drug & booze testing

[Capt Wally]

Just recieved the pamphlet in the mail today re 'drug & achohol' testing. it's going to start at random on any airport about mid this year & not just pilots either.
I personally don't have a problem with it but I do notice that the people who are doing the testing are an outside group contracted CASA to perform these tests. Fair enough I hardly think CASA have the expertise to do the testing but the only thing that concerns me is that will the testing be done in a professional manor & handled accordingly if proved positive for reasons that are perhaps beyond the control of the tested person. (medication of Eg) Obvioulsy I am not aware of all the details but assuming the testing personal have had experience with road users & now they have access to airside where the world can be different, will we see a different sort of result than from out on the Rd?

Comments anybody?....professional comments of course


CW

[Skystar320]

Everyone know's drug's are illegal & alcholo in quanties can effect the way we mentally think.....

Common sense you dont rock up to work drunk.

Common sense you dont take drugs and be under the influence.

You get caught, you pay the time......... your own stupid fault

[littlehurcules]

Common sense you dont take drugs and be under the influence.
Well - that is fantastic to know that you have never been sick and never taken anything for your headache or when you have been dropped your 'handbag' on your toe whilst in your high heels:ok:

So what will happen to you when you take some over the counter medication or something you purchase from your local supermarket - that contains a very small amount of codine for your dull headache that just occoured on the way to your work - as you going to still go to work or are you going to call in sick?:oh:

There are thousands of people that would take something for a dull headache or 'other pain' that is not going to affect the way they work - but this might show up when your tested

Looks like the only way around this is to go and talk to your DAME and get them to prescribe you something for your dull aches and pains - and then you will have to carry another piece of paper in your nav bag to show to CASA when tested:mad:

What if you say no to a test - will the testing people be able to stop you from flying - how will they stop you ? Are they going to lock the door on your plane ??:confused:

Just throwing it out there - i think there are probably alot of questions that people are going to ask about this and if there is some constructive answers out there from people that actually know the answers - please post them on here.

I think the testing is a great thing - just like it is being introduced on the roads more and more (drug testing). Maybe more people will be sensible about what they do the night before work.:=

[Capt Wally]

yeah well '320' we are talking about humans here, not machines.
Remember the same humans who get caught time after time for drink driving are the same humans who can be & are pilots etc. Being a pilot means nothing. You don't need to be any smarter than someone who can read & write English and have average manipulative skills to be able to fly. We are just as venerable as the next guy, you said it yourself..............Everyone know's drug's are illegal & alcholo in quanties can effect the way we mentally think.....

Yr comments are obvious & I agree totally but only when under the influence of common sense but it will be interesting to see how many do actually get pulled up & caught.

Hopefully none.


CW

[Capn Bloggs]

And what's with this 0.02% rubbish? I thought the CAR said "his or her capacity so to act is impaired"? Isn't the FAA 0.04%?

[Skystar320]

littlehurcules - I want to point something out that I didnt make clear

Common sense you dont take drugs and be under the influence.

What I mean is the 'hard' drugs, with the likes of Cocaine, ice etc.... Not the every day headache tablets, cold & flu - thats fine.... There must be acceptable standards and tolarations for the body to take in the effect of traces of codine [found in headache tablet's]

Doesnt mean your nicked, if you fail a drug test..

[BAe32EP-Chief]

Been an paramedic myself [probationary, before changing jobs] I have been to many incidents where alcohol has been a major factor in the preceedings;

- A Guy [high on ice] though he was superman and punched in a glass door, splitting his arm open

- Responded to a head on car prang where the guy blew 0.10!!!! :eek::eek::eek: the drunk driver caused four deaths

- A male passenger on the train, assulted an elderly man after he was 'caught' looking at his girlfreind at the time, he ended with a broken jaw, three ribs, and 21 stiches......

- Woman passed out on the side of the road after drinking too much.....

It is obvious that all these contribute to the factors above and play a major part......

Although you can drink socially and have a good time, hard drugs as SS320 mentioned are just not on...

[Islander Jock]

I think just the possibility of being tested will be enough to make anyone think twice about flying or carrying out other essential duties whilst under the infulence. For those who want to run the gauntlet, well all we can do is hope that the system will eventually catch up.

In my job I'm constantly subject to being called down to the gate to p1ss in the bottle but in 14 months it hasn't happened yet. Regardless, the thought that it could is enough to make sure I keep the cap on the JB bottle until after hours.

Back in mid 90s the ADF was going to bring it in and I remember warning all the blokes on morning parade. For some reason though it still hadn't been implemented by the time I left in 2000.:ugh: Maybe they followed the advice "if you know you won't like the answer - don't ask the question":p

[Ndicho Moja]

If you do not already keep a medicine log, now is the time to start. Remember mud sticks and a false positive may cause all kinds of problems.

Keep track of what you take, when it was taken, how much and what for. This will go some way to supporting your case should there be a positive result.

False positives happen far too regularly.

[dodgybrothers]

after many years of cr@p patterns and very ordinary rostering ie lates then earlies then lates again, I occasionally aid my journey to snoozetown with a temazopam tablet which is used by many other pilots (and flighties for that matter) as a sleeping tablet. Of course any residual trace of this in your system and its outski.

Its not so much the alcohol, although in past I have overdone it on occasions, but the days of not being able to sleep and 'popping' a temtab are coming to a close, because I will not risk it. If it means that if I cannot sleep due to the companies ordinary rostering I will call in sick. I refuse to have some contractor such as a security screener or a state policeman take a sample and then make an example of me in front of the whole aiport terminal.

[airman1]

I honestly believe that this will cause more trouble then it's worth.

A true and professional pilot would never willingly risk the life of his passengers or crew and fly under the influence of drugs or alcohol. It is a shame that a few pilots try to bend or break the rules and we all end up paying for it. But in saying this I have been flying for a couple of years now and have not know any pilot or operator who takes drugs or would be stupid enough to get behind the yoke half pissed.:=

Just my opinion of cause, maybe I am not looking hard enough??

Ndicho Moja
If you do not already keep a medicine log, now is the time to start

False positives will be the biggest battle for us for sure!!:ugh:

[Howard Hughes]

Professional pilot's don't barrell roll ATR's either, but it happens!:eek:

So what after a positive breath test? Off for a blood test I assume? What happens to the passengers while the pilot is hauled away for a blood test?

What happens to the 'B' sample from the blood test?

Many many questions left unanswered...:hmm:

[EMB120ER]

131 757

Just ring and ask, Howard

[CaptCloudbuster]

Not the every day headache tablets, cold & flu - thats fine.

Actually, you'd be surprised what everyday medicines will turn a positive test. I have on occasion taken Lomotil to get me out of Bali - can't anymore.

Sudafed - nope...

Better get yourselves educated - and fast!

[Howard Hughes]

No need, it won't affect me, unless of course I get a false positive!:eek:

PS: I have now read the documentation a little closer, after positive reading wait 20 minutes and then do another test!:hmm:

[frothy]

We all seem to agree that bottle and throttle don't mix, BUT it does worry me who is going to do the testing after seeing the Security fiasco in all its glory

Frothy

[compressor stall]

As someone who when working in the mines has returned two false positives for drugs I have never seen in my life I have grave reservations about these procedures.

I am on the ramp with pax ready and tested and I get a positive (which is false). Then what?

I have great faith that the testers will afford flight crew the same level of respect as security in the terminal.... :oh:

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Please excuse my ignorance on this people but I had a quick squiz at the pamphlet that's been doing the rounds, but I'm unsure of the exact tested drugs and quantities. I have done the avmed course and know the list from the CASA site but are all of those drugs being tested? Is it a zero tolerance for something like Sudafed? They are testing all employees, not just aircrew and will they have the same requirements for the unacceptable medications?

Sounds like it might be a bit of a complex thing with juristrictions and legality. I personally think it's not a bad thing but as someone has pointed out what happens if the back is playing up and I take a panadeine, can I lose my job? There might be some interesting results in the early stages. I had random drug tests on minesites for over 10 years with the alchol componenet and it worked well but they were only testing for illegals not the prescribed.

[compressor stall]

They were testing for illegals at both the mines where I got false positves. The first test was done in a lab in Cairns and it was not until I got to site that I found out about the barbiturates, but they weren't concerned as we were contractors.

The second was a piss test on site at either Granites or Century (they all blur into one). Woman dismissed the opiates reading with "you don't look like a druggie, so let's not worry about it!!!"

I say again that I have never seen either of these drugs in my life and the only 'medication' I had been on was one Anticol two days prior to the Cairns test to ward off a sore throat.



And is there any legislation forcing us to undertake the test?

[the wizard of auz]

I saw the thread title and got excited thinking I might be able to get into this gig....... testing drugs and booze...... good job I reckon. seems I was wrong and the title a tad misleading. :O

[Capt Claret]

Didn't the Victorian coppers have serious egg on their faces some years ago, when they introduced random drug testing, and allowed the first positive test bloke's face to plastered all through the media.

It later turned out to be a false positive as I recall.

Bit late when one's been humiliated on national TV! :=

[Wunwing]

The interesting bit is what protocols are they using?

In an earlier life as a union leader, we discussed this with DOT, when the US FAA anounced that they had the rights to test anyone associated with flights from OZ to the US.

When asked what safety was built into the checks we drew a blank. We suggested as a minimum we use the same protocol as sports checks which includes 2 sealed samples, one for them and one for you. That way if their sample comes up positive you have evidence if their sample is tampered with. The Yanks didn't like that idea and suggested that we didn't trust them.

Nothing then came of it then, but I think the same still stands. Sports testing is down to a fine art and I think the same process must be given to us. The sportspersons are only playing games, we are dealing with reality.

