Garuda again !!

[capt.cynical]

From Crikey.com.au


Garuda almosts land on airport workers. Will Rudd demand answers?

Ben Sandilands writes:

An alarming incident at Perth Airport involving a Garuda Indonesia 737, more than 100 predominantly Australian passengers and a construction crew working on a closed section of a runway last Friday has come to light.
The flight from Denpasar was about to land when the pilots queried why they could see vehicles and machinery at the end of the runway and began a go-around.
Perth tower is understood to have been doubly surprised.
Not only had Garuda and all other airlines using the airport been issued with a special notification of the work, which instructed them to use a displaced threshold, meaning land further down the runway than normal, but a copy of these instructions had been transmitted to the flight as it approached Perth.

Make that a triple surprise. The Garuda flight then lined for another landing on the runway and appeared at imminent risk of touching down right on top of the work site.

The tower ordered the Indonesians to abort the landing approach and go around again, but they kept coming, levelling off at the last moment to skim over the obstacles and then land safely on the remainder of the runway.

A major investigation has been launched by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau. It is certain to ask whether or not the original notification to all pilots was clearly written (which Crikey understands that it was), whether Garuda’s operations division actually read and acted upon the notification, whether its pilots paid any attention to the electronic copy of the notification sent to their flight, and whether they understood the urgent advice from the tower to discontinue their landing approach and what factors might have made them ignore its directive.

This is a serious matter. While the ATSB only deals with the technical aspects of incidents with a view to furthering aviation safety, there is a political dimension which PM Rudd, as leader of the opposition, grasped in the aftermath of the 7 March, 2007 atrocity in which another Garuda 737 crash landed at Yogyakarta Airport which killed two AFP security officers, two Australian government employees, one journalist, 17 other passengers and left dozens injured or crippled among the 118 survivors.

That Garuda jet was still a smoking ruin when Rudd called for criminal sanctions against the pilots involved, who tried to land it on a short runway at twice the normal speed.

Subject to the findings of the investigation, what will the PM do about the antics of Garuda (which is responsible for the competency of its pilots) at an Australian airport?

Or does being in government make it all too hard to demand answers and actions?
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[rmac]

Have to agree with you totally about the risks of flying Garuda, used them a lot when I worked in Indonesia.

What concerns me most about your mail though, is my surprise at how many communications systems (last two lines of your post) Oz has in place to encourage people to inform on their neighbours and mates :eek:

[captjns]

Somethings just never change.

[permFO]

A lot of the lazy jouno's in Oz rely on the general public to do their leg work. They sit at a keyboard and blog then call it journalism. Unfortunately the Big Brother mentality ensures that there is no shortage of people trying to get their 15 minutes of fame.

[limelight]

What does the comment on a journo have to do with what has been said? Crikey is usually good on new aviation info. Comment on the substance, not the fact that a e-zine or journalist published it. Is it factual, and it looks like it is.

[dkaarma]

What concerns me most about your mail though, is my surprise at how many communications systems (last two lines of your post) Oz has in place to encourage people to inform on their neighbours and mates :eek:

It should be said that Crikey is an online daily publication that deals in business and media rumours/gossip rather than a traditional magazine/newspaper. (not that that's a bad thing - I like reading Crikey)

[Spitoon]

Don't know any more than what's posted here but this sort of thing - aircraft trying to land on WIP short of a temporary displaced threshold - has happened many times and the world over. Whatever the reasons, clearly it is all too easy to do.

In these days of safety management, maybe it's time to close runways when there is work going on.....not that that is any cast iron guarantee that no-one will try to take-off or land on it, I know, but at least it reduces some of the risk.

[Trojan1981]

100 predominantly Australian passengers
Gluttons for punishment?
How is it that they are banned from the EU but still allowed to fly to Australia?
After spending some time in Indonesia and seeing the operations of Merpati a few years ago I would never get on an Indonesian airliner.

[segajet]

I have to agree with previous posts about Indonesian operators. The worst thunder storm I experienced during thirteen years in SE ASia was one afternoon in Jakarta.Most days the worst cb's seemed to lurk over the high gound to the South of the field, but on this occasion they drifted over the top. Despite 1000mts. in heavy TS, with windshear, and multiple lightening strikes, on the airfield,including our aerobridge, Mepati and Garuda just kept on trucking. I don't know if its commercial pressure or just a lack of imagination.

[ecureilx]

just a 2 cent of my experience in asia ..

when I was in india once, despite the horrible weather, the airlines were flying.. and we had some nasty air pockets.

one of my colleagues, a british commented that they should stop flying if the weather is bad, instead of subjecting passengers through the roller coaster rides.

