SIA ad in FI AGAIN!

[tprop1]

Just a quick post if possible on this forum but even my wife who HATES reading Flight International is getting mighty bored with SQ advertising YET AGAIN for Captains with either SIA or SIA (M).

If you can't get the staff work out a way you can. It's been going on for I think 6 or maybe more weeks at least.

Is there a problem with the outfit?

I do not work for SQ or any other SE Asian firm so this is NOT a personal/vintictive/anti-anyone post just a question.

My suggestion is that a few extra spondoolies (cash to you Bob) might help out a tad.

tp1

[ojay]

The package is hopeless.Despite the much vaunted SQ image you can earn more flying for the more prominent 'low-cost' operators on a B737-300 than you can flying a shiny brand new B777 with SQ,without the attendant hassle of moving your home 6000 miles East.A very good friend of mine,who is a prominent banker in Singapore was staying with me recently.Over a few drams I showed him the FI ad for A340 captains.I can vouch that he was 'shocked and horrified' at the inadequacy of the package.He is employed by a well-known UK bank and his rental allowance alone exceeded the total!!Some considerable time ago I joined Cathay.The interview process consisted of(after an initial interview in London) of an upgradeable to 1st class ticket(from Business) to HKG,good standard hotel accomodation,allowances and free drink at a cocktail party to allow yourself to ruin everything in front of Cathay management.The point being that you were treated with respect.If you wish to avail yourself of an interview with SIA,they will provide only a standby,economy ticket(defies belief,I know) hotel accomodation which YOU pay for and even the medical is at your expense.My calculation is that you will be out of pocket to the tune of nearly a grand(uk pounds).I could legitimately apply for one of these seemingly glossy jobs,as could a lot of people I know.Put simply,the deal sucks!B/rgds.

[cyclops]

Ojay I too lived in Sg and saw all the nice bankers and insurance people living the good life with rent allowances twice my monthly salary. They lived in a sort of lotus land which was far removed from reality. A good deal if you can get it. A 747 Capt can live a great life on expat terms but a more reduced style on "local". He will still be earning more than the majority of Sgs. He will still have a better lifestyle than the majority. In previous posts I have seen reference to cost of schooling (expensive) cars (even more so) as down grading the Capts' life style. Other expats provide these on far smaller salaries.

Please do not take the above as justification for any agenda. I enjoyed Sg, severely disliked SIA management, (some of whom actively encouraged racism),learnt how to re-negotiate a start-up contract after resigning at the end of the contract and made many good friends among the pilot and 'civilian' worlds. Would I go back, yes, but on more money. I want lotus land too. Whether you would want to if you were a 747 Capt is up to you. From all accounts those who applied previously didn't bother to continue once the terms were fully explained.

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To define the norm you must sample the excesses

[Slasher]

Poor old SIA must be realising by now that the world knows SQ sucks and the sh*t salary it pays. Im making 5 times more money flogging 737-200s around than a SQ 777 driver. And what currentley endorsed 777 or 747 pilot wants to work for peanuts with a crappy racist and selfish outfit who only wants to make your life a misery?
Id qualify for 777 upgrade but I wouldnt touch them with a 10 foot bloodey bargpole. I already spent my 2 years in the Stalag SQ hellhole.

[Slasher]

Poor old SIA must be realising by now that the world knows SQ sucks and the sh*t salary it pays. Im making 5 times more money flogging 737-200s around than a SQ 777 driver. And what currentley endorsed 777 or 747 pilot wants to work for peanuts with a crappy racist and selfish outfit who only wants to make your life a misery?
Id qualify for 777 upgrade but I wouldnt touch them with a 10 foot bloodey bargpole. I already spent my 2 years in the Stalag SQ hellhole.

[BusyB]

Ojay, I don't think the current CX package is anything like your memories and "treat with respect" has long since gone down the drain.

[tprop1]

Does anyone know if SIA are making much headway with their ads?

EK put in ONE ad and paper shares go through the ceiling, even CX get some replies and they're going through some major **** with their pilots. KAL are paying and CAL (I think) too.

I just want to know why apply to SIA for a quarter of the money you can get elsewhere? Can anyone be applying?


PS I really hope this thread can be kept out of the gutter

[Kaptin M]

Maybe this is the one area we ALL agree on - the money, or lack of, that SQ is offering is just not competitive on the world market anymore. Especially with KAL, JAL and other operators are offering salaries twice that of Singapore's, bases in The States, Australia, and the U.K., with 10-12 days AT HOME every month, confirmed First or Business Class.

