AirNZ Academy

[Got the horn]

Email from a mate

it looks like the "AirNZ Aviation Academy" will be announced tomorrow... I've just seen the 'internal' staff update... quotes like this:
"Air New Zealand is to establish an aviation academy to develop and nurture home-grown pilots, cabin crew, engineers and specialist airline management staff."
"Air New Zealand expected to be able to put around 200-300 pilots and engineers each year through the curriculum that it would develop."
"Air New Zealand is currently in discussion with a range of potential partners and expects to announce more details about the academy over the coming year."


Could be interesting...

[slackie]

I think CTC's been sniffing around....I think they've been developing a CRM course for Eagle??

[zk-npr]

Gday Guys

This looks interesting, are you guys Pilots or a related occupation already?

Do you know if Air NZ have hinted at this to the public yet or strictly internal?

Cheers :)

[Konev]

they had/have plans to build it in invercargill.

would involve extending the apron with a new hanger but otherwise the place is set up for it. can simulate pretty much any NZ IFR approach here, also has low traffic density and a 2.2km runway.

[mattyj]

Invercargill, excellent..the IFR won't be simulated:ok:

[komac2]

Air NZ opeing airline school

16/05/2008 13:20:22

Air New Zealand is setting up a school for pilots, cabin crew, engineers and airline management.

The airline's chief pilot Captain David Morgan says the Aviation Academy is being set up to ensure a steady flow of local talent, in what is a highly competitive industry.

Air New Zealand expects to put around 200-300 pilots and engineers through the academy every year.

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=137457

[komac2]

I think CTC's been sniffing around....I think they've been developing a CRM course for Eagle??


Air NZ probably nicked their business model for this school.

[komac2]

a little more info: full press release.

Air New Zealand to establish Aviation Academy

Friday, 16 May 2008, 11:18 am
Press Release: Air New Zealand

16 May 2008
Media Release
Air New Zealand to establish Aviation Academy
Air New Zealand is to establish an aviation academy to develop and nurture home-grown pilots, cabin crew, engineers and specialist airline management staff.
Air New Zealand General Manager Airline Operations and Safety Captain David Morgan said planning was well underway for the Air New Zealand Aviation Academy.
Captain Morgan, who is also Air New Zealand’s Chief Pilot, said the academy was being set up to ensure the steady flow of local talent into Air New Zealand and other airlines within the Asia Pacific region.

In the highly competitive aviation industry, Captain Morgan said it was important to ensure that Air New Zealand had the best people available to support its future growth plans.
“The academy will form the basis of Air New Zealand’s long-term commitment to continuing to build a world-leading airline through a highly skilled and motivated workforce which sees real career prospects and a future in New Zealand.”
“We already operate a very successful training school offering engineering, tourism and travel programmes. This is an opportunity for us to build on that and create in New Zealand an internationally-recognised and accredited aviation academy that will meet the future needs of Air New Zealand and other airline operators in our region,” he says.
“It will also provide opportunities and career structure for our people, and help them define and manage their career paths within the aviation business.”
As well as providing training for those starting out, Captain Morgan said the academy would provide support and training for staff moving through their careers, including aircraft type rating and simulator training.
Air New Zealand’s goal was to establish the academy in partnership with industry, offering people the ability to train at different locations around the country.
This would also provide additional economic benefits to New Zealand regions, Captain Morgan said.
Air New Zealand expected to be able to put around 200-300 pilots and engineers each year through the curriculum that it would develop.
Captain Morgan said New Zealand-trained pilots, cabin crew and engineers were held in high regard internationally for their expertise, professionalism and attitude.
“We expect the Air New Zealand Aviation Academy to further build on and enhance the New Zealand aviation industry’s excellent international reputation.”
Air New Zealand is currently in discussion with a range of potential partners and expects to announce more details about the academy over the coming year.
ENDS


http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0805/S00326.htm

[Konev]

will teach the ardemore and massey lot how to land in any wind strogner than a sparrows fart as well :}

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Quote "In the highly competitive aviation industry, Captain Morgan said it was important to ensure that Air New Zealand had the best people available to support its future growth plans."

Didn't they fire most of their engineers and aren't they right now screwing their regional pilots so much that they would rather fly for the opposition or head to PNG.

F$#K ROB IF YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT NOT HAVING GOOD STAFF DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE SH*T AND THEY WONT LEAVE!!!!!

[Hanz Blix]

THis could be very scary:ooh:

ALPA should be seeing if these new recruits will be contracted or able to join. Air NZ could very well be building a work force they control. Also where are these newbees going to enter the company?????

[horserun]

Well done B B Driver.... Couldnt' have said it better:D:D

[ZKSUJ]

Whats going to happen to guys not yet in Air NZ or Link but are working their way up towards it? If NZ train their own and hire their 'own', will the guys that have paid their way and are still working their way through the NZ industry be left out or hung out to dry bacuase suddenly they wont get the opportunities that may have came up?

I'm talking about pilots btw. If thats the case, alot of us inexperienced CPLs wont get a shot or a chance when it comes our time to be in contention in a couple of years....