An indian Railway engineer seated next to us casually commented - "if we stop operating in bad weather, we will never have flights in this part of the world for half the year, and secondly, in Europe cancellation will inconvenience a few thousand people, while in Asia, cancellations will create a domino effect running into 10 times or 100 times stranded passenger, compared to Europe.

And same goes for the train services in India. Apparently, even when there is severe storm, they prefer to operate, even at slower pace, and keep stopping when the floods are overflowing bridges and such, than cancel trains and strand many more thousands, just from one day of cancellations.

Not every country has the luxury of hiding under covers when it rains, I guess.

Coming to Garuda, while aussies have a serious love hate affair with Indonesia, (including the public roar in Aussie for the Bali Nine) Garuda is not as horrible as the picture being painted. Maybe an Aussie can tell why Aussies hate indonesia, but still insist on partying and holidaying in Indonesia.

GA maintenance and training is supposed to be top notch, though you have slips when you are forced to fly and keep the country alive, rather than run for covers when it seems to be bad WX. It is far far from Adam air and such, in terms of MX and pilots.

Maybe one of the Indonesian experts can enlighten all of us

I gotta agree though you do get a few rotten apples here and there, maybe those in GA get caught more often ... :mad:

Got to run for cover now...:ouch: :ouch:

Over and out

[Octane]

I've been flying with Garuda for years and think they're the best of the lot when it comes to Indonesian Airlines. Maybe others would have landed regardless?:E

[OverRun]

Leaving aside the jokes, I’ve got some work coming up at an airport with a shortened runway where this same sort of problem can be expected to occur (no prizes for guessing which continent).

I hadn’t given it much thought up until now but this thread has prompted me to look to other, more positive, ways of handling the problem. What about setting up one of the lighting towers, aimed up at aircraft on finals, and having the generator engine ticking over all night, with a worker ready to flick the switch on. At first I was thinking to be sarcastic and say the worker is probably redundant, since it would only need the safety officer (who is always listening out on the radio) to position himself close to the switch when certain airlines approach, but that is nonsense. Genuine mistakes happen and to respected operators. The safety officer and workers genuinely see well beforehand if an aircraft is going to land on them, and they can switch the lights on if it is looking too close. Wouldn’t want too many false alarms though.

[PK-KAR]

I am extremely disappointed to find out this serious incident happend.
I called a colleague at the NTSC and he didn't know if the ATSB has informed the NTSC of the incident or not.

If the pilot was not informed of the NOTAM, then this would not be the first time for Garuda (remember the missile testing in India last year?). The biggest concern is, what part of the "displaced threshold landing clearance" don't they understand?

I find it sad I had to ask a friend at PER airport to verify the incident.

We'll see how it's gonna go.

As good as Garuda's training goes, still need to find out how the heck this incident happened. It is rather disturbing that despite the best maintenance and training and working conditions amongst the airlines in the country, Garuda's incidents (and accidents) seem to have a higher proportion of human factor causality than the competitors...

PK-KAR

[segajet]

ECUREILIX...........I take your point about seasonal weather in India, but there is a big difference between the continuous bad weather conditions of the Indian monsoon, and a passing severe thunderstorm in SE Asia. The thunderstorms in the region rarely last more than 30 minutes, so why compromise safety by pressing on into known bad weather and windshear when a small delay means cavok. If you don't believe me compare the safety records of the airlines in the region, and you will soon see that although they all fly in similar weather environments, some have a markedly better safety record when it comes to weather related incidents.

[Rush2112]

^^^ In answer to your earlier post's question, while no expert on Indonesians, I did live there for four years and am married to one...

In general, and yes, generalisations are very dangerous, but there is usually some truth in them, it seems to be the case that if something has not happened previously to an Indonesian, they don't see that it could. Hence they cram 5 people on a motorcycle and weave through the traffic to see Granny on a Sunday (along with 10m others in Jakarta!). I watched a guy on a tower crane on a building site over Jl Sudirman clamber along the arm and start bashing a recalicitrant bit of machinery with a hammer, no apparant safety equipment other than hanging on manually. I have seen roadworkers swinging pickaxes and shovels while wearing flipflops. Amazing place.

As to why they are flying through thunderstorms, Indonesia is still largely a society where you do what your boss says.

[ZFT]

I have seen roadworkers swinging pickaxes and shovels while wearing flipflops


My staff also wear the same safety flipflops!!

[mingalababya]

Hence they cram 5 people on a motorcycle and weave through the traffic to see Granny on a Sunday (along with 10m others in Jakarta!). I watched a guy on a tower crane on a building site over Jl Sudirman clamber along the arm and start bashing a recalicitrant bit of machinery with a hammer, no apparant safety equipment other than hanging on manually. I have seen roadworkers swinging pickaxes and shovels while wearing flipflops. I think you've just described what happens in about half of all Asian countries I've lived in. ;)

.. anyway, back to this incident. The fact that they came in for another approach with a similar profile as the one before would suggest that the pilot was locked on to the ILS? If so, then this is more of a case of poor (or lack of) manual flying skills than just not reading or understanding the NOTAMs. Just my dua rupiah's worth.

