Rex dropping routes, Pilot shortage or ticket sales.

[Jango Fett]

While the boom is still going strong in WA, NSW & VIC are slipping into recession. Unemployment rising, taxes up, productivity down for most manufacturing operations and of course the drought.

Is it truley the crewing issues that are causing REX to abandon ALL of these routes. Not wanting to go into the 'pay and conditions' tangents, or is it more like ticket sales and profitability that may just be taking tole.

Things have changed over the last ten years for sure but is all the publicity over PILOT SHORTAGE in the eastern statesmore a tac to try and lure more lambs to THE OLD SLAUGHTER HOUSE of the Haso's days with promises of quick progression and big money

OR a hangover from the old days of, 'If in doubt, blame the pilots".

It seems too convenient to keep blaming the shortage such a public way. Perhaps is all true and the managment are just making the best of this bad situation by getting some free publicity when these press releases are let out in perhaps sensationalised ways.

Dose anyone have info on the 'bums on seats' of those routes as a % of capacity?

Just one of my many theorys.

Fett

[apache]

Don't recall that there was EVER a lure of "quick progression" or "big money" in the Hazo days.
As a matter of fact, whilst commands at REX are running at 6 months, there really could only be one faster way for "quick progression"... and that is via direct entry command.
the doom and gloom of not wanting to pay pilots more, is a stubborn attempt by management to "save face" by NOT admitting that they have stuffed a once great company by screwing the employees with terms, conditions, respect and lifestyle- all of which were a drawcard for a career in a regional.

[KRUSTY 34]

Spot on as usual apache.

On the topic of the thread, REX's yield and load factors over the past 2 years have been the envy of the industry. The economic management and rebuilding of the business is something to be truely proud of. So IMHO, the profitability of REX's market has never been greater.

Unfortunately the economic prowess that led to the pheonix rising from the ashes appears to have been in vain. My only conclusion is that the axiom taught at the Singapore school of business makes no provision for the retention of irreplacable labour (something perhaps not considered a possibility) as having any place in the running of such a business.

Believe me the customers are there (although many are becoming p!ssed off). It is this lack of pragmatism however in a most unusual and dynamic labour market that will see the crippling of REX.

[ABX]

Krusty,

Your last is a very insightful post indeed, well said.

A Singaporean businessman may well be expected to have an Asian business mind. I have ample opportunity to observe Asian business practises closely. Most managers in Asia are used to dictating the Ts & Cs on their own terms and see this as their birthright. No Asian business person alive today knows what it is like to experience labour shortages within Asia. If one labourer or group of them object to the terms and conditions they receive, they are gone and replaced before lunch time. Simple as that. 'Labour relations' is limited to do what the boss says and you can come back tomorrow.

WRT REX, it seems that LKH has the Asian business mind - no surprise there, it may also be that the following may be included in his list of mistakes:
1) Inaccurate or missing due diligence WRT labour relations in Australia;
2) Failure to hire management that will complete the picture for him. In other words, who in the company will stand up and disagree if they see the big picture slightly differently. Hiring 'yes men' is the fastest way to kill a good business.

As I have mentioned before Krusty, at my age and living in Albury, REX was my career goal. I'd be very happy to be a REX Captain at the Albury base. I still hope the company pulls through - or that whoever buys/replaces them has an Albury base.

ABX:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks ABX.

Good luck, we all live in hope.

[Timber]

Very valid points about oriental managements treating the workers as a commodity that can be discarded and replenished as ordained by them the rulers.

There is also another effect that makes discussion and appreciation between management and pilots problematic. The cause of this is that pilots really live in two different worlds depending on whether they are on the ground or flying.

Every pilot will know that, once the doors are closed and engines have been started, the world becomes most harmonious. From the moment the aircraft moves under its own power everybody involved works together to make the flight a success. The pilots try to make their way through inclement weather (if around), the ATCO's arrange for clearances, different flight levels, shortcuts. etc. Every communication is polite and friendly. It is really an ideal world without conflict...! Of course the view from the fligh deck can also be quite magnificient at times. It's just wonderfull...

The managers are not aware of this "pilots world" and how free of conflict it is. Their world is much more aggressive. They think nothing of sinking their closest associate if it could move them "forward" so to speak. They promote the gutless yes-men and eradicate the critical thinkers. Workers are tools and pilots especially are often seen, or at least displayed as, overpaid princesses. Managers can take decisions that benefit them personally but have an (often excessive) cost to the business. Often they don't really care because their focus in on moving up the ladder or squeezing cash out of the business, not on being responsible for the integrity of the product.

