MAPA [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

PILOST

4th Jan 2001, 10:15

And a merry X'mas to you too Wooby!My,My, aren't you a cranky one today?My only guess would be that your Hol's weren't great....

As for the no reply in your subject,have you put any thoughts in it?Whether we like it or not,it's the only avenue for us to represent ourselves (the pilots) to the management.Are we better off on contracts?You must be kidding right W?MAS management has consistently shown their incompetencies by shoving different pay packages to any non permanent pilots employed by them.This includes Malaysians W!Even the other contract staff are getting shoved up their posterior for accepting those terms.BTW,are you a member?If not,I guess you are just stirring schitte.

Till then safe flying!
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

ps btw Woooby I'm not the John you're looking for...as I'm still just dreaming of driving a Merc someday....

[This message has been edited by PILOST (edited 04 January 2001).]

Bob Hawke

4th Jan 2001, 17:30

And meanwhile the expats have to pay the same horrendous amount for nothing.....yes nothing, absolutely nothing!!!

If its the same handphone king that your talking about, he wants to take the money and more, because as in an advisory capacity he thinks (he) they are worth it! Yeah....NOT!!!!!

Pilost, its a very very exclusive club in MAPA, and they are NOT representative of their entire membership, only the select few. If you they had any idea about industrial relations, for all, they would be much more effective. Sadly as Wooblah has said, it is only a launching platform for personal management careers, in most instances. At least some of Management have more integrity than this blithsome creature.

The moment any integrity kreeps into MAPA, it will be by accident that it happened, more than by leadership and planning. Look at the some of the delegates at the moment; speaks volumes, doesn't it!

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

8th Jan 2001, 07:57

My Dear Pilost,

Happy Hols to you and hope you have a great new year. Yes, perhaps I was a bit cranky, but alas perhaps it is combined with a dash of frustration as the sad facts in your reply confirm the sad state of affairs within MAPA. Your reply refers that it is the only platform that the pilots have to express themselves and yes, this is to some extent true. But don't you think that the current EXCO has a somewhat hidden agenda! Many of the pilots I have discussed this with
seem to agree that the current EXCO is a mutual admiration society and does not embrace the espirit de corps that the association was based upon. There seems to be very little discussion with members and in reality most are completely in the dark.
The pilots in MAS are not mercenary in their demands, rather I believe that we are infact a fair and loyal bunch of employees. Therefore is it not unfair that in good times we are not compensated for our sacrifices!This is further exacerbated by the blatent display of EXCO members of their intention to follow in the footsteps of the previous EXCO to management positions, this weakens the associations stand with regard to the membership as the associations speakers are very very mindful not to step on any toes for fear that their management aspirations are not jeopardised, this in turn leads to a weakened stand with regard to the full membership. At least the previous president to some extent stood up and said his piece and resigned from MAS, this was a brave but rash act and only served to diminish the power base of MAPA.
It created the illusion that MAPA was weak and that all should shape up or ship out. This is an inaccurate anology of events, rather it should have served to close ranks and continue the battle within SOP's to increase costs by all pilots WORKING TO RULE.
Therefore I put it to you, where is the leadership and visible sacrifice of the current EXCO, they reckon they are doing us the membership a favour by sitting on their buts doing nothing constructive. So chaps please tell me where do we go from here???

Happy Hols, Wooblah.

PILOST

8th Jan 2001, 21:06

Thanks Wooblah for the warm greetings.May this year bring good tidings to you & all of us.

I do agree with your observation that some of the former exco had used MAPA as a stepping stone to achieve an office position,but somehow Wooblah,I believe that you have posted a few inaccurate facts.

The last MAPA president (pygmy) was booted out by the members when he revealed that he was offered the VP Line Ops just after the successful signing of the previous MOU in 1995.This offer was also extended to the then Vice president of MAPA (Snake) to be made as Chief Pilot N/Body.Only after this did the membership saw their true colours, but alas it was too late.The damage had been done.To add salt to the still raw wound, these two turncoats didn't even finished their term as exco when they signed on the bottomline accepting their brand new stars with the bars!

The pilots in MAS themselves are to be blamed for some of the predicament that they are in.When the present exco called for a work to rule on the 777 & 744 fleet,most of that fell on deaf ears.Some pilots were still flying when the company didn't pay the overtime!Maybe the pilots feared reprisals, but I have yet to see a pilot being DI'ed for stepping down.This in turn create the illusion that MAPA was weak as the membership didn't respond to the call for SOP's & work to rule.Heck!I personally known some of the pilots were 'announcing' to crewing that off days during n/stop are legal off days!

Though I'm not being defensive of the present exco,my only consolation is that I've yet to see the present exco being offered a management position or a brand new Audi A6 right after the signing of the present MOU. :rolleyes:

The other point I would like to bring up is "this is Malaysia Airlines".The government has a final say in every board decision.It's definitely foolhardy to engage the management in an agressive manner to meet our demands.Look what happened in the late 70's,when the union reps were slapped with the ISA when they called a strike.Those reps have not recovered from their trauma until today!Ok maybe the 70's were too long ago.....let's look at the OZ pilot dispute.Have we not learned from that episode?When you're up against an instituition that is elected by the people,who will look stupid?The public will not symphatise with us.As it is,we're perceived to be well off than the average well off Joe from across the street!

Hence Wooblah it's 'better the devil you know'.It's not perfect but it could be better.Hey!Why not run for the exco post then Wooblah?You'll definitely have my vote!You can count on that!& yes it won't be a dimpled chad...... :rolleyes:

Till then all,
Safe Flying.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

tigerwood

8th Jan 2001, 21:34

Well, I think he was refering to someone else not that 2 guys. Anyway, please check your AGM minutes once again. These 2 guys weren't kick out by the members but more to the changed of the constitution. An Exco must resign from his/her post if he/she accept a management post. Please, the members at that time was still in love with these 2 guys, I still remember when one member put up a petition for an EGM (prior to the changed of the constitution) opposing them from wearing "two hats", but only less than 100 members signed. Some even deleted their names from the list with thick marker pen (so that no one can read their names) for fearing of backfire.Some even put a remark in the petition file. Therefore, MAPA was never strong to start with. During Camel time, we all have the same "enemy" and these 2 gentlemen managed to exploite the situation. One of these guys was a MAPA exco many years ago. He dropped everything down the moment he was offered a 737 fleet captain post. If you are good, you are good. You don't have to be in MAPA exco to grab the management

PILOST

8th Jan 2001, 22:05

Agreed Tigerwood on your points.Hence my term of 'booted out' due to the 'two hats' constituition.But if you were at the EGM you would have seen how Pygmy told the members present that he will be able to serve better by being in both camps!You had to be there to see the reaction of members present!It was definitely love....love to hate!The reaction can never be minuted by the secretary!Hence the watered down version.