[ZK-NSJ]

captain morgan, now theres a good name , prefer bacardi myself

[komac2]

Didn't they fire most of their engineers and aren't they right now screwing their regional pilots so much that they would rather fly for the opposition or head to PNG.



Air NZ engineers ramp up industrial action

Friday, 16 May 2008

Engineers will ramp up industrial action against their employer Air New Zealand after voting down a pay offer from the company.

The engineers, members of the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union (EPMU) and the Aviation and Marine Engineers Association, have already imposed an overtime ban.
Negotiations have been on-going since March, with about 1500 staff members beginning the low-level industrial action on May 9.
From today, engineers will refuse to tow aircraft in and out of hangars, and from next Friday they will refuse to do engine testing.
EPMU national secretary Andrew Little said if an agreement was not reached, the next step would be to refuse work on any aircraft with Air NZ's signature "koru" design on its tail.
The members, who make up the vast majority of Air NZ's engineer workforce, have been seeking a 5.8 per cent pay rise but voted not to accept an offer from the company that amounted to 3.92 per cent over a year.
In mediation between Air NZ and the unions this week both sides appeared to have reached an agreement, but the offer endorsed by the unions was voted down when put to the members.
Air NZ said tonight it was disappointed the unions were not able to gain the support of their members.
The company said current strike actions and the action commencing tomorrow was at this stage not expected to impact its scheduled services, due to the airline's contingency planning.
Air NZ hoped to meet the unions again next week.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4550155a11.html



Also where are these newbees going to enter the company?????


Via an Application Form - Sorry just trying to be funny. apologies

The academy would work in partnership with other training organisations around the country to produce up to 300 pilots and engineers a year.

The curriculum was yet to be finalised, but it appears likely that students would first learn to fly a light aircraft with a partner flying school.
Air New Zealand would then fast-track their training as airline pilots in its own simulators.
"These people come through thinking like airline pilots when they first step into the cockpit."
Whether students would have to pay for their training was yet to be decided, but Morgan said trainee pilots already qualified for student loans.
Air New Zealand was also considering introducing a new multi-crew pilot's licence (MPL), which allows pilots to fly as a co-pilot, but not fly on their own.

Full article:

Pilot shortage prompts Air NZ aviation academy

Saturday, 17 May 2008


Air New Zealand plans to build an aviation academy in the face of a global shortage of pilots and engineers.

Now, the airline mainly recruits pilots who have built up experience flying with small airlines and then trains them to fly its planes.
But Air New Zealand general manager of airline operations and chief pilot David Morgan said the huge demand for pilots worldwide meant Air New Zealand had to develop a steady flow of talent to support its growth plans.
The academy was expected to open later next year and would take students from high school or tertiary education and train them to fly from scratch. The airline would continue to recruit qualified pilots.
The academy would work in partnership with other training organisations around the country to produce up to 300 pilots and engineers a year.
Training would also be provided for other Asia Pacific airlines, including cabin crew and specialist managers.
Morgan said its existing training facilities at Auckland International Airport would be expanded, or moved to another campus, including classrooms and additional simulators.
Air New Zealand will introduce a new fleet of Boeing 777-300ERs from 2010, followed by a fleet of Boeing 787 Dreamliners.
That growth, together with an ageing pilot workforce, meant the airline would need between 90 and 150 new pilots a year as the fleet grew, Morgan said.
Air New Zealand employs more than 1200 pilots across the group, including 860 in its jet fleet. Globally, airlines need about 17,000 new pilots a year, much of that driven by massive growth in India and China.
"We have got to get young people interested in aviation as a career, whether it be as a pilot, or just as importantly, as engineers and flight attendants," Morgan said.
The curriculum was yet to be finalised, but it appears likely that students would first learn to fly a light aircraft with a partner flying school.
Air New Zealand would then fast-track their training as airline pilots in its own simulators.
"These people come through thinking like airline pilots when they first step into the cockpit."
Whether students would have to pay for their training was yet to be decided, but Morgan said trainee pilots already qualified for student loans.
Air New Zealand was also considering introducing a new multi-crew pilot's licence (MPL), which allows pilots to fly as a co-pilot, but not fly on their own.
The licence has been introduced in Australia and Europe and significantly shortens the traditional training process.
Civil Aviation Authority spokesman Bill Sommers said the MPL licence was on a programme for approval next year.
Air New Zealand sacked about 300 engineers two years ago in a restructuring of its engineering business to keep heavy maintenance in-house.
Morgan said since the engineering business was put back on a competitive footing, it had attracted considerable work from other airlines, and was in a growth phase.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/4551360a6430.html

[komac2]

Whats going to happen to guys not yet in Air NZ or Link but are working their way up towards it? If NZ train their own and hire their 'own', will the guys that have paid their way and are still working their way through the NZ industry be left out or hung out to dry bacuase suddenly they wont get the opportunities that may have came up?

I'm talking about pilots btw. If thats the case, alot of us inexperienced CPLs wont get a shot or a chance when it comes our time to be in contention in a couple of years....


Link as above:
The academy was expected to open later next year and would take students from high school or tertiary education and train them to fly from scratch. The airline would continue to recruit qualified pilots

[Split Flap]

“The academy will form the basis of Air New Zealand’s long-term commitment to continuing to build a world-leading airline through a highly skilled and motivated workforce which sees real career prospects and a future in New Zealand.”

