BBMF ~ 617 flypast, tomorrow 16 May 08.

[Al R]

Looking forward to some cracking shots from the usual suspects. It should be a great day and humbling too, especially when you remember what the boys achieved that night. And lets not forget either - the men who took part in the raid still haven't had the long hard slog that this action was a part of, recognised with something as routine as a campaign medal. All the best to the Flight for tomorrow, there will be a few flypasts (with fighters past and present) and I think I heard mention, the DC3 too.

Edit:

http://www.bbmf.co.uk/news.html

Commemoration of 65th Anniversary of Dambusters Raid

http://www.bbmf.co.uk/images/news080801_t.jpg (http://www.bbmf.co.uk/images/news080801.jpg)

The Flight will be privileged to help commemorate the 65 Anniversary of the Dambuster Raids. The event will take place on 16 May 2008, starting at 1000hrs with a short service lead by Reverend Sqn Ldr John Ellis. This will be followed by a flypast of the Lancaster, Tornadoes of 617 Sqn, Hurricane Spitfire and Dakota. This event is by ticket only on advice from the Emergency Services. There will be no vehicular access to Derwent Dam or the Derwent Valley north of the A57. Police will enforce strict parking controls on the A57 and surrounding roads.

The reason for limiting access is purely related to public safety and the number of car park passes being issued is directly related to the number of vehicles which can be safely accommodated in the valley without impeding access for Ambulances or other Emergency Vehicles. Anyone who arrives by public transport and is prepared to walk in to the valley on foot is welcome to do so.

The Lancaster will take the following route on the 16 May 08, depart RAF Coningsby 0940 , towards Middle Trent Power station, North Rotherham towards the wind farm at Spicer Hill will then approach the dam from the North complete three passes over the dam wall and then continue down the valley over Bamford Church Tower continuing on towards Chatswoth House and then East towards Scampton, allowing a number of other opportunities to view the aircraft.

[NutLoose]

:{Never got a ticket ..... took the day off too :ouch:

[Al R]

Get them walking boots out!

There was a good piece on BBC News earlier, and it'll be live from the Dam within the next hour. I wonder if News 24 will broadcast from there later today too.

[Al R]

On in 10 minutes or so if anyone's near a telly. :)

[Roland Pulfrew]

Pretty good coverage on BBC News 24

[spannersatKL]

Damn (Dam!!) just caught the end of it!!!

[Studefather]

Nice Lancaster/Dakota pair and Dakota/Spitfire/Hurricane circuits around Lincoln Cathedral about 10:30.

[Al R]

Brilliant to see, I'd have loved to have been there. And well done BBMF too. :D

And without labouring the point.. the Bevan Boys were rightly remembered, as were the Land Girls. Why not the Bomberboys??? Those lads didn't have the luxury of 65 years of languid navel gazing or ideological hill climbing - they just got on with the job and 55,000+ of them died as a result.

Their efforts need remembering with a Campaign Medal. The oversight is a disgrace.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=296590

[green granite]

I'd have been even more impressed if they'd done it over the Mohne dam. :E

[Jackonicko]

Bomber Command aircrew already have a campaign medal - the Air Crew Europe star or the France and Germany star.

The Air Crew Europe Star was was awarded to Commonwealth aircrew who participated in operational flights over Europe, from UK bases.

Two months operational flying was required between 3 September 1939 and 5 June 1945 in order to qualify. The 1939-1945 Star must have been earned before commencing qualifying service for the Air Crew Europe Star. From 6 June 1944 (D-Day), operational flying over Europe qualified aircrew for the France and Germany Star.

British uniform regulations stipulated that neither the Atlantic Star nor the France and Germany Star would be awarded to a recipient of the Air Crew Europe Star. Subsequent entitlement to the Atlantic Star or the France and Germany Star was denoted by the award of the appropriate clasp to the Air Crew Europe Star.

Any specific Bomber Command medal would be a slap in the face to the aircrew of Coastal, Fighter and Transport Command, whose sacrifice and courage was no less than that of their Bomber Command comrades. It would be unfair and divisive, and is unnecessary.

Bomber Command's 55,000 losses and its sacrifices and achievements are rightly acknowledged and recognised, and have been widely written about, featured in TV and film documentary and drama, and are widely known.