Wunwing

[Capt Wally]

Yes 'CC' that's right there was a huge fiasco about that drug tested guy who got 'plasterd' in more ways than one ! We are all human even the ones doing the testing & we know from experience that CASA have a track record of stuffing things up big time! The biggest defence to all that are exposed to be tested will simply be don't have anything in yr system anytime yr in charge of a plane, but then again we are talking about humans here and the way we kill each other like flies on this planet this little challenge for us will pale into insignificance!

Stay alert guys/gals, more to come am sure!

CW

P.S.....sorry "wiz" I guess when someone from the 'west' see the word booze it's :p:p:p all round:E

[compressor stall]

On the back page of the propoganda sheet, it states that "the rate of false positives in oral fluid testing is very low. Apropriate confirmatory testing is conducted in a laboratory.

So if I get a false positive I need to wait a couple of days to be cleared. That's a fair while for the pax to wait.... :hmm:

[Superbad]

They think there is a pilot shortage now... Wait until this kicks in!

[dj Mcrae]

I would of thought something like this would have been in a long time ago actually....

Like others i wonder how this will be conducted.

Will it take into consideration the described drugs in the theory book. Antibiotics Analgesics, Antihistamines, Amphetamines(cold &flu) or will it be more like a road test for the main used indulgence drugs.

Also i would like to raise how this will be done as to not flying, pre and post flight? Can someone be Airside and not flying but have medication in them? i know its mainly common sense but i am sure these points may be argued if people are screened >: "yeah i have booze or cold and flu medication in my system but i wasn't going to fly anywhere etc etc". In this case it may take actual company's to get involved.

Its not like there going to have road/airblocks or pull up random planes in the air to catch people in the act. Also post flight you would have thought is chasing the problem after the fact?

[Capt Claret]

I suspect all need to be concerned.

I suspect some will be more worried than others.

I suspect a lawyer's number handy in the phone might be a sign of forethought. A false positive may lead one to answer a question, in good faith, the answer later found to be incorrect, and then one is dealing with perjury. Given that "they" locked up Haneef for quite some time on no charges or evidence, one couldn't be sure that one's rights don't get trampled in the zealous race for a score.

As an aside, I tried to give a friendly word or two of advice to a flight attendant the other day. We were both off duty, and she mentioned how she'd flown at some stage with a hangover.

I suspect that the reason she wouldn't believe me that it is an offence to be aircrew if one's capacity to act is diminished, is because she's a Y-Gen and I'm an old farte, and it doesn't say so in the FA Manual. :ugh:

[Spotlight]

'She mentioned how at some stage she had flown with a hangover'. 'Gen Y'.

Shocking absolutely shocking!

Who knows where this nonsense will take us or if indeed flight crew will be targeted over the easy pickings of ground crew going to work airside through a turnstyle gate.

Nothing I have seen indicates what funding will be allocated. Not much if the Education Program to proceed the implementation that we have been hearing about for the past three years is anything to go by.

Five minutes of web search throws up all sorts of worry. Everyday drugs used for everyday human conditions can cause crossover false positives on saliva tests. Tea totals who eat a lot of fruit can register higher than .02 BAC

Chain of custody for samples, advice of your rights, will you be charged with a Commonwealth Offence?

Some Education campaign!

[flying-spike]

D and A testing will be conducted in accordance with this standard so I suggest that anybody having a concern read this before getting too carried away. In very recent times I helped introduce drug and alcohol testing to an aviation workplace as a contract requirement not a legislated requirement. Overwhelmingly the workforce concerned welcomed the testing as the feeling was "I want to be happy that person I am working with is not under the influence of drugs or alcohol." Our testing was based on the traditional breath testing for alcohol and urinalysis for drugs as there was no standard for saliva testing at that stage. That has now changed.
The program was preceded by an education campaign to allow users to get clean. (anything up to 4-5 weeks for THC).
Then the whole workforce was tested to under a no penalty protocol to establish the extent of random testing required. As there were no positives this was set at 50% of the workforce/annum.
If you read the standard there are strict chain of evidence requirements imposed. If there is a break in the chain the sample is void.
As a rule there is no penalty attached to an initial positive test. That only kicks in after a positive test is confirmed. That doesn't mean an individual would not be stood down on full pay pending the confirmation test as a safety precaution.
If you think you may be under the influence DON'T WORK. If you are taking over-the counter medication , declare it to your employer. Pseudoephedrine found in cold and flue medications will test as ephedrine until the sample is tested by gas chromotography to reveal a more definitive result. If you are prescribed medicine ask your doctor if it could adversely effect abiltiy to function in your particular workplace.

As professionals we submitted to regular tests and checks to confirm our ability to perform our jobs. These tests are just doing the same thing but in a different area of our professional lives. I hope this a help.

[Capt Wally]

Tnxs 'fs' for that informative post.
What bothers me a little is the way these testers go about the task & how they intend to handle any results that may prove positive on first contact. I would hate to think that these guys/gals doing the testing will feel as if they are school yard bullies & treat professional people like pilots engineers etc as if criminals or lower than them. NOBODY likes being subjected to 'big brother' tactics in any format but obviously if no one has anything to hide then it's hopefully just an inconvenience. We shall see no doubt.
As a side to all this I wonder why now? We have had testing available for some years now for rd users. I can't help but wonder what brought this on for pilots, engineers & other airside pro staff to be tested at random now, anybody care to shed some light on that?

CW

[SM4 Pirate]

Yes but what's the risk?

How often are people coming to work impaired? This alcohol/drug testing process isn't cheap. Millions of dollars are being spent just establishing the processes then millions more to keep it running.

The risk and subsequent testing regime on the roads is 'known'; well sort of. IMHO in the case of roads, you only keep the honest, honest for fear of getting caught.

One too many sherbets, oh I'll be all right, "what if I get caught" is the thought process, not "I could cause an accident".

Those who don't care or don't think about it still offend, hence the multiple offender stats; either significant problem which they can't address or simply not thinking of the consequences.

Surely, by now in this modern world we have processes in place to weed (pardon the pun) out offenders (in aviation) without needing to subject the 99%+ of people that wouldn't offend anyway to such a rubbish process. Hence the fear of 'false positives' and the commentary.

Do we worry about the consequence of false positives with the booze bus? Well no, cause it's not career ending; although it could be if there is a conviction.

My greater concern is the "real positives" that will be encountered by people taking cross counter medications, combinations that my be "real positives", but in no way impair judgement / fatigue / alertness / ability to perform. ie an absolutely honest mistake.

What if a "real positive" comes from medication prescribed by a DAME; used in the correct amounts according to the handbook?

Where is the education process? The "cross" medical examiner saying "cold and flu tablets + flying = could end your career" etc. The easily available list of banned drugs and how many hours between consumption and flying / controlling / tooling is ok?

What change in sick-leave will be attributed to the testing, to those otherwise fit for duty, being cautious because they tied one on 3 days earlier?

I believe that the FAA had random testing and after wasting huge amounts of money it's now targeted "tip off" testing only (allegedly).

[flying-spike]

As to "Why Now?", I think for a couple of reason that there has been a fatality that even though drugs weren't attributable as causal in the accident, it demonstrate that they did exist in the pilot's system at the time of the accident. Even though in this case you couldn't say that it demonstrated a representative level of usage in the pilot community it does reinforce what others believe that the level of usage in the aviation community could be a concern. After all the level of usage has increased across the community and there is no evidence to suggest that that increase hasn't also occurred in the aviation community.

As an aside, in recent years there has been an increasing tendancy to cite organisation (management) failures that contribute accidents.i.e bad decisions in resourcing, funding etc. that have contributed to an accident. Will these managers also be tested to see if they are under the influence of drugs and alcohol when they make decisions?(from some of the decisions I have seen, you would think so!)
Lets hope they come under the spotlight as well. Presumably if they hold an ASIC they will. On the other hand they might just tend to stay away from airside more.

[Capt Wally]

'FS' yr posts are quite informative, again tnxs.
It would be a fair chance that pilots over the years have stepped into the 'office' with some alcohol/drugs still in their system known or unknown. Like aircraft with contaminated fuel/oil it does happen at times & will continue happening as long as there are humans involved. Just how we handle these future events by way of random testing etc is the area in question & also how to educate so that the risk is kept to an absolute minimum.
At the very least this debate/discussion is promoting awareness of something that has no doubt been around since the Wright bros.


CW

[Pinky the pilot]

I am really not sure, but I seem to remember someone making the statement a few months back that at the present time you cannot be compelled to submit to these tests!

Do not take the above as Gospel!! I suspect that AFAP has looked into this issue and I hope that someone from the Federation can post some definite information on this subject ASAP.

[compressor stall]

Flying Spike, thank-you for your erudite posts.

If you are taking over-the counter medication , declare it to your employer.

Will the drug tester on the apron listen to your comments that I took over the counter drug X two days ago and declared that to my boss who was happy for me to keep flying as was my DAME?

As a rule there is no penalty attached to an initial positive test. That only kicks in after a positive test is confirmed.

So one could get a positive oral fluid test on the apron walking to your aircraft and still go flying? :confused:

And does not AS4308-1995 deal with drug testing in urine; my understanding is that the ramp testing will be oral fluid? AS4760 is linked here, but you gotta buy it. Is nothing free from the govt these days? :mad:

http://www.saiglobal.com/PDFTemp/Previews/OSH/AS/AS4000/4700/4760-2006.pdf

[amberale]

Also coming to your local ATC center.:eek:

For a number of years ATC have been subject to testing "if the supervisor suspected the controller was affected".
Prior to that, I believe testing was only an option after a serious incident where the supervisor suspected the controller was affected.