Can't say I have spoken to many motivated pilots or engineers lately. In fact most of the engineers hate the place.
Most of of the Air Nelson pilot workforce is activly disengaged and can't wait to leave to work for an Air NZ competitor of some sort. If Air Nelson was a commited employer perhaps it would make a commitment to pay it's staff the time and a half from the holidays act ruling. But no.

In fact I see no commitment at all, let alone "Long-term commitment" from Air NZ about many sections of it's workforce. In fact it looks like the Air NZ jet pilot group will have to take industrial action in order to get a clause in their contract that prevents them being outsourced.
But it's all sorted! A shiny flying school will have thousands queing to fly a shiny jet for less than the going rate. Just what the company wants. Nice. All fun and games till some pimply faced daddys boy with no experience smokes an engine. :{

My old man used to say to me you can't put an old head on young shoulders. That is exactly what is trying to be done here.

[DeltaT]

The MPL is already in Europe and gives an Airline a quick pilot with only some 50hrs real flying time, and the rest in the Simulator.
As for competing against them for entry into an Airline, there is that, but due to their low experience and the qualification, their progression would be slow and limiting. Which also brings to mind the question of how the Air NZ (main) seniority list works based on when you join the company when you have MPLs added in?!!
I would dare say MPLs will be in the Links for a long time.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Ultimately AirNZ will want these cadets to be Captains so I wonder how those on multi crew licences will get the minimum requirements for an ATPL? 250 PIC for example.

Straight from school to a flight school for a fast track CPL (150hrs I assume) then into sim training at AirNZ. They will not be able to log PIC in the sim as it will be a multi crew aircraft and don't you need an ATPL to act as PIC in a multi crew aircraft for hire and reward?

[komac2]

Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL)
What is the MPL?
The MPL allows a pilot to exercise the privileges of a co-pilot in a commercial air transportation on multi-crew aeroplanes. It provides the aviation community with an opportunity to train pilots directly for co-pilot duties. It is a new licence that has been introduced in addition to the existing pilot licences defined in Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing.
The licence focuses on ab initio airline pilot training. MPL training and assessment will be competency-based and involve a multi-crew environment and threat and error management from the onset. It provides for greater use of flight simulation training devices and include mandatory upset training. At this stage, only aeroplanes are considered for this new licence. The details of the requirements for the licence are contained in Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing and in the Procedures for Air Navigation Services — Training (PANS-TRG). These documents outline the minimum international Standard for the implementation of the MPL by any State; they can be purchased directly (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/m_publications.html) from ICAO through the Document Sales Unit ([email protected]).
Will the MPL be recognized by Contracting States?
As a licence defined by ICAO the MPL will be recognized by all ICAO Contracting States even by those that may decide not to establish an MPL as a licence within their own States. More details on the recognition of licences by other States can be found on the FAQ on "International recognition of flight crew licences" (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#10).
What is a multi-crew aeroplane?
It is an aeroplane that requires a flight crew of at least two pilots. One of them is the pilot-in-command (the captain) and the other is the co-pilot (or first officer). All jet air transport aeroplanes and the vast majority of turbine powered air transport aircraft and business jet are multi-crew aeroplanes. The definition in Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing states that it is: "an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot as specified in the flight manual or by the air operator certificate."
Do I have to hold a MPL to be a co-pilot on a muti-crew aeroplane?
No, the co-pilot on a multi-crew aeroplane can hold either a MPL or a CPL endorsed with an instrument rating and a type rating on a multi-crew aircraft.
What are the differences between the CPL and the MPL?
For the purposes of operating multi-crew aircraft, the privileges of a MPL are equivalent to those of CPL endorsed with an instrument rating and a type rating on a multi-crew aircraft. However, and because the MPL is geared toward operation of multi-crew airplane, an MPL pilot cannot generally fly on single pilot aeroplane without meeting additional requirements. For example, MPL holders cannot exercise the privileges of a CPL and instrument ratings on single pilot aeroplane without meeting specific actual flight time and flight instruction requirements.
A number of MPL courses may be a modification of the current JAA frozen ATPL or the Transport Canada and FAA CPL/Multi-engine training, but it is expected that the majority will follow the guidance proposed in the Procedures for Air Navigation Services — Training (PANS-TRG) document.
What are the minimum flight hours required for the MPL?
The ICAO Standard for the MPL specifies 240 hours as the minimum number of actual and simulated flight hours performing the functions of the pilot flying and the pilot non-flying. However, the Standard does not specify the breakdown between actual and simulated flight hours and thus allow part of the training curriculum that was traditionally conducted on aeroplane to be done on flight simulation training devices (FSTDs). However, there is a requirement that the applicant meets all the actual flying time for a private pilot licence plus additional actual flying time in instrument, night flying and upset recovery.
Why was the MPL established?
The MPL was established to respond to the growing demand in the aviation training community that felt that the current regulatory regime that dictated a large number of flying hours in solo and on a smaller aircraft was not the most efficient and safe way to train pilots for copilot duties on jet transport aircraft.
Further, there was some perceived negative training in the apprenticeship model that was first developed for flight training in the post second world war era. A number of training organizations and airlines were adamant that modern training techniques and research into the use of modern training devices such as flight simulation training devices needed to be recognized within the ICAO licensing structure. The ICAO Air Navigation Commission formed a Flight Crew Licensing and Training Panel to explore the options and opportunities to address the shortcomings of some current licensing requirements. The competency-based concept and the MPL licence were the outcome of that panel's deliberations.
How can the MPL be implemented?
ICAO has developed the Procedures for Air Navigation Services — Training (PANS-TRG) document to support the implementation of the MPL and will monitor developments in this area through a proof of concept programme. This programme will involve stakeholders from regulatory bodies and industry. In addition, an Air Training Organization must meet the prescribed organizational standards which are also outlined in Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing and the Procedures for Air Navigation Services — Training (PANS-TRG).
What is the status of the MPL regulatory provisions?
The ICAO Council adopted the provisions related to the MPL as part of Amendment 167 to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing on 10 March 2006. The new provisions will become applicable on 23 November 2006.