Your contracts aren't up to par SIA, that is why response to your ads is so poor.

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

I'll agree with everyone else that SQ pay is far removed from what other Airlines in the Region are paying.

United pilots are due to strike next month because their contract expired in April this year and a new one has still not been agreed upon. Just to advise everyone that SQs Commercial Agreement with its pilots expired Nov 98 and there is no sign of a new one. Should one be signed though it expires Nov this year. SQ tends to really drag along negotiations of this sort to keep all that money earning interest in the bank. The pilots have not had a pay rise since....well they can't remember.

As an expat your needs in any new CA will be absolutely at the bottom of any priority list.

Slasher describes very accurately how many past and present SQ crew feel.

The only hope of a better deal is if the response to all the ads is extremely poor. Once flights cannot be manned suddenly the dust is blown of the coffers.

[titan]

The big picture -
SIA make sure that their pilots are, or perceive themselves to be, unemployable anywhere else in the world. With this Big Brother attitude they can do as they please.
ALPA-S are still playing in the sand pit, too sh*t scared to go and get some decent legal advice and take on SIA - "don't wake the sleeping Dragon". Well that supposed sleeping Dragon has been awake and well and burning your ass for years.
What exactly is it that they are so scared of?

[Kaptin M]

ALPA-S is something of a toothless tiger, titan, and of course, the local Captains are on excellent money - even YOU must be aware of that - so I doubt that too many of them would want to leave.

KAL's salary and basing deal for expats is pretty tempting, even for some of SQ's long term angmo's, but their [KAL's] history of treatment of expats, leaves a cloud of doubt hanging over the heads of some of the guys who might be considering jumping ship at SIA.

[tprop1]

But Kap'n

I was just talking about getting new guys IN to SQ not hanging on to the ones still there. My point was just that if SQ's pay structure is way out of line with other airlines how do they expect to attract new talent when it appears they need it a lot?

The guys already in an airline normally stay (please let's not get sidetracked on that comment) because they know the score.

BTW after your coment "the local Captains are on excellent money", what's a local earn then?

TP1

PS I am so pleased that this thread is staying on subject!!! :)

[titan]

KaptinM:
How can you possibly say that the local Captains are on excellent money. In my time in Singapore the average landed house value went up by 40%pa. As house payments account for between 40&50% of a pilot's wage, were salaries going up by 20%pa? NO!
I was an FO on a 747 and could not afford to live in my own apartment nor afford to buy a car. What a pathetic state of affairs.
And you all still gloat on SIA's ability to turn a handsome profit. One day you will wake up and realise that that is at YOUR expense.
ALPA-S are a bunch of self-infatuated sycophants.

[Kaptin M]

titan, oh titan! Did you expect to start at the top?...Maybe. When I went from a G.A. pilot to airlines in Oz, I took a $4,000 p.a. pay drop.....and that was about 20 years ago.

Just because you are an "airline pilot", it doesn't mean you'll be on big bikkies from the start - it takes time. It's took me the best part of 10 years, AFTER getting into airlines, to realize a reasonable salary. Of course, the banks are willing to offer you loans of an interminable limit because you are an "airline pilot" - but the reality is a long way different...isn't it!!

I've seen several SQ local Capts' pay slips...the range was SGD16k-25k per month...way above what is being offered for EXPERIENCED new joiners, and even some of the old hands.

Considering your previous time in SQ, titan, I'm surprised you hadn't investigated this side of things!!

[Goldwing2000]

Titan, if in Asia one cannot live on Sgd10k per mth plus then I'm afraid one's priority and financial planning is somewhat awry. As Kaptin M pointed out some of the local Capts are on a damnside more, how do I know cos good friends of mine are on the B744 & A340 and there not lacking for any comforts of home though like all human beings they grumble from time to time that it could be better. Sure S'pore is an expensive place to live especially when it comes down to buying a house and car. A house is essential but a car in S'pore isn't and a lot of these guys have expensive cars and houses in Malaysia where the Ringgit is half the Sing dollar. I agree that the overall picture when it comes to pilots pay at SQ is dismal compared to other global airlines but in context to living in Asia it's far better then Ah peck who's churning a mediocre salary down the street. ;)

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I don't need a frontal lobotomy I prefer a bottle in front of me!

