experiencing 09/11 job market with major airlines bust
I have seen many of my friends who could not get a job, any job (even with 500 applications)

As others have said, the timing must be perfect which is not obvious, especially when working at the same time which i did, since a JAR fATPL can then take 2-3 years at least (who can predict what happens in 3 years times ?)

I think it is even a better idea to buy a private airplane and fly for fun on week-ends, even IFR.

if your father is chief pilot or owns an airline, do it for sure however

[Canada Goose]

Well the "Regretfully So" contingent is currently at 17%. I suspect that over the coming months, possibly years, if this thread continues this number will rise, regretfully ! FYI, I'm still in the "Neither a bad nor a good decision". That said I have been a little remorseful over the last couple of weeks when I think of all the hard work (I'm mainly thinking ground school here ) and money (I'm thinking MEIR here) that has been expended, and the dawning reality is I know I've missed the boat and by the time it's ready to set sail again I'll be shuffling around looking for my pipe and slippers ! At least over the last few years I was in with a chance, albeit a smaller one at my age.

Good luck !