V Force Scramble!

[denis555]

I remember seeing an old RAF photograph from the fifties showing a V Bomber crew rushing from their ground transport ( a Standard Ensign as I remember ) towards their plane in some sort of cold war exercise.

Given that the crews had to be airborne in the minimum time possible, did the RAF provide a Standard Ensign for each crew , parked neatly outside whatever crew rooms were available for the V-Force crews?

What was the procedure for scrambles – anyone know?

[Blacksheep]

I know the photo you mean and you can find a copy on the Vulcans In Camera site. In my time they came over from their quarters at the Ops Block in bog standard Crew Busses, one for each crew. I never saw a Vulcan crew wearing hats on a QRA alert either.

We'd dash 'two-six' out of our grotty old caravans right next to the dispersals (which weren't the ORPs on the end of the runway that were used for demo scrambles) at the sound of the hooter and get our allotted bomber alive and kicking. It wasn't that much of a rush for them 'cos we'd be busy getting power on and removing the bungs and blanks, while the crews took a more leisurely drive from their luxurious accommodation. As befitting poor folks who might be leaving on a suicide mission.

Of course, being firmly rooted at a primary target bomber base, we'd have been painlessly vapourised ourselves, long before they crossed the Norwegian coast... :uhoh:

[forget]

This is a cracker. Seems to me the local butcher was passing the mess when the crew bus wouldn't start. :hmm:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/vulcan_scramble.jpg

[denis555]

Tee Hee...

I must admit despite the serious nature of a real scramble there is something comical about seeing the crew rushing around in their flightsuits..

Thanks Blackshhep for poining me in the right direction.
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_copyright/572_scampton.jpg

[Dan Winterland]

A 15 yard sprint was about as far as most V Bomber crews could manage. Self included! :O

[denis555]

Would it be going too far to think that the ‘official’ picture showed our gallant crew emerging from a smart (fast?) saloon car in smart hats to reassure the public that our brave boys spared not a second in speeding off to teach the Ruskies a lesson?

( I wonder if that car belonged to the Staish and the publicity people borrowed it for the photo???)

On the other hand, in the real world, our boys emerge hatless from an old Morris J2 minibus ( top speed 52mph?) in a not so reassuring image…

[Fareastdriver]

That's a Standard Vanguard station wagon or shooting brake if you'r posh.
In the early sixties one crew from 55 and 57 used to do QRA from anywhere on the station, each crew with their own Standard Vanguard. Lunch and dinner was taken at the mess and so was the evening as they were allocated rooms in the mess.
The cars each had a garage and a Nato type 12 volt plugs connected which would ensure that the car started when required.
On one occasion a crew member missed his car and hitched a lift with the other. The result was two Victors running with four in one aircraft and six in the other.
On another occasion, not at Honington, the crew arrived and the aircraft's Chief Tech was a bit premature in hitting the Simstart button. One nuclear armed V bomber running with the crew outside saying "I gave you the keys"'. "No, you didn't".

[Lancelot37]

Four minute warning.

My memory from R.A.F Cottesmore, 10 Squadron - Victors) was that the crew lived in "caravans" at the end of the runway. The a/c had been DI'd and locked with a key 'till the "alarm" went off. The crew ran to the a/c and took off on a mission (practice).

Three went on the mission and the last of the four did a circuit and returned to base. I'm sure that the pilot of No. was usually Group Captain Johnnie Johnson of Battle of Britain fame. I saw such a demo for many V.I.Ps including the King of Jordan.

We developed a trolley acc. full of rechargeable batteries, in a trolley, that was used as the power supply for starting the engines instead of the mobile generator that was on the pad.

As the last a/c took off the ground crew had but a few minutes to remove all chocks, bungs cables, the trolley acc. etc from the runway as the 4th a/c did it's circuit and landed. It was a frightening sight to see the a/c bearing down as the ground crew worked away.

The memory is dim, but that's how I remember it. Looking at the photos I'm surprised to see a/c that were other than white all over apart from the a/c registration marking and Squadron crest.

