Another Qantaslink 717 Heavy Landing?

[victor two]

Speaking to a friend who flew Qlink into Alice Springs yesterday 14/08/2008 who said that the landing in Alice was disturbingly hard and resulted in the airport emergency vehicles responding and following the aircraft back to the apron. Lots of very shaken passengers and the follow-on service to Perth was cancelled due to serviceability issues.

Didn't a similar thing occur in Darwin recently with major damage to airfarme and structures?

[Capn Bloggs]

Didn't a similar thing occur in Darwin recently with major damage to airfarme and structures?
Not that I recall. Did I miss something?

[Jabawocky]

Testing the repairs perhaps???:}

J:E

[Milt]

Blind Freddy knows that there is a serious decline in handling skills by airline pilots who have been conned into doing most of their flying using knobs and switches. Blame it on the quality of simulators and avionic automatics aided and abetted by the airline bean counters.

How long before the regulators stipulate a reasonable proportion of hands on controlling to preserve your skills and what, say you, is a reasonable proportion?

Is 25% enough?

[smartalec888]

The a/c was ferried to Perth and is still u/s. The local news reported it as "another heavy landing by B717 by NJS". Wonder if its worth continuing the contract with NJS if this is going to kep happenning?

[The Bunglerat]

Milt, whilst I hear what you're saying about hands-on flying, unless the company's SOP's include autolands, EVERY landing is going to be hand-flown - irrespective of how much automation is used in other phases of flight. As such, their drivers would be getting no more or less opportunity to maintain their skills than any other operator.

[Capn Bloggs]

aided and abetted by the airline bean counters.
It's got nothing to do with the beancounters and all to do with the culture of letting the jet fly the magenta line - to their cost.

Get your HOTAS you lot before something REALLY serious happens (or GD takes them off you). :=

[Skystar320]

Quote:
aided and abetted by the airline bean counters.

It's got nothing to do with the beancounters and all to do with the culture of letting the jet fly the magenta line - to their cost.

Get your HOTAS you lot before something REALLY serious happens (or GD takes them off you).

Did someone delete a post?

[Mail-man]

Yeah, NJS 717 grounded all day in alice, apparantly hard landing. Onward flight was cancelled just before engineers finished their inspections. (by the by, Alice was crystal clear with no wind yesterday morn)
Another NJS 717 had a crease in the rear fuselage after heavy landing in Darwin a few months ago.
All heresay, 2nd hand info etc.
Regards
Postman

[Teal]

Didn't a similar thing occur in Darwin recently with major damage to airfarme and structures?Yes, there was a heavy landing by a 717 on 10 February in Darwin. It was reported that Qantas eventually flew out a repair team from Seattle.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,26058,23199958-5014090,00.html

[sky surfer]

what's the experience level of the tec crew? One would expect the capt. would have a fair bit of exp. what of the f.o. I was told alot the f.o's were very shy on experience. can anyone confirm. :ok:

[RENURPP]

Keep in mind the crew have no way of determining whether a landing is a "hard landing" or not.

On landing a 717, you will know you are on the ground every time.

If you have any doubts as to whether your landing would be considered a 'hard landing" you write it up. Even though it was written up as a hard landing doesn't actually mean it was a hard landing.
How many Pilots have landed and not been happy with their landing and simply continue on with the next sector?

I know when i did my training at Jetstar that’s exactly what we did :O

Re the experience, not on this particular flight but in general, the F/O's vary from 10,000+ to around 3000hrs I believe. I don't think there are many with less. Having said that some F/O's have only piston time on recruitment.

[victor two]

Thanks for the clarification to all who have responded.

cheers

[RENURPP]

There were no emergency vehicles as was suggested by Victor Two's friend, that is pure crap. Your friend is totally unreliable. the aircraft was never scheduled to continue onto Perth :ugh:

The data removed from the aircraft indicated that it was not a heavy handing, it was a conservative approach by the Pilots to a possible hard landing. Although an inspection was carried out, the end result was that it didn't require one.

[Skystar320]

Think someone want's to dig more crap up on Qantas - get over it people :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Windshear]

Bloggs it was good training for the Rudd budget ... firm and fair :(:(

[Mr Maverick]

Me mate's friend's cousin, who knows the Townsville refueller, intimately, has told the refueller, who's told the cousin, who's told me mate's friend, who's told me mate, who's told me, that its the trolley dolly's what decide if a landing's hard, not the tekies. :eek:

[A37575]

Blame it on the quality of simulators and avionic automatics

Milt. The quality of the simulators is generally very good and so are the avionics automatics. The problem as I see it, is that the various airline syllabus of simulator training accents almost blind use of automatics for even circuits. Type rating training as well as continuation training hammers away at knob twiddling, button pushing and heads down programming right from the new pilots first simulator trip.

