OpenSkies? Sell your soul

[Nigel_the_Normal]

I've just had sight via email of some of the employment contract for OS.

It's like Ryanair on a bad day.

Still if what I have heard is true most of the FO's are not English so anything goes when you're desperate. Very sad.

Unless we fight these idiots this is the future of our profession, exactly what the Leprechaun wants.

" The Company may extend your probationary period by giving notice to you. You or the Company may
terminate your employment at any time during the probationary period by giving no less than 1 month's written notice."

"You acknowledge that it is a material term of the contract that you will be required to be flexible to accommodate the changing demands of the business of the
Company and its Associated Companies. The Company may vary any aspect of your role and duties from time to time."

"In each applicable bonus year the Company will determine in its absolute discretion whether any bonus is payable and the level of any such bonus."


"The Company may instruct you as to when all or part of your holiday entitlement should be taken. You may be required to work on any public or
statutory holidays without additional remuneration. The Company may cancel any planned holiday in the event that business reasons require it. In such circumstances
you will be permitted to rebook the holiday
You will be operationally assigned to a cluster of airports within Europe (a "Cluster'? and a nominated airport within that Cluster from which your flying cycles will
normally begin (a "Gateway Airport'). The Company may at any time and at its sole discretion: (a) change your nominated Gateway Airport; (b) change the airports
included in a Cluster; and/or (c) change the Cluster to which you are operationally assigned"


"You will work such hours as the Company rosters you to work. Rosters will be made available at a reasonable period prior to each flying cycle. The Company may vary
the rostering arrangements at any time"

[SOTV]

Well. If ever MOL is incapacitated Willie is a shoe in.

:(

[joe two]

Probably the same conditions as at Flyglobespan , XL , Jet2 , Astreas plus all the mainland-europe 757 or 767 operators.

Old aircraft and unstable airlines , not the top terms and conditions.

What else is new ? Openskies certainly not.

Next.

[757 Speedbrakes]

Probably the same conditions as at Flyglobespan , XL , Jet2 , Astreas plus all the mainland-europe 757 or 767 operators


Which is probably why there are some from each of the above airlines who've gone to join OS.

I imagine Nigel, you are from BA? The strike is none of my business but I hope BA pilots don't take it out on those who OS has empolyed.

Then again, most BA crews ignore everyone else from other airlines anyway! :rolleyes:

[Hand Solo]

Then again, most BA crews ignore everyone else from other airlines anyway

Of course they do, they can't be arsed listening to cheap digs like that from yet another comedian. Anway, I never ignore another airlines hosties.:E

I hope BA pilots don't take it out on those who OS has empolyed

You mean all those guys who broke the IFALPA recruitment ban?

[wee one]

Ive read the open lies contract and can assure you ,most charter contracts despite the usual issues, have none of that crap in it.
As for the ones that allegedly may be going from xl or jet2 etc.I Am not immediately aware but looking at the the usual trends other than the posible ex BAretiree they are probably the usual suspects who have run out of companies to p1ss off. A motely crew of transient chaps who have done the rounds thru most of the companies mentioned below and still cant figure out why they cant hold down a job.

Is hiring transient moaners part of open skies busines plan?

[757 Speedbrakes]

It's not a cheap dig at anyone nor am I taking sides and I also happen to be a union member.

Those who I know who've gone to OS are extremely experienced and very good pilots.

My point is that OS would of employed someone no-matter what so don't take it out on those who have been employed.

[Visual Calls]

My point is that OS would of employed someone no-matter what so don't take it out on those who have been employed.

Or, alternatively, if everyone had respected the IFALPA ban, it would have made the cause of improving the conditions much easier.
Breaking a recruitment ban on the premise that someone else will if you won't still makes you a scab.

[Beerbelly]

Be very careful 757speedbrakes.
It makes no difference whether you're a union member or no, if you criticise, or imply criticism of BA the moderator is likely to remove your posts without warning.

Good point, well made - doubt it will last the day.

[757flyer]

quote hand solo : You mean all those guys who broke the IFALPA recruitment ban?

The what?? its not worth the paper its printed on! If you are not a union member you are very unlikely to have heard of it. It has no legal weight at all, bit like your strike action! :E

quote: Anway, I never ignore another airlines hosties.:E

thats probably because your own wont socialise with you down route! It is a well know fact that nigels are often abandoned by their cabin crew.....i wonder why? :E

[Hand Solo]

It has no legal weight at all, bit like your strike action!

If you are going to try to goad us 757flyer then at least try to keep up with facts. Even BA aren't disputing the legality of a strike action. If I were you I'd go back to thinking hard for a few weeks about trying to come up with a decent put down then pop back and amuse us once more. There's a good chap.

PS If you learn how to do proper quotes like I've just done it'll make your posts look so much better. That ought to keep you busy for a while.:ok:

[757flyer]

No need mr Hand Shandy, most of us couldnt give a flying about BA its pilots or your dispute. For years you have taken advantage or ignored the plight of other pilots groups (Dan Air etc) and quite frankly deserve everything thats coming to you. Its a damn cheek that you expect others to take action on your behalf and your threats about ignoring a worthless IFALPA ban are just that.....worthless.