This thinking is completely alien to pilots. Most cannot for the life of them understand why a management would do something contrary to the legitimate needs of the company. It is because they spend so much time in their perfect world...... of which the "groundpeople" have no knowledge.

[SIUYA]

Geez Timber..............what the f*ck are you smoking?

Every pilot will know that, once the doors are closed and engines have been started, the world becomes most harmonious. :eek:

and

...It is really an ideal world without conflict...! :eek:

REALLY? :eek:

This thinking is completely alien to pilots.

Well..............you got the last one right at least. :D

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! :ugh:

[Timber]

Don't smoke... sorry

[KRUSTY 34]

Nice bit of rhetoric Timber.

Quote:

"This thinking is completely alien to pilots. Most cannot for the life of them understand why a management would do something contrary to the legitimate needs of the company. It is because they spend so much time in their perfect world...... of which the "groundpeople" have no knowledge."

So what are you saying? Pilots are naive to the real world, and management are simply the ruthless assholes we all think they are.

As the year moves on, I guess we'll see just how naive we are. As for the other half of the equation, well It seems we all agree on that one!

P.S. Thanks SIUYA, beat me to it!

[Timber]

I am saying that both pilots and managements are products of their environment. The pilots spend a lot of the time in a much nicer environment... so across the board they are much nicer individuals, but not always understood by mere mortals.

[kookabat]

so across the board they are much nicer individuals, but not always understood by near mortals.

That is one of the most arrogant statements I've ever read on PPRuNe.

[drshmoo]

I think Timber was just saying that management and Pilots roll in different worlds with different ideals.

Also its mere mortals not near mortals - just a hint:ok:

[Phlap1]

Different ideals is spot on.

Most pilots would do the job for nothing at some stage in their lives.

Management types!

Would Geoff Dixon work for nothing. I have never met a manager
without an agenda, either money hungry or power mad.

Although the occasional ex-pilot manager does it to hide his
inadequate flying abilities.

After nearly 40 years flying and being able to retire I still would
do a trip a month for nothing, how many managers would!

Some of the guys I fly with were not born when I started with
my present company, I must be crazy. Perhaps manager material.

[Timber]

Thanks drshmoo, that's exactly what I mean.
Phlap1 has also described it quite accurate.

[KRUSTY 34]

Ok Timber, whilst we're all feeling warm and fuzzy, and undoubtably you are an individual with an opinion. What do you see as the most effective way of dealing with REX's woes?

Genuine question.

[desmotronic]

They've already got it sorted with 457 visas. There's plenty of pilots who are busting to get into Australia.

[Muff Hunter]

I see now REX needs a CFI/Chief Pilot for their training academy, with the successful applicant given a chance to join the illustrious ranks of Regional Express after a said time.....

Now, who wouldn't take up this wonderful oppertunity, come'on what are you all waiting for.......the chance of a lifetime I say!!!!!!!!!

Hang on.......what's that noise????????????

Oh it's just the WHEELS FALLING OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad:

But don't worry, the cadets will be ready by June.............2011

[newsensation]

I understand REX are considering training Flight Attendants up as Pilots, they already have EP's training... :ok:

[Capt Wally]

....now that's funny 'news':) I wouldn't mind betting folding money that there has been the odd 2 or 3 hosties up the pointy end of a SAAB over the years, getting to know the 'cockpit' in advance probably:E


CW

[airman1]

I know a few ex REX pilots who tell the tale of the "so called cockpit tour" I never did believe them ...... Just tales of the sky if you ask me. There isn’t even room up the front of the SAAB for an extra set of Jepps approach plates let alone a hostie!!:E:E

[captainstoobing]

Curious as to the quality of the source that states that the flying academy for REX needs another CFI.

Last I heard, an ex General Flying Services instructor had the job???

Am speaking to a friend currently down there tonight to see if there's any truth to the rumor?:bored:

[No1Dear]

Grab a copy of today's Australian and read it for yourself.

[Muff Hunter]

or check out the AFAP website, the ad is there.

curious to know what happened to the ex-GFS senior instructor that was/is/supposed to be working there?

[Timber]

You see the urgent need for retention of the experienced trainers and captains at a higher, more market conformal, salary level. Failing substantially better salaries you predict a possible collaps of the airline due to attrition.

Firstly, managements can pretty well do as they feel. They answer to the share holders and not to the staff. Only if they clash with safety issues or engage in criminal practices can they be called to book. Arguably, at some point along the current pilot attrition curve, the overal safety of the operation might come into play and in that case CASA would have to take action.

