Pro's and Con's of each Cadetship

[startingout]

Hi all,

I have a hard pressed decision to make and really would like some help with being able to expand my knowledge on this topic. I understand that my outlook is shallow with no expansion but i have my reasons. Firstly i am a 42hr GFPT pilot with outlook forCPL subjects sometime soon ie next month time. I am looking at both the Qantas and Sharp Airlines Cadetships alone as these are the most practical etc etc....

just so you know im not a troll aswell just wanting to know some information on the two.

The thing is that i am struggling to find the major rift between the two. More or less without being rude what is my outlook from the two. Through friends who have been/are on the sharp course i understand that you recieve around 500hrs usually higher during the entire 18/16 and soon 12 month course, through training then thier metros and also charter work. With the outlook for REX or Qantas link directly after. As for the qantas course (I have an interview coming up end of the month for the Associate degree with GFS/Swinburne) you are given the 18 months training, instead of metro endo given King air, then sent out into the world for CIPP, usually with a regional airline subsidiary of Qantas link for two years at a minimum (have heard that you might be bonded on the Q4's). And then after that you have a number of hours 1/2'd through co-pilot position and the outlook to go onto qantas or another similar airline.

Also is there a best link for interview preperation on pprune? the search function is not really brining up much for me and starting to stress about some of it.

Forgive me if i am wrong with the above this is just an assumption of it all. would i please be able to be corrected if anything is out of order.

Regards,
SO :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

If you've got the goods, Qantas is the only one worth considering, it provides a structured career path!:ok:

Even that will be compromised though if cadets, lose their seniority!:rolleyes:

[startingout]

Thanks for that H. Hughes,

Are you able to expand on the reasons at all? i just seem to find that everone says that the QF course is the best but never any reason. just like the ford holden debate but with courses. It just struck me that there really was never any reviews from any of the QF cadets on how they went it just seems to be a void from acceptance to them flying for a given airline.

[WarmNuts]

I have an offer for an interview for the assoc degree next month as well ... slightly off topic but has anyone been through the process and what exactly does the skills assessment test involve other than what is described on the website... i understand the panel interview is still all behavourial.

[Howard Hughes]

I have sent you a PM startingout.

[Mr. Hat]

I've said it before. Given my experience:

1. Qantas is the only cadetship.
2. If you do not get into the above then forget all the others.
3. Do not waste time trying to pretty up your CV with degrees flashy colleges as none of it matters one bit when it comes to getting a jet job.

Just get the licence and get going if the cadetship doesn't work. Within a year you will be able to apply for direct entry.

Don't waste time and money. Good luck.

[startingout]

HH, Thanks for the advice, have sent a reply back so check your PM's.


Warmnuts, Did you also get the call from chelsea this week? i had it 3 days ago, interview all booked etc now

Thanks also Mr. Hat. Would love to hear others opinions on it all and also the skills test, is it still the wombat testing thing or is it like an aero MK sim where they test basic if?

[HF3000]

Qantas recruitment love tertiary education. Doesn't really matter what subject, but a degree is gold, whether it be for cadetship or direct entry. Believe it. Other airlines... don't know.

[startingout]

I have first year university already, how do they find having diplomas though? or just anything is better then nothing? Have interview on monday any tips with it all? just dont bull---- them etc?

SO :ok:

[Mr. Hat]

Rubbish, a degree doesn't make a lick of difference.

All that matters is that you have the minimum requirements and fit the psych profile.

[mr.tos]

Ever considered the Jetflite cadetship? I think it's a similar setup to Sharp.

http://www.jetflite.com.au/?pid=courses

[Keg]

Pros and Cons of each cadetship?

Qantas Cadetship
Pro- it's Qantas which means the best terms and conditions in the country

Everyone else.
Con- it's not the Qantas cadetship which means terms and conditions which are sub par.

[startingout]

i have my reasons, yes have looked at it, but not wanting it, i have just narrowed down to these two.

