Singapore Airlines Tail Strike at Sydney

[storyman]

SQ232 had a tailstrike on November 8th out of Sydney. It has been reported that the Boeing 777 aircraft continued on to Singapore instead of returning for a structural inspection.

Could someone please verify that the aircraft failed to return to Sydney, and what the procedure is for a tailstrike on the B777.

Storyman......

[tittsup]

777 QRH States
EICAS Message TAIL STRIKE
Condition. A tail strike has been detected

OUTFLOW VALVE SWITCHES (both) MANUAL
OUTFLOW VALVE MANUAL SWITCHES (both) OPEN
Position outflow valves fully open to depressurise the airplane.

Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport.

tits

[McGinty]

So, what is the story then? Did the tail strike occur or not? If it did and the crew knew about it and yet did not land asap, then what are we to make of this further evidence of SQ pilot culture?

[L1011]

Scenario: ATC reports you had a tailstrike (possibly info relayed by another aircraft).

Tailstrike is a caution message on EICAS (Boeing ECAM) with the beeper- which is "designed to alert the crew to a non-normal operational or system condition requiring immeadiate crew awareness."

The checklist titsup posted is brought up by the EICAS, if the Tailstrike is detected by the system.

What if EICAS showed nothing? The pressurisation is normal. Can the crew talk to Engineering and make a decision? Or must you return anyway?

[hounddog high]

Was it "TAIL SKID" eicas advisory? In which case no worries. I have heard some crew got so worked up with this message thinking the a/c hit the tail skid.
Actually it meant tail skid position disagree with gear lever position.

[titan]

Seems a few other pilots actually saw the tailstrike.
So if the SIA/Boeing procedure is to return to the nearest airfield, the question here is what did the crew actually do.

[whalemonster]

Singapore as a whole,meaning the country,airline ,people,etc as we all know don't like media coverage and publicity.
They have just had a nasty tarnish and a heavy burden on their conscious,with the Taiwan affair,so I doubt it if they want another mishap on CNN etc.
All things set aside,if the aircraft after the tail strike has to land as soon as possible,no liason with any engineering in the world plecudes the commander from not observing the manufacturers guide,called for in the QRH.I wonder if the above is true,whether SIA,will retain its certificate of airworthiness from CAAS(Singapore),additionally,not forgetting the operators certificate is in question too.

[Alpha757]

There was a report on one of the newsgroups recently that an SQ B777 lost its APU midway to SIN from Sydney (over the Gold Coast) and that it returned to SYD - is this related? It had the same flight number.

[This message has been edited by Alpha757 (edited 10 November 2000).]

[Alpha757]

Sorry, could be wrong on the previous - see http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/breakingnews/sia41_1101.html

Seems it was a generator fault and it went back to BNE - also a B744 lost an engine on take off at Changi - they are not having a pleasant time (and they're advertising for crew in Flight!)

[noodles]

What would AIRMANSHIP dictate?

[WAIF-er]

As I recall, didnt the JAL 747 in the early eighties break up due to a botched repair after a tailstrike?

[Jr. Airman]

A/C Concerned was 9V-SYB.

SYD twr reported seeing "DUST" on liftoff.
No EICAS advisories of any sort. SQ Engineers I'm told had a look at it in Singapore found no signs of a tail strike or even scratch marks on the skid.

[Gladiator]

Similar incident on B747-300 in 1992 out of LAX. LAX tower notified the crew that other aircraft have reported seeing sparks fly out of the tail of the aircraft during rotation. The flight had a trainee S/O as PF.

The Captain of the flight, a Singaporean Senior Instructor Pilot elected to ignore the advisory and continued to NRT (Japan).

The S/O (expat) resigned a week later. The Senior Instructor Pilot was retiring and was demoted to regular line captain. The F/O which was in the jumpseat got his rear chewed. He is no longer with SIA but still wonders why he had to bear part of the blame for the tailstrike.

PG correct me if the story is not accurate.

[Goldfish Jack]

Rumour has it that one of their B744s was also delayed at Cape Town last week due tech.

Any news?

[boeingbuff]

WAIF-er
Yup, the 747 in question was repaired by Boeing techs improperly. Only one row of rivets instead of two on the rear bulkhead. JAL maint, signed it off. If i remember right the JAL suit involved commited Suicide.

BB

[PILLOW]

Gladiator
Aluminium dont sparks . Iron and steel does . So the aircraft you said is sparking during a tail strike cannot be a B747 .

[compressor stall]

Please, dont let this SQ bashing degenerate into what we saw the media do to QF ... reporting every incident (APU shutdowns, spurious warnings and returning just in case etc, go arounds at LHR...) as evidence of a lack of safety culture. WE all know that no airline is immune to technology malfunctions...don't lambast them from it in the light of the recent tragedy. We regarded the media with contempt for it after QF BKK etc. be careful you are not lowering us to thier level.

I mean not to defend any culture in SQ as i have nothing to do with them and some of the above is legitimate conversation, some is less than (aviation) professional.