[Farside]

The problem with the SIA salaries is the entry level, and I agree with everybody that they have to be adjusted seriously to be able to recruit new talent. However if you stick it out a few years through which you have a movement or two and a yearly 6% increase ( Not anymore now, only 4.5%) the final figure for expat pilots is not too bad.
Let me give you my monthly pay slips from January to August 2000 and take the following into consideration.
11 years with SIA on expat terms
1 US Dollar= 1.71 Sin Dollar
There was a back pay for Bonus 1998 in the month of February 2000.
Housing is paid for by SIA to a maximum of $3800 per month which is not reflected in the salary check. (My rent is 4900 per month )
Tax approx 27% of total salary (minus expenses)
Company CPF contribution is not reflected in Gross ( Average monthly $900 )
Flying monthly average is 86 Hrs.
No education allowance in the Total Gross

Total Gross Jan 2000 $33600 ( extra month )
Total Gross Feb2000 $46500
Total Gross Mar 2000 $32600 ( Basic pay adjustment and back pay)
Total Gross Apr 2000 $22300
Total Gross May 2000 $21900 ( Vacation little flying!)
Total Gross Jun 2000 $23600
Total Gross Jul 2000 $63700 ( Part bonus 1999, rest in December)

Now how does this compare to other operators salaries. Let’s see if we can get this in the open it would be good for all of us if we had a database on salaries in the different companies. That's what you need when you want to negotiate.

[tprop1]

Well after six or so weeks nothing from SIA this week in Flight International. It feels kinda strange!

Does this mean they've got all they need?

[Kaptin M]

Farside, is any component of the salaries shown above inclusive of "Education Allowance" [I understand you've got 2 kids eligible]. Ooops, sorry, just back-peddled and saw that you stated not.

Additionally, you should post that you are a 744 Capt. - the highest salaried fleet, and this position [744] is not a usual assignment for an expat.

Perhaps, most importantly, and with due respect to you, you did make a point of stating it - you joined SQ in October 1990, which puts you on an 11th year salary.

You quote 86 hours as a monthly average...is that all stick time?? And what percentage is "back of the clock" ie.between 12 midnite, and 0600 from Singapore?

How many days off in SIN, per month?

Joiners wages are pathetically below market value!! Especially when considering the "Minimum requirements."

[titan]

Goldenwing:
I was never on S$10,000/month at SIA! My take home was between $4600 and $5400 - one of the draw backs of being an angmo and relegated to the Classic. That makes about $60,000pa which is the same as any reasonable dog box of an apartment would cost.
Unlike most of the locals, I had 10 years in aviation before I got to SIA, and SIA got the benefit of that experience. I was employable as an airline pilot before I joined SIA and didnt need a 9 year/$320,000 bond to make me more employable. If SIA had treated me fairly I would have stayed, they didnt, and so I walked.

[Kaptin M]

So, why [in light of your experience] DID you accept their offer, titan?

[Farside]

Hello KaptinM Education allowance is not included, and you are right it is 11 years ( feels more like 12!). I would say that 80 % of the flying is in the dark hours and gets tiring at time. 86 hrs is stick time you can have a month that you add another 20 hours psn to that. It's not all roses, but it's o.k..

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

As SIA has stopped advertising in FI, it must be for one of 2 reasons, either they have received sufficient applications (highly unlikely), or due to the very poor response they feel the advertising money would be better spent in the Bucharest Daily, Moscow Monthly, Nigerian edition of the News of the World and the Libyan Christian Times.

[mackone]

Pay peanuts ... you get monkeys!

[tprop1]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the pages of FI .....

It's ba-ack!!!

SIA ad reappears, same package though :rolleyes:

[addinfurnightem]

And I happen to know that they have already 'knocked back' some very experienced people, so, one has to ask one's self, do they really need more pilots or are they trying to gather a whole deskfull of applications and use them to justify their refusal to increase pay and allowances to the existing work force, based on the "fact" that there is no pilot shortage?

[leGrand]

A 10 year capt on the B744 will gross $250,000/yr. That excludes his meal allowances of approximately $2000/mth and the employer CPF contribution. The starting pay of SQ is way below market and judging by their constant advert on FI, don't think many join or they need a lot of capt.

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

I'd say they are back in FI because they had a poor response in Nigeria and Libya.

[nice_beaver]

I see from the latest ad they need Capts on all fleets, even offering ex pat status on 744 in Sin.
Altho money hasn't changed the requirement for wide bodied command time appears to have disappeared and altho you MAY express a preference you WILL be offered fleet appropriate to you qualifications!!
Is the bottom of the barrel fast approaching?