[denis555]

Fascinating stories here -

To one who knows very little about this period can anyone tell me if the (4 minute ?) QRA was reguallarly achieved ( from hooter to take off) ?

[Lancelot37]

It was as far as I was aware, at R.A.F Cottesmore.

>>To one who knows very little about this period can anyone tell me if the (4 minute ?) QRA was reguallarly achieved ( from hooter to take off) ?<<

[forget]

To one who knows very little about this period can anyone tell me if the (4 minute ?) QRA was regularly achieved ( from hooter to take off) ?

QRA aircraft carried a live weapon, and never left the ground. A QRA alert, Exercise Edom, would get the crews in, engines started, and then a fast taxi to the runway. Systems checked and then back to QRA.

Lancelot's mention of crews living in "caravans" at the end of the runway ..... The a/c had been DI'd and locked with a key 'till the "alarm" went off. The crew ran to the a/c and took off on a mission (practice) ...... This didn't apply to QRA aircraft. He's talking about the Operational Readiness Pans cut into the side of the runway end. These were never used for QRA but would have been if 'tensions' increased. They were routinely used to demonstrate 'QRA' scrambles - but with unarmed aircraft.

[Wader2]

The photo is probably representative as the photographer would never have been there on exercises etc.

The Vulcan is interesting as it has no nose probe but is in the 1964 camouflage when all Mk 2s, IIRC, had probes. That suggests a Scampton crew, maybe even the Blue Steel shed in the background.

The Scampton crews were in caravans by the Ops block. Waddington crews in purpose built (wartime) mess at Alpha dispersal. Coningsby used to use the east wing lower of the officers' mess and exit onto a public road (the Old Boston Road) through the crash gate and across the active - a green light meant proceed at speed, a red light meant proceed at speed but look left and right. Cottesmore, on the Vulcan wing used the lower west wing of the mess. This was the sportiest QRA as there were several tight bends before hitting the taxiway and the mile drive to the dispersals. I believe 10 and XV at Cottesmore also used the officers mess. On the disbandment of 10 Sqn, during the dining in night, they wrote XV IS BUMS in white paint on the QRA garage roof. They were told to paint it out; they did, with black paint. The roof is not black and was clearly visible 40 years later.:}

All crews had an individual Standard staff car. The sqn boss had one too before it was downgraded to a mini. As soon as a QRA exercise (EDOM) was called the crews would leg it for the aircraft. At the same time a standard 2-crew crew coach would scramble from MT and follow the QRA route to pick up crews from broken down or crashed cars.

Yes, we wore hats. We moved round the station while on QRA and the order of the day was hats, both in Ops and in Cars. As an aside we even flew with uniforms in case of diversion. But on QRA the hats would have enabled us to remain smart in a POW camp.

Notice the crews are not wearing their orange mae wests; this aircraft is obviously 'cocked' and life jackets, helments etc are on board.

Four minutes? Pure myth.

Crews were at 15 minutes. In tension they would have been brought to 5 minutes which was cockpit readiness, power on, engines off and could be held for around 5 hours before crew fatigue would become an issue.

The next stages was either start engines or 2 minutes. Start engines was just that. Two minutes was start engines and taxy to the take-off point. Blue Steel aircraft did not taxy. Aircraft could stand, engines running, for about 30 minutes but much longer could start to eat into fuel reserves.

On US SAC bases they went one further and we envied them. Throughout the base there were yellow beacon lamps on the lamp posts. The lights flashd and anyone not connected with the alert had to clear the road.

[Yellow Sun]

To one who knows very little about this period can anyone tell me if the (4 minute ?) QRA was reguallarly achieved ( from hooter to take off) ?

The QRA states were as follows:

RS15 - The "normal" state; crews able to be airborne within 15 minutes. This implied the crews either being close to the aircraft of having dedicated transport available. This RS could be held for days.

RS05 - Airborne within 5 minutes; crew in aircraft all systems and AAPP running but engines not started. This RS could be held for hours.

