RNav and VFR

[frothy]

I don't want to start a bun fight but there is a bit of a situation awareness issue regarding IFR approaches and transitting or circuit VFR traffic.
This morning at GLA I had a dialogue with a Dash 300 who was doing an Rnav onto rwy 10. He was calling waypoints which is fine because I know where they are, but over about the last 12 months numerous VFR pilots have mentioned they didn't know where the wapoints were. Simple solution is to ask, but if the broadcast was to include bearing and distance to run it would allow situational awareness for the VFR people to adjust to fit in with the RPT blokes and blokettes. Here we all fit in pretty well and everyone seems to try and let RPT in first if they can. If the Dash bloke reads this, I hope you don't think I was trying to be a smarta*se, but it was to demonstrate the point that these VFR Pilots haven't got a plate sitting in front of them. You seemed to take it on board when I mentioned why the inquiry was made. That was me that gave you a wave from the Hanger as you taxied out:ok:
I'm sure this is not isolated to this CTAF(R). I had this radio conversation this morning as we were the only two on frequency, hope it was taken as it was given.

good onya

Frothy
Co operation is the name of the game making things that little bit safer

[Capt Wally]

'Frothy' it is indeed a good post you have started here. I come across this exact situation a lot & always give the details of the RNAV app that I may be conducting in chart format & plain language just for the reasons you state.
Rather than state VH-XXX at XXXNG I would say Vh-XXX at XXXNG 10 miles to the east on the RWY 26 GPS/RNAV Approach. I rarely say RNAV stand alone because there would be some VRF drivers out there that are not too famil with what goes on with RNAV appr's but will almost certaintly know the term GPS, how it's done is irrelevant to them.

I think you will find that anyone using an airport (CTAF-R or not) on a reg basis under the VFR best get famil with that airports rwy approaches even for no other reason than to gain some insight as to which direction these GPS/RNAV guys might be coming from.

I'm not too sure what the basic VRF training syllabus is these days for learning about such things as RNAV appr's (not the actual app but how there executed by the IFR guys) & there use to be expected in & around a lot of country airfields these days. Might be a good idea to teach some basics of it at an early stage if not already done

Anyway good point in question 'frothy':ok:


CW:)

[bushy]

Our authorities have tried for decades to pretend that VFR aircraft do not exist. IFR reporting points are often not shown on any maps that a vfr pilot would have. They seem to be secrets unless you are ifr rated and have the ifr charts. At one time we even had vfr aircraft reporting at a location that is marked on the wac chart, and ifr aircraft reporting at a place with the same name that was about 15 miles away. Looks like there is a communication problem at ASA.
Surely it would be simple to put the ifr points on the vfr charts as well. The fictitous names in use today do not appear on ANY other charts.
Sure, you can search through publications and may find the co-ordinates of these things after much searching, but no-one does. The system does not work. And they do not seem to care.

[WynSock]

Glad someone mentioned this.

It is yet another example of how an RNAVs distance reference to both the FAF and the Mapt is a horses arse. Situational awareness is poor for both the approach crew and any VFR pilots in the general approach area.



Old GNSS NPA thread here... (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246854)

[airman1]

frothy,

Very good post ....... This is a regular occurrence at an airport in country NSW that I fly into a couple of times a week. I have noticed that it is starting to catch on with more & more crews that fly for this particular airline. On more than one occasion I have heard VFR pilots calling inbound & asking the current position of the RPT A/C...... the pilot always replies with IFR jargon that no VFR pilot would have any clue about. I once confronted a crew on the ground and ask why they persist on calling waypoints instead of giving distance and bearings ..... The answer I got was less than polite!!! "Mate how about you get back in your bug smasher and worry about your own flying" :sad:

It's all about keeping the sky safe ………we were all once VFR pilots and should try and accommodate all our fellow airman.:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

It's pretty simple, I always call on a ten mile final and then on a five mile final, most RNAV's in this country are runway aligned!:ok:

[gimpgimp]

Good topic!
A current sim ex at KGI has given many an opportunity to point out to our Qf crews that they must use “simple’ position calls that a vfr pilot will “get”.
Spread the word .

[DUXNUTZ]

Call me odd but i thought this would be common sense? Maybe common sense isn't all that common?

[Jabawocky]

Have found the VB guys I have flown around to be quite good at plain english. I am VFR (not much longer tho) and I made it my business to know what they were doing, but most do not.

Good idea for both RPT and lighties to understand a bit of both. Aat least the RPT guys have the experience at both!