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#31

07 update:

MPL proof-of-concept initiative seeks high quality data
The initial results of multi-crew pilot licence (MPL) training programmes around the world will be carefully monitored by ICAO to assess whether there is a requirement to expand or improve on the current guidance material. Under the proof-of-concept project, protected information concerning the performance of trainees during and following the MPL training programme will be forwarded to ICAO by licensing authorities so that the organization can evaluate the existing MPL programme requirements and documentation on a periodic basis. The measure is intended to safeguard the long-term integrity of the multi-crew pilot licence.
The quality of the data supplied to ICAO, especially in the early years of the MPL programme's implementation, will prove crucial to the further development of guidance material. A letter issued by the organization in June 2007 provides States with specific guidelines for gathering these data in a harmonized manner. The dataset definition was achieved through a cooperative effort involving ICAO, State regulators, the airline industry and pilot representatives.
Standardized forms have been developed for collecting precise information in four specific areas. In addition to details about State regulations and the oversight of MPL licences, the forms request information on each MPL training programme offered by an approved training organization, the performance of each trainee, and the initial operational evaluation of each MPL holder. The identity of individual trainees will be protected by designating an identification number for tracking individual records for the purpose of analysis.
ICAO anticipates receiving information on State regulations and oversight of MPL licences by October 2007. The evaluation of other MPL data is expected to commence in late 2008.
An article about the MPL programme, contributed by the International Air Transport Association (IATA), appears in ICAO Journal (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/jr/jr.cfm) Issue 3/2007 ("MPL represents a state-of-the-art ab initio airline pilot training programme," pp 33-34), and is available at the ICAO website.

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/osg/epo/updates/index.html

[komac2]

I think CTC's been sniffing around....I think they've been developing a CRM course for Eagle??


Probably way off track here- Apologies in advance :

The airline has contracted a UK based company, CTC Aviation to provide training to both new recruits and Flight Service Managers.
"CTC specialises in aircrew training and their instructors are qualified in Crew Resource Management, a qualification approved by the UK Civil Aviation authority," said Ed Sims, Group General Manager International Airline.
"The delivery of high standards of customer service is key to the success of Air New Zealand and our crew receive sound training in a number of fields.

Our relationship with CTC will enable us to have our London-based crew trained locally which is more efficient than using our training staff from Auckland and will reduce the costs of introducing the new service," he
said.
http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/aboutus/mediacentre/pressreleases_2006/air_nz_trains_new_cabin_crew.htm

[Sqwark2000]

Ultimately AirNZ will want these cadets to be Captains so I wonder how those on multi crew licences will get the minimum requirements for an ATPL? 250 PIC for example.

I dare say that MPL holders will not being recruited as future captains but as cheap, second officer type employee with very limiting career progression unless MPL holder upgrades to a full license such as a CPL and/or ATPL. (at their own cost I'd guess)

S2K

[SkySurfin]

This is certainly an interesting move by Air NZ. They say the academy will help meet the shortage of pilots, but I find that hard to believe. Air New Zealand Jet group is hardly screaming out for guys, and even if they were there is always an excess of suitably qualified pilots around NZd to employ. A pilot shortage is definitley not the reason why they have set this up. As someone said in a previous post, by bringing their own pilots through they will be able to have better control over them (terms and conditions of employment will be tightned no doubt). This certainly doesnt look good for guys trying to get into AirNZ from regionals and GA etc. Im sure requirements will become more stringent and specific. Aviation is heading down the road where airlines percieve management as being more important than manipulative skills. I guess this is somewhat justfied with the advancement in more automated aircraft such as the 777 and more specifically the 787. Requirements for employment are already leaning towards management qualifications and I think we will see more of this in the future.
Im still a believer though that you cant beat good experience, and thats where airlines will suffer by introducing cadet type systems like this.

[Hanz Blix]

SKY SURFIN
This is exactly my point, I'm not really one of dooms day people but this doesn't look good. Looks more like a way to control the union:confused:

KOMAC2

You tried to answers one of my questions but where way off. Where are the cadets entering Air NZ? Eagle, Nelson, Cook or Jets????? I can only imagine how those you have applications in with mainline will feel being skipped by a 250 hour cadet.


