Soldiers Need Loans to eat

[ORAC]

A damning indictment of PAYD, amidst other things....

The Independent: Exclusive report: Soldiers need loans to eat, report reveals (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-report-soldiers-need-loans-to-eat-report-reveals-825928.html)
Senior figures react angrily to damning indictment of life inside the Army. Jonathan Owen and Brian Brady investigate

A highly sensitive internal report into the state of the British Army has revealed that many soldiers are living in poverty. Some are so poor that they are unable to eat and are forced to rely on emergency food voucher schemes set up by the Ministry of Defence (MoD).

Some of Britain's most senior military figures reacted angrily yesterday to the revelations in the report, criticising the Government's treatment of its fighting forces.

The disturbing findings outlined in the briefing team report written for Sir Richard Dannatt, the Chief of the General Staff, include an admission that many junior officers are being forced to leave the Army because they simply cannot afford to stay on.

Pressure from an undermanned army is "having a serious impact on retention in infantry battalions", with nearly half of all soldiers unable to take all their annual leave as they try to cover the gaps.

The analysis, described by General Dannatt as "a comprehensive and accurate portrayal of the views and concerns of the Army at large", states: "More and more single-income soldiers in the UK are now close to the UK government definition of poverty." It reveals that "a number of soldiers were not eating properly because they had run out of money by the end of the month". Commanders are attempting to tackle the problem through "Hungry Soldier" schemes, under which destitute soldiers are given loans to enable them to eat.

The scheme symbolises a change from the tradition of soldiers getting three square meals a day for free. Now hard-up soldiers have to fill out a form which entitles them to a voucher. The cost is deducted from their future wages, adding to the problems of soldiers on low pay........

[VinRouge]

Dont worry, we have got an economy based on low unemployment, low
interest rates, and solid growth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/05/11/cnboe.xml

Mervyn King, the Bank's Governor, is poised to unveil new forecasts showing that the Consumer Price Index (CPI) will rise above 3 per cent over the next six months, forcing him to write a letter of explanation to the Chancellor. In a further blow to Alistair Darling's credibility, the Bank will cut its economic growth forecasts for both this year and next. The changes will spark fears of "stagflation" - weak growth twinned with high inflation - and will be unveiled in the Bank's quarterly Inflation Report on Wednesday, which will set the tone for the economy for the next three months. They come amid warnings that Britain now faces a US-style housing crash, with plummeting prices and rising repossessions.


Roight. So we are cutting rates when inflation is going to go above 3% (yeah right, maybe if you eat widescreen TVs and dont use a car). Looks as if we are headed in the same direction as Labour took us in the 1970's, and we all know how that went...

Labour gave us "economic stability" at the cost of far more severe downturn that we are about to experience. Now where did I put my tin hat?

[Biggus]

Right, as I type this I know I am going to be 'flamed' big time for doing so, but......

I read some time ago in SROs for an RAF base that was one of the first to try PAYD of problems of airman running out of money at the end of the month, and being unable to feed themselves. However, in the case of many single young airman it was a case of mismanaging their money, and failing to budget. Before PAYD, for a young airman living in the block he knew he would always have a roof over his head, and be fed 3 meals a day. So all his pay was spending money, to go on his XR3i, gadgets, DVDs, and of course beer and socializing. If he ran out of money 3 weeks into a month he just didn't go out, and stayed in the block watching DVDs, etc - but he still got fed!! Now, with PAYD, if an airman runs out of money after 3 weeks he doesn't eat!!

So, some, and I mean some, of the problem may be down to young airman/soldiers/sailors failing to budget properly over the month.

I must state at this point, that I am not saying for one second that junior ranks in the military are not badly paid - I happen to believe they are. Just that proper budgeting, which many young people are not very good at (my kids certainly aren't) is part of the problem at the moment - their culture needs to change.

Standing by for the incoming!!!

[VinRouge]

You would starve with PAYD even if you could afford it...

[Dan Winterland]

The CPI is another statistic which is a damn lie. It's based on a 'basket' of goods which includes of all things a DVD player. I live overseas and send my kids to school in the UK. The fees have been risng at about 7% a year which I reckon is probably the true inflation rate. My mum who lives in the UK says a brand of pasta she normally buys has gone from 49p to 99p a packet.