As for the "but if we loose this your terms and conditions will suffer", absolute rubbish!

Now go and see if you can socialise with one of your own hosties, a much bigger challenge for you..........That ought to keep you busy for a while.:ok: or an impossible mission? :O

[Hand Solo]

Good to see the bitterness come flowing out 757flyer, I trust it is cathartic for you. Still struggling with the quotes thing I see.

[Gypsy]

Yet another thread degenerates into mud-slinging and anyone offering an alternative view is treated as a heretic.

The way I see it, BA are starting a subsidary serving new routes - no one is losing their job and no one is having a pay cut. Indeed some guys are getting a job that is presumeably better than the one their leaving otherwise they wouldn't be doing it so I see that as a good thing.

BA pilots are no better or worse than any others I've come across in my 30 years in aviation - met some great guys and some not so good both from BA and from elsewhere. One thing BA pilots don't ever seem to grasp is that aviation is bigger than BA; there are lots of others guys out there who want the best job they can get.

[Beerbelly]

Great post gypsy, well said!
757flyer likewise.

[Hand Solo]

Still smarting from BACX Beerbelly?

[Captain Correlli]

What an unpleasant patronising erk you really are Hand, may you live in interesting times!

[Hand Solo]

Blimey they're all coming out of the woodwork tonight, wonder how many more multiple identity BACX posters will be disclosed? May we all live in times when any thread related to BA can run it's course without a stream of ex-BACX employees coming out to vent their spleens. I fear I'll be an old, old man before that happens.

[jacjetlag]

It will become obvious very soon just whom will be in the majority at OS.
Low-time, under-qualified, those with violations , life time non-sched guys and otherwise undesirables willing to ignore and subvert the hiring ban. In a nut shell, people who lack character. No wonder Willie has sought you out, he is just like you.

Rationalize it any way you can that let's you live with the fact...you are a SCAB and will be remembered by your colleagues as such for all of your days.

[biddedout]

Well here's another one Hand.
Just wondering if your IFALPA recruitment ban applies to ex BACXers returning to their previous employment status? Working for a BA subsidiary company.

Does this attract full scab status, or is there a watered down version?:rolleyes:

[FlyingApe]

And to be a SCAB, do you technically have to be a member of a union...?;)

[jacjetlag]

No.
Thanks for asking.

[Gypsy]

Never been in BACX

The previous posts have shown some really nasty little minds

Going back a few years, 4 F/O's in the company I then worked for applied to BA - 2 were snotty rude gits and 2 very good well adjusted competant guys - guess which 2 got the jobs !

As I've already said, I also know some excellent ex BA guys.

Could the BA contributors just try and get away from the idea that they're better than everyone else because do you know what.................you're not different from the rest and the continued suggestion otherwise does nothing for your cause

Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?

So if someone wants / needs a job with OS, why shouldn't he take it - and as for the talk of scabs - pathetically reminiscent of the Ozzie dispute and what a great success that was (not).

For heavens sake grow up guys

[bluepilot]

even though I support the BA pilots and their plight against BA i really have a problem with this "scab" attitude. we are not living in the 1970s, give it a rest guys.

[ShortfinalFred]

Aha, yes, there it is: "The BA WAY", like a very special kind of weed or pest that can be identified by airline botanists the world over, "The BA WAY" has put in another appearance.

It works like this: BA take over Dan Air in the meanest, cruellest way imaginable. BACX likewise. A very great many pilots lives are ruined by BA MANAGEMENT. BA then create a Trojan Horse subsidiary designed to screw over the mainline BA pilot force some years after screwing over everyone else that came within range. Every single pilot who was screwed over in phase one, (Dans and BACX), now rubs their hands with glee and says "got you too now, you bastards, you deserve every inch of the bat your going to get".

Meanwhile the same BA MANAGEMENT that created the Dans and BACX situation in the first place laughs itself sick at the way they so deftly created Pilot Fatricide and sees us all for the suckers they have always taken us to be.

So, if "The BA WAY" is not to become a virulent pest that attacks pilot terms and conditions wherever they may be found, what then is the way to eradicate it? Answers on a postcard to Gardeners Question Time.

Alternatively, try seeing the much talked about "Big Picture" and see Open Lies for what it really is - an attempt to screw over every commercial pilot working in Europe by some very greedy, very cynical guys indeed.

That said, I suspect some of Open Lies most rabid supporters on pprune are not what they seem. Take them with a pinch of salt. Keep running the propaganda Robin - your betrayal of your own profession makes me sick, as does your Evangelical Cant

[jacjetlag]

"even though I support the BA pilots and their plight against BA i really have a problem with this "scab" attitude. we are not living in the 1970s, give it a rest guys."

===========================================

Please tell me how the 70's are different than now in regards to this issue?
The only difference is in the minds of those who no longer have the will to defend the profession, but will equivocate for convenience. God forbid we should call a scab a scab.

[jacjetlag]

"Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes.
On Apr. 15th of this year, BA pilots supported AA pilot's picket at Glaxo, and they continue to support us now.