The same cannot be said of wartime Coastal Command, for example.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/ACEStarobv.png

[Green Flash]

I'd have been even more impressed if they'd done it over the Mohne dam
In the late 80's the BAE Mossie was at EDUO. The route home was via Oostend. Wonder why they went VFR low level southbounds then? .....:E

[Al R]

I accept your perspective Jacko. But there are huge differences in reality, and this is about repaying a debt and not just offsetting or comparing one set of sacrifices against another, although I'm sure the bomber boys would be first to shrug off suggestions for unwarranted attention. Its true that no medal was awarded for the Battle of Britain either – but wasn’t there a clasp? And even there, we find injustice. If you were shot down on 1st Nov or on the 9th of July, whilst flying your Spitfire against Dorniers over Kent, then you weren’t fighting and dying in the Battle of Britain! lets face it, this lack of recognition was due to political sensitivity, and its that which needs to be addressed - no one is suggesting the efforts of the Coastal Command lads were anything other than heroic, but Bomber Command lost 55,500 men - the sacrifice is just mind mumbing. And its that which is being remembered, not the individual actions, the efforts or the merits of one Command against another.

I know that many veterans would probably not give a flying fig about the gong, but if we can remember the Bevan Boys and the Land Girls for their specific endeavours, and (I know this isn’t a p#ssing contest) if many thousands more died in their bombers than they ever did in their Spitfires, then we surely should extend to them this minor almost token gesture? Its not too much to ask for, surely, and I have yet to hear of anyone who would begrudge them it. Lets not get egalitarian (sp?!) and say that because some haven't got a medal, none should get it. Lets award it on merit, and god knows, the bomber boys earned it.

Lie in the dark and listen.
It's clear tonight so they're flying high,
Hundreds of them, thousands perhaps,
Riding the icy, moonlit sky.
Men, machinery, bombs and maps,
Altimeters and guns and charts,
Coffee, sandwiches, fleece-lined boots,
Bones and muscles and minds and hearts,
English saplings with English roots
Deep in the earth they've left below.
Lie in the dark and let them go;
Theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen.

Lie in the dark and listen.
They're going over in waves and waves,
High above villages, hills and streams,
Country churches and little graves
And little citizen's worried dreams;
Very soon they'll have reached the sea.
And far below them will lie the bays
And cliffs and sands where they used to be.
Taken for summer holidays.
Lie in the dark and let them go.
Deep in the earth they've left below.
Lie in the dark and let them go;
Theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen.

City magnates and steel contractors,
Factory workers and politicians.
Soft hysterical little actors,
Ballet dancers, reserved musicians,
Safe in your warm civilian beds.
Count your profits and count your sheep,
Life is passing above your heads,
Just turn over and try to sleep.
Lie in the dark and let them go;
There's one debt you'll forever owe,
Deep in the earth they've left below.
Lie in the dark and let them go;
Theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen.

Nöel Coward

[TMJ]

'Twas on Sky News for most of the time I popped into the coffee shop here...

[Jackonicko]

Al,

The point is that Air Crew Europe is effectively the Bomber Command campaign medal - but one which includes relatively small numbers of RAF aircrew who also participated in the air campaign against the Reich.

And the other Commands are no less worthy than Bomber Command, and no less deserving of recognition than the Bomber Boys (though they have received much less).

If you really, really must have some bauble unique to No.s 1, 2 (presumably they count?), 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 Groups (and 100, I guess) then give them a clasp or a rosette or a badge like the Arctic emblem.

Differentiating Bomber Command from all others by issuing a separate medal raises their contribution above that of all other Commands, which is divisive, unjust and unfair.

[Gingerbread Man]

I made the excruciating trip up to Bamford to see it. Driving that road is akin to self-harm.

Worth every burst vein though - cracking sight to see. Can I thank the crews involved (if they read here) for a great display and the Police in attendance that had to deal with the stupidity of the general public. Hats off to all.

Cheers

Ginger ;)

[Linedog]

On video, here................

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7404052.stm

Enjoy.

[exscribbler]

Great TV coverage, well done, BBC! :ok:

BZ also to Danny Savage and others for falling silent so we could turn up the volume and revel in the sound of those lovely Merlins! :ok::ok:

Mrs Ex even silenced her Dyson in sympathy. :ok::ok::ok:

[NRU74]

Driving that road is akin to self-harm.
Ginger
We maintain it like that to try to keep the riff-raff out of the Hope Valley.
Good display though - if I'd known you were there you could have bought me a pint in the Angler's Rest

[exscribbler]

Is the Yorkshire Bridge just for the tourists, then? :E

I spent the best years of my life in Sheffield and its environs, spending most of my grant in the Hope Valley pubs; now I'm classed as a tourist and bl**dy riff-raff from the PDRoSY. :=

[RICKO]

Afternoon.