When the Government are basing their economic policy and public sector pay on flawed data, what do you expect?

[Beatriz Fontana]

Biggus,

I hate to say this but I'm with you. It's the younger lads (and lasses) with cash in their pockets for the first time who are the worse offenders. Then again, its up to the chain of command to tell it to them straight that they should budget for nosh.

PAYD has made my life easier as a bit of an itinerant across the country. Means I can put in expenses for actual costs rather than guessing, which has to be value for money for the UK tax payers.

[airborne_artist]

The fees have been risng at about 7% a year which I reckon is probably the true inflation rate.

DW - I took my eldest daughter out of a private day school six years ago, after the third 7% annual increase in fees. There's massive competition between schools for high-quality facilities to show off to prospective parents. These parents have no idea that they will be sucked into a spiral of rising fees that they can not escape, nor do they have any control over the rises set by the school.

All three went/are in the UK state system, which luckily suited/s them well.

Agree with Biggus - it's a budgeting thing. There's a solution though - using a payment card that's topped up each month before wages are paid into the bank, by an amount that equals say 80% meals per month. If the lad/lass builds up excess credit on the card, they can get a refund, again through the pay system, always ensuring they have credit for a month of meals on the card.

[StopStart]

Biggus is completely correct but misses the underlying crux of the problem. This is just another example of how the fundamentals of the military covenant are being eroded by petty penny pinching by people who have no concept of what military service is all about.

At it's very basic level the State contracts a young man or woman to do it's bidding in wars various but in return it promises to provide basic food and shelter for said recruit. Those recruits are often very young and the military's responsibility goes far beyond just giving them a uniform and a gun. In return for the opportunity to leave one's legs in Helmand etc the military/Govt have a duty to ensure that all it's employees are cared for. The provision of three basic meals a day is fundamental to that duty. It costs cock all in the grand scheme of things and to say otherwise is just crass.

I have no problem with PAYD in the Cpls, Sgts & O's Mess - I still think it undermines a fundamental aspect of the whole military "deal" but realistically if you can't manage yourself into finding £3 a day for food then you shouldn't be holding the rank. That said, we have a responsibility to look after the junior ranks and help them manage their lives.

Remember folks, we in the RAF are rather "spoilt" with a generally well educated and qualified OR cadre - it's your average, poorly educated junior army recruit who's being hit by this.

Edit: a_a has the solution :) Genius, problem solved, lets go back to moaning about other stuff! :ok:

[ZH875]

The scheme symbolises a change from the tradition of soldiers getting three square meals a day for free.

And there was I thinking that the tradition was for £x to be deducted from their pay every month to cover things like food and accommodation.

The problem is that the MP's (them in Parliament) get cheap subsidised meals, couple that with their paid for second homes and chubby Prescotts extra £4000 per year for food, there is no money left to keep the old system going.

[Ali Barber]

Did I miss something in the pay review board's report. When PAYD was brought in, did the airmen's (and other's) pay go up to compensate. If not, PAYD was a pay cut and the airmen had already committed themselves to repaying the HP on his XR3i and other gadgets. I say airmen because they will have the least spare cash floating around, but it applies to all ranks.

[FormerFlake]

That said, we have a responsibility to look after the junior ranks and help them manage their lives.



That is harsh on the JRs. I know plenty of SNCOs and Officers who can not manage their finances properly. One was a pilot and was in dept to the tune of £40k.

While we should look after each other some people are just too stupid to listen these days.

[VinRouge]

Thats modern society for you.

Shame we have got a massive recession on the way to give one and all a big dose of reality.

[StopStart]

That is harsh on the JRs

Sweet. So you're telling me that SNCOs and Occifers have no responsibility to look after those under their command? Read my last post again. I'm not talking about patronisingly patting poor little airmen on the head, I'm talking about the system taking responsibility for the more vulnerable people in it.

Officers and SNCOs who can't manage their finances isn't the issue here.