[Walnut]

Two other interesting points I've heard from someone who is thinking of applying are that one would be required to sign up to a £18,000 bond over a 2 1/2yr period, & that all the cabin crew are to be New York based. It aso appears that although all applicants are welcome, those that are not currently type rated will be strung along with questionable promises.
They are also having trouble finding a training manager, I believe they are on their 5th round of selection interviews, people have said they will take the job and then on reflection withdraw.

[Gypsy]

In terms of sticking your neck out for someone else I was meaning something that causes you pain or loss.

Think of the Capt Johnny Blogs flying his Boeing Glass Cockpit for JOT6 airlines on 60 something K per annum, bugger all duty pay and no crew food and wondering if his outfit will last through the economic gloom and fuel price crisis - now he could get a better job with OS with much better T's and C's yet some of you guys expect him to pass up the opportunity in order to protect what you perceive to be a threat to your T's and C's whch are already miles ahead of his................!

Can you see why he is likely to go ahead anyway regardless of playground name calling.

As for BALPA who seem so opposed to OS, can any BALPA type tell me why OS is different to the EasyJet continental salaries and T's and C's which BALPA have agreed? EasyJet's continental bases aren't even a subsidary airline - one AOC and one airline yet different T's and C's and I hear BALPA have agreed the new conditions for pilots at those bases.

No one in BA is losing their job or having a pay cut as a result of OS.

[FlyingTom]

Yet.

One 757 is not going to have much effect. Try 24 787's.

[ltn and beyond]

"Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?"

That is exactly what BA pilots are doing now!!!, many pilots in BA have worked in other airlines and indeed other industries and are not, as some posters on here imply, BA nigels who think only of BA. Most BA pilots have worked hard to get where they are, and looking at the other posts on this forum many other pilots are also trying to get that job in BA to have all the benefits it brings.

It is widely recognized that most airline managers see BA terms and conditions as the upper limits to the expectation of their pilot workforce, therefore if the BA T&C's are eroded then there is no way other UK airlines will enhance their T&C's they will be eroded too.

So in answer to the above question in trying to protect their own T&C's constantly they are protecting others, and now more than ever with the "credit crunch" and their support for strike action.!!!

[Mike Mercury]

Gypsy, you write very good stuff.
It may be true that BA management have a bad press for their past and present actions and attitudes, yet if the BA pilots cannot (or maybe refuse to) see how they are perceived by your JOT6 airlines example (and for that, read also most UK Turbo-Prop outfits pilots) then they are doomed to fail; or at least, doomed to ever get any sympathy or support.

ShortfinalFred said:
It works like this: BA take over Dan Air in the meanest, cruellest way imaginable. BACX likewise. A very great many pilots lives are ruined by BA MANAGEMENT. BA then create a Trojan Horse subsidiary designed to screw over the mainline BA pilot force some years after screwing over everyone else that came within range. Every single pilot who was screwed over in phase one, (Dans and BACX), now rubs their hands with glee and says "got you too now, you bastards, you deserve every inch of the bat your going to get".
Yes. Absolutely. If there had been ANY support from BALPA at that time, of the same nature and volume currently being deployed against the OS concept, then I'm quite sure the vast majority of posts on here would be different.
Unfortunately, there was zilch support, because it didn't concern you, or your pockets. Your current argument for altruism reeks of hypocrisy.
Sorry, nothing personal, just history, and fact.

[Mike Mercury]

Apologies in advance for thread creep, but I think this is relevant. A bit of general browsing led me to the EZY to BA thread, where I read the following. I believe it says alot about the entire BA WAY as applied throughout that Company. Nothing personal chaps.:E (my italics)

Wingswinger said:
I'd like to echo what NSF has said. I am an ex-BA captain who had to leave under the old retirement age rule (six months too old to stay). I've been with EZY just over two years and I enjoy it. No whinging culture, no back-biting, no inter-department jealousies, just folks coming in to do their jobs in as friendly and as co-operative a manner as they can. The SOPs are less prescriptive, no part of manual flyng is discouraged or banned and there is plenty scope for concepts such as common sense, airmanship and initiative. I had more personal satisfaction in my first 17 months with EZY than I did in 17 years in BA. It helps, of course, that the company is still expanding and creating opportunities. In sum, I work harder than I did in BA, I'm paid less but I enjoy it more, and - this is the crucial bit - I am treated much more like a captain than I ever was in BA.

Sadly, I don't have a megapension like some of my erstwhile colleagues to whom NSF refers (only 17 years, you see, preceded by 17 years in the RAF) so I'm still full-time and will be for the foreseeable future.

I do miss the nightstops in 5-star city-centre hotels, though!

No mention of scabs either....

[joe two]

It is widely recognized that most airline managers see BA terms and conditions as the upper limits to the expectation of their pilot workforce, therefore if the BA T&C's are eroded then there is no way other UK airlines will enhance their T&C's they will be eroded too.



I very seriously doubt it.

[ltn and beyond]

Joe, I hope you are right and I'm wrong,this is a long term effect I'm looking at and not short term. As quoted by other international pilot unions, they wish they had stood up as a group to the "Trojan horses", introduced in the form of American eagle(USA) and Jetstar(aus).