Otherwise the pilot group would normally work through the union to negotiate a better package. If the union is not pursuing the wishes of their members (the pilots) they need to be leaned upon to better their ways. If the union will not lift their game, the obvious next step is to mass-resign from that union and pursue another model of representation.

Regardless if the representation of the pilot group is a union or some other negotiating mechanism, it requires a management that is in principle willing to listen to sensible arguments and requirements. It doesn't seem that there is a great willingness with this management to discuss things with the pilots.

Another possible way to flag the catastrophic chain of events that threatens the airline is to contact key share holders. In this case, in view of the excellent financial results produced by the company, the share holders will tend to continue support of the current management. Only if one can succesfully argue that complete eradication of all share holder value is imminent might they hear you. If the share holders are also in majority the management of the company this avenue would be a dead end to start with.

Employer Nominated (457) visa's are now available for pilots. The government has handed the industry a way out of manpower problems in the cockpit. If the airline can show that there are no takers for the offered pilot positions they can go oversesas to fill the spots. It is important for the airline to keep salaries as low as possible to be able to show that no Australians are willing to take the jobs. This availability of 457 visas could well be the main reason why management can afford to be insensitive to reasonable salary increase requests. Some managements of other operators have choosen to try to retain key staff with drastic salary improvements. It's a choice..... one management goes one way and another the other way......

All in all it seems that the management has enough options available to extricate themselves from the doom scenario, and there doesn't seem to be a way to force the issue other than to leave...., and it then remains to be seen if the doom scenario in fact unfolds. Very problematic situation and extremely frustrating for those who have put many years of good service, against modest pay, into this airline.

[KRUSTY 34]

Jesus! Timber, I thought I could prattle on.

The question was, what do you see as the most effective way of dealing with REX's woes?

We all know what I think. If you have no answer, then that's fine. But please, the inane crap you are coming out with suggests to me that you are nothing more than a windup merchant.

If you have anything real to say, then feel free to do so and I appologise in advance.

[Spotlight]

Mr Krusty....The first to admit he can't see the wood for the trees.

Well explained Timber. Good luck!

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote: (my bolding)

"All in all it seems that the management has enough options available to extricate themselves from the doom scenario, and there doesn't seem to be a way to force the issue other than to leave....,"

Well it's wonderful to see that REX is in such good hands. The people that have devoted a large part of their professional lives have been advised that the only course open to them is to leave. Unfortunately Timber you are right, and they are leaving, by the shipload! The real issue is not whether the pilots at REX deserve better remuneration or working conditions. The issue is whether REX can survive the loss of their irreplaceble Captains and command upgradeable F/O's. On the last ground school, there was only one (1), yes one candidate that had the experience or qualifications to upgrade to command!

There's your wood Spotlight. And as far as "good luck" to Timber is concerned, if he is in any way associated with REX, he'll need it.

[Capt Wally]

Krusty yr fighting a loosing battle there mate with the likes of 'Timber'
Most know what's really happening down there at REX it ain't rocket science but some simply don't get it!
If we go back a bit here & analyze as to what is the root cause/reasons why pilots are leaving I think apart from the very obvious (poor T&C's which is the main crux of this thread & rightly so) it's because we have not seen such a huge pilot hiring scenario by the ever expanding majors going on in this country as far back as I can recall.

If REX for Eg. pay their capts say $120K & F/O's $80K (fairyland I know)that's a good wage but with the majors paying beyond that or will need to down the track & with the fact that flying jets is still a core attraction to most pilots the movement of pilots from REX & others will always be an issue. I believe it's more the basic problem of there not being enough pilots coming up thru the ranks to keep the 'rungs' on the ladder occupied/full as we all move up. Fix that problem (lack of pilots) then you have a long term solution, but 'till that's been adressed we ain't seen the end of it yet! There are lots of offshoots to fixing this problem also such as retaining older pilots (ones that are unlikely to go to the majors because they would be considered too old, see me for Eg:bored:) by way of decent wages (another fairyland tale I know) as the core training team within REX so that these guys can keep the fire stoked for the Co. to survive/continue whilst the younger ones move thru. I know what I say is obvious to all here but we do tend to drift off a bit with it all, including myself!

A bit long winded I know & as usual personal opinions only



CW

[Jango Fett]

Are they taking DEC's yet?

I would like to apply.

if not yet, how long?