Like you said T,"if you are good,you're good"
but if you could be better why notlah? :rolleyes:

Safe Flying,
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

9th Jan 2001, 08:39

Dear Pilost,

Thanks for the New Years good wishes, and yes Tiger is right as the president I was refering to was Azzie who resigned from MAPA and MAS to go to Emirates I believe. Funny how he is so quickly forgotten, personally I do feel sad that he had to leave but I hope he is enjoying the extra cash and stress free environment at his new work place, as I am sure he is having the last laugh.
With regards to the PYGMIE, yes a rotten fellow to the core, he rode the back of Nik who I reckon had good intentions and did at least achieve a tangible pay rise for all. But I do know that you dislike him and refer to him as a snake, alas you are intitled to your opinion as I am also entitled to mine so I will respect your point of view and not harp on further with regard to Nik.
More importantly, do you not think that it is a time for the YOUNG GUNS, such as your self to get together and come up with a united stratergy to move into the 21st century. Get together as a group and discuss ways to get fair and impartial people into MAPA, engauge a firm reputed in industrial law and persevere within legal and honourable avenues to achieve fair and reasonable terms and conditions for the technical crew regardless of race, creed or colour. Surely it is possible to achieve a foothold in the right direction without having to be detained within the EA (Emergency Act) or ISA (Internal Security Act) The secret is to negotiate within the legal processes available, and to do this you need specialists, and MAPA can afford this! I will be leaving soon for greener pastures overseas and alas I am an old fogie ready for the retirement home, have fought the good fight for many years and my first officers have always supported me as I have supported them, They have been known to call me in the middle of the night to help them even in personal problems. So do the right thing and never give up and say you cannot do anything for fear of reprisals, there is so much you can do if it is planned and executed within the law properly by men of integrity with genuine intentions.

Happy Flying, Captain Wooblah.

tigerwood

12th Jan 2001, 08:34

Wooblah, wish you all the best!

PILOST

14th Jan 2001, 13:45

Dear Wooblah,sad to hear you're leaving us in the near future.Anyway best of luck in your new endeavours.May you have blue skies & cavok wx ;)

Well like you,I might also move to greener pasture & get my money's worth for the work done if conditions don't improve in the next few years.Hopefully, the new MAS management will treat their employees better this time around & treat us as an asset rather than just cost to slash.As it is,MAS is bleeding senior (local)& qualified expat pilots.

Safe Fying all!
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
PILOST

[This message has been edited by PILOST (edited 14 January 2001).]

Bob Hawke

15th Jan 2001, 04:53

Well everyone is leaving, who will be left to drive the machines?

Iso

15th Jan 2001, 05:02

Wooblah, and Pilost,

Congratulations on your new moves. I hope all goes well. Meanwhile the devolution will continue, if this brain drain continues. It will be expensive to initiate a recovery when it gets to its base.

Back Seat Driver

16th Jan 2001, 15:48

Greetings Wooblah,
Ifn you're headed down to the land of eternal sunshine, the land that holds true to the principle that Beer needs no "sin" tax, the only requirement being you have to drink lots of it. Then look me up MR. Bondy bloke, I'm in the phone book..BNE..
Regards

------------------
If you're ugly...You may as well be fat and ugly.

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

19th Jan 2001, 09:45

Yes back seat,

I sure will do that and we can toss some real bull around over a XXXX.

Cheers to all, Wooblah.

P.S sunnies are a must..........

Back Seat Driver

19th Jan 2001, 13:15

Lookin' forward to catching up with you Wooblah.
Hang Loose Dude.

novice

20th Jan 2001, 04:23

Wooblah, if you're headed down that direction, I am vely vely curious as to what the entry criteria is?
Surely you would need a XXXX or a VB CPL/ATPL at least, unless you're only going there to enjoy the sunshine, the beers and the occasional sailing in the harbour?

tigerwood

21st Jan 2001, 04:29

Wooblah, please don't go. MAS is getting better now. initially you get the new pay increment/scale. Now, the 4 percent of housing loan and a pension, it's more than what you have asked for. Oh yes, you might get the government car loan too. So, why not stay put. One more thing, they'll issue you a name tag each like all kakitangan kerajaan. Don't worry, it's free!

kurmitola

21st Jan 2001, 19:36

So....is there any truth in that rumours about downsizing ? Will we a get a better deal ? I wonder if those people who left for KAL, SQ, CI, EK etc.. are really regretting now. At least those in KAL, CI and SQ are all Captains. Look at those idiots who went to EK..they will be siting on the right seat for years...not a very pleasant idea when they could have become Commanders if they stayed on. Ha....ha.. bad move guys...

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

28th Jan 2001, 12:07

Dear Novice, astute observation, yes you will require PR status thus the right to live and work in the lucky country and an ATPL from CASA. The PR can be obtained through the point system ( Take your chances ) Or Busines PR $AUD 500,000 I believe is the figure. Well on both counts I'm OK. As for the future I intend to withdraw my EPF buy a small place and do some part time flying and or instructing to cover the bills, the rest of the time I'll spend at the beach, on the boat and at the bar panning for liquid gold. I cannot express in words how great life is away from MAS. Perhaps one day when you have sufficent funds tucked away you too will experience the same euphoria.

To Tigerwoods, thanks for the kind words, you strike me as a very compasionate person and if you are a captain I'll bet you are kind and understanding to your crew, if you are an FO well keep it up you will make a great commander. Always learn from past mistakes and difficulties from yourself and others. Always continue to learn and evolve, this profession of ours is one of constant learning. Never be discouraged and when you know it all. It's time to retire cause you are one dangerous flier.