[SirToppamHat]

To some extent, we have brought this on ourselves - PAYD (or Pay as you Starve) was brought in largely at the behest of our own people, complaining that they are having to pay 7-days per wk when the vast majority clear-off every weekend and the jockstrappers only eat 2 meals a day. A straightforward reduction in charges (ie by paying only for meals taken) terrified the beancounters as it would have removed the disgraceful situation where part of the previous charges that paid for Operational Feeding. Also, charging for 21 meals a week meant that there would always be an excess, whereas charging only for meals taken would have been bound to leave the kitty in deficit.

I have said before that I didn't understand why a Trial was entered into that couldn't be abandoned when it didn't work. I am at one of the units and it is absolutely CRAP; it was pretty poor in the early stages, but when the Contractor realised that no profit was being made, changes were made to ensure the absolute minimum was provided. I am told the OM is little better than a transport cafe. OK so the Trial failed - can we go back? Err no, because (as with JPA and several other great ideas) the savings have already been taken.

Coming back to the essential point about our people though, this has always been a concern, but how do you start monitoring closely the troops under your command who live in the blocks if you aren't going to do the same for the 18-yr-old SAC who is married and living in their own house?

I think the problem may have more to do with how the money is taken than the PAYD itself - if our people just signed for the meals and the money was taken the following mth, I suspect few would starve, but no doubt some accountant will tell me this is against some law or other.

STH

[Tiger_mate]

RAF Shawbury Station Handbook 8th Edition (undated) approx circa 78

YOUR OFFICER

Remember that the Officer in Charge of your section takes a personal interest in you, and he is the man to whom you should look for advice when you have problems. He is interested in your barrack accomodation, your food, your sport and recreation, and your welfare. Do not hesitate to speak to him immediately if you have a problem. If he cannot sort it out, he will see that you are put in contact with the right person to help you.

Inside back cover

The useful life of this booklet is intended to be about a year...

Final point - this booklet is NOT an official Service publication..

How times have changed, yet there are many who advocate a Service Ethos nowadays lacking from the time of this publication. Perhaps a 'youngster' may wish to rewrite the above paragraph pertinent to todays military ethos, but please, no txt spk m8

[Scribbly]

I've had the misfortune to eat in a PAYD mess, and my big problem with it was that the quality of the core meal was awful - there was no way you could have even a remotely healthy diet during a long stay. The contractor doesn't seem obliged to provide healthy food, just food, therefore chips and cat food will meet the requirements. If you want your 5 a day you have to pay extra,every day, and that takes you over the monthly cost of what you were paying out of your wages before it came in. Is there anyone out there with the B***S to reverse this programme and feed us all properly? It's that person that should get the OBEs, not the idiots that brought it in in the first place.

[SirToppamHat]

It is perhaps worth explaining at this point that the 'Core Menu' is that which is provided for the same price as used to be paid under the old system. To quote the Navy News:

“Core meals are an important element of PAYD – for the amount of money you paid the month before PAYD came in you should be able to obtain the required food of the required nutritional value,” said Lt Cdr John Cunane, Deputy Base Supply Officer at Culdrose.

“The core meal is a full cooked breakfast, a two-course lunch and a three-course evening meal, which you will be able to buy for £3.38 per day as a single liver-in.



A 'full-cooked breakfast doesn't include tea, coffee, toast or fruit juice. Oh and you could have 6 items but only one of each (I believe that's now been reduced to 5).

In practice, the choice is slim and it compares very poorly (nutritionally) with that served to prisoners! I lived in the Mess for about 10 weeks last year; on more than one occasion I went in for dinner and left without eating because of the menu. Oh, and it was the only time in 19 years of service that I've sent food back to the kitchen for being so crap.


STH

[D O Guerrero]

I do sympathise with people having to put up with this crap... but mainly from the point of view that the food is so bloody awful under PAYD. It always seemed rather unfair that I had to pay a flat rate for my food and got no credit for any missed meals.
Having had JRs in my division who still manage to go overdrawn when the only outgoing that they can put down on the cheque bouncers form is their mobile phone, I wonder if PAYD might actually have a beneficial effect in the long run? In that perhaps it will teach some financial responsibility to those who lack it (of all ranks and rates). There are a large number of people in the services who are happy for the system to take responsibility for their lives and effectively become institutionalised - perhaps a dose of the real world when you're not on ops might be a good thing.
Just a thought, but I'm standing by...

