IMC/Night ratings

[benish]

Hi all, Im starting a modular route to a fATPL in the Summer.

Im just doing a budget. Do I need to budget in an IMC and Night rating for my PPL?

If so will the hours achieved from doing these ratings count towards the 45 needed to hold a PPL?

Thanks in advance

[A and C]

The IMC or night rating won't count towards your PPL.

Doing the night rating is a good idea as night hours are the thing that some people have trouble with to get the professional licence issued.

In pure money terms it is not worth doing the IMC as the trainning will not count towards the IR, however if you can get an IMC course at a cheap price and stay in practice during your hour building it will no doubt make the IR less hectic and if you get a first time pass at the IR because of the extra IF practice it will have been worth doing.

What you have to balance with the IMC is the cost vs the cost of another IR test in a multi engine if you don't get a first time pass.

As you can see the IMC is a tricky call, my personal opinion would be to do the IMC as the IR is a big step to take all at once................. others on this forum may well disagree.

[IRISHPILOT]

Well, the IMC is not a JAR rating, so you do not need it. It may be good practice though, as mentioned before.

The night qualification is not a rating, no test, just the requirement done with an FI.

Generally, a JAA PPL is done by people who don't have to worry about how much they spend of for sentimental reasons, as you will loose it upon gaining the next higher licence (not sure if you can keep an IMC?).

Usually, people do an ICAO PPL (anywhere outside JAR), that comes with a free night qualification (FAA springs to mind, but not only). The money you save on that could be spent on IR training (I don't mean the rating) or just extra hours.

Why limit your experience to just one island? Airlines don't do that either...

cheers IP

[EK4457]

The Night QUALIFICATION (not rating) can be done as part of your 45 hours of PPL training. Just make sure you meet the NQ requirements (solo circuits and nav with instuctor) and log it correctly. You then have it issued on your PPL. It is not a rating, therefore the hours CAN count for both. Some schools do not like this as they miss out on an extra £700 after your PPL. Do not be told otherwise. You can do it.


IMC IS a rating, so has to be done seperately. However, you do NOT need an IMC to get your ATPL. You need an IR. In fact, it was designed for those who like to fly PPL in marginal wx but did not want an IR. A handfull of people like to get it as they say it helps you with the IR later down the line. However, most don't have a spare £4000 knocking around to get somthing they just don't need.

To summarise, in theory, you don't need to budget for either.

It's not often you get good news like that in aviation. Trust me.

EK

[daria-ox]

Don't waste your money on IMC, spend it on building hours or save money towards your IR ;) You dont really need IMC so why waste money?

[Shunter]

Firstly, (and I'm sorry to spoil your elite party), if you paid £4k for an IMC rating you've been well and truly bent over and buggered. Providing you can make the grade in decent hours, £2k is more like it.

Don't underestimate the usefulness of an IMC rating, especially if you're hour-building in the UK and don't want to be grounded when it's hazy or there's low cloud around. Some regard it as a "get out of jail" card, but the DH minima are just the same as those for an IR (contrary to what some would have you believe). I've taken off in 2000m viz, cruised above cloud in the sunshine at FL100, then flown precision approaches to <300ft on my IMC rating. It does not give you access to Class A airspace, and has a 1800m viz limit for take-off/landing, but aside from that, and within the UK, it confers essentially the same privileges as an IR. You'll find it has a huge effect on your ability to hold headings and altitudes far more accurately without evening thinking about it.

As far as wasting money goes, it's entirely possible to do your PPL, Night Qual, IMC Rating, Hour Build and CPL, and still not have 200hrs in your logbook. I had my 100hrs P1 before I had my 150hrs TT and I did the IMC rating. Don't knock it until you've tried it!

[bajadj]

sorry if this seems a dumb question, but as the night qualification is neither a rating nor licence, does this mean it can be done in the states without a training visa??? I know ratings and licences can't, but as there is no test involved, is this possible?

[EK4457]

I'm sorry to spoil your elite party

Eh? You'll have to explain that one to me.

the DH minima are just the same as those for an IR (contrary to what some would have you believe).

Although there is a grey area here, the CAA recommend adding 200ft and an absolute minima of 500ft for an IMC rated pilot, as opposed to IR. It is unclear how it would be viewed if you did break these recommendations and have an incident. Not very good I would suggest.

Besides, not my point. The whole point of hour building is for your CPL. This is VFR. Instrument approaches are no use at all if you need to practise VFR navigation.

£2k is more like it.

Ok. Actually more with test fee, A/C hire, adding to license. But, again, not my point. You don't need it. It was not designed as a 'lead up' to the IR as you, and many others, suggest.

The fact is, the IR is 55 hours. Even if the IMC has made you an excellent IR pilot, you still need to do the 55 hours.

It is a luxury which most cannot afford. And nobody needs. Although I'm sure it's very enjoyable if you did it. It was designed for a very specific reason, nothing to do with ATPL.

Anyone can join this party!

EK

[daria-ox]

Its probably a great thing.. no one says it isnt.
But why waste your money, when you dont have millions to do the course when really you dont need it?

Its surely helps but instead of doing that you can put your money towards your IR because IMC doesnt really help you in getting you an ATPL. Does it? :rolleyes:

[Fastair345]

Done both the IMC a Night just to make me a better Pilot and then to consider taking things further. CPL and Stuff......