Finally I would like to say that most of my life was spent in MAS certainly the cream of my youth. I think the company is fantastic and the Kaki Tangan ( Staff ) in general are very nice people. Also I have observed real talent and expertise second to none such as Ritz and Wahab to name a few but alas they are gone. I salute Ritz for stepping down as Chief Pilot Tec Dev and telling the management what he thought which was the truth and sadly, has come to pass. Unfortunatly it is the selfish few with hidden agendas and their own personal interests at the fore front that have for the last 8 years caused the mess that is MAS today. How very very sad. Their rule of total chaos is about to come to an end. Imagine Jew ( apologies to the Jew's ) conducting pilot interviews when not in management. So many Malaysians apply for co-pilot jobs at MAS and MAS has 150 vacancies so they took 8 the rest will be cheapies tied to contracts not worth the paper they are written on at ridiculous terms and conditions. Yes an airline run by the lowest bidder, so very very sad. So "YOUNG GUNS" do your stuff, I hope you have the courage to say enough is enough and repair the mess that these selfish individuals have created and not become as they have become. I have faith in the younger generation so dont let Captain Wooblah down. I will visit from time to time and I still have ears in MAS. All the best and Good Luck, I hope you guys don't mind me poking my nose in when I have a valid point to make. Cheers........Wooblah.

HARRIS HASSAN

28th Jan 2001, 20:04

Hey CW,
Please feel free to poke.

novice

29th Jan 2001, 12:41

I don't get it? Why worry about those brave hearts who left for KAL,SQ,CAL,EK and QF??? It seems that Kurmitola can do no better than being here in MAS and is probably jealous of the fact that the merry "X-MAS" few are doing three times better than him. I think we ought to congratulate them for having the balls to relocate to a foreign country despite all the difficulties of the obvious. Since the call was made by Camel for Malaysians to venture out to "a few up north and a couple down south" airlines, I was surprised at the number of skippers and an FO that actually packed up and left was quite a notable worth. They've passed the psychology and medical test of MAS and where they are at now, so I really don't think that you could righteously call them IDIOTS..?? Maybe you are insecure and maybe you are an Idiot yourself, afterall, it takes one to know one. I was told that the starting pay even on the right hand seat is around RM$16k, which is vely close to a Capt B744 take home pay?
So really, if the extra dough helps their families in terms of better lifestyles and retirement plans, why would you classify them as idiots? The right hand seaters have lesser responsibilities, maybe work less but instead have more substance at the end of the day compared to a Captain in MAS??? Imagine, a second officer in Cx gets RM$260k PA and compare that to our Captains...So what is the big deal....Mr Big Hat but no cows? Is it the Euphoria of someone calling you "Captain" that turns you on Kurmitola? Sad boy you are..
What are you worth as a four balak when you aren't respected, getting sh*t pay and screwed around by everyone including the rostering clerk? ( not mentioning the girls). I think the guys are better off there in Lalaland, getting valuable contracts worth the time they're there. Besides, they can always come back and get promoted to a Chief Pilot right, so why worry? Nurries mate! MAPA has nothing except for the Annual dinner parties, more meetings,golf and a muddy stepping stone for wannabee managees...damn bladdi yous lessss.
Hardly we are going to get a better deal from the company now. With substantial debt about US$2.4 Bn. low yields, low low cash reserves, increasing fuel cost, continuing losses and the world economy coming to a slow down, MAS will have to restructure and downsize to give Kurmitola a better deal. From a report, B744 will be halved to 8, B777 to 8, A330 to 8, F50 to 4. Others are sold outright, returned to lessor or leased back.
Services to Fra,Rome,Paris, Vie,Man,Zrh and Muc will be changed or suspended. The daily KL-LA will terminate in either Tyo/Tpe with the remainder of the flight operated by Northwest. As many as 5000 of our 21000 employee could "get laid" (again??) including tech+cabin screws. So there's your better deal.

To CW, good luck in your "Sunset Dreaming" to the land a yonder, joining the other lucky few whom have gone before you. As far as I know there are Seven or Eight guys there now, including those still in CAL,KAL and a Bollywood Investor. I think Yogi Bear is still there in QF, so why not give him a ring if you're panning gold under the "Jambatan". Thanks for the tips but I know a few tricks too, on how to get me there someday. One: I'm being prosecuted here because I'm gay, so I can claim refuge.,Two: Get a De Facto wife from Bondi., and Three: Just hire a boat from Indonesia and sail in...no problem, they'll let you stay anyway.
I am considering my retirement options and also looking at the "Bay" area or up north closer to the Orcas on the other side of the Great Pond.
Avagoodone and seeyalater. Send us a postcard...Ha..Ha..
Kurmitola can get lost.

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

29th Jan 2001, 17:50

Dear Novice,

You have every reason to be upset and I for one am in agreement with your points. I started this thread because I and many others feel that MAPA is ripping the membership off. They appear in action and policy to only support those that they want and those that they can get mileage from, this to my mind appears dishonest. Furthermore I also wonder about the associations funds, correct me if I am wrong but it is a sizeable ammount and I for one don't know where it really really goes. To add insult to injury the EXCO appear to be a bunch of dizzy airheads.
Some chaps without mentioning names oh ok Kurmitola and Pilost seem rather misinformed and keep hitting at the same old stuff like a broken record, but when it comes to job posts such as the recent 737-200 with good pay, (Might be Lion Air) they seem so very interested, this leads me to assume, perhaps wrongly that even for them life is not that rosey in MAS. Therfore you chaps have to close ranks, you can't hit the company financially, there is no more money but you can start to put in place strong, honest and unbiased leadership in MAPA. This will help should retrenchments occur.

Also you are correct in the fact that MAS total debt is approx $Rm 9 Billion and growing by the second, The airline will I have no doubt be split in 2, International/Domestic, or 3 International/ASEAN/Domestic. Current problem is that Malaysian funding is not possible as the local corporate sector is cash strapped and the government does not want to lose control to a foreign investor.
Secondly who will take it over? Pelangi and Air Aisia are debt ridden as well furthermore they do not have the expertise to run the services profitably and I have no doubt will end up in a larger financial mess than currently is in existance. So The finance ministry the new old owners must really be in a bind, they must really be sick of the word restructure! Perhaps it's time to cut, chop and sell downsize repay debt without borrowing, run the operation profitably and claw back into the green slowly but risk loss of market share and global alignment via strategic partnership.
To achieve the aformentioned there is going to be major house cleaning and there are going to be a lot of skeletons in the closets with a lot of embarrased fellows running around with their pants down. I think the Government should go for it clean up the act and prosecute all these fellows as an example to those that might aspire to follow in their footsteps, they certainly will get tremendous political mileage both at home and globally with this move. Perhaps this will even bring back investor confidance to this country and stimulate the economy further. After all WTO is the trading arm of the global village.