[spheroid]

You could argue that the reason young men and women are starving is because of the system...but then again, we are part of the system.
How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances? I remember once talking to one of my guys (who was hopelessly overdrawn) how to manage a bank account. He remarked that he couldn't possibly be overdrawn as he had 6 cheques left in his cheque book !!!!!!!


It is the Officers who should feel ashamed not the MOD.

[Melchett01]

What people really wanted was not PAYD, just some fairness in the system by enabling people to separate food from accommodation charges so they didn't pay for food when they weren't in barracks etc. After all, the RAF is quick to claim back anything it believes you owe - whether you do or not - so why shouldn't it be the other way round too?

However, I see under the changes of 1 Apr that this seems to now be an option if you are away for over 24hrs and put a leave pass in in advance to state as much. If we can do this now, why couldn't we have just done it in the first place instead of going down this god-awful PAYD route which will only end in tears and no doubt a legal case when a junior under training falls over due to malnutrition.

The real test of this will be if people stay in SLA over the weekend but choose not to eat in the mess because they are out all day; if the capability exists to stop food charges for the day in this case, then I cannot see how PAYD can ever be implemented as the system will have shown it to have been superceded by a simple change of regs.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/FeedNavy.jpg

My how things have improved in 61 years.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/FeedNavyed.jpg

"Four good meals a day". "Everything's Free".

[TheInquisitor]

The way to stop PAYD is simple. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, on a unit should stop eating in the messes altogether. Also, don't use ANY of the on-base recreational facilities, bars, NAAFI, etc - go to the local pub or downtown instead.

The companies running this fiasco would then suffer massive losses and the scheme would have to be abandoned.

A cynic might think that the reason the core menus have been turned into absolute chod is to force you into paying more for edible food...more profit for the contractors, since they surely can't be making money from providing just the core menu...

[Army Mover]

I never experienced PAYD while I was in, but at a recent re-union was told a story of a young squaddy who was pretty poor at organising his personal finances, being warned for going abroad for a 6-month long detachment, being paid an advance of his allowances prior to departing, only to have his bank take the lot to recover his overdraft; end result was the serviceman was unable to deploy anywhere, but now had an advance to pay back with no money in the bank - bizarre. :sad:

I wonder if the bank had re-assessed the risk associated with lending money to servicemen and decided to cut their potential losses?

[Melchett01]

You could argue that the reason young men and women are starving is because of the system...but then again, we are part of the system.
How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances? I remember once talking to one of my guys (who was hopelessly overdrawn) how to manage a bank account. He remarked that he couldn't possibly be overdrawn as he had 6 cheques left in his cheque book !!!!!!!


It is the Officers who should feel ashamed not the MOD.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there don't you think? Yes, as officers we should look after the welfare and administration of those we lead. However, that doesn't mean spoon feeding them. The RAF is generally thought to attract the more intelligent elements from the broader pool of applicants the the Services; we expect them to demonstrate that intelligence in their daily duties and on operations. And in the majority of cases, they live up to those expectations.

Some however, will never live up to the expectations of a little bit of intelligence and common sense. Is it the fault of the officers as a whole? Well maybe - if we haven't done our job to train these people or bring them on when we spot weaknesses. However, in some cases, certain individuals serve no purpose in the military other than to act as a warning to others. You can lead them, instruct them, if necessary order them all day and night and it still wouldn't sink in. How on earth are you supposed to deal with that?

This whole point though, still doesn't change the fact that PAYD is a poorly thought out, woefully executed commercial operation that has no part to play in the daily life of any of the armed forces. It merely exists to make money out of a captive audience and generate a few more medals and titles for those - who should know better - that are involved in its introduction. If the RAF wants to go into business, it should stick to flogging lunchboxes and bikinis rather than exploiting its personnel for commercial gain.

[BEagle]

Surely 'PAYD' and civilian contractorisation are 2 different things?

'PAYD' was supposed to stop Peter being robbed to feed Paul. But costs are inevitably going to increase under the creeping cancer of contractorisation - because these companies do, funnily enough, expect to make some profit.