Controllers were given access to independently supplied[anonymous] drug test kits for all tested drug groups and advice as to the times/amounts that should be detectable.
eg. while THC can be detected for weeks the tests applied would only show positive if consumed in the previous 3-5days[similar to roadside tests I believe].
Most who took up this option had amusing evenings with their teenage children.:)

I have yet to see how the CASA tests compare to these and can only suggest to all aviation professionals that if we need an over the counter medication then we log it with our employers before signing on and if necessary advise that we are available for operational duty at THEIR dicretion.

AA

[Jabawocky]

Also coming to your local ATC center.:eek:

hehehehhe......... QANTAS 574......... descend to.....ahhh whatever ...ahhhh 5000...... no fffffecking IFFFFFFR traffic.........ahhh resume own nav....ahhh cleared visual approach.......ahhh .....................................................:eek:

I would be surprised if there were any, but lets not assume there are not!

J

[Teal]

the tests applied would only show positive if consumed in the previous 3-5 days [similar to roadside tests I believe]I hope they are not really similar to the Victoria Police roadside tests.....

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2201298.htm

"Police admit error in roadside drug test..a driver..was wrongly identified as the first in the world to return a positive roadside drug test."

A 'statement of regret' (not apology) from Vicpol and a sizable financial settlement of an undisclosed amount.

[Wings Of Fury]

Can they issue us with hand held units to test ourselves first! :}

What if you had plenty of time before sign on, say 9 hrs with responsible drinking the night before and you still registered over zero? An airline I used to work for had testing, and this happened, I was with the Capt. on the over night, he had no more than 6- 1.3 standard drinks.
I guess if your over the limit, your over the limit.

I think there will be plenty of pilots over zero on the alcohol readings in Oz, especially the airlines that have overnights.

On a more serious note, do we know what Airlines will be targeted? is it just the Australian carriers?

I still think it is a little sad we have to test pilots now, imagine doing this 40 years ago! :eek: that would have been interesting.

Also is there any reason to test us? has there been any incidents that should give good reason to test pilots?
Yes, yes I know we should all be reading zero, but random testing, still think that a bit to much.

[Sunfish]

If Sudafed returns a false positive because of pseudoephidrine, then there is going to be lots and lots of trouble if the testing can't distinguish between it and other drugs.

Occasional SCUBA divers like me always keep it handy because a head cold or sinus irritation can ruin a $5000 diving holiday without it. I'm sure that there would be a lot of pilots who would keep it handy as well for approximately similar reasons.

[SilverSleuth]

is there a specific list from casa of what they are testing for? what is allowed? that would be the easiest way to solve most of this.
I also heard sudafed will give positive returns.

[Launch_code_Harry]

As flyingspike mentioned the testing is to A/NZS 4308-2001

Here is a link to an actual reference laboratory to this standard.
Sonic Clinical Institute (http://www.sonicclinicalinstitute.com.au/htm/content_tox_tests.htm#ir).
The documentation is almost identical to the CASA info, so there is a good chance that this lab is the contractor.
The documentation includes typical detection times for various drug. I have included the summary here:

Drug Detection Times in Urine
The drug detection time is the time from the last dose of the drug until a negative screening result is obtained using the cut-off levels in the above table. Detection times vary with different drugs and different individuals and according to the amount and frequency of drug taken. It is important to note that whilst a drug may be excreted in the urine for a significant time, it may not reach the threshold required for a positive result. The following table lists the average detection times for a number of drugs.
http://www.sonicclinicalinstitute.com.au/images/detection_times.gif


The one that is going to catch people out is codeine. Its detection time is 5 days after ingestion. Given that it is in many OTC preparations you need to know exactly what you take & what it contains.
I say again CODEINE up to 5 days. That means no work for 5 days after its use, even in OTC medicines.

I suggest printing it out and keeping it with your medicines.

[SilverSleuth]

thanks for that, very interesting read but once again Are these the things casa is testing? If so or not is there a list like this that actually shows what casa is testing and what levels, just like the list you provided. I think that is the most valuable thing to everyone. Then there is no doubt and everyone can be confident with what is being tested, what you can go to your doctor with and say what i can and cant take.

[Launch_code_Harry]

Silver, they are testing for ALL the above: here is a link to the CASA Final report on Drug & Alcohol testing (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/safety/pdf/Final_Report_Drug_Alcohol_Testing.pdf) which indicates testing to this standard. I quote from that document:
6) THAT zero tolerance testing should apply to five illicit drug groups – cocaine, marijuana,
opiates, amphetamines and phencyclidine.

Codeine is an OPIATE.

Please please please err on the side of caution. Your doctor may not know the standard. Its your licence & your livelihood, and this testing regime is very strict ie ZERO tolerance.

[Capt Wally]

This could get way out of hand, I wonder if it's enforceable by the goons who are doing the testing? I think someone else mentioned this earlier here. Any thoughts from those that maybe in the know with the law?


CW

[SilverSleuth]

Launch I agree with everything you have said. Including that any doctor may not know himself the standard. Hence why i was wondering if there was a CASA list of official what is allowed not allowed so if you go to the doctor for anything before getting scripts etc you can have such a list handy.

[beer bong]

Are CASA employees getting tested??

[Launch_code_Harry]

Silversleuth, to avoid any confusion, the testing regime is ONLY for the following substances:
Alcohol

Cocaine

marijuana

opiates

amphetamines

phencyclidineAs far as I can see in the documentation, other drugs which may affect your performance are not tested for. This is clearly documented in the Final Report on Drugs and Alcohol (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/safety/pdf/Final_Report_Drug_Alcohol_Testing.pdf).
Indeed, the use or misuse of prescription and non-prescription drugs is a distinct danger in itself.
For most treatments for conditions, which are not disqualifying for flying duties for example, aviation safety issues have never been assessed. Some drugs have also been described as ‘aeromedical orphans’, where the effects on aviation safety are unknown.
This particularly applies to recently developed treatments for depressive illness, smoking, benign prostate hyperplasia, erectile dysfunction, diabetes mellitus and malaria prophylaxis.
Where medication is being taken for conditions that are potentially incapacitating, or indeed disqualifying from flying duties, but pilots are not reporting their use, there is yet another issue as to the adequacy and integrity of existing screening measures.
This is a major flaw in the whole deal, along with the need for the above information to be clearly disseminated on a online rumour network, particularly with reference to OTC codeine detection time.
You can pass the test, and still be unfit to fly with other medications. Basically if you take ANY medication, you should inform your operator and seek their aeromed guidance. If you have any doubts, don't operate.

I see this potentially heading towards a more generalised substance & fitness-to-fly issue rather than a "testing regime", in which no substance is deemed safe unless proven otherwise.

[TyreCreep]

In terms of therapeutic drugs, I can see a potentially negative effect on safety from this testing...

[billyt]

So while flying you get a headache and take something with codeine in it for some relief in order to operate safely and now you are a criminal. S..t I would love to be the test case for this one. Imagine the headlines in the press. It would not succeed. The authorities would be ducking for cover so fast.

[Ndicho Moja]

With reference to a previous post I have made on this thread: KEEP A MEDICE LOG. Yes, it is a hassle, but like keeping your log book up to date and reading check lists it will help to keep you out of trouble.

I was first introduced to this practice by my first commuter job back in 1986. In fact it was in their Op's manual including what medicine one could and could not take.

Just do it.

[SilverSleuth]

that is the big thing here. Codeine is in many many things. I would think many cold and flu, headache, cough medicine, would all come up.

[shooter]

If printed on the back of the pamphlet it states;
"the rate of false positives in oral fluid testing is very low." then that is an admission that some tests WILL return a false positive, ie. one of us WILL lose our career over this!

I do however accept that any one in the workplace should be drug and alcohol free but I will only have respect for the legislators when they impose the same requirments on themselves.
We have the right to expect our elected representetives to be drug and alcohol free and submit to the same testing as members of other work places!

[shooter]

Just another thought, is it illegal for pilots to take cold medicine which contains pseudoephidrine?

[Launch_code_Harry]

This is just a clusterf#ck, a google search for psuedoephidrine turned up this CASA Drug & Alcohol FAQ (http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/special/drugtesting/answers.htm#8.4) which appears to directly contradict the Safety benefits of introducing drug and alcohol testing for safety-sensitive personnel in the aviation industry (CASA/ DITRDLG) (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/safety/pdf/Final_Report_Drug_Alcohol_Testing.pdf) (Final Report).
The final report indicates a zero tolerance for the drugs I mentioned earlier, with the appropriate standard (A/NZS 4308-2001). The standard indicates a 5 day detection period for codeine. However the FAQ suggest a day of flight issue only for codeine.
Pseudoephedrine is listed as banned on the FAQ, but not mentioned in the Final Report!

Given that the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard assay will test for pseudoephedrine, I would be concerned taking it too (detection time indicated as 2-4 days).

CASA need to clearly annunciate:
(a) Exact substances that will be flagged as a positive.
(b) Maximum detection time for each substance.

Until there is a clear and unambiguous statement to that effect from CASA, avoid operating within the maximum detection time of any substance listed in the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard. I apologise for any previous error, as I was unaware of the FAQ.
SilverSleuth, take the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard to your doctor & discuss it.

[Cost Index]

CASA has failed in it's education on this issue with Australian pilots and Airlines, Full Stop. The fact that there are this many questions being raised illustrates this perfectly, I for one still am in the dark, and I even attended the Drug and Alcohol conference road show in early '07! :eek: I haven't received a single information pack at home. Just seen a few throw away posters at work.