Night

Do this at the same time as your PPL if you can hack it. It's a bit different and make sure you listen when your instructor talks about Radio Navigation. After Qualifying the world looks different at night and sometimes you cannot just rely on SVFR Nav especially in an unfamiliar area. Alot of the responses in this thread just consider Qualifications and things are different when you are all alone in the AC at night. My advise is do it! Enjoy and remember I know IR pilots who would not fly SVFR in an area they did not know without the use of Radio NAV aids at night.

IMC

The cost is probably south of 3k. If you want to do IR then ask the Instructor to teach most of the letdowns (Procedures) as many are happy to teach mostly the Vectored ILS as this is the common approach Method. Even this for a new Pilot is not easy to fly in proper IR conditions. I did it to improve my skills and see if I could hack an IR. For me I could just do all the letdowns but not that well.(in 15 hrs)..NDB only is another story.

My Instructors response when I commented this was difficult was that it does not get any easier, you just get used to the difficulty!

.....do the IMC and make yourself a better Pilot when your Hour Building !!

would think the total time counts in some way anyway.


F345

[Keygrip]

benish - I know I'm going to get bitten for saying this - but if you have to ask ask what ratings/qualifications you can do as part of your PPL then you really are not in a position to start calculating the budget for an ATPL.

If anybody wants to bite, go ahead, I don't care any more - just trying to help.

As has been said, there's no such thing anymore as a night rating nor is there any such thing as a "frozen ATPL".

The night *CAN* be flown as part of your PPL despite what you've been told here - but then so can your (so called) "hour building".

Why not take your PPL skill test (required for ATPL groundschool) at 100 hours total time with some 65 command? The PPL is *NOT* a 45 hour course.

[Keygrip]

bajadj - yes, you can do the night in the USA under the UK authorities - but why do you want to?

Part of other courses/training- yeah, ok, maybe - from a finacial point of view only. As a stand alone qualification - absolutely pointless.

You don't (normally) learn to fly at night in the USA. You learn how to follow a GPS on a "heads down" cross country and you learn how to do circuits - probably at your base airfield.

There's a lot more to night flying than that.

[bajadj]

keygrip, thankyou for bringing me good news!!, the reason being, I'm just about done with atpl groundschool and I'm shooting off to work in greece for the summer and i don't think i'll have time to do a night rating here in the uk before I go and I'm doing my hours build in october and again i'll be pushed for time on the 28 day stamp, so i could minimise the effect of weather delays if i can fly at night.

[benish]

benish - I know I'm going to get bitten for saying this - but if you have to ask ask what ratings/qualifications you can do as part of your PPL then you really are not in a position to start calculating the budget for an ATPL.

Im just trying to understand everything. Yes, no need to bite!

[EK4457]

would think the total time counts in some way anyway

It does count towards your 150 hours total time required but not the 100 hours P1. Since your PPL is around 50 hours, in terms of CPL 'hour building', it is useless. It also works out at a very expensive hourly rate when all is said and done (£150+).

Again, if you have £3k to spare and the time, enjoy it. But it is not useful towards the ATPL. And the type of hour building you 'should' be doing for your CPL should not need an IMC rating. It's supposed to be VFR.

Keygrip. Couldn't agree more. Be careful though. I've critisized flying in the US (and parts of europe) many times on here, only to piss quite a few people off. I have seen US trained PPL's come here who's idea of VRF navigation is 'follow the coast and left at Disneyland'. I've also seen a PPL skills test in someones log book as 45 minutes blocks to blocks! I digress.....

It's just silly to do an IMC if you're going to do an IR a couple of months later.

EK

[Prophead]

As far as the IMC is concerned i would say it all depends on how you intend to do your hour building.

If you are doing it in the UK over an extended period then yes, id say get an IMC and use it as well. No matter what anyone says it will make the IR easier as you will have become used to certain procedures and have less to concentrate on.

If your hour building involves going to the US and knocking out as many hours as possible in as little time as possible then dont bother. You obviously aren't interested in using the 100 hours to make you a more skilled pilot in a variety of situations as its intended to do.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Too many people just see the 100 hours PIC requirement as an obsticle to be gotten around in as quickly, easy and cheaply a way as possible. This is the time you should be mixing up your flying a bit and enjoying it too. Get as many extra skills as you can.

I cannot believe some of the posts on here saying it is a waste of time. Anything that makes you a better pilot is not a waste of time whether is aeros, floats whatever.

While were at it dont just do one long CPL flight either, get yourself used to doing long flights early on in your hour building. Get yourself down into France etc. Once you realise how easy & rewarding it is you will do it more often anyway.

There is nothing more useless than 100 hours of flying round Florida done in one month along with long periods of no flying.

[EK4457]

Prophead, I completely agree. I think some people have a terrible attitude towards the 100 P1 hours requirement for the CPL. See another thread currently floating around on exactly this subject (and the offence I seem to have caused!).

I do disagree with this IMC business though. The hour building is supposed to be VFR. Thus, the IMC is useless. Yes, it can give you a taster of the IR, but this effectively turns the IR into a 70 hour course. Unless you need the extra hours, an absolute waste of money.

Don't forget, only the UK have the IMC rating. If you were doing a foreign ATPL, it wouldn't be an option. Every other country in the world manages fine without it.

I do think it is an excellent rating, provided it is used for the reasons it was designed for.

EK