As a pilot with quite a few years let in the industry i hope that any threat to our collective T&C's can be quashed before our managers implement them :uhoh:

[Charizard]

'ltn and beyond' - I hope that too.

However, as is frequently made clear by Hand Solo and/or Tandem Rotor, it is up to individual company councils or similar groups of pilots to put their own cases forcefully enough to prevent any such threat becoming fact within their own airline.
It's difficult to see in reality how any cross-industry grouping from more than one airline can legally (even supposing they wanted to, and BA have not demonstrated much history of that) take industrial action on behalf of different carriers.
However, the BACC line that any group of pilots, by electing and supporting a strong CC in pursuit of their own best interests, can maintain their own Ts and Cs where they wish...is actually broadly correct, and regardless of OS, Jetstar or anyone else will in theory always be effective.

In the meantime, it's difficult to see why any of us wanting to improve our own situation should not join OS if we so wish - otherwise we are putting the interests of others before those of ourselves and our families.
I leave it to the forum to decide - (assuming this post is allowed any longevity) - whether BA pilots have genuinely and collectively ever demonstrated such commitment to non-BA pilot groups.

[wobble2plank]

Ironically, away from the vitriolic mumbo jumbo postings that some erstwhile members of our supposedly 'professional' workforce choose to post, I too enjoy my daily work at BA.

Most of us have the ability to treat BA as a job just like any other. I don't feel any better than anyone else flying the skies but I do feel I have achieved a good balance in working lifestyle and my terms and conditions. Hence the reason for my coming to BA. Most line pilots will try and protect their terms and conditions as is natural in a cut throat industry where the bottom line is king and we are all under immense pressure from the spiraling price of oil.

I personally, and also the view of the vast majority of my colleagues, have no axe to grind with anyone who wishes to join OS. As has been stated before in these threads, in the occasional moment of clarity, there are many people who will be willing to accept these T&C's as there are not many alternatives at the moment. As a pilot workforce we should never be bitter towards anyone who wants to fly to support themselves and their families. It is snyd, pointless and degrading. The word 'Scab' is vulgar and wholly inappropriate.

I don't agree with attacking the workforce that an underhanded trick by scurrilous management have recruited. What I do object to is that the entire BA pilot workforce get tarred with this 'I'm holier than thou' brush when people choose to discuss these matters. The management, coupled with the accountants have bred this all. Certainly the take over of other airlines has caused pain and grief, that is never in doubt. The handling of these take overs was forced through by the BA management in yet another underhand manner. Possibly, at the time, more could have been done to accommodate the merger/acquisition in a people friendly manner but this is not, never has been nor ever will be the 'BA Managers Way'.

We live in a world where our industry is under constant attack from environmentalists, politics, terrorist, oil price etc. We need to achieve some stability in our terms and conditions before they too start to plummet down as yet another excel spreadsheet cost cutting measure. Only by standing up to the management, not bitching constantly between ourselves, can this be achieved across the entire profession not only BA.

I will watch and wait, should be a few interesting months.

:ooh:

[Hand Solo]

As for BALPA who seem so opposed to OS, can any BALPA type tell me why OS is different to the EasyJet continental salaries and T's and C's which BALPA have agreed? EasyJet's continental bases aren't even a subsidary airline - one AOC and one airline yet different T's and C's and I hear BALPA have agreed the new conditions for pilots at those bases.

You're not keeping up again Gypsy. BALPA are not opposed to Open Skies, and BALPA have stated they are willing to accept different T&Cs for Open Skies to Mainline in order to keep start up costs low. No different to Easyjet. BALPAs only demand is that all Open Skies pilots are on the BA master seniority list.

Think of the Capt Johnny Blogs flying his Boeing Glass Cockpit for JOT6 airlines on 60 something K per annum, bugger all duty pay and no crew food and wondering if his outfit will last through the economic gloom and fuel price crisis - now he could get a better job with OS with much better T's and C's yet some of you guys expect him to pass up the opportunity in order to protect what you perceive to be a threat to your T's and C's whch are already miles ahead of his

The logical extension to your argument is if mainline go on strike and BA sets up Strikebreaker Airlines then Capt Blogs should have no qualms about joining them as it's a much better offer than he's currently got. What happens when someone comes along who'll do it cheaper than Blogs? There's always someone who'll do it cheaper.

[Deep and fast]

When will the moderator start deleting threads with "scab" etc. I find it all a bit OTT. :rolleyes: People have a choice in life and so it should always be. If your family need feeding and open skies is a step up the ladder can you blame anyone for that. The militant posters here may say that OS will affect their income, but when you earn BA money you forget what it is like earning much much less.

Peace dudes D and F:8

[Charizard]

Wobble - As a pilot workforce we should never be bitter towards anyone who wants to fly to support themselves and their families. It is snyd, pointless and degrading. The word 'Scab' is vulgar and wholly inappropriate.

Please may I applaud your opinion.