This whole thing is shaping up to be a brilliant stuff up unless thought through properly.
As for staff moral and being an "Air New Zealander", this will see all moral and good will vanish unless they respect there current staff and lay it all out on the table.

Lets hope they do that

[komac2]

Cheers Hanz Blix - sorry about that re: Application was just being a dick,

[ZKSUJ]

Hanz Bliz. I agree with you there, it would seem very 'unfair' to those guys applying to mainline to be overtaken by a cadet with a tenth of your experience.

I just hope this does not really disadvantage people in GA right now, working hard and building up time to apply to Link or mainline in a few years.

I understand that NZ would only pick the best of the best for their courses, but I'm sure many will feel disheartened should it get to a situation where they have stuck around for a few years in GA and are suddenly told 'they may not be in contention'.

I'm talking about worse case scenario obviously and hopefully it will not get to that. As it has been pointed out in page one, they will still take qualified pilots, but I hope this doesnt stop.

[horserun]

I wonder what ALPAs stance on this is..

If some cadet is being paid F**k all at the cost of a second officer, some of the boys may put down their tools.

If Air NZ is allowed to do this, its just going to f**k it for everyone.

[Sqwark2000]

Heard from a good source that at a recent AirnZ (Jet)Check captains meeting, the MPL issue was brought up and there is plenty of resistance about letting MPL's participate on their flight decks.

Also figures of 140 pilots/year for 4 or so years to come is what Air NZ is looking at in terms of recruiting.

Apparantly no Link training managers were involved in discussions about forming the Acadamy and how grad's would be integrated.

Will be interesting to see how it progresses.

S2K

[propaganda]

Air NZ are simply fishing - there's been little or no consultation with the Flight training providers, nor Links operators. I have to disagree with some of your sentiments on Cadets.It's a myth that some how they're not up to the job. With the correct training they're equal if not better than a DEP with lots of bad habbits and baggage from a 3 rd level TP operator. I would imagine the cadets would enter Air NZ via the Links and then progress onto mainline.
I would also not expect to see any Air NZ cadets for at least 2 yrs.

[Cypher]

With the correct training they're equal if not better than a DEP with lots of bad habbits and baggage from a 3 rd level TP operator. I would imagine the cadets would enter Air NZ via the Links and then progress onto mainline.


Yeah, lots of bad habits like, been able to think for themselves, making decisions under high pressure, and being experienced with CRM and it's implementation..:rolleyes:


Sorry, I'm starting to sound like a airline pilot......

[NoseGear]

I'm with you Cypher, I was just waiting for someone to trot out that old "bad habits" line:yuk::ugh:

What, exactly, propaganda do you mean by bad habits? I've posed this question before in another discussion and no one ever answered.....can't imagine why?:suspect:

Nosey

[komac2]

they came out with Air NZ academy on friday and put out this press release today(sunday).

Air New Zealand eyes flight cutbacks

By GARRY SHEERAN - Sunday Star Times | Sunday, 18 May 2008

Air New Zealand could be cutting back on the frequency of many long-haul routes by the year's end as the global airline industry braces itself for a downturn that could prove worse than the fallout from the September 11 attacks on New York.

Air New Zealand chief executive Rob Fyfe says high fuel prices and the malaise affecting the US airline industry which is now spreading to Asia-Pacific means "we are entering very difficult times financially".
"If demand starts to reduce, we can see by the end of this year aircraft having to be parked up on the ground," he says.
Already, seven US airlines have collapsed in the past four months.
But unlike 2001-02 when the national air carrier almost went broke Fyfe believes Air NZ is in great shape to weather the storm.
"To be honest, I am sitting here rubbing my hands, looking forward to what lies ahead," he says. "We couldn't be in better shape."
The airline had a cash surplus of more than $1 billion which would allow it to cope with market downturns, and was running a conservative balance sheet.
"We have got out of loss-making long-haul routes, and we are the market share leader on all those we now fly," he says.
"We also have no extra aircraft coming on stream so we are not going to be trying to load capacity into a soft market."
Fyfe also believes Air NZ's ability to survive will in large measure depend on a revolution he has been quietly driving within the airline itself since he became chief executive in 2005.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4552578a13.html

[propaganda]

Bad Habits are just that mate..Ok a reply:}

[mattyj]

..Bad habits-rubbing up some grizzly old vet the wrong way on your first day. Making the coffee wrong..taking the wrong sandwiches..that sort of thing.
CRM..just a fancy pants, expensive and time consuming way of saying "don't be a dork in the cockpit"

[fly real fast]

From the study produced by 4 people, 2 i can confirm are pilots (jet) for Air NZ, not sure on the other two.

Graduating students from the cadetship would move directly into the third seat of a wide-body air New Zealand jet to gain familiarity with the working of the multi-crew operation. Whilst in receipt of a TRAINING salary, these second officers would not be type-rated or be listed on the company seniority list. From there, they would be employed into the Air New Zealand Group as a first officer on the turbo-prop fleet and issued with a seniorty number.