So really nothing beats the outcome of the Qantas course? where did/do most people go after thier initial training?

[Keg]

Air North, J* Asia (and the A320) and I believe now QFLink on the Dash. Not 100% sure on that last one though. I'm also not 100% sure but I flew with someone an ex cadet a while back and I thought he may have come from Skippers.

[Big Barrels]

QF may have the best terms and conditions in the country in some respects, but starting out you will actually get paid more in another airline as it currently stands. Getting out and having some time on regionals will probably be enough to land a job with JQ or VB.

Both JQ and VB have very short times to command. Compared with 14 to 18 years in QF. JQ and VB are very quickly catching up to QF pay rates, so for the 1st year or two you will be about the same in whichever airline, but after a couple of years, you will be getting more as a Captain elsewhere while you still remain a second officer with Qantas.

After about 10 years in QF, you may be able to get an F/O slot on a type which pays as much as a Captain in other airlines, but this is set to change in the coming years. After 20 years in QF, you will be on a higher salary than some other airline Captains, but it will take many years to make up the money you lost waiting to get there.

Whichever way you go, it is a good time to be getting into it. However, the QF cadetship is not the be all and end all - don't pass up another opportunity hoping for QF on the belief you will be so much better off.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"JQ and VB are very quickly catching up to QF pay rates"

With respect Big Barrels, JQ especially have some way to go before that!

[Keg]

Both JQ and VB have very short times to command. Compared with 14 to 18 years in QF.

QF running at 13 years and scheduled to drop lower than that over the couple of years. I suspect that ten will be the norm over the next few years depending on hard this credit crunch hits the world.

JQ and VB are very quickly catching up to QF pay rates, so for the 1st year or two you will be about the same in whichever airline, but after a couple of years, you will be getting more as a Captain elsewhere while you still remain a second officer with Qantas.

That's inaccurate. What is DJ to command at the moment? Five years unless you go to the jungle jet? You can be a F/O in QF in under that time and you're probably going to earn almost as much as the skipper on the other airline- more than a jungle jet captain. Additionally, I'd suggest that after 18 months, the average S/O in QF is earning more than an F/O in either of the other two airlines (A380/744 anyway!). As a mid level seniority 767 F/O- achieved in four years- I earned about as much as a DJ skipper and more than a J* skipper (in equivalent dollars considering that J* wasn't around in 2001). As a 744 F/O- about eight or nine years seniority at the moment- you can earn more again.....more than a V Australia 777 Captain if the reports on their pay and conditions are to be believed! :eek:

Given that most QF commands pay at least $30K more than the equivalent commands in J* and DJ and most QF wide body F/Os earn almost the same as DJ and J* captains then it won't take long to make up any difference- if it actually exists- from a delayed promotion at QF. Keep in mind too that the music will stop- or at least slow somewhat- at both DJ and J* in a few years time. I'd know which airline I'd prefer to be in when that happens- no matter what rank I was at the time.

[Muff Hunter]

QF cadet course or go through GA.....

If you want to be and S/O for a long time, definately QF, if you don't like the fact you won't get to do much flying, GA is the way to go.

2 years in GA now will see you with enough hours to fly for a regional and then shortly after a jet job......

One thing I believe is lost with Gen Y, is they are in such a hurry to fly a jet, I fear they will miss out of the fantastic life experience GA can provide.

GA not only teaches about making real command decisions on a daily basis, but you learn about many other aspects of aviaition.

Also the friendships forged in GA can and do last a lifetime, and you never know, one day you may be out of work and we all now what a small industry it is and having many mates can be worth gold........look at the ex AN guys...all scratching each others backs at JQ

[Big Barrels]

How much difference is there now between a QF and VB 737 F/O in terms of pay? About $10 grand.

What was the most junior S/O to be promoted to F/O in the last round of QF allocations (currently undergoing training)? About 6 years in the company.

What was the most junior command allocated? About 12 years plus? Given that aviation is in the late stages of a great boom, 12 years is certainly something fantastic. This year will be lower with the Perth base, but expect the slowdown to eventuate, and before you know it back to 18 years.