So novice you stick to your guns and lead by example the lads have been sheep for a long time, but like a pressure cooker with a jammed safety valve it will eventually blow and changes will happen.

PS picked out a blue eyed blonde 36-24-34 5"8' should you decide to retire here.

Cheers, Wooblah.

HARRIS HASSAN

29th Jan 2001, 19:49

I must say that I totally agree with novice's
opinion of kurmitola.Poor chap has got an
attitude problem.
As for CW's perception of MAPA's leadership,I
think that's not quite accurate.When you go
negotiate a deal,you do your best to be as
cautious as possible not to let the other
side know your own weaknesses.For MAPA, this is extremely difficult to achieve because there are a lot of leaks within the pilot
community.It's tough trying to cope with the
crap thats going around.Despite the fact that members of the exco do not get paid a sen for their efforts,I'm sure the agreements concluded with management,past, present and the future has been and shall be
palatable for the majority of MAPA members.
You can't please 100% of the members.
Even within the exco,there are differing
views on strategies and action plans.
Being ignorant of the going ons within the daily affairs of the exco does not give any
fool the justification to criticize the achievements of past,present and future exco.
Stop bitchin,moanin & groanin and come out to
the fore and possitively contribute rather than hide behind this shield of anonymity.
Nothing personal,I'm merely sharing my experiences of the past so as to help other
ppruners to avoid making a goddamn fool of
themselves.
I now humbly retire to bed so I may rest in
pist before I shoot off to ZRH tommorow.

P.S. CW,please try and not to poke yourself
in the foot....seeyah

Iso

30th Jan 2001, 06:39

CW sums it up well again. It could be inevetable that the restructuring could bring about a fragmentation of all the operations.

There are a number of companies, individuals, and dare I say, State Governments that would welcome the opportunity to participate in the development of Domestic and Regional operations, as opposed to the International Operations. This may actually be a good omen.

However, where does this leave MAPA. Always exclusively representing a select few. It is about time that they also broadened their horizons in the event that the fragmentation does occur. As suggested, there could be up three seperate companies, i.e. pilot groups. Are they going to stay with the elite, or try and secure fair, reasonable, consciencious representation of all those pilots in each group?

How can you do this with the current constitution? You cant! In fact the membership base should perhaps be widened now, to include Pelagi, Air Asia, Transmile, and other groups.

Why? because it will strengthen the association, with better representation across the whole industry. It will strenghten it's negotiation power in future, and will assure those outside of MAS are also represented fairly in all matters relating to their employment.

Being a member of the EXCO or president, you can expect some heat, while your in the kitchen. As has been seen before, those who were in kitchen past, were perceived as helping themselves to all the desserts, before it was served to anyone else. So what do you guys expect, those opinions above and the actions of the past do not lend themselves favourably to Past, Present, or even Future EXCO,s. Take it or leave it. That is the legacy of the EXCO. YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THAT!!

You talk about being up front, AND stop hiding behind anominity! What a great statement that is! Even the current President, takes advice from fools, who make unfounded statements about individuals and events, responding accordingly and somewhat maliciously, WITHOUT checking the quality of the source. That is the current leadership! That is how the MAPA ship is steered. You have to change that, if you want the confidence of the membership. Yes sir, check your facts first, find out what is going on. Find out why some individuals tell you some things, what is their motivation. Read between the lines! Think before you act. That goes for all the exco; make informed decisions, not emotional ones.

Anonomity rules supreme, whilst MAPA displays no true integrity.

I N T E G R I T Y !
Word for the day. Learn it, spell it, practise it!

Informed debate with the EXCO is welcome in my mind, good to hear that. Keep at it.
This is a step towards integrity.

It is the year of the snake, but there have been more snakes in MAPA than anywhere else, this year is no different. Time to change you imagine.

Sunshine

30th Jan 2001, 13:33

A one time post only !!!!
Anybody notice its the same souls who are posting ? The same topics !!! What a shame, so much negative energy spent on a lot of fabrication !! Maybe if the Airline actually closed down, there wont be so much time to waste !!! Remember the guy with no shoes !!

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

30th Jan 2001, 13:56

Dear Harris,

Criticism is the essence of improvement and efficiency, Asians, Malaysians look at this as negative, bad manners ect. This is a cultural fault that must be overcome if we are to move forward. Westerners, ie, US, Europe, UK, Australians ect. Do not look upon Criticism as negative, they infact take it as natural and use it to further improve the system if it is constructive or explain and clarify the situation if negative. In a nutshell criticism is used as a tool to enhance the current situation and if required further improve the way things are done. A good example of the NON USAGE OF CRITICISM is the current abominable state of affairs in MAS. I ask you, where were the check and balances that could have prevented the downhill slide that MAS is currently in.
Was it because the people that saw what was happening did not criticise the policies that were implemented due to a deep rooted culturally created inferiority complex that prevented them from stopping their bosses out of a sense of Kurang Ajar (Bad manners, not the done thing, who am I to question my seniors and betters ect) Perhaps your father was good at handeling people, as he was! because he was a physics teacher and had been through the mill, especially during his days in the Malaysian Auxillary Airforce, Why don't you ask him?

As to MAPA EXCO not being paid, They volounteered for the position knowing full well that no renumeration was available.
But, if this is a problem perhaps these positions should carry a salary, but with renumeration comes responcibility and accountability, this point should be voiced at the AGM. Perhaps, it is time for professional industrial specialists to enter and dominate the EXCO positions with a reasonable salary/Fee attached. Would you have an industrial lawyer fly MAS aircraft or a MAS pilot representing you in Industrial Court. These and many more questions need to be seriously mooted at the AGM.

But alas will the YOUNG GUNS turn up I for one hope so and I hope and pray that they will stand up without fear and voice out these and many other important points without fear of being bullied by the gangster like factions in flight operations management. Certain GOONS that are mates with some EXCO members.

Lastly Harris, could you at least explain where the sizeable monthly donations to MAPA from the membership is going?

Remember Harris we are discussing points here and nothing personal is aimed at you in fact in my days at MAS I kind of liked you and thought that you were a person of integrity. But sometimes things change, but in your case I sincerely hope not.

Have a nice flight, Cheers, Wooblah.

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

30th Jan 2001, 14:06

Dear Sunshine,

You sound like a management type fellow and perhaps it is you that may have no shoes in the end, I think that most points here are valid. So if you don't like it here go somewhere else bend over and see if the sun shines out of your A$$, we for one won't be wearing shades. On the other hand if you have something constructive to add please do so.