The CASA rep, and you, Flying Spike et al, refer to this young fella, non ATPL flying a lighty that crashed off the Queensland coast as a great reference for implementing this testing. As was pointed out in this conference by a Senior Chief Pilot, he wasn't conducting Commercial Ops! In fact, as I recall, he also stated that crashes attributed conclusively to Drug and/or Alcohol in Commercial Operations has not happened in a very long time, SO WHY START NOW!? It's a sham.

Questions:
1) I get a bad back every now and then, it's just one of those things that anyone can get, in fact it is stated that at least 2/3 of the population suffer from a bad back at some stage of their life. I take a Codeine based pain killer no later than 12 hours before flight (my personal limit) I feel fine after this and it gets rid of the pain, I get tested, I'M STUFFED! How is this fair?

2) The testing: Where is this done (assume Airline Ops) Public? At the Security Screening? Private? In the flight deck? In the Crew Room? Is the company required to give permission to enter their premises?

3) WHEN I get a false positive for Opiates having taken my pain killer what then? Do I get a second chance after 20mins? Not that it matters because I will still return the same result! Is the machine used in the initial testing the same fancy one that will return my eventual negative, or will it be after a few days from the lab?

4) In the mean time, my company does what for the flight? Delay it? Get another pilot in because one of their pilots has been caught as a Druggie?! That will me be great for anyone’s reputation. The flight is delayed and costs thousands of dollars and loss of face to the airline. If this got out the media will be hot onto this for sure! The airline is then faced with a shedload of negative media attention whilst waiting the result, doesn't matter though, the media and public have already judged. The airline gets the negative result back, then what? A whole heap of proverbial hits the fan in the office and all I wanted to do was my job safely, the same way I have for many years. :yuk:

Too many questions... Not enough forethought by CASA.

[bilbert]

Check it out - ATSB report B20060169-001 -
Accidents and Incidents involving Alcohol and Drugs in Australian Civil Aviation 1 Jan 75 to 31 Mar 06. (Pub June 2006)

31 years - 36 Accidents and Incidents.
Agric-4 Business-1 Flt Trg-2 Awk-3 Sport Av-1
CHARTER-3
**PRIVATE ** 22 (61%)
Largest a/c involved was an N24 Nomad.

Quote from the report "The results of the study show that the prevalence of drugs and alcohol related incidents and accidents in Australian Civil aviation is very low."

Huge Alcohol and Drug problem for the over 5700kg and RPT Eh!

The range of drugs found also makes interesting reading. Just how effective is this testing going to be?

[compressor stall]

In the DOTARS/CASA report linked to above it states: A/NZS 4308-2001 sets the procedures for the collection, detection and quantification of drugs in urine and incorporates a strict chain of custody. It should be noted that there is no Australian Standard for collection, detection and quantification of drugs in saliva, hair or sweat. Only laboratories authorised and accredited with the National Association of Testing Authorities and A/NZS 4308-2001 should be used to test specimens for drugs and medico-legal requirements/standards must be met.

Yet the CASA propoganda sheet states oral fluid testing, and there is now an Australian standard for saliva testing as I linked to on the previous page.

Which is it?

[cats_five]

that is the big thing here. Codeine is in many many things. I would think many cold and flu, headache, cough medicine, would all come up.

In the UK all OTC medicines clearly list their ingredients, so it should be possible to avoid medications containing codeine. If you are now under a random testing regime, I think that in addition to a medical log you also need to become knowledgeable about what you take. The advent of the Internet makes that much easier - you don't need to wait until you take the drug, you can check now for everything you take and if necessary find out what an acceptable alternative is.

[Capt Claret]

Feeling crook?

Don't pop-a-pill, take a sickie.

Next EBA negotiations, increase annual sick leave entitlement .... about double should do.

[tinpis]

And all you boys dropping meds for high BP watch out as well
And mad pills for depression

[compressor stall]

Box 3: An unexpected positive amphetamine result

A 53-year-old man provided a urine sample for drug screening, according to that company's policy. He indicated that he was not taking any medications.

His specimen returned a positive result in the screening test for “amphetamine-type drugs” at an accredited laboratory. Confronted with the result on the next day, he denied amphetamine use.

Convinced that the result was wrong, he provided a second sample. This also tested positive on the screening test. Both samples were subjected to confirmatory testing in the laboratory.

Both samples contained bupropion, the active ingredient in the anti-smoking drug Zyban. The man had overlooked the Zyban when he indicated that he was not taking medications.

This case shows that the original screening test is satisfactory for negative samples (assuming that adulteration and tampering have been reasonably excluded), but it may give positive results from normal every day medicines. Positive results on initial tests therefore have to be confirmed.

Other drugs that can give false positives for amphetamines in both laboratory-based and urine strip tests include some cold and flu tablets and the anti-ulcer drug, Zantac.

Box 4: Another unexpected positive result: true positive, but not from drug abuse

A senior manager of a large company provided a sample during random testing and returned a positive initial screen for opiate drugs (heroin, morphine and similar).

Confirmatory testing proved that morphine was present in the urine at a concentration that exceeded the Australian Standard AS4308. Codeine, which is transformed into morphine in the body, was not detected at a concentration above the standard, meaning that the morphine had not come from a dose of a codeine-containing painkiller. Heroin use or morphine use remained potential explanations.

The company's safety and health advisor investigated. Equipped with advice from the laboratory about alternative sources of morphine, he asked about recent diet.

The source of the morphine was quickly tracked to poppy seed and orange cake consumed for morning tea on the day of testing.

A sample of the poppy seeds used to make the cake was sent to the laboratory for analysis and returned a morphine concentration of 330 milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg) and codeine of 20 mg/kg (same as grams per tonne, put into mining terms). High morphine concentrations in urine can be found after eating a quantity of poppy seeds.


http://www.ferret.com.au/n/Drug-and-alcohol-surveillance-how-do-you-know-it-is-working-n726009

Maybe we should be keeping medicine log and food logs? :bored:

[Zhaadum]

This is all BS. I always take Panadine or similar when I have any pain or headache etc. I find Panadol with no codine too weak to stop the pain.

I personally have no ill effects from it, never get sleepy after taking it.
The pain is just gone.

I for one will be refusing to stop work if they test me and it comes up false positive. STUFF EM! :mad:

First we are all terroists if you are a pilot (ASIC/AVID), and now we are all druggies too! AAARRGGGHH!! :ugh:

[dodgybrothers]

clarrie hit the nail on the head. Feel some pain? A bit crook need some panadeine? Having a barbie with a few mates and might have a few beers?Then just take a sickie. When the sickie rates go up, things may change, until then, use 'em.

[shooter]

Zhaadum - Good post, it is not illegal to take codine and fly so tell them to F**k off and that you have done nothing wrong and you will be going flying.
As I said before, they have admited the tests give false positives and that substances other than illegal drugs give a positive result so under the australian constitution they have no legal standing whatsoever!

[Stationair8]

So what happens when the officially designated CASA piss tester says to you "can you provide me with a sample of your urine", and you reply "sorry just been to the toilet, can you wait for a few hours?"

[Rawrawhammer]

who says it will be urine testing?
wouldn't that be a tad too unprofessional?you can't just expect to be asked to piss in a cup at random by some stranger!
Tounge swipe testing like the one used on the roads would seem more appropriate/relevant as it's much cleaner and only returns positives if drugs have been taken within 24hrs or so for most substances.

[Pinky the pilot]

I have it from a 'reliable source' that as it currently stands, if someone from CASA stops you on the tarmac and asks you to submit to a drug/alcohol test you are not under any obligation to do so!!

Indeed, you may even invite the person requesting you to do the test to take a long walk off a short jetty, or whatever other form of refusal tickles your fancy.

And an official from your company is in the same position,unless the provision to apply these random tests is written into your employment contract and you have signed it.

Legislation to permit CASA to undertake these tests and require a pilot to submit to the test must be passed by Federal Parliament and then, as I understand it, only those CASA officials authorised by the legislation will be permitted to carry out the testing.

[Silent T]

The RAAF has been randomly drug and alcohol testing for a couple of years now. I've been tested a couple of times myself. I know that it won't necessarily be the same, but it was all pretty well explained at the time.
Basically go with the official, pee in a bottle. The pee is measured for temperature to make sure you haven't brought someone elses with you. Then they drip a bit on a couple of testing strips. You wait a couple of minutes and then lines appear on the tester. Apparently very similar to a pregnancy test. Took about ten minutes.

They did mention what they were testing for, and it was the standard 'cocaine, barbituates etc etc' and alcohol. I asked about over the counter drugs and the tester mentioned something about it depends on the concentration in the pee. From what I gathered the test they gave only showed a positve result if it was over some sort of concentration which would indicate a particular sort of drug.

[ernie blackhander]

If i understand correctly this testing will affect everyone who even goes near an aircraft, pilots, loaders, engineers and probably even the cleaners too(if your lucky enough to have them) Fair enough for on the spot testing i support it(dont hate me yet read on), however if you are to test a pilot for example it should be at around the pre flight time in the office not in full public view. Basically just a rbt only looking for alcahol, take a drug swab as mentioned in a previous post and send it to a lab in town. Pilot flys away if no alcahol found and can answer later if drug swab comes back pos. Same applies for everyone else. Now the real problem comes in, you return a pos for dope. You smoked a joint at a party 4 nights ago and have not flown until today when you were tested. Were you impared in your duties 4 days after said joint, i would have to say no. This is where i have my problem with the whole d&a testing. At what point do the testers become the moral police because i'm sure most of the people here know at least one or two people that use recreational drugs (yes i know they are illegal) and even though they may have a smoke at a bbq or on the weekend the vast majority would not even dare turning up to work still high. The test has to be one that only picks up on what has been consumed and is affecting you at the time of testing. end rant

[Reeltime]

The important thing to remember about over the counter medications, that contain something 'contra-indicated' for pilots, is that they are quite legal...you just can't fly having taken them.