Dedicated sessions on circuits and landings (hand flown, no automatics including no flight directors) are in many cases simply not considered necessary by the airline flight standards people. CASA FOI tend to go along with whatever the airline people want. Airline simulators are excellent for landing training and should be used much more for crosswind landings, black hole approaches and so on until the student is thoroughly competent at accurate flare technique. But it doesn't happen because the syllabus of training rarely ever allows the time. But it sure allows the time for automatics and time wasting en-route LOFT exercises with exotic scenarios but very little, if any, real hands on flying near the ground

Until a serious attempt to hone piloting skills at landings in the simulator becomes a priority during the teaching of new pilots before line flying occurs, then expect bone jarring assault landings by new pilots under line training with passengers aboard

[ules]

a friend of mine is an AME, for jetstar, he did work for the 717 with the crease, apparently its the same aircraft, that had the 1st hard landing, only this time the front end is damaged appears the aircraft was stalled from 8 - 10 metres high . they paid a team from boeing to repair the first one. build a hangar around the plane on the apron, and now its almost totalled again. lol is it the qantas link pilot ? or wat is goin on with these hard landings are they just forgeting to fly ?

[Capt Claret]

and now its almost totalled again

Damned Boeing repair guys. Obviously they couldn't lie straight in bed. They told us it was no where near the worst that they had seen, or repaired. Never mentioned it was a near write-off.

[Milt]

A37575

Misunderstanding - sorry. I should have said "Blame it on the excellent quality and precission of simulators and avionic automatics for the decline in hands on pilot skills."

The stage has been reached where I will be a most apprehensive passenger if the pilot has to resort to his/her residual hands on skills.

I am now hearing from ATCoes that many airline pilots are increasingly reluctant to accept procedures which involve any reasonable handling skills not employing automatics.

The military are somewhat better off as they still have to perform a high proportion of non automatic manoeuvering.

Manual take offs and landings will be with us for some time yet however we are already seeing an increasing number of incidents/accidents in these areas.

[Capt Claret]

I am now hearing from ATCoes that many airline pilots are increasingly reluctant to accept procedures which involve any reasonable handling skills not employing automatics.

To some degree the statement could be misleading. There's a northern port, where it's not unknown to be offered a visual approach to a 3 or 5 nm final once established on the STAR.

Acceptance reduces track miles by about 25. It can be done, but it mightn't be a pleasant ride for the pax, even though the boys & girls up front are having a hoot of a time! :E

[ITCZ]

I am now hearing from ATCoes that many airline pilots are increasingly reluctant to accept procedures which involve any reasonable handling skills not employing automatics.

Milt:

That has everything to do with the difficulty of flying an aeroplane 'through' an FMS computer rather than direct manipulation ---- and very little to do with a lack of 'reasonable handling skills.'

Before we get too precious about ATCO perceptions of ATPL skills, might I remark that up to 6 years ago, if I needed a change of level, a block level, or off-airway tracking, most sector controllers would advise INSTANTLY if the level, or the block, or the diversion was available.

Now, under TAATS, we now instruct our newly minted jet driver colleagues to anticipate that such requests will always be met with "Shagtastic 666, STAND BY" and a 30s to 3min delay before one can expect an answer.

Level changes and diverson requests are usually made to (a) avoid hazardous wx (b) give the paying pax a better ride or (c) save the planet by using less dinosaur juice etc.

The skies haven't changed, but the introduction of TAATS and its computerised interface has changed things. Controllers no longer provide instant answers or options to help us solve our problems. Automating the system makes it less flexible in some ways.

So, to counter the new problem of uncertainty and system bottlenecks, we ask for block levels instead of a simple level change, bigger block levels, and bigger diversions. Hows that for increased efficiency in use of airspace?:ouch:

On the subject of handling skills and automated flight decks...

Jet RPT pilots still have to demonstrate a high level of hand flying skills every three or six months in their visits to the sim. In fact, a recent UK CAA paper on cockpit automation issues remarked how out of date most national regulators are, by requiring airline pilots to demonstrate proficiency in hand flying normal and abnormal exercises (EFATO, engine inop approaches, landings, missed approaches)!

We ATPLs are still hand-flying the same demanding sim sequences twice a year, as our grandfathers did on DC-9's and Boeing 'Classics.' The regulator requires it. Instrumentation has changed, but it is still power+attitude=airspeed. And the wash-out rate is no different to thirty years ago.