Here are a few shots from today's events.
Taken from down near the dam.

Richard.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/RickoRB/Lancf.jpg?t=1210947777

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/RickoRB/Lance.jpg?t=1210948091

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/RickoRB/Lancd.jpg?t=1210948125

[Al R]

Fantastic. :D

Those engines must have sounded awesome, reverbing off the hill.

[RICKO]

Yes, fantastic sound.

Richard.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/RickoRB/Lancg.jpg?t=1210949135

[Ivor Fynn]

RICKO,

Beautifull photos.

Ivor:D:D:D

[Cherskiy]

A couple of shots from a higher perspective than Richard's - some great shots there, Ricko!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/cherskiy/IMG_2411-warplane.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/cherskiy/IMG_2475-warplane.jpg

The Lancaster looked impressive in the daytime - I couldn't imagine flying at 60 feet at night around there in one, though.

Lest we forget.

Graeme

[The Helpful Stacker]

http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=y61q2s&outx=800&quality=70

[exscribbler]

I can imagine flying at 60 feet at night - but I wouldn't want to.

They were gallant, brave and steadfast young men all and first among them the incomparable Gibson - a Wing Commander DSO*, DFC* at age 24 and then a VC.

Barnes Wallis said of him, "For some men of great courage and adventure, inactivity was a slow death. Would a man like Gibson ever have adjusted back to peacetime life? One can imagine it would have been a somewhat empty existence after all he had been through. Facing death had become his drug. He had seen countless friends and comrades perish in the great crusade. Perhaps something in him even welcomed the inevitability he had always felt that before the war ended he would join them in their Bomber Command Valhalla. He had pushed his luck beyond all limits and he knew it. But that was the kind of man he was…a man of great courage, inspiration and leadership. A man born for war…but born to fall in war."

Harris described him thus: "As great a warrior as this island ever produced."

Will we see their like again? I hope so.

[Rocket Chucker]

Here's a quick news clip from ITV News on the front end of yahoo:

Here (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080516/video/vuk-bomber-marks-dambusters-date-49bfa63.html)

Hope it works.

Excellent photographs guys!

Per Ardua.

[Old Ned]

The campaign for a Bomber Command medal continues, but it is worth mentioning that the President of the Bomber Command Association, MRAF Sir Michael Beetham, prefers, and is working tirelessly for, a permanent memorial in a prominent location in London.

Sir Michael was a pilot on 50 Sqn during the war, was awarded the DFC, completed 10 bombing missions over Berlin and took part in the notorious Nuremberg raid when Bomber Command suffered its heaviest losses of the entire war.

Sir Michael IS the voice of wartime Bomber Command and will doubtless get his way. This brave and gallant airman is also the President of the 50 and 61 Sqns' Association and is still amazingly active at the age of 85.

Sir Michael will attend the annual 50 and 61 Sqns' reunion dinner on 7 Jun in Lincoln, with 3 surviving members of his wartime Lancaster crew. We are privileged to have them.

Pip pip ON

[Smoketoomuch]

The actor Richard Todd [who played Gibson in the film] was interviewed this aft on BBC R5, he sounds barely half his 88 years. He was full of praise and admiration for those that took part in the raid, and spoke of his regret that he had never actually met any of them, 'I was elsewhere' he said dismissively.

Minutes after the interview ended the studio was receiving numerous messages explaining just where 'elsewhere' was. The consensus being that Todd was probably training for his forthcoming drop by parachute into occupied France, as later portrayed in the film The Longest Day.

[Jackonicko]

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKHc-U2FNHk

[Beatriz Fontana]

Top piccies one and all.

I can't think of any place better in the world to have been today.

:D:D:D:D

[Fortyodd2]

I was fortunate to be in the Derwent Valley today. Truly a wonderful experience and a privilege. BBMF and 617, a very big thank you from me and Mrs Fortyodd2.:D:D:D:D:D

P.S. Ricko ~ did you have to duck?? :)



P.P.S. Was there any particular reason that the Sky News Heli felt it necessary to drown out the Last Post, Silence and Reveille? :mad:

[Cherskiy]

The BBC News helo pilot had the right idea as he landed away up in a clearing on one of the hills before the event started, thus was free to take off shortly before the Lancaster arrived without spoiling the event through noise.