How much does a VB or JQ captain get potentially now (the new JQ EBA gets them up more relatively than our 3% does). How much for a 737 or 767 F/O in QF in comparison?

All I wish to highlight is that being a QF cadet in aviation is not the be all and end all. There are other ways and methods, take the first opportunity that arises.

[Mr. Hat]

737 VB crews have certainly narrowed the gap on their full service collegues.

I certainly get the feeling that on the 73 the difference isn't what it used to be.

There is no comparison on salary and conditions with qantas for any other jet job in australia.

[Keg]

So let me understand this correctly BB. If given a choice between (say) QF cadetship and REX, skippers, etc you wouldn't choose QF?

[startingout]

so realistically overall even though you save 30k doing sharp, you are still better with qantas? even though you are not contracted to work for them afterwards? or is the placement guaranteed?

SO:ok:

[Mr. Hat]

Starting out,

Sharp and Rex? Do yourself a favour and forget about these options.

If you can get your bum on a seat at QF the 30k will be last thing on your mind.

There really isn't a comparison mate.

If fuel keeps going up or there is a downturn where do you want to be?

[startingout]

realistically wanting to be in the safest position possible, but saying that i know there is the "easy" way to get there, but saying that how much fight really happens when it comes to the placement is it first come first serve or do they address it as you go through training those who learn faster get the better jobs? or is there just a partially random system to it all?

SO:ok:

[Shadowfromthesky]

startingout, you say that you have the interview on monday for the assoc deg cadetship. I am keen on the cadetship as well although, when i look at the selection schedule in the QF website it hasn't been updated for application this year, just wondering when did you submit your application!?

Shadow. :)

[startingout]

submitted last year, sat the psych test then thats all i did, after that just got a call randomly saying are you interested....

[HF3000]

How much difference is there now between a QF and VB 737 F/O in terms of pay? About $10 grand.I'd like to see a VB F/O tell me he's getting within $10 grand of QF F/O B737 salary of $140K including allowances and excluding super.

B737 F/Os in QF will be earning increases in excess of 5% over the next few years under the current EBA as they progress from 59% CPT pay to 65% CPT pay under the new EBA.

What are DJ B737 F/Os earning again?

And what are DJ B737 CPTs earning compared to the mid-to-high $200K range at QF?

And JQ A320 CPTs?

[Mr. Hat]

HF,

I have mates in VB that do clear quite large sums of money every month.

Its not hard for these guys to do 120-140k p.a. without super. They do significantly better than the A320 guys at J*.

The point i think was that the gap has narrowed from when they started.

Can anyone recall what the salary was way back when?

[bin b'archin]

The con of doing a cadetship is you do not have squat experience. The pro is you get to jump straight into a big shiny plane and ride it high in the sky above all us GA scum.

[Big Barrels]

Keg, read what I said. Don't knock back an opportunity in the hope of getting through the QF cadetship. If offered them all on the same day, sure, everyone would take the QF. If not, and you go down another route, it isn't the be all and end all. You just may still have a very rewarding career.

How dare anybody be so bold as to think you could end up just as well off in aviation by not doing the QF Cadetship.

Over and out.

[mcgrath50]

Probably a harder question to answer is, a QF Cadetship or a ADFA/RAAF Pilot entry?

[ga_trojan]

Qantas Cadetship
Pro- it's Qantas which means the best terms and conditions in the country

Yeah assuming that you don't get screwed over and end up in Jetstar where you are the cheapest jet labour in the country. Are the Cadetships on offer "Qantas" or "Qantas Group". Make sure you read the fine print!!

[startingout]

Thanks guys didnt get through to the next stage with qantas, but got some great answers :ok:

[Mr. Hat]

starting out, sorry to hear that mate. A lot of very good people have missed out over the years its just one of those things. Keep your chin up keep going and reapply later.