For the cadets, their "return of service" would start at the point of employment as a first officer. If the airline had contributed to the cost of the training this return of service would be completed at a reduced salary, in order for the company recoup the financial cost of the training. It is envisaged that the cadetship programme will take three years to complete from the commencement of training to completion of year one as a second officer.

the study goes on to state that there will be one interview for all the Air Nz group and you end up on a combined seniorty list.

[hot tuna]

Sounds like the old days. Cadet S/O's who sat on their hands for a year or so, watching, listening and learning- only difference they were paid at the normal rates. :=
Anymore on where these ab-initio cadets will be trained.

[fly real fast]

Learn't more about the source of my information. It was completed by the pilots who are/were doing this Air NZ MBA type course on their days off. Find it interesting these pilots are doing the work of some beancounter to get an "Air NZ MBA" which no one else in the world would recognise. Then again, It is definately better them than employing another beancounter who adds no value to the company:}

[Sqwark2000]

frf,

Have put in a application to join the Koru MBA course but it has been delayed twice due lack of interest, main reason was lack of real qualification at end of the tunnel. The scheme organisers delayed it 6 months in feb to get it into the NZQA framework so it may gain better buy in from the group pilots. Waiting til Aug to see if anything comes of it....

I've read the same report and was impressed with the options that were suggested. The cadetship and internship on the longhaul fleet before 1st turbo-prop assignment is right out of the report. Can't remember seeing the training pay thing but it's not an uncommon practice in the AirNZ group.

Extending the Group Opportunities list to the Links is another recommendation to try and gain some stability by giving all group pilots a more concrete career path/progression.

S2K

[belowMDA]

My two guesses about the makeup of the "academy" are this: It will be self funded, and there will be a room somewhere in the school, resembling a church. However instead of worshiping a false god (aren't they all?) you worship Captain Morgan and his merry bunch of sycophants including the likes of Chris K etc. There may even be a box of tissues so that you can have a quiet spank over the thought of one day getting to ride the back seat on one of those rare occasions the big M goes flying.

[komac2]

waikato times can probably dream but anyway:

Air academy may take off in Waikato

The Waikato is being eyed by Air New Zealand as a possible site for a new aviation academy.

The facility, to be set up by the end of the year, would train pilots, cabin crew, engineers and specialist airline management staff.
Air New Zealand is scouting for locations and confirmed Waikato was one area it was looking at.
If it went ahead, it would be a major boost for the Waikato aviation industry, with up to 300 pilots and engineers going through each year.
Hamilton International Airport is an obvious regional location with aviation-related industry already established there, including major pilot trainer CTC Aviation.
Air New Zealand general manager airline operations and chief pilot David Morgan said the plan was to establish the academy in partnership with industry, offering people the ability to train at different locations around the country.
Airport chief executive Chris Doak said any discussion about establishing training facilities would be held between the airline and the training organisations on site.
Captain Morgan said the academy was being set up to ensure the steady flow of local talent into Air New Zealand and other airlines within the Asia Pacific region.
"The academy will form the basis of Air New Zealand's long-term commitment.''
As well as providing training for those starting out, Captain Morgan said the academy would provide support and training for staff moving through their careers, including aircraft type rating and simulator training.
He estimated the airline would need between 90 and 150 new pilots a year as the fleet grew.
Air New Zealand is in discussion with potential partners.
The Katolyst Group chief executive Graham Smith welcomed news Hamilton was among possible sites.
"It would definitely build on existing capabilities that are here now,'' Mr Smith said.
"We're making inquiries as to how we could facilitate that further. Certainly we're trying to speak to all the right people to advance the region.''
CTC Aviation New Zealand chief executive John Jones said "airspace troubles'' could be an issue, but those problems were not limited to Hamilton.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikatotimes/4554500a6004.html

[SkySurfin]

Looks like CTC are going to be the ones who get the nod then.
I still can't see though where they are getting the idea they need 100 pilots a year from. Maybe this figure includes all the link companies? But then thats probably on the lean side of things. I will be very suprised if Air NZ jet group give starts to more than 30 guys this year. From what Ive heard over the last few weeks is that they may look at reducing sectors and parking some of the 747s to save fuel, also putting the 777 through HK to London. I cant see much more recruiting this year or next, unles fuel prices slow. Adding to the problem is that in the next few months Air NZs current fuel hedge expires, this is going to result in a HUGE increase in their fuel costs.
So maybe the focus of the flight school will be to train students for overseas airlines, where the is defintley a huge demand at present.

[mattyj]

Isn't it great when you're idling at $30 a minute, holding point alpha HN waiting to get a word in edgeways so you can backtrack to line up (with paying customers in the back) while those twin sewing machines hog the airwaves..its going bananas up there lately!

[toolowtoofast]

I hear there is some discussion about sealing the grass 36/18 vector - opposite circuit directions, long enough for the twin stars to float down, (i've heard 1000m banded about), and hopefully an ability to load the circuits up.

[slackie]

2low2fast...what? And the circuits are ALREADY loaded up??? It is now unusual to have no-one in the circuit anytime between first light and off watch at 8:30pm...there are usually at 2 and often 4 or more bashing the circuit...it still surprises me to hear "CT? request 2 hours circuits". What the hell are you going to learn doing circuits for 2 hours??