J:ok:

[Captahab]

There is nothing in any publication I have seen that refers to reporting at waypoints in a CTAF, all reports for traffic advice should be at distances (and bearing/quadrant) and not at obscure waypoints from an approach chart.

Is it just me or has the overall standard of radio procedures dropped off.
Basic stuff such as departure reports in CTA and taxi calls OCTA.

Maybe its just the new right hand seat "where does it say that" brigade that are passing through regionals. :ugh:

Ahab :=

[Capt Wally]

'ahab' R/T procedures are deteriorating fast, & it's not just the country bumkins either !

'HH' yr calls are something that most do when aligned with the rwy hopefully but not IAP's are aligned, this is where it can be confusing for a VFR driver who flies by a WAC only. I like the RNAV's but they are a poor situational awareness App for both the IFR guy doing it & VFR guy trying to figure out where the hell XXXNG (for Eg.) is essepcially with the lousy 'King' gear we use.

hey 'jaba' ya not going IFR with yr bro the Dr in a SE are ya?:{ Oh no plz not another one! Thread hijack, where's a nasty Mod when ya need one:E


CW

[frothy]

Thanks People for all the positive replies, it's obvious by your replies this is a wide spread problem.
By discussing it here no doubt it will be bought up in the Crew Rooms and by this, situational awareness can only improve for all concerned.
Here, if everyone knows where RPT is they can extend or orbit to faciltate a straight in for the Dashes either North or South bound
To add to confusion here, rwy 28 is rh circuit so some transitting drivers sometimes pull a lh circuit so awareness is important in my book.
Position , altitude and intention then everyone knows, and works in all locations.

goodonya

Frothy:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I got chewed out by my favourite ATO on my last renewal for giving GPS/RNAW waypoints in my CTAF calls.

His words were something along the lines of, "the average VFR would have a fecking clue where 'Waypoint Wiskey Charlie' is"!

So I now tune GPS #2 (Forkair Ops Manual dictates a minimum of 2 for IFR ops) onto the aerodrome reference point and say something like, "WWW is XX miles northwest (or whatever is appropriate), passing YYYY on descent, inbound in the Rwy ZZ GPSRNAV Approach".

That seems to keep everybody happy!

Dr :8

[Capt Wally]

hey 'forky' 'twas wonderin' when ya would pop up:) Yr ATO was pretty much right & yr future calls as stated should be much better. Am surprised you don't have a third GPS to know how far ya from home at all times!:ok:

It's all about communication this game we are in, just that to some it's either over the top or simply not enough!


CW

[airman1]

During My initial issue 2 years ago I also called waypoints in my CTAF calls the ATO reckons he was extremely close to failing me. I was taught this way and honestly thought is was the norm!! Now being in the industry for a couple of years I know how confusing it can be for the VFR guys. I think the problem originates in training, with instructors own bad habits rubbing off on the students.:=

This is just my opinion of course maybe there are a few pilots who are just getting lazy. I was taught very early in my training that you can tell a professional pilot by the way he conducts his radio calls !!:ok:

What are people’s thoughts is this problem originating from training or are pilots becoming lazy???

[MACH082]

Its very simple, us Pilots, like to sound like the sky gods we are, the radio being the ultimate place to broadcast to our peers at what mighty pah-lots we really are. A VFR pilot calls ABS 15 miles east inbound etc. He then gets an instrument and starts adding flash words in like DME and radial to let everyone now of the MECIR now stuck in the prized logbook. Trends start to appear in locations with new jazzy ways of letting everyone now what a brilliant operator you are and it spreads like cancer across the country.

A wise man once told me KISS................ im sure you all know what it stands for :)

Required calls are in Jeps and Aip. Use 'em :)

[Chop Air]

remember that next time you depart on an 'omni' mach082:}

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I like the RNAV's but they are a poor situational awareness App for both the IFR guy doing it & VFR guy trying to figure out where the hell XXXNG (for Eg.) is essepcially with the lousy 'King' gear we use

Not so Wally if you have a pretty moving map to keep an eye on. You'll be "aware" of your situation all the way.

Time to upgrade ya equipment Wal - at least to the same standard I have in the Bo!

I hear the new PC12's have some nice glass in them.