If you do take them, you call in sick. I don't think CASA or individual companies have been given the power to say what legal medications their employees can take, to treat minor illnesses.

Sure sick leave rates will climb, but that's the price business will have to pay to operate in an over-regulated society.:hmm:

[Sunfish]

Can some one tell me what Sudafed is classed as? I don't know where it fits in the DAME handbook.

I'm taking cold and flu tablets for a sore throat (typical winter illness) and I'll probably have to cancel a lesson on Monday unless I feel much better, but under the new regime, I'm not sure I can even present myself at the airport and maybe help in the hangar.

I'm also concerned about the rationale for the testing. Are they testing for actual impairment or are they testing for illegal drug use?

My enthusiasm for holding a PPL is gradually being whittled away by bureaucrats. I'm already up for a new ASIC as well.

[Launch_code_Harry]

Finally the the truth is found, in the actual standard, available to be yours for only $78.

S E CT I ON 1 S COP E AND G E N ERAL
1.1 SCOPE
This Standard sets out procedures for the sample collection and the detection and
quantitation of drugs of abuse in human urine. The method is intended for workplace,
medicolegal or court directed detection of any or all of the following classes of drugs:
(a) Opiates.
(b) Sympathomimetic amines.
(c) Cannabis metabolites.
(d) Cocaine metabolites.
(e) Benzodiazepines.
NOTE: The detection and reporting of drug classes other than those listed above is not precluded.
See Clause 6.1(g).
Aspects of this Standard have relevance to testing for drugs of abuse in urine; however,
clinical testing is outside the scope of this Standard. This Standard does not cover the
testing of urine samples following excessive intake of therapeutic drugs or vitamins,
exogenous hormone intake or ingestion of performance-enhancing drugs which may be used
by sports participants.
Procedures for initial testing are set out in Section 4. Procedures for confirmatory testing
are set out in Section 5.

Source: 4308:2001 - Standards Australia (http://www.saiglobal.com/shop/script/Result.asp?DegnKeyword=+4308%3A2001&Db=AS&SearchType=publisheronly&Status=all&Max=15&Search=Proceed) (viewed using the "Preview" link)
Note This standard has been superseded by 4308:2008

It would appear that CASA are testing for drugs of abuse, plain & simple. Zero tolerance is to be applied, the central assumption appears to be the presence of any of these compounds at orders of magnitude below impairment levels indicates a "drug abuser".

Sunfish, Sudafed contains Pseudoephedrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psuedophedrine) a Sympathomimetic amines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathomimetic_drug), a potential drug of abuse, detection period 2 days.

[Sunfish]

But is sudafed and medicines like codral cold and flu tablets safe to take? Both from the point of view of impairment as well as a false positive indication of drug abuse?

While I fly for the heck of it, I have been stuck in an out of the way place (it always seems to happen on the start of a holiday flying trip) and developed the beginnings of a cold - I know the symptoms. Usually a quick trip to the local doc and some precautionary antibiotics and cold and flu tablets nip it in the bud. But what happens next day when, feeling much better, I rock up to the mighty Cessna and get confronted by Mr. Plod asking for a sample? (I assume they will visit regional airports).

At some stage this is exactly what is going to happen.

[Launch_code_Harry]

the initiative will affect all safety sensitive personnel, that is, anyone who is airside and not a passenger
casa.gov.au/aod

Sunfish, impairment is dose related. If you have taken a medicine containing psuedoephidrine and you are airside, I repeat airside & washing your aircraft or minding your own business you can be asked to submit to a random test. If it is positive, you are a potential drug abuser & have to justify yourself to a DAMP.
You cannot be airside or perform any safety related functions with any of these substance above the cut-off thresholds, impaired or not.

[Pinky the pilot]

The way I see the whole issue described in the posts comprising this thread can be described thus;
Unless the Regulating Authority think this whole thing through very very carefully, and compose and enact the legislation with the greatest care and then apply the testing with the same care, I predict that nothing but a huge amount of grief, trouble and strife will come of it!:uhoh::mad:

I leave it to individual Ppruners to make up their own minds what 'grief, trouble and strife' will represent.:hmm:

I really don't want to think about it!:ugh:

[flying-spike]

The following link : http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/parts/099/download/NPRM0703SSA.pdf

covers the intent of the proposed legislation and I would suggest reading it. It should be noted that the testing is to be administered by the employee'sorganisation and that random testing is not a arequirement for an organisation with its own Drug and Alcohol Management Program. That will be a CASA domain. D and A testing is not a new thing. If you have nothing to hide , you have nothing to fear. Like your renewal, licence test or first solo. If you have the right level of knowledge and you act appropriately, there is no problem.

[Launch_code_Harry]

If you have nothing to hide , you have nothing to fear.The problem is that many OTC & prescription medicines also contain drugs of abuse. Next problem is the sensitivity of the testing - these test are exceedingly sensitive. You may be surprised to know that codeine is metabolised to morphine in the body INTOX (http://www.intox.org/databank/documents/pharm/codeine/codeine.htm#SectionTitle:6.4%20Metabolism). The test may show positive to "opiates" for up to 5 days after use - This would be an extreme case, however it is clear that many do not understand this. How many people have taken a headache tablet, Sudophed or cough medicine & closely examined the label? Now if you are airside, having taken one of these medicines in previous few days you may well being positive for the tox screen.
Which leads into you next comment:


If you have the right level of knowledge and you act appropriately, there is no problem
Where is the knowledge? Where is the detailed explanation of all this from CASA? Show us a list of exactly which OTC codeine preparations can be taken at the recommended does & a typical detection time.
CASA should provide a real-world example, eg John takes 3 panadeine tablets in a 24 hour period for a sore tooth, how long would before he would pass an an opiates tox screen. What should John do? How long should he abstain from safety related work?
CASA has provided guidelines & motherhood statements, but no practical information.
I am in no way arguing for the impaired or drug abusers to perform safety related functions. Rather I forsee problems with OTC medicines, at recommended doses and the extreme senstivity of the tests for substances, orders of mangnitude below thereputic/impairment levels.

[Capt Wally]

gotta love official Govt doc's, the first full page, "intentionally left blank" & the last page "intentionally left blank", that about sums it all up !:bored:
Will be vey interesting to see the first 'test' case hit the courts if it gets that far.


CW

[flying-spike]

I don't want be seen as just attacking Launch Code Harry's post but maybe if I try and address each of his points it might help.

"The problem is that many OTC & prescription medicines also contain drugs of abuse. Next problem is the sensitivity of the testing - these test are exceedingly sensitive."


Declare over the counter and prescription meds when reporting for duty
Check with your doctor/DAME when they are prescribed if they could effect your ability to function
The standards specify the level of sensitivity. Remember they are not testing for impairment, just the presence of the drug. Unless you are professionally qualified in the appropriate medical discipline I think it is a bit rich to say the level of sensitivity is excessive."How many people have taken a headache tablet, Sudophed or cough medicine & closely examined the label? Now if you are airside, having taken one of these medicines in previous few days you may well being positive for the tox screen."

You are sticking it in your mouth and you don't know what is in it?
If you can get on PPRUNE you can "Google" the contents of the medication
Just you have an initial test positive it doesn't necessarily mean you can't fly. After all you did declare the medication didn't you?"Where is the knowledge? Where is the detailed explanation of all this from CASA? Show us a list of exactly which OTC codeine preparations can be taken at the recommended does & a typical detection time."


There's heaps on the net and as I mentioned in an earlier post, the testing procedure is preceeded by an education campaign a month or so prior to the commencement of testing. This is usually a part of the package provided by the the testing organisation (usually subcontracted by the employer) to ensure the employees are given adequate time to "get clean" prior to testing.
Again a search of the net will help."CASA should provide a real-world example, eg John takes 3 panadeine tablets in a 24 hour period for a sore tooth, how long would before he would pass an an opiates tox screen. What should John do? How long should he abstain from safety related work?"


Every body metabolises drugs at different rates so an example may be misleading
"John" should see a dentist not a pharmacist
If he thinks he is fit for work he should declare the use of the panadeine to his employer

[amberale]

Flying-spike, while I understand your post[s] my problem is with the practicalities and legal considerations.

I have asked my supervisors [level 3] at ASA what their plan is for this and as yet recieved no response.

If I, as an ATC, take a diazpam tablet to control back spasms, log it in my diary, turn up to work 48 hours later and advise my supervisor of my use, what happens?
My Dame advised me that I would be good for work after 8 hours. I'm trying to get that in writing.:hmm:

If my supervisor lets me plug in and work and I am subsequentially tested and FAIL will I be villified? Will my supervisor?
Should I tell them I am non operational?

If I have an incident, will this be used as a mitigating factor?
I belive ASA policy is testing after a serious incident if the supervisor believes there may be impairment.
So I arrive at work, tell them I took 2 'ibuprofen plus' two days ago and have a near miss or worse on my watch[hopefully not but devils advocate scenario].
I am tested and show positive for opiates.
Who do you think the police and lawyers are going to come looking for?

Should I call work when I take the pills and tell them I wont be available for 4-5 days due to the testing regime?

Can I go to a DAME to get a clearance to work?

ASA has no policy in place for this that I or my supervisors are aware of.
I'm not knocking ASA here just pointing out that a large percentage of ATC, pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc could suddenly not be available for operational duties on a regular basis.