[kiwi22]

Probably worth the airport company looking at a parallel taxiway on the eastern side of the main runway. May I suggest that to get a normal 1 hours worth of circuits done, someone needs to request 2 hours worth if flying at Hamilton?

[ops.normal]

Probably worth the airport company looking at a parallel taxiway on the eastern side of the main runway. May I suggest that to get a normal 1 hours worth of circuits done, someone needs to request 2 hours worth if flying at Hamilton?

:D Absolutely. Would certainly help the exodus of 1900s, Q300s and ATRs in the morning (especially with a third Beech based in HLZ now) - it's a bit primitive having one taxiway for an international/busy training airport...

[jtn747]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering if anyone knows when Air NZ actually plan to start training pilots through the academy? One press release said later next year but another has said by the end of this year...was planning on getting stuck in to training as soon as i finish uni in July but may hold off a bit to see what happens with this. Also, do you think getting a PPL before applying would be a help or hindrance? Thanks!

[devolved]

From what i've heard over the RT, when they request 2 hours of CTs. 1st hour is dual, 2nd is solo. HN is struggling to cope now, not to mention the airspace above it, absolute fight to get a slot.

[threecombs]

Hey JTN747,

Here's a piece of free advice u may or may not want!

Get your ass down to the local aeroclub, ask the nice instructor for a
CPL/IFR rating. Then call in to see every G/A operator u can think of and beg them to let u wash their aircraft. After a while u may even fly them, give yourself a few scares, get a thousand hours in your log book!
Then rock yourself down to Nelson, fly a dash 8 for two years
( if you've got half a brain you'll stay well away from Eagle )
Then AND ONLY THEN, try your luck with Air New Zealand or the equivalent of and those of us that have had to do exactly that, may just have enough respect to let you touch more than just the push to talk button!!!!

[horserun]

Couldnt have siad it better:D:D

There is no easy way jtn747..... Go use your your degree to get a good job and start saving for your CPL.

Remember...If you skip GA you wont have any stories to spin at the bar:ok:

[27/09]

( if you've got half a brain you'll stay well away from Eagle )


threecombs

Would you care to explain. Always thought that from the guys and girls I had spoken with that Eagle was a good place to start out along the way to a jet job. Perhaps the info I have is wrong.

[always inverted]

Yeah whats with the eagle bashing again... Are you a shiny new nsn f/o with his/her head firmly shoved up...
Whats wrong with eagle, arent we supposed to be on same side. Pull ya head in mate.
Nsn's management aint any better than Eagles at the moment.

[captncannot]

Threecombs: Hey JTN747,

Here's a piece of free advice u may or may not want!

Get your ass down to the local aeroclub, ask the nice instructor for a
CPL/IFR rating. Then call in to see every G/A operator u can think of and beg them to let u wash their aircraft. After a while u may even fly them, give yourself a few scares, get a thousand hours in your log book!
Then rock yourself down to Nelson, fly a dash 8 for two years
( if you've got half a brain you'll stay well away from Eagle )
Then AND ONLY THEN, try your luck with Air New Zealand or the equivalent of and those of us that have had to do exactly that, may just have enough respect to let you touch more than just the push to talk button!!!!

Hard to imagine that being advice anyone in JTN's position would want!

Threecombs, who knows, perhaps the guy thinks that "begging" is beneath him?

Since when did "begging" become a requirement to become a pilot?
(and its such a puzzle why kids don't aspire to become pilots anymore :rolleyes:)

He has a realistic shot at getting AirNZ to pay for all his ab initio training! :ok: But your advice is what, to pay for all his own training and then whore himself out to work for free in GA???? Followed by what, buying a jet type rating I suppose? WHY???? (and hey I'm not knocking that but if you don't have to, I mean, really... :confused:)

Very strange sense of perspective you got there mate!!

The rest of the world has been hiring fresh CPLs as jet FOs ever since the 707.

Or did some Grade 3 pimple face actually get you believing you need 2,000TT to fly a jet?

JTN747, go for it! you're joining the industry at a time when it's never been easier to get a decent job. Getting a PPL before you finish uni would probly be a very good idea. Then if AirNZ cadet doesn't work out, you can go the traditional route, or get the military to pay for it, or fall back on your degree!

Just do yourself a favour and never ever work for free, despite what some may recommend - it just isn't acceptable, in any circumstance, ever. :=

[horserun]

Hey Captncannot,

I think Threecombs wasn't implying this young lad should go out there and work for free, but rather he should roll up his sleeves and start the hard work form the bottom like we all did.

Also there is no way in hell Air New Zealnd is going to give these academy guys a single hour for free. They will have to pay for it with a big student loan!

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Hey heres a thought. Whats the chance of Air NZ tying in the cost of a Beech or Dash rating into the cost of the Academy course? This could be some round about way of forcing pilots to pay or their ratings?

[mattyj]

Some of us that did time in GA just worked for years at subsistance pay levels for operators that will never be able to replace the aircraft they operate when they run out of hours. The GA industry is on borrowed time IMHO. That hoary old chesnut of "doing your time" has had its day. Besides, you can only do SPIFR now if you have 750TT which is impossible for most new CPLs.