[moosemaster]

I was lucky enough to miss the worst of this during my "time", having only experienced it for a few days on a visit to Halton last year.

As I had visited Halton a few months before PAYD had been introduced, then a few months afterwards, the differences were stark, and quite depressing.

iirc a cup of tea was/is included in the core breakfast menu, as was a slice of toast (but butter/jam was not). From the normal "Full English" you could select only 5 items, and they were broken down further into more specific food groups. The "hostess" commented one morning that I was only allowed to have "3 carbohydrates" on my plate, so I would have to pay for one of my 2 sausages or a piece of bacon!

As mine was only a classroom based course, it was no real hardship for me, however the guys doing the physical stuff may have struggled on such meagre portions. Yes, I am sure the meal did meat the required calorific value as determined under the governments recommended daily intake for an average male. However, take into account all the extra activity military students, or even average squaddies do on a daily basis, and I'll bet a pound to a penny it falls short.

Combine that with the fact that civilianisation. IT always used to be if you had a bad meal, there was banter to be given to the cooks by the "lads", so there was some incentive to buy good produce. Now the only incentive is profit margins, and all the cooks go home and have no interaction with the "lads" at all.

In my mind, not the best move ever made. I'm glad I'm out.

[Mr C Hinecap]

There are plenty here who are saying PAYD is a terrible thing, not in my day, eroding etc etc. I'll echo what a few have said and say the troops wanted it!

Rather than saying 'it is cr@p', tell me how you would make it work? Either you pay for everything (which isn't wanted) or you pay for what you consume (which is PAYD). What is your answer?

I have my own thoughts on this, but how would you solve it?

[TheInquisitor]

How about this:

1. The mess runs as it did previously. You are not 'rationed' as to how many sausages you can eat, etc. Food charges remain as they were.

2. You take a meal in the mess, you sign for it.

3. At the end of the month, you are charged (through pay) for those meals you have taken. You do not pay for meals you have not taken.

This is what everybody thought they were getting when PAYD was first mooted.

Yes, overall reciepts from food charges will drop, but the mess will soon enough figure how much food to stock / prepare to prevent waste. If the above somehow leads to not enough money being put into the food budget, then we have, somewhere along the line, been scammed for years.

BINGO! - so THAT'S why they didn't do it this way.....

[Gainesy]

Can anyone post examples of the core menus for those of us who are no longer serving?

[blue monday]

How can they ration the number of items/courses you can have when, i have been led to believe that in the QE's there is a statement to the effect of you are entitled to eat in the mess untill full up (don't know the exact wording but it came from a reliable barrack room lawyer), i had the fortune to serve the RAF pre PAYD and when RAF chefs cooked the food, it was allways a good standerd and of better quality than Army messes i visited! I also had no issues with the robbing peter to pay paul scenario of paying for your meals regardless of whether you ate otr not as the figures involved were not great and everyone benifitted from it with the better quality food.

[endplay]

Another problem with PAYD is that you can only access the core menu at specific times. During a week long visit to Leuchars some 3 years ago my colleagues and I could only make the core breakfast, all others were out of core hours. At the end of the week we were all some £60-70 out of pocket.

It was what people asked for, and for some it has worked well, but it has taken a huge bite out of the culture of the military that is detrimental in every respect.

Loved the life whilst I was in but glad to be out of it now.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Ironically, perhaps, on Truth Central last Friday ( http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/DefenceIntranet/News/DefenceNews/Army/TroopsPutTheirTasteBudsToTheTest.htm for thosewith)

Troops put their taste buds to the test.
09/05/2008

Soldiers from the Welsh Guards have taken the opportunity to be food critics for the day after they were challenged to sample a selection of meals which may eventually make it onto the menu for troops, both in the UK and on operations around the world. Based at Wellington Barracks the Guardsmen took part in a Food Selection Panel (FSP), which is a process used by the MOD’s Defence Food Services team to choose items for the core range list. The list is a catalogue for caterers on ships, submarines and at all operational bases.