Automation degradation of skills is an issue, and plenty of eggheads and industry think tanks have been studying it since the introduction of the MD-80, B767 and A320. But that is not what your ATCOs are seeing on their TAATS screens.

The same research papers and industry journals that describe automation degradation of flying skills, also point out that the FMS' designers models for efficient automatic flight do not deal very well with dynamic ATC environments. They require workarounds and 'tricks' to meet some requirements, and are just plain incompatible when it comes to others.

We have the same problem a TAATS operator has. Flying an aeroplane through an FMS in the cruise is a doddle. But in the terminal area, it is actually HARDER than "poling" it through the sky. FMS's are computers, and computers have restrictive interfaces plagued by arcane input rules and internal logic.

A good pilot of a glass cockpit has not replaced his or her skills with 'computer programming'. Thats an urban myth.

The truth is that proper use of automation sits on top of stick 'n rudder/raw data/hand flying/guidance control panel flying skills previously learned. A glass cockpit actually makes greater demands on a pilot's procedural and declarative knowledge and skills than a 'steam driven' aeroplane. There are more things to practice and remain proficient in, with the same number of sectors in which to practice them.

It was a fine day in YSSY today - anybody operate Director? If you did, just about every glass cockpit jet you sequenced today would NOT have been on full automatics. The pilots would have been running their own vertical plot to the runway, noting where they were in the sequence, V/S-ing to adjust vertical path, overriding FMS generated speeds to comply with local rules and not close in on the preceding, adjusting track etc.

So lets not have a bunch of ATCoes mistake the Pilot v FMS battles as an indicator of loss of manipulative skill.

We are still passing the same sim checks that grandad had to pass!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

We are still passing the same sim checks that grandad had to pass!

...... but how many DC9's did Grandad's mob break?

Dr :8

[Capn Bloggs]

ITCZ,

Theoretically nice. Practically, not very real-world. HOTAS skills have plummeted. One of the reasons (IMO the MAIN reason) why aircraft are being "crashed" onto the ground. Why? Because not enough emphasis is being placed on HOTAS.

a recent UK CAA paper on cockpit automation issues remarked how out of date most national regulators are, by requiring airline pilots to demonstrate proficiency in hand flying normal and abnormal exercises (EFATO, engine inop approaches, landings, missed approaches)!

I flatly reject that notion. Those POMS have lost touch with reality. The fact is that increasing numbers of first, second and third world accidents and near accidents are occurring because of an increasing lack of piloting skills caused by the perception that I must use the automatics and therefore pilots don't get enough practice at reverting to and using HOTAS.

The proof is in the pudding. Tell your FO, at 20 track miles, to disconnect the AP, turn off his VNAV and do the approach raw data and see what happens.

Although raw data is not used often, until you can guarantee me that I will never have to use it ever again, then we must practice it - often (not once every 6 months in the SIM)! Of course, none of this is rocket science - it is all about company management captured by the shiny new toy syndrome and not insisting on more HOTAS practice. But our crews are so inexperienced that it'll be dangerous! Well, train them properly and make them practice to build their skills up!

HOTAS = Hands on throttle and stick but also includes raw data automatics flying.

[Kangaroo Court]

At an air carrier I worked for, we were told to hand fly one approach with no FD or automated data, couple one approach and then fly the third in sequence as a hand flown procedure using FCC/FMS cues.

Seems to work pretty well. I still do it in this operation as well.

Bloggs, I hate to break your heart, but some F/Os recently have been telling me about captains that couldn't fly there way down a twenty mile straight in final in CAVOK.

[nig&nog]

To get back on to the thread again my flat mate said that it wasnt a hard landing into Alice last week but was very close.

[SHAGGS]

It think this thread has ran out of steam as far as the original topic goes.

Crew report possible heavy landing, A/C checked out to be still servicable by engineers, what's the big deal ! The crew done the correct thing by reporting the incident.

Emtasol !

[Capn Bloggs]

some F/Os recently have been telling me about captains that couldn't fly there way down a twenty mile straight in final in CAVOK.
Sad but probably true, Kangaroo Court!

Crew report possible heavy landing, A/C checked out to be still servicable by engineers, what's the big deal ! The crew done the correct thing by reporting the incident.
There are lessons that should be learnt from it, even if it all turned out OK...

[topend3]

note NXE (the other bent one) is now back in service plying the QLink routes again...great to see...did they have a special announcement on board for the first service, or a fire truck welcome at it's first destination?

[nig&nog]

Watch out for those spoilers in NXE:ok:

[ITCZ]

Bloggs, we may be in agreement with each other!

Possible thread drift -- check your PMs :)

[Capn Bloggs]

That was a great post that hit the nail on the head - it's a shame it was deleted.