AA

AA

[Teal]

"John" should see a dentist not a pharmacist"John" may have to wait a while because any decent dentist will be booked out for a week or more, so in the meantime he has to 'manage' the pain - just like I am right now. A bit of Nurofen PLUS works well but I note that it contains codeine. I also note that CASA's website asks, "Do I need to tell my employer", then fails to answer the question. Anyway, it looks like employers will need to set up systems and allocate resources to administering a daily inflow of declarations, and try not to stuff it up.:hmm:

[Stationair8]

It will be interesting to watch CASA on this one.

At the end of the day how effective will it be, will CASA have somebody at Alice Springs aerodrome at 3am to check the Westwind going to Darwin, will CASA have somebody at Karratha aerodrome at 7 am on Sunday morning when XYZ's Baron departs for Port Headland, will CASA have somebody at Bundaberg at 08:30 am on a Saturday morning when the local flying school starts, will the bank run pilot going out to Broken Hill pilot get tested on arrival at Broken Hill at Friday lunchtime?

Knowing CASA they will wait until Friday afternoon and hit the domestic terminal at YSSY between 13:30 and 15:30, or will do the police thing and make all pilots pull over on the taxiway and do a random breath test, rego check, licence check etc?

CASA have enough trouble organising staff to conduct ramp checks.

[EMB120ER]

I have never read such CRAP in all my life, you guys really need to get a life.

It took me 5 minutes to pick up the phone and talk to a CASA safety guy in Brisbane. He was able to direct me to the website and give me all the info I needed, without all the DOOMSDAY **** you guys are spreading.

For starters the legislation is not yet released but I was advised that it would be soon. (Good luck to you saying F.....off when it is approved, you may get quite a shock)

The testing is done via ORAL swab or breath sample, exactly the same way and equipment currently in use by the WA, SA and VIC POLICE.
Yes folkes, you can be (and some may have been already) tested on the road by the POLICE right now. I don't hear any of you whinging about that!!!!!

A company that I worked for in the North of WA, has been undergoing drug and alcohol testing (via urine test) for over three years. this testing is done by the local shire under a WA Gov order for all workers within the shire. Surely in that three years there must have been MANY false positives for people on OTC drugs for headaches and clods/flu's. Well guess what, NO there was not. .There were however a few guys stood down due to being affected by alcohol (non-Pilots), and a whole load more who decided to not risk it after a heavy night.

The testing is to be conducted by an contracted third party who run programs for the government and ports authority around Australia.
But don't let the facts get in the way of your whinging!!

[Stationair8]

Yes until its your licence that is suspended.

[Zhaadum]

SHHH! No need to shout EMB120ER.... Gawd!

Some of us are getting over our hangovers mate! :}:ok:

[EMB120ER]

Sorry Zhaadum, but it was 2.30PM so I had assumed you would be over it by then. Must have been a good night, Cheers!

Stationair8 (is that a 207?) do you really think it will come to that?
And if it does, are you sure that natural justice won't apply?

I can see how you pilot types can be upset by that prospect, but truly I think all that we are bieng asked to do is comply with a resonable standard. The other day one of our contract customers saw a brochure from CASA on the whole drug and alcohol thing, first thing he did was to call us and ask if it was true that there was no testing and policy requirments. He nearly shat himself when I said there was not.
He was perfectly happy that the Pilots have a good reputation (which I alowed him to continue beliving) when it comes to such things but was woried about engineers and ground staff who don't always have such a good record.

Anyhow all I was really trying to say, was STOP (sorry STOP) guessing and gestulating, go and get the facts and you will find this is no more of an inposition than what you already have from the POLICE. I mean why worry just about your pilots licence, you take EXACTLY the same risks driving to work (.02 vs .05 accepted). In other words there will be no changes needed for MOST of you, but some of us will have to look closely at some other employees.

Cheers, off to get my last Crownie from the fridge.

[compressor stall]

EMB120ER

But don't let the facts get in the way of your whinging!!



I will say again - I have had two (2) separate false positives from urine drug tests. I have never seen either drug in my life. :ugh:

[EMB120ER]

Drug testing for the mines was it Compstall.

But if you have had two positives, how is it you still have a licence and are not bieng hounded by the POLICE. Sorry as I don't want to make light of your situation but according to the doomsdayers here your whoile life should be ruined. I have never seen or heard what the rate of false positives is for Urine based drug testing is.

So false positives do occur, this is the first time I have heard from someone who has actualy had that happen to them and two of them. All I can say is go buy a lotto ticket.

At the company where I work the senior drivers and us ops types got together and worked our way through a policy with the boss. The policy (not yet completed) gives grace to the posibility of a false positive test. The pilots and ops reps made it clear that while they ALL agreed that an employee who tested positive SHOULD be stood down for that shift, that no penalty can apply to them until such a positive is proven. There was still some concern with this wording so the chief pilot looked up the WA Police oral drug testing information as this is the same type bieng proposed by CASA. The result was that there is an indicative "False Positive" rate of less than 0.5%.

So if CASA intends for 5000 people to be tested each year, at its worst this will be 25 people who may be effected by a false positive. Lets hope that they have a proactive company policy that alows for this circumstance.

Good heaven I found another Crownie in the fridge Hallalooya.

[Sunfish]

Found on the web by googling. I wonder what CASA has to say to this?

....Of course you won't be flying with some of these medications anyway.

Marijuana False Positives Back to Top
Over-the-counter NSAIDS: lbuprofen; Advil, Nuprin, Mediprim, Motrin, Bayer Select Pain Relief Formula, Excedrin IB Caplets, Genpril, Haltran, lbuprin, Midol 200, Pamprin, Trendar Cramp Relief Formula, Cramp End Tablets, Medipren, Rufln, Naproxen, Aleve, Ketoprofen, Orudis KT. Prescription NSAIDS: Anaprox, Tolectin, ifenoprofen, flurbiprofen, oxaprozin, Ansaid, Clinoril, Dolobid, Feldene, Indocin, Lodine, Meclomen, Motrin, Nalfon, Naprosyn, Orudis, Relafen, Voltaren. Over-the-counter allergy preparations, sleep aids and antinausea medications that contain promethazine: Phenergan, Promethegan. Riboflavin (vitamin B2), Dronabinol, Edecrin.

Cocaine False Positives Back to Top
Amoxicillin, tonic water, kidney infection, kidney disease
liver disease, diabetes.

Amphetamine False Positives Back to Top
Over-the-counter cold and allergy remedies that contain ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, propylephedrine, phenylephrine or desoxyephedrine: Nyquil, Contactd, Sudafed, Allerest 12-Hour, A.R.M., Triaminic 12, Ornade, Tavist-D, Dimetapp, Sinex, Neosynephrine, Actifed, Bayer Selectd Maximum Strength Sinus Pain Relief Caplets, Contact Non-Drowsy Formula Sinus Caplets, Dristan Cold Caplets, Maximum Strength Sine-Aid Tablets, Maximum Strengeth Sudafed Sinus Caplets, Maximum Strength Tylenol Sinus Gelcaps, No Drowsiness Sinarest Tabs, Sinus Excedrin Extra Sterength Caplets, Characol Sinus, Drixoral Cold and Flu, Efidac/24, Phenegan-D, Robitussin Cold and Flu. Over-the-counter diet aids containing phenylpropanolamine: Dexatrim, Accutrim. Over-the-counter nasal sprays: Vicks inhaler, Afrin. Asthma medication: Marax, Bronkaid tablets, Primatine Tablets. Prescription medication: Amfeprainone, Cathne, Etafediabe, Morazone, phendimetrazine, phenmetrazine, benzphetamine, fenfluramine, dexfenfluramine, dexdenflurarnine, Redux, mephentermine, Mesocarb, methoxyphenamine, phentermine, amineptine, Pholedrine, hydroymethamphetamine, Dexedrine, amifepramone, clobenzorex, fenproyorex, mefenorex, fenelylline, Didrex, dextroamphetamine, methphenidate, Ritalin, pemoline, Cylert, selegiline, Deprenyl, Eldepryl, Famprofazone

Opiate False Positives Back to Top
Poppy seeds, Emprin, Tylenol with codeine, Capital with codeine, Margesic, rifampicin, Vicodin, Percodan, Percocet, Wygesic.

Benzodiazepine False Positives Back to Top
Most prescription sleeping pills and anti-anxiety medication.

Barbiturate False Positives Back to Top
Fiorinol, Donnatol, some sleeping pills, antiasthmatic preparations that contain phenobarbitol, Dilantin.

LSD False Positives Back to Top
Migraine medication: egotamine, Ergostat, Cafergot, Wigraine, Imitrex. Hydergine, bromocription, methysergiside, lisuride, lysergol, Artane, triprolidine, amitriptyline (Elavil), dicyclomine (Bentyl), antinausea medications that contain promethazine: Phenergan, Promethegan.

Ecstacy False Positives Back to Top
Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, propylephedrine, phenylephrine, or desoxyephedrine
(Nyquil, Contact, Sudafed, Allerest, Tavist-D, Dimetapp, etc) Phenegan-D, Robitussin Cold and Flu, Vicks Nyquil Over-the-counter diet aids with phenylpropanolamine (Dexatrim, Accutrim) Over-the-counter nasal sprays (Vicks inhaler, Afrin) Asthma medications (Marax, Bronkaid tablets, Primatine Tablets)
Prescription medications (Amfepramone, Cathne, Etafediabe, Morazone,phendimetrazine, phenmetrazine, benzphetamine, fenfluramine, dexfenfluramine, dexdenfluramine,Redux, mephentermine, Mesocarb, methoxyphenamine, phentermine, amineptine, Pholedrine, hydroymethamphetamine, Dexedrine, amifepramone, clobenzorex, fenproyorex, mefenorex, fenelylline, Didrex, extroamphetamine, methphenidate, Ritalin, pemoline, Cylert, selegiline, Deprenyl, Eldepryl, Famprofazone) Kidney infection, kidney disease Liver disease, diabetes.