Deep & Fast - When will the moderator start deleting threads with "scab" etc. I find it all a bit OTT. People have a choice in life and so it should always be.

Hear hear.

In parenthesis, I think it most unlikely that the application or not of a small number of candidates for this airline will have any effect at all on the tactical and strategic outcome. What's next? Boycotting Eastern Europe as the JAR Licenced and 757 rated applicants come from that region. And those boys would see OS as a HUGE self betterment. Do we re-erect a curtain across Europe?
Negotiation, not union bully boy intimidation is the answer. BALPA are being every bit as specious as BA management.

[wee one]

If Capt Jonny bloggs finds OS t and c better than his current outfit then he is either a cessna 150 driver or from the east, or as has been noted desperate.

[thedick]

Could someone send the t/c and pay to find out if it worth of applying,also link to apply:)

[CEJM]

If Capt Jonny bloggs finds OS t and c better than his current outfit then he is either a cessna 150 driver or from the east, or as has been noted desperate.

Before making such a statement, have a read through this topic:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434

Loads of guys earing less and having worse T's and C's then OS.

Must be quite nice living in total ignorance to the rest of the world.:{

[wee one]

CEJM,
Having read the open shorts contract cover to cover and been astounded how much people are willing to prostitute themselves and the industry I would suggest that I am less ignorant on the matter than you may have assumed.
I am not surprised by the type of people I know to have joined.
My integrety is intact. I didnt join. It wont last with the type of management, the type of servitude , i mean contract , and the type of people that have joined. Both parties will live to regret it.;).
They dont need to be called scabs. Anal prostiutes would be more appropiate

[CEJM]

Wee One,

You might be right. But your earlier statement seems a bit unfair on our Eastern European colleague who is on 1400 euros a month. Imagine yourself in their position and you might have done exactly the same.

Different people will make different choices based on their requirements. I do understand what you are saying and personally I wouldn't join either. But if you have the choice to join OS or be without a job in the near future then a lot of people will choose OS. And hopefully I will never be put in that situation but I might choose OS also over being without a job.

Very difficult to judge the people who have joined and what their reasons are.

But I must add, that unlike you, I don't know anybody who has joined OS.

[jacjetlag]

"Different people will make different choices based on their requirements. I do understand what you are saying and personally I wouldn't join either. But if you have the choice to join OS or be without a job in the near future then a lot of people will choose OS. And hopefully I will never be put in that situation but I might choose OS also over being without a job.
udging ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It not as if we are judging their mortal souls ,only their choices. And it is a bad choice indeed. There are lots of jobs available today that do not involve compromising one's integrity and life-long reputation. It's just not worth it.

[joe two]

I think we shouldn't be surprised to know that there are quite a few 757/767 captains and F/O's who are really interested in Openskies.

You can't blaim them really, they have their families and/or themselves to take care for and the future for them at Flyglobespan, XL ,Jet2 ,Thomson and all those mainland charters operating on 757/767 like Arkefly and Jetairfly is starting to look a bit grim beyond 2008.
Compared to those operators , terms and conditions don't differ a lot and one could imagine there might even be more job security at Openskies.

There is some smoke screen of putting openskies pilots on the BA seniority list but what we are really talking about is the fact that we are talking about putting BA pilots on the openskies planes and nothing less or more.
And that means a stop on direct entry captains does it not ?

I guess there will be quite a few BA F/O's happy with that.
But will that really happen or is it wishfull thinking ?
Normally a new start up requires direct entry captains don't they ?

and to mention other UK airlines T&C's will erode because BA's T&C's are eroding (which they are not by the way, they'll mean openskies T&C's don't they) goes a bit far doesn't it ?
I very seriously doubt that ThomsonFly T&C's will be eroded by the openskies start up. Same goes for all the other operators.

[wobble2plank]

Joe Two,

You are, indeed, correct. There are DEC positions within OS. Infact the recruitment has been open to a limited number of BA line pilots who wish to be 'seconded' to OS for a minimum of 4 years on OS T's & C's.

As far as joining OS as a DEC from an FO's position in mainline, it's a non starter. BA have already stated that a command course within OS will not be accepted when the secondee comes back to mainline and they will have to wait and re-do the command course as appropriate. Somewhat questionable to me as the command qualifications/course should, surely, be adequate for OS and Mainline unless the management are accepting below par training for their new fledgling?

Even if the common seniority list were to be accepted, any DEC positions who wish to transfer to the mainline from OS would lose their commands as they take up their natural seniority position within the company. AFAIK there will be no grandfather rights.

It's all in the melting pot at the moment but, oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be a queue at the door to OS from Mainline. :\

As to the T's & C's, BA is still billed as an 'aspirational' carrier. Which means that they, at the moment, have no lack of applicants wishing to join. If the T's & C's at any major carrier be it BA or Virgin are slashed then there is no incentive to move carrier. The management will know this and therefore reduce any incentives they may have to entice people to remain with their company. As the top starts to slip the degradation WILL roll downhill. Why would any current management maintain any half decent T's & C's when they know that the pilot workforce has nowhere else to go?

[FlyingTom]

Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?