JF

[wethereyet]

Capt Wally, "the fact that flying jets is still a core attraction to most pilots the movement of pilots from REX & others" is just not true. Yes there will always be those motivated by ego and percieved prestige, but I would surely believe that this would not apply to "most" of those that have left along with their qualifications in the last 18 months. Just over 70K at the peak of your career is the REAL reason for MOST of the attrition.

Your suggested 120K salary for skippers would guarantee we would not have this thread. As for 80K for FO's, well that would be a plain waste of money since it is those wanting a long term career with the company that REX needs to look after, and they ultimately need to be rewarded through healthy salaries for skippers.

[Eight Ball]

I used their preferred website ( can't remember which one ) and sent my resume' months ago but haven't heard anything yet. Got 2,100+ ( ME = approx.1600).

One would think they'll be ringing but haven't heard from them. And I thought they had a shortage. Oh well..... :ooh:, hopefully the Airbus job comes soon.

[Pin Head]

1. Are they sponsoring on 457 visa's?
2.What sort of experience are they after for DEC?

[Capt Wally]

'whethereyet' I still stand by my reasoning but I can see why some would not feel the same. I've been around for a while in this game (as a lot of us have) & many years ago the regionals where pretty much just a stepping to stone to the majors, had nothing to do with ego's etc. A lot of yr current senior Capt's in the Majors came up thru the Regionals & never had any intentions of staying there 4ever. Sure some would have made it a life long job but that was for many other reasons such as they simply couldn't make it over the next 'fence'. My suggested wages was in order to keep a core of perhaps older pilots there to keep the 'shop front door open'. The current money that REX & other offer I agree is very poor & not seen as a permenant 'stopover' but that's it for now so in a funny sought of way transitioning thru REX is still going on as it has been for years, just that money & lousy T&C's is now the reason. That's the way it was years ago pure & simple & at the end of the day you could go no futher up the ladder equip wise & money wise when you got to the top. It's a whole new ball game these days, straight to jets for even ones that wouldn't have been considered to fly a Seminole once so now leaving few to fill in the lower end jobs where there was once many. The traditional career path has died due to progress, a word that is not always for the better.
Always just my opinion as we all have as to why we are seeing aviation in this country floundering big time most likely thru rapid expansion & now little in the way money wise for newbies to come onboard.


CW

[wethereyet]

Capt Wally, it is your assumption that MOST will ALWAYS move on, regardless of T&C's.

It just isn't the truth, and it's the line the company uses to keep wages low. For many pilots the size of the aircraft they fly is not linked to how big they think their penis is.

REX can potentially offer a very attractive option for those pilots with families - 100-120K for skippers and only away twice a week, non consecutive, good rosters etc etc. (many jet operators cannot compete in this regard). So I stand by my arguement - paying REX skippers properly would not just keep the shop front open but allow for expansion.

[ABX]

You betcha, this would suit me:
REX can potentially offer a very attractive option for those pilots with families - 100-120K for skippers and only away twice a week, non consecutive, good rosters etc...
I'd see out the next 20-25 years with them under those conditions.

[KRUSTY 34]

Its' funny ABX, The logic is undeniable yet still no movement in that area. All the time we hear stories of applicants that more than meet the minimum requirements not even getting a look in. Yet the starting courses at REX are now full of people that cannot be upgraded to command, despite the fact that promotions are now less than 8 months from time of joining! That's the general entry of course, for the Cadets, if they ever graduate, it will be at least 5 years best case.

I'm starting to smell a rat. What other conclusion can one come up with. Nobody not even REX management are that blind?

I've been hearing some pretty interesting conspiracy theories about certain Singaporean connections, but for the life of me I can't quite reconcile the end game.

In the immortal words of Air Vice Marshal Sir Kieth Park the day after the Battle of Britain...... "The bastards are up to something". I just hope the "something" isn't what the Germans did. Give up!

[ABX]

Perhaps certain parties want to make money via the stock market? It has occurred to me that an individual could make a large amount of money by buying up (potentially) undervalued stock before the company announces 'the cure'. Who knows?

[captainstoobing]

I'm starting to smell a rat. What other conclusion can one come up with. Nobody not even REX management are that blind?

I've been hearing some pretty interesting conspiracy theories about certain Singaporean connections, but for the life of me I can't quite reconcile the end game.

Krusty - what have you been hearing??


It has occurred to me that an individual could make a large amount of money by buying up (potentially) undervalued stock before the company announces 'the cure'

ABX - What cure do you forsee that would increase stock values?