Wooblah................

Sunshine

30th Jan 2001, 16:06

Hey, Wooblah @ Br*ce, I thought that you believed in free speech and opinions.....I presume that was fabricated as well, uh ? Maybe you should be constructive and not accept anymore money from this sick and crappy Company ( why wait for retirement )and go back to that wonderful land that BOB kicked you out of ! Dont forget to lay in the sun and drink that good KIWI XXXX beer !You know something, I think BOB was right........aviation in the great GAFALL is better today than it ever was !! You have a nice day now, and dont forget... everybody else has a right to their own opinion....... or have you fogotten !Oh ya.... one other thing mate, every time I see snake walk by, I see the soles of your shoes coming out his A##E ........ dont play Honky Tonk politics in this land of 'dumb'brown people !!!! Cheers, mate !!!!

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (edited 30 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (edited 30 January 2001).]

novice

31st Jan 2001, 06:14

I feel sorry for myself now after I wake up in the morning when the "sun begin to shine". I didn't know that I was "dumb and brown"...hmmmm somehow I've always thought of myself as "smart and yellow"....but one thing is true though, that the management of the company is sick and crappy, well said "Sunshine". Actually it is not only that. There is lack of management & leadership at all levels, blurred vision and haphazard mission. Staff morale is so low contributing to low motivation and a workforce uninterested in what they are doing for the company. Most are doing just enough to get by and leaving chance and fate to "take care" of the company. It's not a wonder why the culture of taking care of one's own rice bowl is so well established and being picked up by newbies.
Let's hope so that something good will happen sooner or later. The "sooner" will depend on those people who are able to understand what it is all about and to see the need and value.
The "later" will be influenced by those who are unable to understand the concept, unable to accept criticism and are outraged by it because of the confused patriotism that they feel inside. They will seek to impose this sad ignorance on everybody else.
If we are really against foreigners, then let's not even drive the bloody expensive so called national car. What we do today has direct consequence on what happens tomorrow. If the british didn't come or the Aussies didn't fight the Imperial troops during WW2, would there be Malaysia or even Malaysia Airlines at all?
What I'm trying to get at here guys is let's stick to the issue here...being the management of MAS and MAPA. Leave race, colour, which school or district you come from out of this. Task in other companies which are routine become an impossible task in MAS because of fights, factions, disputes and far too much internal politics. We have to stop too much corruption, cheating and nepotism which was further contributed directly by the almost X-chairman and is big brother, and others linked by their political connextion. Otherwise, there is nothing to stop the once successful airline that was going global crashing under it own excess baggage.
CFIT.

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

31st Jan 2001, 06:54

Dear Sunshine,

You sound like the blackduck or one of his cronies. Firstly I am not Bruce and secondly so much for your ONETIME POST ONLY! The dig I had at you was to illicit a reaction from you! Thus I now know that you are management or one of their cronies and furthermore extremely sensitive to any form of criticism, when cornered you become angry and then vindictive. Are you looking for someone to bully that is what a coward such as the blackduck would do, he bullies the weak and junior not the people above him.
So think about it and come back when you have grown up and have something constructive to contribute, if that is at all possible?

Wooblah...................

Iso

31st Jan 2001, 08:23

Novice, stand and take a bow. You put it so well. Most individuals here, irrespective of race, colour, religion,or political leanings; I assume would like to see MAS regain its rightful regional presence, but with the culture that your refering to being predominate, it will take a major shift of attitude, both MAPA and Management.

There are many examples of fine leadership and company recoveries from even worse situations than what is visited upon us now.

It will take a visionary team, in both Management and MAPA to recognise this, and sieze the day. Take the challenge, but in doing so, nothing speaks louder than deeds. It must be seen from the very top that there is a clear mission, a strategic plan of substance, a corporate culture of unity, and a desire to achieve transformation for the benefit of all, Workers, Management, Shareholders, and the public.

It is hoped that the talented ones will prevail. The self-indulgent individuals suffer in their own makings.

MAPA is the forum to initiate change. May this be successful.

PPRuNe Towers

31st Jan 2001, 08:46

I don't really enjoy geting up at 4am to keep an eye on this forum. Despite that I would like to thank both Iso and Novice for their sterling attempts to keep this thread on track.

Attack the argument and not the writer or this forum will never gain the importance it otherwise deserves.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]

MASystem

31st Jan 2001, 11:16

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3193/girl.gif

Cool down boys, things can't be that bad...Don't be too naughty alright?

see if you can catch me... :)

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

1st Feb 2001, 06:46

Wooblah Stands Down.

An unreserved apology to all on this thread inclusive of Sunshine and the man in the tower, sorry to get you up at 0400 unless perhaps the missus took advantage of you!

Quite correctly, there are important issues to be addressed here. So again my apologies.

Sincerely, Captain Wooblah.

Gen-X

1st Feb 2001, 07:38

You must be really retired to have an internet bar in your own home..eh, CW?? You ought to be out there in a real bar with real people sometimes..

Back Seat Driver

3rd Feb 2001, 14:39

As a foreigner who spent a few years with M.A.S., I have enjoyed reading these posts. You have a great country and a great airline. The thing I have enjoyed most though, is the input from a whole range of interested parties offering their ideas. It is indeed unfortunate that Malay custom does not easily allow for import being given to everyone's opinions rather than deferring to the direction of the group in power. The anonimity of this forum should help to broaden the ideas and passing of information.
ps. Sunshine... even I know Wooblah is not Bruce... Though I am proud to call both Bruce and Wooblah friends. You will do MAS a disservice if you discount their ideas because both gentlemen have a lot to offer, and be in no doubt that both Wooblah and Bruce have nothing but the best of intentions towards MAS.
That is the sort of people they are.... creators not destroyers...

------------------
If you're ugly...You may as well be fat and ugly.

[This message has been edited by Back Seat Driver (edited 03 February 2001).]

HARRIS HASSAN

3rd Feb 2001, 21:24

WOOBLAH DEAREST,
It's not that we locals can't accept criticism,but some of your earlier transmissions,I feel are rather offensive.

DO NOT DO ON TO OTHERS WHAT YOU DO NOT WANT OTHERS TO DO ON TO YOU.

Is it not a natural human trait to improve one's self? If an employer feels that an employee should be rewarded for his or her performance,is it not improper to accept?