April the 15th was when BALPA showed support for others. Only it was just BA members that bothered to show up. If my memory serves correctly (it does) the only other support was from Air Lingus.

I very seriously doubt that ThomsonFly T&C's will be eroded by the openskies start up. Same goes for all the other operators.

Sorry but that shows a lack of appreciation of recent history. ThomsonFly was a pre-runner of the OS model, Britannia tried to undercut it's main line by introducing TFly on lower T&C's. BALPA, which is very strong in TFly, stood up to the company and got T&C's back to parity. All those that joined TFly benefitted from the focus of the Britannia company council.

I wish all those joining OS as an FO the best of luck, everyone needs a break in this industry. I can't condone any DEC's, you are all big enough to know what the issues are.

[wee one]

Joe two.
You are right about an ever shrinking 7576 pool of jobs,however you need to compare apples with apples etc. OS is a ryr style shafting nothing more nothing less. Makes jet2 look like ahippy commune.

[Pilot Pete]

Compared to those operators , terms and conditions don't differ a lot Joe two, you have little or no understanding of terms and conditions in Thomsonfly if you are comparing them with OS, Jet2, Flyglobespan and Excel.

PP

[kotakota]

Does anybody on this thread / website who freely uses the word SCAB actually know what it means ?
The Oxford Dictionary states that a SCAB is a BLACKLEG ( in regard to trade-Unionism ) and that a BLACKLEG is ' a workman who works for an employer whose men are on strike'.
In aviation ( eg the Australian 'dispute' in 1989 ) it means a pilot who basically defies his own colleagues / union and crosses the picket line and returns to work .
I fail to see how prospective pilots for OS , who are obviously not part of any union as yet , can be labelled as SCABS .
Get your facts staright please.

ps I have no interest in the outcome of this 'dispute' , but I dislike the use of derogatory terms in our ' gentlemens ' profession by Neanderthals.

[jacjetlag]

Kota....
The BA pilots are in court so they can strike on this issue if need be. That fulfills all requirements to use the word SCAB. How funny that you types get all squeemish over the use of the word SCAB itself, yet look the other way over the act of SCABBING.

All of this political correctness and equivocation is serving to appease WW and let him get away with it. For heaven's sake ,grow a pair and call it what it is.

[bluepilot]

All of this political correctness and equivocation is serving to appease WW and let him get away with it. For heaven's sake ,grow a pair and call it what it is.

If this is the attitude of a typical BA pilot I am glad I am not part of it.

quote Kotakota I dislike the use of derogatory terms in our ' gentlemens ' profession by Neanderthals.

I agree 100 %

[3Greens]

How you can call this a gentlemans profession when we are debating pilots choosing to ignore IALPA recruitment bans is beyond me.

And for all those that have chosen to join Openskies...you have NO bloody idea what the current management ethos is in British Airways because they will drain every last drop of morale from your soul. I have seen the contract; are some of you blind? the terms and conditions are appalling.

- No seniority, so any upgrades will be to the biggest brownnoser/ Robin glovers golf pals.
- company can cancel your leave at any time - awesome, that'll be interesting to tell the wife and kids!
- company can vary ANY aspect of your duty from time to time - i can see British Airways taking FULL advantage of that.

I wouldn't like to make that commanders discretion extension on a snowy January night in NYC after my third 2 man B2B in a month.
For comparison i have just got back from a 2 man JFK B2B...still knackered 2 days later and the weather etc on the East coast was benign so it was as easy as atlantic crossings ever get. The thought of doing it 3 times + a month fills me with dread.

CAn someone who is employed with Openskies please give us a breakdown of previous employment because i would be interested who exactly has worse conditions in the Western world.

[Min Drag]

The word "scab" is being used out of frustration!! It's a pathetic, dismal attempt to intimidate and stop people joining Openskies and it won't work:=

Those who consider the T's & C's at Openskies to be below par may well be right when compared to their own, but the (sad) fact is that there are a lot worse out there.

If Openskies offers you an improved quality of life then go for it. Don't worry about a couple of donkeys trying to bully you here on Pprune.

The attitude of the majority in BA mainline can be found on this thread thro' the words of "wobble2plank".

MD:ok:

[Dave Bloke]

Whether the people applying to Open Lies are to be referred to as "scabs" is not especially relevant. The fact is that they are in contravention of the IFALPA recruitment ban which means that if they ever need the support of a union (and BA have already said they will recognise BALPA as now), they will find themselves on their own.

As someone who currently works for BA, that is not a position I'd feel particularly safe in considering some of the individuals who are running the show. Don't ever, ever, ever put the slightest foot wrong and you'll be absolutely fine. If you screw up, God help you because it's unlikely anyone else will.

[Husky One]

Pity the IFALPA ban was only launched well after recruiting had begun (as usual). A retrospective ban on recruitment seems more than a little daft.

[3Greens]

i think that was because the BALPA ballot had to be issued, voted on, then action could start once the union had a mandate.
IMO it would have been stupid to issue a IFALPA ban BEFORE the ballot result was known just in case. :ugh:

[joe two]

Joe two, you have little or no understanding of terms and conditions in Thomsonfly if you are comparing them with OS, Jet2, Flyglobespan and Excel.