These are genuine questions as someone who is wanting to join and research the company/position I am applying for. Thanks guys

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday Gavin,

and good luck with your application to REX. One rumour doing the rounds is that it is all designed lower the share price (which they have done very effectively, and duely noticed by ABX). This is part of the plan by LKH to buy up big (which he has been doing) and make a motza when the secret negotiations for a takeover lead to the announcement of the sale. What I can't fathom however, is that unless the new owners (whomever they may be) are prepared to dramatically increase T&C's, then they will be in exactly the same position that REX is in today! As I said just one of the conspiracy theories. One that I have not subscribed to personally because of the reason I have just stated.

But, having said that the boss is still buying up big. He either knows something that we don't, or he is the eternal optimist. Time will tell.

[captainstoobing]

Thanks for your usual honest answer. That actually makes a lot of sense, I did notice recently LKH has bought up big - some 1000000 units! As did another board member / CEO Pelair .

Who do you think would be taking over/buying out the company?? VB/Tiger?

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Who do you think would be taking over/buying out the company?? VB/Tiger?QANTAS. They need the pilots for the Link. Especially the captain's.
A nice little monopoly :yuk:



See youse!:8

[KRUSTY 34]

Rumour has it that it may be Singaporean connection. So I guess Tiger does come readily to mind. Mind you as I said, any new owners will still have the severe crewing issues that have caused so many problems for REX, and will continue to do so for some time!

[captainstoobing]

I guess unless the 'new owner' has more of a different approach to its staff and uses 'A320' or Embraer aircraft which may bring with it more re-numeration.:D

It will be interesting to see how true the rumors are ? There is definitely something going on. As was just said it gives a bigger company a huge regional monopoly;)

[captainstoobing]

Tomorrow night at 5 ch 10 are doing an in depth story re the pilot shortage.

"The crisis in regional aviation, and its got nothing to do with rising fuel prices" was the description.

Lots of footage of REX.

Maybe the public will finally realise how bad T and Cs are

[Capt Wally]

'stoob's it will be interesting to watch that's for sure from our point of view (pilots) but to the public they won't care too much. I believe as long as the plane is available for flying (for now) then the general public couldn't care less or be able to do anyting about it anyway. It will only be when REX are all but closed down that the public might jump up & down but there won't be again anything they can do about that either. All a public airing will do of the lousy way REX are handling the pilot crisis is get higher TV ratings. the 'fix' won't come from the public.
It's just the way i see it. In fact I have mentioned over the past year or so to various non flying family & friends that the industry is suffering & most either don't know too much about it or have any idea how it will effect them because all they see is a constant air fare war which is all that counts for them. We are the ones battling the war for better T&C's not the general public.

'whethereyet' I'm not going to get into a slagging match as to whether or not pilots link ego's or penis sizes with A/c types all I know is that pilots in general want to move forward, being at the regionals for life when yr young am sure isn't going to happen to too many money or no money!


CW

[Jenna Talia]

Stoobs,

That must be part of the news program, which will probably result in not much air time.

JT

[ABX]

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend anyone here hold their breath waiting for the media to put the truth of the matter out there...

Remember, airlines = advertising dollars!

Naturally when the fat lady has already sung, gone home and had a shower, the media will announce the 'breaking news'.

[Rawrawhammer]

I didn't see a thing on ch10 tonight

[Chadzat]

I caught it on the ch10 11am news. Was a 2-3 minute piece focused on the Cooma-Sydney route Rex cancellation. A lot of fluff including an AOPA boffin blaming it on airlines "poaching" (yes he used that word) the rex pilots. And guess what- nota SINGLE mention of rex pilot pay and conditions- the pilots are made to look like the bad guys YET AGAIN. :yuk:

[KRUSTY 34]

Got it in one Chadzat.

Also no actual comment from REX management or REX pilots. A.O.P.A, what a joke. Of course it's not in their interest to state the real cause of the shortage.

Another example of quality journalism.

[ABX]

Just saw it replayed on tens late news, a couple of things come to mind:

1) Is it possible AOPA have lost their way? Who are they actually representing? They only gave the worn out old company spin, 'massive pilot shortage' etc;
2) Today's media is too bone lazy to do any real investigating and reporting, they'd much rather recycle the garbage that they are told to say by those who send in the advertising dollars;
3) Government loans for training might be nice, but they will not replace decent wages.
4) Why the hell were they recycling Cooma when the situation there has been reported for several months anyway?

The whole thing is a joke.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

They actually did mention pay in that news clipping (11am Ch. TEN, re: Cooma services). Admittedly it wasn't "REX" pay, but they said that pilots were moving on for better dollars. It was brief, but it was mentioned.