[Adamastor]

The facts:

CASA will be doing random testing (probably from around Aug/Sept, once the regulations have been passed by the parliament) of about 5-10% of the workforce that is performing (or available to perform) safety-sensitive aviation activities (this means anyone - not just rank and file). CASA will not be doing targeted or post-accident testing.

All CASA testing will be via breath sample for alcohol and via oral fluid sample for other drugs. No urine, hair, sweat or blood.

Drugs being tested for are alcohol, cannabis, cocaine, amphetamine-type stimulants and opiates. Medications such as anti-depressants/anti-anxiety, anti-hypertensives, HIV/AIDS medications, viagra, contraceptive pill, cholesterol lowering drugs, etc will not be detected and are of no interest to CASA.

The 0.02% level for alcohol is to account for the fact that some cough syrups, mouthwashes, etc contain small amounts of alcohol. 0.02% is a reliable measure on the breathalysers.

All on-site tests will be subject to a confirmation test (for alcohol, this is done on-site on an evidential machine within around 20 mins ... for other drugs, the sample has to go off to the laboratory for GCMS). All positive test results coming out of a lab must go through a Medical Review Officer for verification and discussion with the sample donor to ascertain whether there could be any legitimate or confounding reason for the result. This is a strong protection for people that return a positive sample.

[3RAR]

If anyone bar a DOCTOR OF MY CHOICE attempts to stick something in ANY OROFICE OF MINE he had better have a mouthguard health insurance and a month or so of sick leave owed to him.


I wonder how Mr Byron would react if Ms Byron was told that if she wants to keep her job she will have to be penetrated is some way by a total stranger who just happens to be the cheapest bidder.


And you F##KWITS are still wondering why there is a pilot shortage :ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

Adamastor,

Where might one find details of the facts. I had a quick look on the casa website and must have missed it.

So I gather from your post that they are testing for illegal subsances and alcohol only.

[flying-spike]

It is a real pity that such an irrational outburst comes from somebody identifying with a fine body of Australian servicemen. Let's keep it informed and rational please

[EMB120ER]

Clearly not associated with 3RAR, as the ARMY has been doing random drug and alcohol testing for some years.

Mr Hat, the web site is shown on the front of the CASA web page, but I belive it is something like www.aod.gov.au (http://www.aod.gov.au) there may be a casa in there somewhere as well.

[teresa green]

Forty years ago, Wings of Fury,:bored: there was more than one pilot and cabin crew member who had a suck on a oxy bottle to clear the head!

[8888]

3RAR, you couldn't have said "I'm a moron any more clearly"

Where would a car driver be if he were to say same to a police random breath tester? If it's legislated for aviation then it's legislated. Live with it.

EMB120... You can't be a pilot. Too much well written, rational literature coming from you.

[Mr. Hat]

cheers EMB i suspected it was there just couldn't see it. I need a coffee.

Now thats one drug i couldn't live with out!

[Neeewman]

Unfortunately, it is as allways the unimformed irregular user that gets caught in the tests, ( a drunken toke at a party etc)
People regularly using drugs are the people most likely to pass a drug test.
Arm yourself.
Read
http://www.ureasample.com/pass_a_drug_test_tutorial/pass_a_drug_test_1b.shtml

Forearmed is forewarned guys :}

[blokehitchedwith2]

I want to see the evidence that shows we need this sort of invasion of our privacy due to the high accident rates and the dugs and alcohol that were involved.
What?? You don't have any? Then f@#k off with your fascist tactics.

Oh and by the way I have a medical condition that according to the lists above could get me false positives for drugs I don't take. Will I have to get a letter from my GP every time I get a false positive?

[xxgoldxx]

Ok lets forget the false + stuff for a bit ..

Can anyone tell me .. if after 5 beers I get my wife to drive me to the airport to polish the windscreen on my (homebuilt/ga/exp/etc) aircraft and I get tested.... over .05 airside..

I am also a ATPL Pilot due to fly next day... Am I in breach of the rules ??

I am a LAEME who has a beer after work in the hangar.. I have forgotten my pen after signing the MR that is still in the aircraft.. as I go to get it after 4 beers I get tested... over .05 airside....

Am I in breach..?

Is it a simple as .02 etc Airside.. ? if i have a beer in the A/C or at the pub in the town next door while my mate fly's and then get tested on landing have I breached the rules ??

[Bendo]

blokehitchedwith2 is that your RSVP Chat name or what? :}

AOD testing is about risk management - although the likelihood of a pilot being impaired at work is very small, the potential consequences are catastrophic.

Same-same for LAMEs and everyone else.

As others have said above, we have been living with this idea for over 20 years on the roads and it is absolutely standard practice in most Australian industries using machinery... I can't believe it's taken this long in Aviation, or even believe we're having this debate!

...it's just a part of life.

EMB120ER ...Thank you! - well said. :D

Like Comp Stall I have been subject to random D&A testing on mine sites - given your limited exposure to mine sites over a relatively short time, Stallie mate I dunno what you were eating! In six years as a mining contractor (with 10% of our workforce randomly tested each week) I never returned a positive sample. There were several guys who did, however, and they were stood down on full pay until the results could be verified.

IF the results were verified as illicit drugs, the employee was referred to the company's AOD rehabilitation policy and was required to provide clean samples before they could return to work.

IF you refused to submit to the test, you were stood down without pay until you provided a doctor's certificate stating you were clean.

IF, on the day of the test, you shoot through and go home, you would be subject to a test when you next turned up to work.

The Chain of custody for the samples was water-tight and taken very, very seriously. Everyone doing the testing was aware that people's livelihoods were at stake, and everyone in the operation was aware that being at work under the adverse influence of anything could kill you, or one of your mates.

Sometimes, reading these threads, I think that some Aviation "professionals" could learn a thing or two from labourers I have known in the mining industry.

On another note- At one Anglo Coal site in the Hunter two or three blokes would get advanced warning of the test, pop 2 Panadeine Forte's and win themselves 4 days off on full pay :D The subsequent testing confirmed it was legit medication, and the HR dept had a doctor's letter in a sealed "medication" envelope in their files stating that employee ABC sometimes took Panadeine Forte for acute back pain. :rolleyes:

[Socket]

give it a rest everyone. CASA was told to institute this by mid year, they still havent posted the ground rules so like anything else with casa its wait and see.
I predict they will rush in a rule, fukc someone up, then be in court for a year.

[flying-spike]

Well said that man.
With the knowledge that psychosis and possibly pschysophrenia may be symptomatic of the use of some illicit drugs I am starting to develop an understanding of why some can't understand or won't accept Drug and Alcohol testing in aviation!

[Muffinman]

Lucky they found this captain before he did the preflight....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1VmGjJJFrc

[3RAR]

After a night finish I went back into work last week to get my sunnies. I left them there because it was about 5:30am when I left and still dark. We were having an audit by CASA at the time which I had forgotten about and really didn t give a f##k about as I was off duty and only there as a civie'.

As I walked through the pilots room to my locker the CASA rep blocked my progress and asked me if I flew %%%%% (aircraft type). I said yes and that I was not on duty and only here to pick up my sunnies and leave.

He insisted on asking me tech IFR questions. Again I told him I was only there to get my sunnies and actually said "F##k off mate, I am off duty". He continued with the questions which I answered correctly and then he said I was "FREE TO GO".

8888 I think you are following your own agenda because you know my IRL identity, and revel in your new annonimity with this logion, however, in context, if you now see what has happened on my time off, not associated with my employment, within the law, I became subject to the random annalisys in my off duty time and after explaination of where and why I was there I was still expected to pass any examination posed to me as if I was PIC of an IFR flight.

Foresight of this event was what caused what I admit was an outburst on this thread. Justified or not at the time, experience shows what to expect from a regulatory body that sees no boundry to its duristiction.

My point here is that I could have had two full strength beers and driven to work within the law to do what I had to do, and then find myself after explaining why I was there, out of uniform and off duty, facing criminal charges and a loss of licence (and job) due to the fact that I am subject to regulation and testing to a degree not required , to the best of my knoledge, of any other profession or trade.

For anyones sensitivities I offended with my first post on this thread. I do hope now that with this factual example that I have explained myself and my feelings at the \ time.

I am concerned that if I have told this guy I am off duty, attending this place for personal reasons and he feels he still has cause to test my knowledge for professional reasons, I would have to also ask where is the boundry.

I was off duty, and ‘Old Mate’ still saw fit to question me, so if I am at home is it still reasonable to expect a knock at the door to blow in the bag?

In principal I have nothing against DnA testing and I have nothing to hide. My concern here is that it may be applied with the same questionable jugement that this, and other experience has made me accustomed to.

BENDO SAYS
As others have said above, we have been living with this idea for over 20 years on the roads and it is absolutely standard practice

What makes me angry is these guys want to test us not because we are about to fly for a living, but because we want to fly for a living.

[Mr. Hat]

whats the go with the random ifr questions? do you have to answer them even if you are on duty?

i like the fk off mate - nice one. you should have given him a good choking in the car park

[no one]

So now I know why we pay;

$75 for medical, $65 CPL/ATPL exam per subject, etc.
It is to help finance further checking, testing & probing programs.