True.
From all those companies Thomsonfly is the only one who is forced to have redundancies.
Redundancies will be on a voluntary basis.

Makes a possible move to OpenSkies even more likely doesn't it ?

[biddedout]

Dave,

If BA say that they are to recognise BALPA in Open skies, then I assume it will have a Company Council just like the BACC and an appointed full time official. Their job will be to provide help and support for anyone who has a problem with their employer. I really don't understand what this so called ban has to do with the level of support that BALPA will provide. If, as you suggest, there will be no support provided, then why would BALPA seek recognition in OS?

If I were to apply to OS (which I am not) i would expect the same level of support to be provided by BALPA as i enjoyed last time I was a BA subsidiary employee and I am sure I would get it.

Just supposing three or four competent and preferably battle hardened reps were to emerge within OS. If they were to work with a top rate BALPA negotiator (there are one or two) and if OS had a high quality well trained management team in place, who truly undestood the concept of working together for the benefit of all, it could be possible to adapt these terms and conditions to create a good quality package which was well matched to the type of operation along with the pilots aspirations and with little or no exta cost to the company.

I know that given the right team BALPA could do it, but this would of course mean having a management team which didn't link competence to golfing ability and funny handshakes. An incentive scheme not driven by short term bonuses would also help.

Back to the drawing board then. :ugh:

[watertheflowers]

There's a largish airline in the Middle East that started a DEC program around 4 years ago. Previously upgrades were made internally on seniority.

Happily all the BA retirees boycotted said airline.

Hang on! No they didn't!

Since then several hundred F/Os at that airline have been disadvantaged in perpetuity by the arrival of no small number of ex BA DECs (and others).

Open Skies? Bring it on.

Not that I'll be applying though.

[3Greens]

jesus christ Watertheflowers,

YOu have managed to miss the point completely haven't you.

I assume you are referring to Emirates...if so then as there isn't a union in EK then there couldn't have been a recruitment ban eh? :ugh::mad:
Instead of whinging on here about displaced Fo's how about you chanel your energy into getting union recognition at EK. then and only then can you use collective bargaining to negotiate with your employer. Otherwise i'm afraid they will do as they like...:ugh:

BALPA aren't objecting to openskies, nor the pay, nor external pilot recruitment. What we want is PROTECTION so that if Openskies is the great success we ALL hope it is, we don't end up with a jetstar/Qantas situation.

I suggest before posting such accusations in future you at least get the facts right as it just makes you look a bit daft otherwise....

And what the hell have BA retirees got to do with anything...once they have left BA then they are free to take up a position of their choosing. As i have said above, i believe no recruitment ban was in place or i'm sure many would not have applied.

And one last thing...i see you object to command upgrades on a non-seniority basis; tell me what system they are using at openskies again?

[Dave Bloke]

biddedout,

If BA say that they are to recognise BALPA in Open skies, then I assume it will have a Company Council just like the BACC and an appointed full time official. Their job will be to provide help and support for anyone who has a problem with their employer.

Nearly.

If BA say that they are to recognise BALPA in Open skies, then I assume it will have a Company Council just like the BACC and an appointed full time official. Their job will be to provide help and support for any member who has a problem with their employer.

I may be wrong but I can't imagine there'll be too many members applying to Open Lies until the dispute has been sorted out one way or the other. Like I said, anyone who isn't a member should watch their back if they screw up.

As to the rest of your post, I agree with the sentiment. IMHO, the likelihood of there being a few "battle-hardened" reps at Open Lies is similar to the likelihood of Open Lies getting competent management. :rolleyes:

As you say, a decent set of reps could potentially improve the T&Cs at Open Lies over time, which may start to make it an attractive proposition to more pilots. However, if they do this without being on the master seniority list, it risks driving down the T&Cs at mainline, which brings us back to the Qantas/Jetstar scenario which is exactly what we're trying to avoid.

Dave B

[watertheflowers]

In simple terms, 3Greens, you and your group are attempting by the best means available to you, to avoid the importation of the commercial practices that we in the Middle East and other parts of the world experience.

The problems we have in the Middle East are in a small part caused by people of your type exporting themselves to our area.

Maybe I should say 'best of luck', but it sticks in my throat a bit.

[Gypsy]

Well I'm afraid guy's I'm not convinced.

Coming back to a question I posed a couple of days ago - why is OS any different to GO?

Ans: -

1, GO provided a nice little job for retiring 55 years olds

2, GO didn't fly and n'stop anywhere nice like NY

Rather than a great moral crusade to defend the T's and C's of our industry this IMO is all motivated by self interest of a blinkered group of pilots who already have good jobs and want to ensure that they maintain themselves ahead of others.

As for talk about 'scabs' etc I thought I'd left all that behind in the playground 30 plus ago.

If BAPLA and BA pilots really want to improve T's and C's industry wide then a good start would be RYR, Jet 2, Globespan and others flying around with below par pay, meaningless pensions and nothing to eat - compare that with your 2 man b2b JFK - God give me strength

[3Greens]

Gypsy

For a start BA & BALPA would be pretty hard pressed to improve ts and Cs in companies that don't have union recognition.