On the 4th of Jan, you mentioned about a particular person's lips and about this person pretending to be busy etc....
If that is your version of a criticism,then I fear you have brought the meaning of integrity to a new level.

Just like you and I, my father has his share of friends and adversaries and I'm sure during his tenure, he did his best.As a matter of fact we all do the best we can but sometimes things do not turn the way we want them to be.

As for the association's accounts,every year during the AGM, the members are given the opportunity to scrutinize the issue.I can assure you that every agenda is above board.
As a matter of fact the level of integrity is ionospheric.

P.S. Hey CW, had any furburger lately?

Gen-X

4th Feb 2001, 04:25

What Bull Harris, How can you assure anyone that every agenda in MAPA is above board, who are you anyway but not for the former DFO's son? Ionosperic? In MAPA ? I certainly don't think so.
Secondly, what do you mean by "It's not that we local can't accept criticism?" You can't justify that at all. Maybe there are a few that can, but 99% CANNOT accept any criticism espcially from outsiders...
There are people without the basic criteria that was and is still being imposed on 99.9999% of the population, whom are "above board" that were accepted into MAS thru the back localiser approach. Now these people truly are above board. How is that justifiable other than accepting the natural law of the universe, survival of the fittest?
Maybe the culture of being open and pragmatic isn't so bad after all, if we all dare open our eyes a bit and come out from the shell that we feel so comfortable in for so long. I agree with Novice's view that most are selfish and only looking at their own rice bowls, their own extra meal allowance, their own extra flt time payment, their own corner offices and trips to Sydney..So much bullsh*t that it stinks.

HARRIS HASSAN

4th Feb 2001, 07:33

GEN-X,
Obviously you are the one that's living in a shell.

The process of being employed is controlled by the Human Resources department.Ask Chong Min Sin, Percival Reyes and Peter Low.For you to even mentioned the existance of impropriety, runs smack into insulting the integrity of these fine gentlemen.

As for the situation in MAPA, I steadfastly stand by what I said.If you think you have what it takes to enhance the situation, then I suggest you come out to the fore and make a differance.

On the subject of criticism, maybe you confuse it verbal abuse.Any person, irrespective of origin would agree with me on this issue.

On your grouses about the management's manipulation of the roster, I suggest you confront Nawawi and get to the bottom of the issue once and for all.

Gen-X

4th Feb 2001, 11:32

Ha..Ha ..very funny, maybe I am living in a golden shell but I can tell you that I've had a peek outside and somehow it doesn't feel comfortable anymore cos there too much crap in this shell. I would very much like to move on.
I still don't know which planet you're from. How can you even begin to suggest for people to come out in the open and face the wrath of the vindictive management and would be managers from MAPA? My head isn't that big yet, I know my peanuts aren't, so,I'd like to remain anonymous for now and enjoy the forum, thanks.

Since you are full of integrity so help us talk to Nawawi and sort out the problems for us. (He is said to be of fine background and integrity too, BTW).
Human Resources/Engagement is another tool for them. So many bypasses for so many years, starting when guys your batch, maybe even YOU started doing it in the 80's. So what BS business have I got going to HR for? What old ace said before were quite true, unfortunately he has gone or evolved..

P/S:A pilot who lands in the middle of a highway for fun is a f**k*ng dangerous one. Rogue pilots are a menace, undermining aviation and threatening lives and property.

Goldwing2000

4th Feb 2001, 22:25

HH, on the whole I see where you are coming from but wake up and smell the bloody coffee! If you're advocating that everything is above board at MAS that you're a bigger fool then we can all dare to imagine!! MAS is plagued by nepotism and croynism of the highest order. The so called back door approach has always existed and will always remain at MAS and Asia. The airline hasn't just fallen into it's present state of affairs overnight but through years of mis-management which included ALL the departments and certainly HR is no exception. From where I'm standing the only one living in a shell seems to be you plus wearing the odd blickers for good measure.

-------------
If it moves, then funk it!

Gen-X

5th Feb 2001, 04:35

HH
I wouldn't be surprised to see you in "their" shoes soon, considering the dynasty and legacy you have to continue. I'm hitting below the belt but tell us it's not true. Then it will be the same ol' same ol'., and we'll continue being anonymous and thank Danny for this fine bar where we are free to express our concerns without the "Firm" telling us what to think and do.

Off to London tonite, so keep it coming. Don't wait up.

HARRIS HASSAN

5th Feb 2001, 21:16

GOLDWING2000,
Either you are suffering from HYPOXIA or your comprehension is lacking.

I never said anything about MAS being above board.Go get your eyes check!

ABOVE BOARD was in reference to the activities during the AGM when members scrutinize the accounts.

My peripheral vision is excellent.It must be from where you are standing that's creating the problem.

Please come up with something better.You are an embarrassment to the pilot community.Can't even grasp simple english.

You remind me of the ELEPHANTS,thick skin and big ears...pandai tengok orang punya buntut, tapi sendiri punya tak nampak.

Please GOLDWING, wake up and get out of this ignorant stupor of yours.

P.S.Hey darling,can you please be my elephantine this coming valentine?

HARRIS HASSAN

5th Feb 2001, 23:11

GEN-X,
You and Goldwink must be in the same class.Good at poking into the affairs of people your'e unfamiliar with.

I joined RAS you fool, and not MAS.

Back localiser my bud.

Don't despair,I have no ambitions of being in anybody's shoes.I'm my own man and I take things as they come.

Nowhere in my earlier thread had I claimed to be a person of intergrity.I leave it to the people around me to judge it.

BTW,since your'e gonna be in LHR tonite,why don't ya give him a BBJ,I'm sure he's gonna be mighty glad.

P.S.Cum back quick honey,I neeedjaa...

zamani

6th Feb 2001, 06:29

Hello Guys,

I'm in my mid 20's and am interested in becoming a pilot for MAS. Where should I start first? Should I get a PPL and CPL on my own or should I join some MAS program?

Not doing it for the money coz I'm earning close to what a "junior" 777 captain earns. Just would like to try something else besides engineering.

Please advise.

Thanks!