Couldn't agree with blokehitchedwith2 more
"I want to see the evidence that shows we need this sort of invasion of our privacy due to the high accident rates and the dugs and alcohol that were involved."

[Mr. Hat]

no one,

its like all the other things that keep people in a job you know the high viz vests the asic cards the security bullsh:mad:y ect ect

[ICAO-Delta]

For once CASA is on the front foot. If you can't handle that, then get out of the cockpit or workshop or ATC unit, etc!

CASA should not have to rely on a history of Drug and Alcohol related accidents and/or incidents to decide to be pro-actively trying to avoid accidents and/or incidents that have a connection to misues of Drugs and/or Alcohol.

The sad reality is that many people regardless of their social, economic, or ethnic, etc background, do misuse Drugs and/or Alcohol. The aviation community is not immune to such misuse BUT, importanatly, the aviation community manages a high risk mode of transport that cannot afford even minor transgressions. That CASA is attempting to identify transgressions known to be capable of causing unacceptable risk exposure to the flying public (which includes me) gives me a great deal of comfort.

Off-duty or not, you should not be an impediment to CASA officers lawfully conducting their duty. If 3RAR bothered to read the regulations related to drugs and/or alcohol impairment, you would realise that provided you are not contributing to the aviation service for which you are trained (other regulations relate to how you may interfere with an aviation service when neither trained nor on duty), you need not fear prosecution.

Some of the posts on pPrune here and elsewhere, indicate to me that I have had a misperception that all aviation employees are professionals. Clearly, some are not and some (even more disturbingly) lack simple (let alone the required complex) intelligence.

ID

[future.boeing.cpt]

I also work part time at Air NZ as a baggage loader, and we're subject to random alcohol/drug screening also.

[tasdevil.f27]

All for it, why should I be at risk at work from someone under the effects. Lets just say that a certain airport, at a certain company (where i did work) half, yes half the pit crew used drugs & were under the effect of them when servicing your planes. And this was only last year and nothing was ever done about it. (and these guys are still ) obviously not been tested yet or hopefully have stopped, me thinks the first one.

Some may say big deal, there are only chucking bags, but they operate tugs around the aircraft and around passengers on the tarmac. They do the receipt & dispatch duties etc also.

[james michael]

ICAOD

I'm uncertain I agree with you would realise that provided you are not contributing to the aviation service for which you are trained (other regulations relate to how you may interfere with an aviation service when neither trained nor on duty), you need not fear prosecution.The Regs are all embracing as distinct from the protection of fare paying pax. In a GA situation, the matter of two beers in the airfield bar - legit to maintain control of a motor vehicle and/or walk across the road - then remembering one's headset still in the aircraft so quietly across the taxiway carefully checking for any a/c taxying to collect one's goods with no intention of control of the a/c - according to my reading still leaves one liable to be pinged. Ditto people camped under the wing at a fly in.

The latter may be workable by written exemption via the fly-in organisers, the former is open to persecution (as distinct from prosecution). I would have no concern re the interpretation and enforcing of commonsense regulation - were it not for the lessons of history with CASA.

[Sunfish]

I've noticed that the regs aren't published yet, at least on CASA's website (CASR part 99).


Reading the NPRM, I think there are questions that must be addressed.

- the few beers at the aero club bar followed by "retrieving one's headphones or helping someone push an aircraft".

- the Birdsville races.

- even going into the ops office or hangar after a good lunch.

Furthermore, I am surprised that the regs actually allow 0.02 percent alcohol, since as I interpret the regs today, the limit is effectively zero.

The problem can be solved satisfactorily by CASA being extremely careful about the definition of "Safety Sensitive Aviation Activities" in their regulations to rule out activities that are not essentially aviation related in that they do not require some form of qualification or training.

If CASA doesn't do this, then my guess is that some very nasty personal vendettas will follow, and eventually the Courts will force CASA to rewrite the regulations for reasons of natural justice.

[james michael]

Sunfish

We share the wavelength. In a perfect world of natural justice we would be unconcerned.

From memory from my research and meetings on D&A, the testing would also flow at CASA decision to off airfield maintenance sites. That embodies benefit and concern.

Having read the Ombudsman paperwork on one vendetta against a LAME, who achieved justice only after much pain, I am concerned.

The data on D&A abuse warrants action, it is the quality and integrity of the fieldwork and the appeal process that counts.

As an aside I supported the road reg approach - zero for professional people movers, 0.02 for others (0.05 being unacceptable). CASA felt proving zero a risk was an issue.

[ICAO-Delta]

James

It is not CASA that prosecutes. It is the DPP so CASA's 'history' is irrelevant.

The regulations are about being impaired whilst exercising your licence or authority, etc, not about having had a drink or two and sleeping it off whilst sleeping under the wing. Lets be real. Don't go looking for demons that aren't there.

I am VERY confident that a court will be able to recognise the difference.

ID

[james michael]

ICAO D

Reality check - the CDPP prosecutes based on information supplied by CASA. The CASA history is anything but irrelevant.

Fortunately the CEP will improve the process by better review before it gets to the CDPP.

Demons not there? I have been in discussion and focus groups re D&A testing with CASA. The demons are residing in Pandora's box, not just in my mind. They don't yet have solid answers to the airside issues I raised.

As a small aside, what many don't realise is that CASA intends to kick off the D&A testing then later hand it to industry. QF and the biggies already have infrastructure there, I'm not certain some of the little operators will be happy about the cost.

I'm all for D&A testing - I just don't believe 'trust me' is much help to someone sweating on a court appearance. And I have just researched a case of an AOC holder who spent $35K to clear the air on a case that I can only describe as conducted with malice afterthought before it got to the DPP. Not expanding on that, it's been canvassed earlier.

I have high hopes that the culture change moving through CASA will result in a completely opposite opinion from me in years to come. For the present, I am like Cochise - I have reservations :)

[8888]

3RAR, no agenda. Just took your earlier post at face value and figured... Well you know what I figured. Copied your explanation. Cheers. As for your IRL or identity or whatever it was that you were alluding that I might know... Umm... no?

[Trojan01]

Has the testing started yet? An earlier post says

The problem can be solved satisfactorily by CASA being extremely careful about the definition of "Safety Sensitive Aviation Activities" in their regulations to rule out activities that are not essentially aviation related in that they do not require some form of qualification or training

Is safety sensitive aviation activities defined yet? I can think of lots of grey areas.

[xxgoldxx]

ICAO

you are quite possibly well intentioned but you are ill informed...

If i get tested in uniform on the way to work or any time thereafter then i deserve what i get.. if its false i will have my chance to defend it...

I have DIRECTLY questioned the CASA team on these scenarios and If I was to walk accross the tarmac at .03 on the weekend to get my headset, sunnies, clean the windscreen, say hi to a friend or whatever, I can be tested and if posititve I will be charged
THERE IS NO FALSE POSITIVE HERE, I AM GUILTY !!!!
no keys no MR, no night rating if its dark, no IFR rating if its raining, it doesnt matter.... !!

This is akin to being booked DUI for walking through a cark park !!!

You still think this is a good idea ??

[Trojan01]

Where is the sense? There are lots of questions here.
Are the people doing the teting open for testing themselves if they are on an airport? If so who tests them? Do they have right to access a private strip to test the owner? Are records going to be kept of the people tested? Are CASA people up for testing when they are making their decisions?

[compressor stall]

You might find this thread (http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-points/344404-damps-drug-alcohol-management.html?highlight=DAMP+drug) answers some of your questions. It was started when this came into law.

This thread is revived from when it was first mooted.

[African Wings]

Good morning folks
Our Chief pilot was tested yesterday after a few of us complaint about his recent behavior. He was tested nearly 3 x normal quantity.
A bad problem is faced here but we all learned.
Fly safe (and sober)
AW

[QFramp]

What about testing for steroid use?. There not fun to work with either. Feds nab 2 workers at syd for coke yesterday..but are they any worse than some steroid munching ASO

[Wunwing]

Interesting that this thread has resurfaced after nearly 6 years.I would have to say my experience of the whole project is one of frustration and over the top box ticking.To me it has been very poorly implementd on CASA's part

Up until a year ago I was the DAMP supervisor of a large aircraft museum and among other things was responsible for writing,obtaining approval and administrating the process.Obviously as it is a volunteer organisation a large number of workers are retired and therefore over 65.From my experience the whole DAMP process (up to last year at least) is based around pilots in as much as it assumes near perfect health and therefore no medications.In the case of this organisation a large number were on valid and necessary medications. In the aviation scene in general, the majority of aviation participants are not pilots and have no job requirement to be in perfect health. It now appears to have disappeared but one of the early CASA examples of who could be tested was the person washing the airport refuelling truck.I asked at the time why cant that person safely do his job if he is suffering from say, arthritis and needs painkillers?There was no answer beyond this is the standard no exceptions.The answer that I wanted is why are there no exceptions.

The problem is compounded by the fact that there is no way of registering approved meds with CASA. So if you are tested and found positive,suspended and the investigation clears you of illegal use, then retested the next day after clearance you have to go through it all again, and again etc.How this fits in with the Feds decision to take retirement age to 70 I cant conceive.Certainly under those circumstances you wouldnt keep your job for long.I have discussed this with the Human Rights Comission and they appear to agree that the DAMP process has some interesting implications. However up to last year at least this has not been tested in the discrimination arena.Again I have been out of it for over a year so maybe there are improvements on CASA's part, but if there are I haven't seen them.

So while I understand QFramp's problem with persons on questionable steriod use, medically prescribed steroids are a valid medication and widening the drug net just makes it harder for persons with valid medical conditions to contnue to earn a living or participate in aviation.Remember you all now have to make 70 to retire.

Wunwing