------------------
Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
William Blake

[camber]

Compressor Stall: DITTO

Next we will hear is "SQ Hostie breaks nail!" Possible tail strike, Gen offline, tech in Cape Town. Sounds like some Graduates from CNN Election Coverage Reporters School have found their war to this Forum.

[titan]

Pilow:
Well, if aluminium doesn't spark, and as sparks are burning metal, then aluminium mustn't burn either. Maybe those there planes are made out of gingerbread?
Incidently, planes are made from a great of variety of metals, and almost everyone an alloy - just to complicate matters.

[PILLOW]

TITAN
Next chance you have , talk to a Lame attending to your flight .
He might be able to explain to your better .
regards

[skyken]

Pillow,
Aluminum does indeed burn. If you take aluminum dust and ignite it, it burns with the brilliance of magnesium powder. If you've ever seen a belly landing, you will see aluminum sparking (burning). Granted it is softer than steel and not as prone to spark but it does as Titan has stated. If you want, I can get you the flash point of aluminum.

[PILLOW]

Skyken .....Thanks for the info


Titan ,, metallurgy is obviously not your strong point . Gingerbread is not classify as a metal .

[Boeing666]

being a -300, it had a tail skid, unlike the -200. anyway, the damn thing sticks out about a foot and a half. apparently, the skid touched the runway surface, but did not get deflected enough to activate the TAIL STRIKE message. all this according to the tower. in otherwords, if there was no tail skid, they would never have hit the ground. they would have been BLOODY CLOSE!!! but they wouldn't have struck anything. anyway, they had no indication to tell them that the skid had licked the runway, and they went on. by the way, non-local, non-asian commander flying the plane at the time. therefore must have been the plane's/airport's/FO's/iran's/muammar gaddafi's/anyone else's, but not the pilot's fault.

:) :) :)

just kidding!!! hahahaha......
cheers.




[This message has been edited by Boeing666 (edited 19 November 2000).]

[titan]

.... why bother...

[PILLOW]

Barring lab condition , the only metals that burn is magnesium , sodium and potassium . Magnesium is used on some engine gearbox .

Sparking is different from burning .

Anyone who have used a grinding wheels knows that iron/steel sparks but not aluminium . ( It is illegal to grind aluminium )

In a belly landing , the sparks you see is probably from the brakes , landing gears , engine cowlings or engines .

Titan , read the Structural Repair manuals if you want to know more about aluminium alloy .

Cheers

[Angle of Attack]

PILLOW, if there is oxygen and enough heat aluminium will bloody burn like napalm mate, in fact almost all metals will burn if there is high enough temperature.

[titan]

Pillow:
A little bit of knowledge is dangerous.
Alumumium DOES burn(oxidises; look at the remains of any aircraft accident after there has been a fire - you don't see much do you?

One does not use aluminium with a grinding wheel because it fuses amongst the carborundum particles causing stress and the possibility of the wheel coming apart.

BUT MOST OF ALL, THEY DON'T MAKE TAIL STRIKE PADS OUT OF ALUMINIUM!!!!!

[Arkroyal]

Try telling the guys who died in HMS Sheffield in 1982 that Aluminium alloys don't burn!

Get it hot enough (exocet motor burning in contact with it) and it will burn very fiercely.

[PILLOW]

TITAN
A B747-300 do not have a tail strike

[titan]

PILLOW:
Get with the program! The thread is about the 777 out of Sydney.

Aren't the solid booster tockets on the Space Shuttle fuelled by an aluminium compound? A little hazy, but it rings a bell.

[OldBold]

In the 1980's SIA had a policy of never publishing details of its (many) incidents to any of its crews - only the briefest mention of incidents appeared in the Safety Digest. This was because they felt that any adverse publicity could be used by their competitors. They had no compunction about publishing full details of any other airline however and their Flight Safety magazine was full of OTHER airline accidents and incidents. Do they still have this policy ? Their crews had to learn from other airline mistakes, never from their own. If they had a tail strike at SYD they would want to keep it under wraps too. NOT a good safety culture !

[PILLOW]

Titan

I said ....... Steel/iron spark , aluminium dont

you said ..... aluminium burns

I said ....... there is a difference between sparking and burning

you said ....... aluminium burns


That was an excellent text book answer on aluminium grinding . Full mark !!!!
If you do want to grind aluminium , Use a grinding belt .

Your next assignment is to find out WHY IRON/STEEL SPARKS .

Hint 1 Pure iron do not spark !
hint 2 cast iron sparks a lot more than steel
Hint 3 Run your finger along a cast iron and your finger turns black/dirty
Hint 4 Cast iron is brittle and steel is tough
Hint 5 pure iron is soft

[Kaptin M]

A tail strike advisory on a triple 7, is fields apart from an ATC reported visual strike in 1992 [on a 74-300....quote, Gladiator].

BUT, without trying to downplay either, in the end, it comes down to the crew!

[titan]

PILLOW:
"there is a difference between sparking and burning"
....... well this is going to be a good story. Please proceed and inform us all.

PS the sand pit is out the back.