Dr :8

[frothy]

Usually I s'ppose the Kingairs and PC12's going into the places they do don't have to worry too much about other traffic, too worried about the fence at the other end or the lack of lights or the beast in your way, and the list goes on:)
Also happy 80th to all the boys and girls(sorry about the drift):ok::ok::ok:

Frothy

[Capt Wally]

:)now now Dr moving maps are for those that have a street directory at hand & it's a bumpy day:E
Yes I also hear that the PC12 has some nice glass in it, I believe the windscreens are rated at far more than what the pilot could take impact wise, that's what you meant right Dr?:E

Thanks for yr kind words 'frothy' but I think you will find that not only do the flying quacks go out to places where there is little in the way of other traffic we/they also fly into high usage places doing RNAV App's such as YSHT & YBLT in Vic where on a sunday for Eg. it's unorganized VFR chaos & is only going to get worse at the latter!:bored: Yr correct about the beasts tho, you would think that a Roo ought to have an ASIC that way they should have been trained which way to jump when a big KFC is about to convert them into worm food !

CW

[frothy]

CW
Yea I realise the busy areas as well are covered by RFDS, it wouldn't be unusual to see the Kingies in here a few times a day as we have no medical specialists here so there's a lot of GLA-BN transfers.
Everyone naturally fits in with them, as one day it might be you taking the trip.
With the accuracy of a/c, both IFR and VFR tracking with GPS now situational awareness is paramount. Years ago (my training days) remember the pencil marks breaking up your legs, if you saw your point off to one side of your position that was good enough, but now GPS puts you right over the point, possibly the same time as someone else, this applies to destinations as well.
Hea FTDK how many times did you lose your chart into the slipstream:}

Frothy

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

FTDK how many times did you lose your chart into the slipstream

?? Sorry Frothy, y've lost me!

Dr :8

[frothy]

Before GPS's we had paper maps in open cockpits, you might be younger than me. Most people are:ok::ok:

Frothy

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

you might be younger than me

Probably - I am only a young fella really - although I have held a pilot's licence for 30+ yrs.

No, I have never had a map blow out of an open cockpit! I think the only open cockpit I have flown is the Tiger - and that was only local flying for which I didn't need a map.

Dr :8

PS: No, hang on a minute - I have flown the other Tiger (ie Grumman) with the canopy slid back!

[Jabawocky]

If the Operating System (MS Windoze) locks up.....well thats about the same thing :}

J:E

[frothy]

Another classic example this morning. In the hanger having a quiet cup of cooffee reading the local rag (quiet time) A Beech calls inbound just tracking to whisky bravo for Rnav on 10 then all of sudden turns up downwind for right base 28. This gives you a nose on nose. The wind was favouring 10. Heard it all on the hanger base VHF. Is distance height and bearing so hard?
Weather and vis was fine and beaut, as it always is up here.
I don't know whether they think everyone will think they are more professional by calling waypoints, situational awareness should be paramount:ugh:

Frothy

[Capt Fathom]

A Beech calls inbound just tracking to whisky bravo for Rnav on 10 then all of sudden turns up downwind for right base 28

Did it have a Forked Tail ? :E

[frothy]

Nay, straight tail FTDK's got more sense than that(leave the money on the fridge forky).Hope this doesn't sound like a one man campaign, but I can see a close conflict or worse, I hope I'm wrong, I've seen too many in broken aeroplanes and lost too many friends. Spending time in TPNG will do that, won't it?

Frothy

[Jabawocky]

Won't have been forkie......he is missing his tail feathers, and will need the money on the fridge to pay for the repaint!:eek:

J:ok:

[frothy]

A few of us sitting in the Hanger this morning for coffee and a "swear session" at the weather when an aircraft called 25nm NW 5000' inbound,and circuit time tracking for Rnav for rwy 10, then 5 mile final ect. Time of call 2315UTC.
Bloody good operator, everyone has situational awareness:ok:
This bloke demonstrated the very thing we were talking about. It can't be that hard can it ? Well done that Pilot:ok::ok::ok::ok:
By the way Capt. Wally it was a B200 with Foxtrot Delta rego.

Frothy

[Capt Wally]

Well good to see that somebody is doing it right out there frothy. Not sure the rego as I am not aware of them up in banana bending country:)
WX been a bit ordinary has it? Ah how sad, at least you can always get a few hrs of 'hangar flying' in:ok:
I like to say.......tracking via the BDGNC waypoint for Rwy 17 for Eg.. position 15 mls nth then at 5 miles or as required due traffic.
It's a simple matter of airmanship, something not being taught too much these days:bored:

CW

[frothy]

Yea we've got a pretty good Low sitting off us, had winds to 40kts gusting and backing and veering, so I'm leaving my Tailwheel in the Shed. It's hanger door ratlin' weather:)
We've got Bravo and Romeo up round here, always busy doing a bloody good job

Frothy