Zamani

SKIN2

6th Feb 2001, 18:13

Mr Zamani...dude, you sure u wanna do that? Mid 20's with a "junior" 777 Capt salary, and u wanna pick up flying with MAS, take a HUGE paycut, get screwed around for 8-9 years before getting your command on the 737 (maybe), then spend another 2-3 years before making it to the Widebodies (maybe) and then maybe make what u are making NOW???!!!??? Dude, either u have a rich family or a loyal wife. Bt if all this doesn't discourage u, you're a brave man and you have all my blessings.
And finally to answer your question, yeah the MAS cadet pilot scheme is pretty much the best way to get in. I know a lotta guys who got their CPL/IR's and ATPL's privately and 8 years later with command hours on a Turbine still can't get an FO position in MAS. Makes u wonder doesn't it....

tallyho92

7th Feb 2001, 21:29

My, My HH did goldwing touch a nerve, before
you criticise other people`s comprehension
of english, maybe you should look this word
up in the dictionary --- HYPOCRITE ---
Yeah sure, locals can take critism, you just
demonstrated so eloquently that you`re one
of the few that "can", your arguments are
so full of holes they should make cheese
out of it

zamani

7th Feb 2001, 22:39

Hi there,

Neither my family nor I are wealthy. That is why I would like to join the MAS cadet program instead of getting it on my own, but if I have to and the costs are not too prohibitive, I may do it.

However, there are many issues that really bother me with the current airline situation. Especially with the way it's being "managed".

How much should I expect to get as a 737 co-pilot?

Thank you.

Zamani

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

8th Feb 2001, 13:39

Dear Zamani,

Perhaps your questions would be better answered on the Newbie Training Post (Posted by Borneo pilot) or starting your own post on the subject of joining MAS. This post deals with MAPA and other issues concerning the Flt Ops mismanagement.

With best intentions, Wooblah

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

8th Feb 2001, 14:12

Dear Back Seat,

Thanks for the kind words.

To Harris Hassan, your impression of the goings on in MAS seem rather warped and quite frankly unrealistic.
To start with HR proper and HR Flight Operations, have no credibility at all. They have been themselves happy little campers pitching their tents where ever they think their promotional chances are improved. Furthermore don't you think that the current shortage of flight crew are a problem that they are responcible for?
Another point is the creation of Flt Ops HR. This is a tool used by certain individuals in Flt Ops mismanagement team to further their hidden agendas with regard to control of pilot intake, if this is not so why the shortage of crew and a large pool of Malaysian's trying to enter MAS.

With regard to your tenure in RAS, why was the issue of seniority numbers given a cut off date of July 1990, that is to say that those without the SO CALLED EDUCATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS. ( I say SO CALLED because the M of U 1990 clearly states a CPL/IR is required nothing less) Such as your goodself (The DFO's son) and the deputy DFO's son (Also in RAS) had seniority numbers attached to your date of join RAS.
You see Harris credibility does carry with it accountability.
I know you have been mates with some of the mismanagement pilots. Your ATPL when you wanted to give up and was talked back into the class by your classmates, you went to see a friend the CP Trg Ars--d Burn, the Blackduck, Joseph and perhaps you are being loyal to your friends, to that I say cool man well it's your friends. But to defend them when they are wrong and have and continue to damage people and the airline, well perhaps it is better to say nothing at all.
Look at the state of cabin crew department and look at who is in charge, man I could'nt think of a worse candidate hence the problems. It seems to be getting worse, the worst possible people are controlling the show. How will this Airline survive.

In total sadness, Wooblah................

Goldwing2000

8th Feb 2001, 16:32

As ever Capt Wooblah very well put. Poor HH with well foundered connections on the mismanagement team. Will he not learn that the team is going to sink like the titanic, slowly but surely, with the rest of the airline and if he persues his arrogant, I want to be an aspiring management pilot/my friends are in high places attitude he's not going to go too far with the rest of the crew. Oh yes, he's his own man, not willing to step in any one's shoes. Trouble is he's already step on many toes here!!

CW ENJOY! :)

----------------
If you do what you always do you get what you always got!

kurmitola

12th Feb 2001, 17:12

HH,
So its true all along that RAS is not MAS. Thats the entity you joined right ? However, lots of my friends cud not find RAS as a registered company, can U ? Or maybe if your dad put you straight onto the F27, it will be too much of an eye opener cos' his deputy will also want the same treatment for his son. But if you looked at the MOU properly, the requirements is only the CPL with IR and both of you have them, so please dont split the issue between you joining RAS instead of MAS ( who is that fool you said ...? )

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

14th Feb 2001, 20:03

Chaps, the recent MAPA AGM says it all backdate % pay to MAPA, pilots say no. Loss of face to EXCO, yes, basically this is a no confidance vote, there is talk of the president MAPA resigning all I can say is so long and perhaps you should go to XXXXX Airlines but they probably would say no. Change is in the air.

Iso

15th Feb 2001, 05:27

What did they expect, you go around treating people with contempt, of course you will never rally support.

It is obvious there are many agendas within MAPA, and it is also obvious that most members, and particularly non-members, regard MAPA as an ineffective self-indulgent organisation. MAPA needs to have GOOD representation, representing all those who are paying members, and doing something about those who DONT pay, but get the benefits anyway.

Swanning around the counrty side and telling everyone how great you are is not necessarily the way to promote your association and its objectives, but is sure damn good way to sell snake oil.

The President is leaving? Got a management job now, or are we going overseas for a little bit of indulgence in expat life perhaps? Good luck to him.

Now with a new Chairman, let's put the wheels back on the old MAPA wagon. Change its image and get amoungst the outstanding issues.

Have a nice day.

Triple Gem

15th Feb 2001, 07:40

Zamani,
If u want to have some air experience,go and joint a flying club. If u want to make the Airline your carreer,apply for MAS Cadet programme. Don't waste your time and money to
finance your own training and hoping to get into MAS, instead be prepared to join the General Aviation which is at times,uncertain.
There are many young aspiring self funded young men with licenses running around without a flying job. Like Capt Wooblah put it,there
are also Malaysians with tons of flying hours
unable to join MAS,unless of course either u are somebody or u know somebody who are inplaced to help u. This is sadly,part of our culture. However, we have white guys running around in RAS,trained by MAS and paid
a handsome expat allowance, not to mention the number of indons there. I wish there are more guys like Michael Ng in his effort in seeking reinstatement. It is a waste of national resources and hurts MAS finances too. But then again,does she care? I suppose the few replies to your thread by MAS pilots serves as an eye opener to u as to the state of affair in MAS Flight Operations.

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

15th Feb 2001, 13:40

Dear Kurmitola & others interested,

A company search with the registra of companies East Malaysia will reveal that indeed RAS ( Rural Air Services ) exists.