The tasting panels are carried out monthly and alternate between the services giving all soldiers, sailors and air personnel the opportunity to have a direct influence on the food that is served at their units. This latest test included a selection of hams, chocolate cakes and pasta salads
Lieutenant Colonel Simon Blake from the Operations and Food Supply Management team at Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) said:

"Food is vitally important to the morale of our Armed Forces, especially whilst deployed on operations. The food served to our soldiers, sailors and airmen is well-balanced, nutritious and plentiful and, unless they are away from the main camp, the majority of our troops eat freshly prepared hot and cold meals, cooked by professional skilled Service chefs, using a wide range of commercial rations including fresh fruit and vegetables.

"We use the Food Selection Panels to ensure that our armed forces have an opportunity to give their opinions in a relaxed and open environment."
Squadron Leader Dave Tanner from the Defence Food Services Integrated Project Team at DE&S is responsible for co-ordinating the tasting panels:

"The Food Selection Panel process is a tried and tested method that we have used in selecting our products for many years," he said. "Once the tasters have completed their organoleptic profiles, the product scores are then reviewed by the committee and assessed against several criteria, namely: nutritional content, exportability, shelf life, packaging, security of supply chain, surge capacity of suppliers, sustainability and Value for Money. This ensures that the troops get the best quality at the optimum price."

The Defence Food Services IPT works extremely closely with Purple Foodservice Solutions which is the prime contractor for its worldwide food supply. Purple's Managing Director Paul Dickinson said:

"We are responsible for getting 1,500 different fresh, chilled, ambient and frozen food products to 1,200 different military locations that are as far flung as the South Atlantic, Germany, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq. The Food Selection Panels help us greatly in making sure that the products we buy are actually the ones service men and women want to see on their plates.

"Equally important is having the confidence that the committee of food experts have passed these products as nutritious and healthy. We are very grateful for the help we get from the many people of all three services who take part in these tasting panels."

[ZH875]

Purple Foodservice Solutions

Now is that 'Purple' as in 'Joint' or Purple as in 'Purple Ronnie', answers on a birthday card to .....

[Old Ned]

Inquisitor,

I like your suggestion, surely the only way ahead is to sign for what you eat, having selected a menu of choice. Good food at a reasonable price will doubtless bring in the customers; conversely bad or over-priced food will drive them away. The monthly food bill could then be deducted from your pay, or you could pay on the way out. Hello contractors, how do you suppose large restaurants manage?

I do hope though that we never descend to the US idea of a "motorway catering" style of service, with various stalls offering cholesterol-fill rubbish. (Although I must confess that the cinnamon buns at Ramstein are yummy).

The best catering I ever experienced was in the South Catering tent at Port Stanley in '82. Filthy conditions, windy as hell, but the food (all cooked under field conditions) was outstanding. The Service chefs took a real pride in what they were doing and the boys responded. I know the food was free, but the point is that good food can be provided and surely economy of scale should ensure a fair price. The DMR was never very much, yet we seemed to manage when the "uniforms" ran the show.

What do the RN do afloat, I wonder?

Pip pip ON

[ZH875]

What do the RN do afloat, I wonder?


Don't ask, that will certainly put you off your food!:E

[Old Ned]

ZH875

Gosh, I mean.......:O:O

Pip pip ON

[artyhug]

How about this:

1. The mess runs as it did previously. You are not 'rationed' as to how many sausages you can eat, etc. Food charges remain as they were.

2. You take a meal in the mess, you sign for it.

3. At the end of the month, you are charged (through pay) for those meals you have taken. You do not pay for meals you have not taken.

This is what everybody thought they were getting when PAYD was first mooted.


One slight problem TheInquisitor, anyone who thought that were living in cloud cuckoo land.

The only way the whole messing arrangement worked was because of the fact that alot of people didn't eat every meal. It was therefore perfectly possible for those who were eating at the time to have as much as they wanted. It most certainly however cost more than the set fee that was being paid by that individual for that meal.

The kitchen/mess staff are no fools, they knew what proportion of livers-in to expect at each meal and cooked accordingly. PAYD removed that ability to reassign funds between meals/livers-in and resulted in an inevitable decrease in quantity of food available.

Quality however, now that's a contractorisation issue and don't get me started there....