Why not take a quick, easier route if its available. If you're smart and talented enough to fly for the airlines then you deserve to get payed an honest wage!!

[jtn747]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Good to hear some different perspectives. Just to make it clear, i am willing to do whatever it takes to reach my goals, and if that means taking the GA route then i am more than happy to do that, i am in no way against doing the hard yards. I just want to explore all my options, and the AirNZ academy seems like it could be a great opportunity, but obviously this depends on all of the conditions which are attached! Any more advice would be really appreciated :)

[captncannot]

horserun:
I think Threecombs wasn't implying this young lad should go out there and work for free, but rather he should roll up his sleeves and start the hard work form the bottom like we all did.

Well it sure sounds to me like he advocates begging to work for free washing someone's aircraft! apologies to 3C if that isn't the case.

This self flagellating 'do your time' mindset does seem to be unique to Australia and NZ. Pilots in other parts of the world would turn their noses up at the crap on offer in Australasian GA, so you can't blame the guy exploring the alternatives.

With AirNZ talking up a cadet scheme why would someone want to start from the bottom when you may soon be able to start in the middle? AirNZ obviously recognise this, and they get an employee with so much to lose they probably wont leave anytime soon. With a cushy turboprop ride after a year of sleeping in the jumpseat on a widebody, presumably getting paid considerably more than any NZ GA job in the process? NZ GA operators may be about to discover the true impact of 'pilot shortage', they really have absolutely nothing to offer in such a hot job market. Depending on the terms of the cadetship of course, I'm assuming here, probably incorrectly, that cadets won't be charged money for the privilege..

JTN, if you end up going the GA route your fastest option is to get out of NZ anyway. Australia, South Pacific, Africa, the Caribbean and the U.S all offer Kiwis much better contracts with a lot more flying. Very few NZ GA jobs offer anywhere remotely near 1000 hours per year and none of them that I've ever heard of pay what operators elsewhere will offer you (in fact most of them still won't even offer to pay a salary!)

[Steve Zissou]

There's other ways to get an airline job if you don't have either smarts or talent mattyj, trust me. Gulp :eek:

[mattyj]

what did you swallow!?:eek:

[Steve Zissou]

My pride:sad:

[horserun]

Captncannot: Very few NZ GA jobs offer anywhere remotely near 1000 hours per year and none of them that I've ever heard of pay what operators elsewhere will offer you (in fact most of them still won't even offer to pay a salary!)

Mate, If disco bay is short for discovery bay in hong knog, then Im going to assume it has been a while since you have been back home to NZ.

A brand new C cat can walk strainght into some sweet little paying jobs these days (sure some of the CTC lads can give you the pay rates).
The employment scene really changed in NZ about this time last, (not to the exteme as some of those countrys you mentioned though) Pac Blue will look at you once you hit 1000 hours, and even Qantas link is taking a lot of low time kiwi GA boys and girls.

Jtn747 you have the right attitude mate, and Im sure you will go far. Your getting into aviation at a great time, but remeber there is no shame in being paied to load bags or scrub bogs to get your foot in the door. Most of us did it.

[mattyj]

there IS shame, but most of us did it:O

[captncannot]

horserun, thats great news! you're right, I'm a long way out of GA, and very happy to hear they're actually paying people now. In my GA days there was a large number of losers whoring themselves out for free. Made it very tough for those of us with an ounce of self respect :rolleyes: so when someone advises a low hour pilot to go and beg to be allowed to wash an aircraft, with the inference that they won't be paid for doing so, that really grates on me.

[bin b'archin]

So where are all the instructors for these cadets going to come from? I mean seriously no one is going to be "stupid" enough to become an instructor when they can go directly into an airline...? Or will the "drop out" airline cadets become instructors to train the other airline cadets? :ugh: :ok:

[cutter2]

Too many in HAM circuit now. On a good day Airways a bit rushed, dosent help controllers that dont fly or have an interst in aviation other than $$$. Big flight schools talk too much on the radio with stuff unimportant to the job.I get sick of it on busy day, dont know how controllers keep it together.:ugh::ok:

[toolowtoofast]

Actually some of the controllers DO fly, and have a genuine interest in aviation (not to mention your safety). The issue of having HLZ as a training airfield may need to be addressed, but controllers have to train somewhere! Being held outside the zone for 10 minutes, near misses in the circuit due 5 or 6 circuiting/coming/going, and some ESOL issues are no fun for anyone.

[Airpushenbacken]

Yep I'm with you toolowtoofast, Give the controllers at Hamilton a break. Its busy airspace now. There is not a controller out there that i don't know, and they all do the job because they love it and all do it to the best of there ability. Range of experience varies and you get it with time!!!! How good a pilot were you after only 2 years etc. Let me guess cutter2! been the industry a long time, think everyone should jump through hooops with years of training before they are aloud to operate in "our" elitist world we call aviation, whether it be as pilots or ATCO......Bolocks. Its Hamilton get a grip. Its a great training place all round. I wish some of us pilots would stop trying to turn flying aeroplanes into something other than just a big fun game.