As for GO i concede that at the time BALPA was rotten from the core with too many feathering their own nests to give a damn about line pilots. Outsourcing was new in BA at the time and too many "i'm alright Jack" pilots wouldn't have given the union a mandate to do anything. I believe these times have changed and the current BA company council are excellent and i have more faith in them than i've ever had in BALPA.

As for giving you strength, i'm afraid i can't do that; all i can say is that comapring multi-sector days for RYR and 2 man B2B's is comparing apples and oranges. I have done both (and still do on the 757/767) and both leave you tired abeit in a differant way. I personally find that SH just requires 1 good night kip to recover whereas a 2 man East coast requires a few days, more if it's a B2B. This is more akin to fatigue than tiredness.

And as for NY being a "nice " nightstop - it is excellent - that is if you are staying in Manhattan. Where is Openskies putting its crew up again? the BA owned hotel is full of mainline crew everynight so my guess is you will be staying in New Jersey or out on Long Island. Trust me on this, if you aren't in Manhattan then NY is a 5h1te nightstop. Oh, and as your cabin crew are NY based they won't be with you either so it's candlelit meals for 2.

[potkettleblack]

For many people starting out in the industry the likes of BA/Virgin et al, otherwise known as legacy airlines provided the opportunity of flying for a reputable, stable airline and the chance to fly some heavy metal. Go around any flying school and the majority of people will ogle at the big jets and hope one day to be at the controls. The chance of one day being at big airways would help people get over all those low paid long houred days in rusty old buckets held together with gaffer tape.

Open Skies and what it represents has the potential to completely ruin this industry once and for all. The chance to finally earn a decent living doing a job we all love will be gone. We didn't fork out a fortune and forgo time with our families to end up getting paid a pittance.

If you want to see where this could be heading just look to Asia and the ME. Cathay was once a great airline to work at. A scalers were the best paid in the world. Then they moved to the B scale. Still okay but not so good. Then C and its getting worse each year. Then there were DEC's hired and shafting of guys on seniority lists. The freighter fleet brought even more heart ache. Emirates were no better. All Willy is doing is copying the business model and I hope that BALPA can put an end to it for the sake of all of us.

[Hand Solo]

The problems we have in the Middle East are in a small part caused by people of your type exporting themselves to our area

As 3greens isn't a retiree it's hard to blame his type for your troubles. The question remains, what did you do to fight this imposition by your management? If the answer is sweet FA then it would be pretty feeble to wish hardship on others who have the balls and the organisation to resist the kind of management shafting you didn't. Sadly for some people 'sharing the misery' is a mantra.

why is OS any different to GO?

GO was a small, low cost airline aimed at attracting budget travellers at a time that BA was actively distancing itself from that segment of the market and downsizing aircraft from B757s to A319s in order to minimize low yield seats on board the aircraft. GOs business plan was complementary to mainlines in that at the outset it exclusively targeted a market segment mainline did not want. When GO started to target premium travellers it was no longer considered a complementary business to mainline and was sold. Open Skies is exclusively targetting premium transatlantic business travellers, the core market of BA mainline, from the outset. That's the difference.

[Mick Stability]

I can't excuse the behaviour of BALPA during GO, CityFlier etc, but what I can say is that Chris Darke, the general secretary at the time, was summarily dumped, and replaced by Jim McAuslan, a man in a different galaxy when it comes to comparisons. The stalking horse candidate was a BA Captain who put his money where his mouth was when the demand for change became a clamour.

Secondly, the Chairman of the BACC at the time left BALPA to take up a management post - in charge of baggage as it happens. What followed was a rout, with a new BACC of a completely different agenda.

If BALPA could have been accused of a prochial view in the past, the current BACC has a far broader horizon, and a MUCH more commercially aware constituent. I suggest that if we had this BACC then, things would have turned out very differently indeed.

[Gypsy]

HS - GO was a small airline ????? I think they got up to 17 or more a/c - OS has one and is planning I think 6 by end 2009. I don't think I can see your point.

As much as BA pilots would like to think that any European capital to the USA in Premium class is their market, I'm afraid it isn't - thats the whole point about open skies agreements - competition.

3 Greens - I've also done longhaul 2 and 3 man crew both east and west, plus SH and Charter -they can all be tiring but there is a body of chaps who still see the chance to get off in another country with some beer vouchers as the best choice - my point is I don't think they'd be this fuss if OS was a SH operator. My feeling is that a lot of the noisest complainants would look down their noses and be happy to see such a SH version of OS recruit others on less pay and lower T's and C's. I take your point about NY n/stops if your assumptions about OS Hotac are correct - truth of the matter is that the n/stop isn't designed to give us a great little social life - nice when it happens but it doesn't feature high on the agenda in the office

[Saint Peter]

So tell me HS, more about these:
others who have the balls and the organisation to resist the kind of management shafting

Would that be the great BALPA cop-out?
Got it wrong again eh?
What an absolute waste of everyone's time - a period of silence from you would now be most appreciated!