[SlopJockey]

Did it cost more than the price of a pint everyday to eat till your sides split?

No way so why did we whinge?

Yes the quality was better but the focus was on quality not profit. Chefs took pride in offering a wide range of food that was plentiful and well cooked. They knew that the uptake over the entire month maybe 60-65% of the meals and could pinpoint days when they expected only 10-15% mainly duty staff, at weekends and grants. This gave them flex to manage the food on offer.

We got duty suppers cos we worked nightshift and brunches on sat/sun where due to the few people around the chef could make up or prepare small portions for those recovering from the previous nights exceesses, where we had often spent many times the price of a beer. :hmm:

Good value bloody right it was.:ok:

I blame the same people that keep changing the design of the wooly pully, scrotes without a life.

SJ

[D O Guerrero]

Old Ned - all meals onboard in the RN are free. Even when the Ship is alongside. I have heard rumours that this might change - although I suspect any changes would only be when alongside and for non-duty personnel.

As for:
"How many of you can honestly say that you have sat down with the men under your command and discussed their finances?"
Yes, I can. Isn't taking an interest in your people part of the job? Presumably the other 2 services take an interest when cheques are bounced back to the unit?

[Green Flash]

They knew that the uptake over the entire month maybe 60-65% of the meals and could pinpoint days when they expected only 10-15% mainly duty staff, at weekends and grants. This gave them flex to manage the food on offer

In other words, an experienced Chef and/or Mess Manager. Who will expect to be paid comensurate with thier experience and skill.

Compared to a 17 year old burger flipper ......

Money, in the end. It's just down to money. Oh, and blind ignorance to drive something to it's illogical conclusion and the fear of loss of face when it goes predicatably t!ts.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

The fiasco that is PAYD would not allow an army to march on its stomach to No 10 and as a Commander I have no right to meddle in the financial affairs of my troops. Nor can I take the action I used to be able to do, like confiscate their cheque books and credit cards and deal direct with creditors to either protect the reputation of the service or the individual.

The MOD is being hoisted by its own petard, but it is us that must suffer; A roof or some sort of protection over our heads, 3 meals a day even if they are compo, and somewhere to let off steam, PAYD erodes 2 of these fundamentals of service life and is affecting the 3rd with the drive to close down sqn bars etc. The distinct difference from a camp with PAYD to a camp that is still 'service' is vast and should clearly illustrate to those in town that this, together with MHS and JPA should be revisited and someone with testicles or a good dose of oestrogen should reverse the erosion of the basic tennets of service life. :mad: but they wont.

[blogger]

I spent 25 years in the RAF and heard about PAYD while being a space cadet thats going back 30 years.

The trial of PAYD has been going on aleast 5 years now may be more....... come off it they know what in good and bad about it but the truth is that lawyers are waitng in the shadows........ PAYD or back to the old method is only going to raise money for lawyers.

Food is the forces>>>>>>>>never had a good meal except when the AOC was visiting the station.

[Kengineer-130]

Of course. we could always just do the right thing, and provide free food for all troops who live in/ and/or require it such as duty personnel etc...

Do prisoners pay for thier food? :ugh:

[OHP 15M]

Do prisoners pay for their food?

Well Bobby Sands died a rich man ..... he saved his dinner money each day!

:ok:

[ZH875]

Do prisoners pay for their food?

Well Bobby Sands died a rich man ..... he saved his dinner money each day!

:ok:

But he still had to pay his Telephone Bill.

His number was 8040, his mate was 80402 :E

[ricardian]

Many, many moons ago (I left the RAF in 1973) one of the reps on the Airmen's Messing Committee stood up at one of the regular meetings and complained about the lack of choices for lunch. The grizzled WO i/c Catering raised his eyebrows and remarked that every day there were 14 choices for lunch, including a steak bar, a salad bar, a curry bar etc, etc. The aforesaid rep responded with "But it's the same 14 every day" :ugh:
My only comment on the current thread is that I ate in Army messes for 3 years (as a Cpl) and although the Army Catering Corps did their best they did not seem to get the same quality of food as that provided to the RAF messes. However, it was a long time ago!