[Pilotette]

Since qantas didn't work out I'd say Sharp is a pretty good choice..I know a few guys that have done it and i'd like to be in their positions right now..
good luck

[startingout]

Thanks for the helping words

SO :ok:

[student87]

Hey Mr. Hat,

What is the psych profile?

[Mr. Hat]

87,

It's the bit at the end where you have to answer about 200 questions (multichoice). The first section is about motivation at work. They give a series of statements and ask you if it decreses or increases your motivation to work. The second bit has random sentences (4 i think) and they ask which is most or least like you.

Word on the street is that they profiled their most successfull captains and thats the benchmark that you are measured on. I.e. if your personality matches theirs you are more likely to get through. I have a mate that says its the one thing that will rule you out. Either way you can't study for it and their is no point in telling fibs as they have checks in there to see if you are being honest.

Good Luck.

[Kelly Slater]

Below are three examples of what a Cadetship really is. In any other industry a cadet is paid whilst studying, works for the company during holidays and is guaranteed employment at the completion of training.

In aviation, a cadet pays a company far more than the going rate to train them and then gets to work for that company.




Accountantcy cadetship

A cadetship involves paid employment at the same time you're studying your business/commerce degree. Cadetships are offered by a range of Chartered Accountant organisations including the Big 4 and public practice firms.



DSE Cadetship Program

How about being paid to study science - and then be guaranteed a job. A rare opportunity?

Yes indeed. The DSE Cadetship Program offers VCE students and first year science students cadetships to study an approved science degree at a Victorian university, plus employment with the department on completion of your degree.



Could a cadetship with Country Energy be for you?

Our cadetship program allows you to study Electrical Engineering (Power) full time at university whilst working with one of Australia's leading distributors.
What are the benefits and conditions?
Permanent employment at Country Energy.
Attendance at university on a full time basis.
Payment of Student Contribution Amount (previously HECS).
Reimbursement for compulsory university textbooks.
Practical experience in the workplace during university breaks.

Airlines in Australia do not offer cadetships.

[Davo161]

I trained/worked for Sharps for 3.5 years.
Great people. Excellent aircraft. Great fun, extensive training program with many internal job opportunities. Many more opportunities through old company connections who are all more than willing to have a good chat...
Expanding routes - only had Cheiftains when I was there - now with Metros.
Nice airport to train at - usually quiet, and not far from the busy places.

I'd more than recommend Sharp Airlines if you were looking for an initial GA career with airline experience getting you a fair way quickly.

[sthaussiepilot]

mcgrath50Probably a harder question to answer is, a QF Cadetship or a ADFA/RAAF Pilot entry?


RAAF!

Much Much Much More Secure, you can pretty well get a job anywhere after the RAAF (provided your qualified for it)

Its a long time to give up for the RAAF, but your flying, your serving your country, and you have great benefits...

:ok:

Ask any RAAF Pilot and they'll tell you

[KRUSTY 34]

Do they offer (Sharps that is) real Multi-IFR Command. ie: Left seat on A/C < 5700kg, before or even after 2 crew ops.

Genuine question.

[startingout]

krusty,

to the vast number of people attending the course, no you do not get any command twin IFR time. unless you are one of the ones based in YPOD and have a charter which happens seldom compared to the times that are flown on the metro.
:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks starting out.

Quote:

"I'd more than recommend Sharp Airlines if you were looking for an initial GA career with airline experience getting you a fair way quickly."

Davo161, Why? Considering it doesn't offer any M/E IFR Command.

[Davo161]

In my time there, WITHOUT Metros the company was continually expanding towards its current volume of travel. This meant many MECIFR chtr, which I logged over 250 hours including 2 pilot ops (as captain).

You're most correct - from what I've heard - that the metros have taken over most of the flying, and there would not be as much for the students to get thier hands on...
Guess I went on the "Good old days" when I answered that question! :O
My bad...!

Still I would recommend them though!

___
P.S: There were only 3 people in my 'class' with one more joining later for IFR, so we had a lot more opportunity also...