The Sky News helo pilot had already been told to make himself scarce for 10 minutes when the service started at 10am as he was making a fair bit of noise at that time (from my position on the slopes of Abbey Banks the helo was drowning out what seemed to be a band at the time). Bad form.

[Globemeister]

Who flew the Lanc today? It looked amazing.

[Al R]

Some BBC footage from today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7404554.stm

[Jackonicko]

Old Ned,

I think that Sir Michael has the right idea. A permanent memorial would be more worthwhile, and Fighter Command already have one. Perhaps Coastal should have one (at Aldergrove, St Eval, or Leuchars, perhaps?) too.

[Polikarpov]

The BBC seem to have done pretty well with this event, they're hosting this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7405514.stm) great video shot from the bomb aimer's position.

:ok:

[Al R]

Jacko,

The memory of Bomber Command has been served well this past month - the Vulcan and 617, and the time is perfect to give things a little push. I don't think the time will ever be as right as it is at the moment, public opinion would seem to be with the campaign (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1581263/John-Nichol-backs-Bomber-Command-memorial.html) and it seems to be establishing critical mass. Robin Gibb was on the BBC last week, breathing life into thing again and it can only be a matter of time. I agree too that Coastal Command, in fact all of 'em, should have their own proper memorials. Bomber Command, if it were to have anything, should have somewhere spiritual and somewhere more earthy too. Flamborough Head (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamborough_Head) would offer a superb location, be slightly closer to the heart of things (as well as being less London-centric, but thats not the main issue..) and would also be in keeping with the ethereal feel of Capel le Ferne (http://www.battleofbritainmemorial.org/about-us/).

On a more practical note, the Bomber Command Heritage RAF Bicester (http://www.bc-heritage.org/bicester/) (Bisto!) campaign cruises on. This is the ideal opportunity to preserve something tangible for the future (I wonder what apathy the person who fought to save HMS Victory had to endure?) and yet all the MoD seems to be doing, is allowing the place to rot away so that it can sell it off with a clean beaurocratic conscience. It is the ideal, the perfect location for many educational/youth/veteran etc activities and would offer the Bomber Command legacy an enduring and practical outlet. Another member here (bc heritage) and involved with that campaign from the outset summed it up:

However, a suitable place should not be tainted by facts like geographical location, special ops, largest amount of ordinance dropped by Sqdns, biggest aircraft, or biggest runways. It is about future generations remembering those of the Command in the best possible environment, when we ourselves are no longer on this Earth.

RAF Bicester offers all that, and more. I am looking forward to meeting up with them there, a week tomorrow. And although I can't speak for Tony and the guys, I am sure that they would be more than welcome to get the message across to as many as possible.. including those who have the practical means to give things a shove. ;)

Edit: Shamelessly nicked from The Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00671/dambusters-reservoi_671609n.jpg

[Beatriz Fontana]

Al R,

I'll be at Flamborough Head later in the week. It's a nice thought to put the memorial up there. The headland is also home to a memorial to one John Paul Jones (that's US Navy, not the singer) and one of the worse access roads in the country! It's a bit of a bleak place at the best of times and I can't see much traffic getting out there.

Problem is, of course, the memorial would never be in the right place! Someone would always have a better and more historical claim to it.

[Al R]

Cool, take some shots! I'd love to see what its like now. Probably pretty much the same as its been for decades. lol

I imagine Flamborough being spiritual in that just as the fighter pilot looks out to sea at Capel, then so too did many crews leave these shores at that point, never to return. I concede 100% the issue of being hard to get to, thats a crying shame and its the only downer with the idea. I suppose that wherever we are, we will remember them though, and that as time continues it will become more about what it represents, not how it can directly benefit 'us' in the here and now. That goes well for the idea of putting a memorial in London too, although it seems to me, to be rather obvious.

Bicester is a great chance to centralise everything that Bomber Command stood for. It has the potential to be not only somewhere for remembrance, a Summer camp/ Learning Centre for Space Cadets, somewhere that is a Halfway House for servicemen leaving the RAF, somewhere that RAF Service charities could be located, somewhere central for Rehab and Resettlement, somewhere for just about anything which Bomber Command stood and fought for. That to me, is the practical side of how we can and must remember them.. not with 'just' a memorial, but something far more tangible and far reaching, something set into trust that will be here in 200 years time.