RS02 - Airborne within 2 minutes; engines running and in position on the ORP or at the holding point for the runway. If the aircraft was not on the ORP then they would taxi when the RS was raised from 05 to 02. This RS would not be expected to be held for longer than minutes.

There was also an exercise only state of "Start Engines", this was exactly what it said, you started and then shut down the engines. This was introduced because of restrictions on taxying the Blue Steel armed aircraft when they had an armed and fuelled missile. As stated above, we never got airborne with live weapons.

The procedures were practiced on a regular basis, the monthly Group exercise always had the first wave launched from the ORP and subsequent waves from their dispersals; all using the alert procedures. The Kinsman or Candella exercises to keep the dispersal airfields used also involved a launch of the flown in aircraft on the subsequent day. The generation exercises such as Mick or Mickey Finn always ended in an alert call out and launch where appropriate. As you may surmise, with that amount of practise we were actually quite good at it!

YS

[forget]

The photo is probably representative as the photographer would never have been there on exercises etc.

Photo blurb. (I Can't get the link to work.)

Standard Ensign Deluxe (a basic Standard Vanguard delivered c 1962) and Vulcan B2 (identified as B2 Blue Steel XM572 of the Scampton Wing) and crew c 1964. The photograph seems somewhat contrived as the crew, the aircraft and the environs (looks like Echo Dispersal at Scampton) do not suggest a genuine QRA setting.

[ZH875]

XM572 with Blue Steel missile:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/XM572.jpg


After XM572 was scrapped, she was turned into the following:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/P5120005.jpg


The model cost me £30 in 1984, the turbine blade came from the scrapyard at Waddington.

[Porrohman]

At a Leuchars Air Show in the late 70s or early 80s they did a simulated scramble of two Vulcans from an area close to the F4 QRA. They were airborne in a lot less than 5 minutes. IIRC they started all four engines in each aircraft almost simultaneously.

Was this a one-off display at Leuchars or was this routine repeated at other air shows? I attended many air shows at Leuchars over the years but can only remember this display happening once. Very impressive. :ok:

[forget]

IIRC they started all four engines in each aircraft almost simultaneously.

Vulcans did have a 'Mass Rapid' start ability - all four engines at once. But I have an idea it was disabled in the early sixties. Anyone?

--------------
PS. Here we are. From FJJP, Pprune- 5 years ago - less four days. :ok:

The combuster start system was a clever system that allowed the engines to be started quickly and without the need for ground equipment (the system was also known as the 'rapid start system') . All you needed to start the Vulcan was a battery with enough power to start the AAPP (Airborne Auxiliary Power Plant - a Rover gas turbine engine in the wing behind the starboard main undercarriage bay) which had a single alternator attached to it to provide AC power for the aircraft.

Once the AAPP was up and running and the electrics on line, the pilot selected rapid start, set the throttle to the 50% position and pressed the start button. A small combustion chamber was fed with high pressure (compressed) air and fuel, ignited and the resulting high speed gas fed into a small turbine, whose shaft was connected to the engine compressor stage via a gearbox and clutch. This wound the engine quickly up to self-sustaining rpm, where the main engine start cycle would continue. The process took about 3-4 secs by which time the engine would be lit and accelerating beyond idle speed. The pilot would then throttle back to re-set the start system, and carry out the after start checks.

That decribes the 'single rapid' start. The 'ripple rapid' start was where the pilot placed all 4 throttles at the 50% position and carried out the above procedure on each engine one after the other (as quickly as it took him to press each start button immediately after each other). This meant that all 4 engines could be up and running and ready for taxy within 7-8 secs.

The 'mass rapid' start was a different kettle of fish, and rarely use after the mid-sixties (and then usually only for special demonstration purposes). Here the whole aircraft was 'cocked', ie switches and levers set in a special way. The settings for the 'ripple rapid' were applied and left like that (usually on QRA). When the crew entered the aircraft, the pilot pressed the 'mass rapid' button. All 4 engines rapid started together, but - and here's the difference - so did all the PFCs (power flying controls). The brakes were released and the ac taxyed immediately, or took off within 2 mins if sitting on the end of the runway in the QRA fingers.