Additionally the M of U 1990 which is the same as all previous M of U's since MAS was formed after the disolvement of MSA WITH REGARD TO THIS ISSUE, clearly states the requirement required for issuance of seniority numbers.

It must be also noted that MAS entered into agreement/contract to supply pilots for MAS. Thus all pilots in RAS are indeed hired by MAS. The fact that they are on RAS contracts dos not detract from the fact that their employer is indeed MAS, the contracts merely govern their benifits that differ from the M of U because RAS was once completely crewed by expats. If you look into the RAS contracts before CAMEL tried to change everything you will see no mention of exclusion of seniority numbers for these pilots. This is because it was covered by the M of U ( CPL/IR ) and the employment/Labour acts which excluded expats anyway. Hence they are privy to seniority numbers.

Furthermore the Employment act prevents abuse with regard to permanent employment. After a period of contractual employment where by once the contract is renewed the Malaysian staff is deemed to be permanently employed. Hence Mike Ng and Ragu winning their respective cases against the mismanagement team requireing their reinstatement. ( Well done Boys )

That is why RAS pilots wear the same uniform as MAS pilots and fly the LAYANG from their aircraft tails.

The confusion was intentionally created so as to divide and rule the pilot community, and I may add was an extremely succesful tool and tactic that till this day creates confusion.
It was done to create these particular groups. Ex MSA, Cadets, General Aviation and Air Force RMAF. Hence with all these groups in fighting, MAPA and Mismanagement had control by slight of hand and the promise of policy change. So, the pilots were never all together in one group, this of course would make them ( the pilots ) Too powerful and MAPA and those mismanagement pilots look weak and impotent.

Therefore the NEW MAS of the future should discourage the formation of these groups and all work as one. That is, as the PILOTS OF MAS, no one group is better than all pilots together and united pulling and toiling side by side. And, all Malaysian pilots should be reissued a seniority number from date of join Flt Ops with CPL/IR not staff numbers. As this is what the M of U stated. In addition expat employees should also be given a chance to develop their careers and improve their skills, BUT NOT AT THE DETRIMENT OF MALAYSIAN CITIZENS. Which is only fair as this is after all Malaysia. There should be no SECOND CLASS EMPLOYEES in MAS all should have a fair go.

In closing I would like to say I am not defending any person or any group I just want to tell it as it is. Because Malaysians generally do not like to go to court. But in this matter should those affected wish to litigate as a group action I believe they will win the case and it may come to many millions in compensation.

Sincerely, Wooblah.

kurmitola

16th Feb 2001, 11:46

CW,
Thank You for your honest and valuable input. Now that some of the guys can start looking for a lawyer and proceed with the case. Mike Ng and Ragu's case will serve as a proof of the mismanagement ( esp during that Midget Khairie 's time of abuse....). Another interesting part will be some of those who graduated from Malacca can take up their case as well against their seniority number that was taken away by those whom came back without Perf A ( thus no CPL/IR )...By the way, do you know the figures awarded by the court ?

Triple Gem

16th Feb 2001, 18:40

If RM96,000 is deductable from the award as determined by the court,then it must be at least a six figures sum.

kurmitola

22nd Feb 2001, 15:23

Yeah,
Money is one thing but I think Ragu & Mike can start suing those guys whom were the accomplices and a party to that non-renewal of their contract the last time. If they say there were not , then let them tell the court whose orders was that. X was one of them in that position in SSB at that time. This **$lick&r and non-commital character shud now answer for that. By the way, any new position created lately for those aspiring EXCO in the current office ? I think both Amir..will be a good choice. :)

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 22 February 2001).]

acegreaser

22nd Feb 2001, 15:56

I can't believe you guys are still fussing over MAPA. What one thing that you guys have said in this forum is actually of benefit to MAPA, I wonder. When you say MAPA, do you mean the council or the Association?

Whatever we may think of the council is rightly so our prerogative. But, if the council were to step down en-masse, imagine how it would be to the Association being left in the lurch.

Now the company can start rostering for all the dispensations and not paying you for it. Like SYD for instance. What about JNB and CPT.

In as much as we dislike the Council, we do not have much choice unless one of you guys are willing to step up to the plate.

With MAPA spearheading the emplyee buy-out, if at all the Council is looking for mgmt post, it's definitely gonna be bigger then a CP or VP.

CAPTAIN WOOBLAH

5th Mar 2001, 10:06

Dear Sir,

The association is only as good as the people that run the show. The excuse that I do not get paid for being on the council, president downwards is a total cop out and a smoke screen to hide behind the recalcitrant attitude of these spineless omni pods. Put it to the membership and pay the people that do the work. And if they do not deliver remove them, very simple.

Also, it is apparent that you have not read through this thread! We did mention that perhaps pilots are not suitable in total control of MAPA and that perhaps we should hire professionals ie industrial law firm ect. QUESTION: Why hav'nt we done this?

As to the current MAPA EXCO being promoted to Management, ha ha ha heidi haha. Look at their inability to run MAPA let alone an airline. currently first quarter losses $RM 400 million this year will be about 1 billion Ringgit. Can Petronas bail MAS out on a continual basis!!!!!! MAPA EXCO to the rescue what a laugh, they could'nt run a nasi lemak stall.

Look at the dissatisfaction and frustration throughout the membership, does'nt this in its self speak volumes.

To the Council all I can say is that you have failed and will continue to fail you will never get into management, resign from your posts NOW and if you had any honour throw your worthless bodies into the spinning N1 of a Trent.

Capt, Wooblah...............

Gen-X

6th Mar 2001, 01:21

without all due respect, this MAPA crap is basi already. The Hole whirl nose it lah..Any knew topic to mone abaut??

Iso

6th Mar 2001, 05:17

MAPA SPEARHEADS EMPLOYEE BUYOUT!

Incredible isn't it., where is the depth of experience to mastermind this. Buying an airline, or into it, is not like by a new Mercedes, even though it adds to prestige, YOU do need to know what your doing. I don't see any ecomonic or financial wizards involved here with the necessary business accumin. Being a pilot doesn't qualify!

You need to be a bit more broadly adapted in your skill & knowledge base.

Why not concentrate on the job your meant to be doing, LOOKING AFTER THE INTERESTS OF YOUR MEMBERS. Yes, that is what you should be doing. Stop playing with indulgent glamour concepts and start working as a proper association.

Direct your engergies more fruitfully. Start listening to your members, what's left of them, as they continue leaving, and maybe you might get the focus you need.