Nigel Rogoff set off earlier this week from Greenwich. The irony is that it is where Nelson set aside buidlings for Petty Officers and Ratings to be used in times of their need. I took this shot the other week (the place is breathtaking).. and remembered too are those who came here to fight alonside us. Bicester could become the RAF equiv of that - somewhere that we nurture those who follow us tomorrow and where we can take care of those who were here yesterday.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/cott036-1.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/cott028-1.jpg

[Mike7777777]

Excellent photos, thanks. I was on the tops after a brisk walk over from Strines; the helicopters are a nonsense, they've spoilt previous Lanc flypasts at other locations. All 'planes very impressive, more speed, noise and reheat required from the Tornados next time please.

[capewrath]

Hi folks,

Yesterday's flight videoed from the Lanc.

Appologies if someone else has posted the link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7405514.stm

Cheers

[Flight Detent]

Really looked good, though we only got approximately 10 seconds of air-to-air shot with local voice.

It was on our 9 News here in Brisbane at 1800 local (0800Z) on Sat 17th.

What an unexpectedly brilliant shot of the aircraft, really took me back, my father, and his two brothers flew Lancasters in the Aussie Squadrons in WWII.

Fantastic !!

FD...:D

[Dan Gerous]

I felt privelaged to be watching the events at Derwent Water yesterday. Along with many others, I was up the hill on the East side of the dam, hoping to get some good pics, and I wasn't dissapointed. A big thank you to everyone involved in organising this event. :ok:

First view of the Lancaster, as it comes round the bend from Howden
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Derwent04.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Derwent07.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Derwent05.jpg

Before the flying started, the BBC helicopter did several runs on the dam, and we thought they were getting some footage to splice into the news footage later. On arriving home and watching the news, it transpired that on board the helicopter was Sqn Ldr Les Munro, giving an interview. A few pics of that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Derwent01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Derwent02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Derwent03.jpg

Finally, a picture of Richard Todd's helicopter in front of the dam wall, departing after the event.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Derwent14.jpg

[foldingwings]

Why, oh Why did the BBC Newscaster on the 1800 hrs national news yesterday have to refer to the squadron as "six seventeen" (617)? I thought that they had researchers to sort that sort of thing out:ugh:! Ruined an otherwise faultless coverage of the event!

[dh108]

That Noel Coward poem has a real sting to it, he even sticks it to those in his own profession.

"City magnates and steel contractors,
Factory workers and politicians.
Soft hysterical little actors,
Ballet dancers, reserved musicians,
Safe in your warm civilian beds.
Count your profits and count your sheep,"

I've never read this before. I need to rethink my clichéd view of Coward.

Being no kind of expert, I was surprised how spritely the Lanc looked on the news footage, particularly some air-to-air shots from above. I've seen it a few times for real, moving in the kind of stately manner I'd expect. But the pilot really seemed to be throwing it about (releatively speaking, I mean) on the Derwent run.

Were Lancs noted for their manoeuvrability when they were current?

[Trumpet_trousers]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/trumpet_trousers/Steenbergen.jpg

[exscribbler]

Thanks for that, TT. I've never been to Steenbergen - but one day...

[Old Ned]

Jackonicko,

VMT for your support. Will tell Sir Michael during the 50/61 Sqns' reunion dinner that PPruners are behind his quest for a permanent memorial.

Trumpet-trousers,

Also VMT for the pic of GG's headstone. What a man! VC, DSO* and DFC* tragically killed aged only 26!

Pip pip ON

[snapper1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1OuyIe0pig

[Green Flash]

I've just looked at a map of Steenbergen. Lancasterstraat, Warwickstraat, Gibsonstraat, Mosquitostraat, Dambusterstraat. Britain obviously means something to them and I'm not sure we deserve such mates like the Cloggies. Welbedankt, Nederlands.:ok:

[Trumpet_trousers]

Lancasterstraat, Warwickstraat, Gibsonstraat, Mosquitostraat, Dambusterstraat
For those that have never been there, all these streets are to be found within a small, light industrial estate in Steenbergen where Gibson's Mosquito crashed - at the time it was open fields/farmland

[radicalrabit]

We live 9 miles away but my mum was denied access to the dam Despite being ex WAAF and in a wheel chair , because they closed the road to most of the general public. She wasnt the only one of the age group who actually fought the war and suported the operations, But It was deemed more important that councillors and other "dignitories" were given access. They wouldnt even let us drive her up drop her off and collect her later . Shameful .......