Another part of the system was ability to use low pressure air from the compressor of one engine to start another, known as a 'crossfeed start'. Typically, a pilot would 'rapid start' one engine and use the air from that to start each of the others individually, using 70% power to provide sufficient air volume. However, if he selected 93%, he could start the remaining three engines together.

A fantastic and well thought out system that gave Vulcan crews incredible flexibility to operate independantly.

[Yellow Sun]

The mass rapid system was still operative in the '70s but rarely (never) used. The ripple procedure described above was much more reliable and employed whenever a scramble from RS05 on the ORP was called for. The engine start order was 2,3,1,4 and then you held your thumb on the Rudder PFC Start button and that started all the PFCs in sequence. The one button on that panel that was inop was "Gyro Hold Off" as that was a Blue Steel only feature.

Scramble demos at BofB displays were quite regular features in the 1960-70s. I recall doing at least two at Finningley.

YS

[ZH875]

Nothing beats the feeling of a being on the see-off team during a 4 Vulcan ORP scramble.

Upto 16 engines were rapid started (or rapid/crossfed), the earth would vibrate and your whole body tried to shake itself to bits.

Even after the aircraft had departed, it took some time for your feet to stop tingling.

Them were t'days.:):ok:

[Blacksheep]

The combuster system was only fitted to the B2s. B1/B1As had electric start, using starter/generators. The 112v dc generators were set to start mode and once the engines were running the AEO switched them over to generate mode. If he forgot to isolate the busses first (as some did) the generator drive shaft would shear - crippling the aircraft - which had electrically powered PFCs. On QRA or demo scrambles we used "Simstart" trollies equipped with an array of batteries and a set of leads for each engine. These were plugged in at the main wheelbays, with the slack draped across the drag braces. You stood on the wheels to unplug the leads and disentangle the cables and if the aircraft started moving before you were done, you had to walk on them like a lumberjack - a process known as "wheeldancing". We had a mixture of B1As and B2s at Waddington and the B1As were always quicker off the mark. Glory Days, they were and for those who've forgotten (or never knew) back then everyone - especially the hippies - believed that a nuclear holocaust was inevitable. We took it seriously because it was serious and for those involved it wasn't a case of a "Cold War" at all...

[forget]

Very good Vulcan site here - don't know how current it is.

http://www.spxtraining.com/niactest/

[denis555]

Wow a 'lost' Vulcan stranded in ths Californian sunshine and nobody knows what to do with it.... ( crate it up and send it home? - It'll need a big crate...):eek:

[forget]

Here's a sister site where the current guardian of 605 is seeking information on certain kit(s). His e-mail address is there. Why not put any advice on here and then tell him of this site. (Hard to believe - that awful RadAlt was fitted as late as '81. Is that right? Proper RadAlts, same as the Trident, were being fitted 15 years earlier.)

http://www.vulcanxm605.20m.com/interior.htm

[S'land]

XM605 is on loan from the British Government to the USAF, who have, in turn, loaned it to the Castle Museum.

So, she could be brought back to the UK, or taken to Canada. However, I suspect that the costs would be horrendous for a) transporting and b) restoring her. Twenty-seven years sitting without any maintenance must have taken its toll on her. We only have to look at the problems that XH558 has gone through, and she was well maintained.

Shame really, would be nice to see another one fly.

[ZH875]

Hard to believe - that awful RadAlt was fitted as late as '81. Is that right?


I don't think so. The Rad Alt 6 was already fitted when I was posted to Vulcans in '79, and looked like it was well past its sell by date even then.

[Dan Winterland]

Combusters were still being used on the Victors right until their scrapping. The K2 only had them on engines 3 and 4, whereas the B2s had them on all four. We regularly practiced combust starts and used them in anger occaisionally. The main benefit was if you didn't have ground power. You could start an engine combusting and crossbleed the rest. I did that in anger at Palermo in such a situation. A very impressive jet of flame and smoke shot out from below the engine and got the attention of ATC who dispatched the fire crews. The crew chief only just managed to stop them filling the engines with foam!