[DX Wombat]

You mean they actually managed to line up with one of Perth's RUNWAYS instead of Horrie Miller Drive? That's progress.

[redsnail]

Why not use the same lighting as suggested here (http://www.****************/vhcv8yqfrnsu/cgi-bin/invision/index.php?showtopic=23869&st=15)

If the link doesn't work and I suspect it won't, the one with the red "NOT HERE" and the green "HERE" flashing lights.

I was right, it won't work.

[GS John]

Don't they have IOSA accreditation: http://www.iata.org/ps/certification/iosa/

[TyreCreep]

Well yes they do. Maybe it indicates the imperfect nature of auditing.

[Baccara Bar]

There are three parts of Asian Aviation which people do not undertsand.it was written in Time Magazine years ago.

One: Rapid expansion so quick promotion to command.

Two: The hierachal system where the Captain will never listen to a F/O or a F/E as he considers himself a God and thinks of himself above everyone else. The cockpit is teamwork and even thought the Captain has the final say, he should be listening to other crew members who point out a mistake. But a F/O will never point out the Captain's mistake as he will think this will kill off his career.

Three: The loss of face system where the Captain will never go-around when things look bad as he knows the F/O will tell everyone else.

This is not racist but many blogs I put on this website are always argued by Asian pilots who justify the idocy in this game by calling me as racist. I don't care whether you are blue, black, white or yellow but the standards in Asia have to be changed and courses on how to make the Asian pilots think laterally.

[Return to base]

Safety Flipflops??

I have seen then sat on the ground, no safety flip-flops but holding a piece of metal with their naked feet whilst using an angle grinder on the said piece of metal.
He obviously did not really require his toes and probably had enough children not to worry about an accident to his reproductive tackle :ugh:

I am currently having another house being built in Indonesia, I am refusing to watch the progress of it as I would probably have a heart attack. My Architect (wifes family) is watching over it, he is well used to their way of working and all the tricks they get up to if they are not watched.

Safety does not appear to be a top priority to an average Indonesian:{



rtb

[Jakarta Jock]

Octane with all due respect & IMHO Mandala is now probably better than Garuda when it comes to safety issues. These guys are doing a great job

[ZFT]

Is WB still running this shower?

[PK-KAR]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200802821.aspx
Happened at 9May08, 1602Local. PK-GEF/737-8CX (32363) Denpasar - Perth Gotta be GA726...

The threshold of runway 21 was displaced as per NOTAM and the information was broadcast on the ATIS but during short final, the crew of the Boeing 737-800 queried the presence of vehicles on the runway and commenced a missed approach after receiving the information from ATC. During the second approach the aircraft appeared to aim short and was instructed to go around but the aircraft levelled and landed past the displaced threshold.

The investigation is continuing.

Kalo baca dari si ATSB docket, it was already NOTAM-ed.
I fear there's something wrong in the way GA issued the NOTAM, and training regarding temporary displaced threshold.

Mandala better than GA? I dunno, fatigue is a higher risk at Mandala at the moment. But they relieved 1 Captain from flying status not too long ago for "refusing to adhere to the new culture of abiding by the SOP."

One: Rapid expansion so quick promotion to command.

Two: The hierachal system where the Captain will never listen to a F/O or a F/E as he considers himself a God and thinks of himself above everyone else. The cockpit is teamwork and even thought the Captain has the final say, he should be listening to other crew members who point out a mistake. But a F/O will never point out the Captain's mistake as he will think this will kill off his career.

Three: The loss of face system where the Captain will never go-around when things look bad as he knows the F/O will tell everyone else.
Then I wonder on at least 3 airlines (though not included GA), the chief, and DFO called the F/Os and asked "do you want these guys to join the company or not, since it'll be you guys flying under them if we take them in" when the company was considering taking in a few captains from "a former airline with dodgy crew training reputation".

A friend in Garuda on the left seat have 1 pet hate... "first officers who just obey orders and are reluctant to challenge the captain outside the simulator"... He says, "I don't want to fly with these guys!"

After the GA200 case in JOG, we can see why he doesn't want to fly with "those types" of F/O...

PK-KAR

[arba]

we can see why he doesn't want to fly with "those types" of F/O...

if you fly correctly, there should be no problem with "those type of F/O"

[Swiss Cheese]

Perhaps we should all get a glimpse of the IOSA Audit Report?

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Nominations for the one eyed man?!