USA vs EU

[airbandit]

Hi everyone,

Currently I need to decide in which aviation school I will need to study.
Can anyone (from your own experience) explain benefits of JAA training in EU, and JAA training in USA.

Thanx for answers :ok:

[Adios]

I think each FTO will need to explain the specific benefits of their courses, which won't necessarily arise solely from their location. A dose of critical thinking is helpful to the wannabe in sorting through the feature/benefit lists that each will communicate to you. Finally, features others think are meaningful may not be important to you and vice versa. The key is to do enough research to inform your decision well.

JAA training is JAA training. Period. The standards one must meet to pass the theory exams and check rides are the same on both sides of the Atlantic.

JAA does not allow the entire fATPL training to be done in the USA though. The IR check ride must be done in European airspace, which also necessitates a portion of the flying be done in Europe so the student is familiar enough with the airspace, radio calls, etc. to pass the check flight. Each US JAA FTO will probably have an EU location or training partner to provide some or all of the IR training and skills test.

[portsharbourflyer]

If you are going to train in the US, do FAA ratings and then convert back to JAA ratings in an EU country.

The instructional standards at JAA approved schools in the US tend to be ok. However JAA approved schools in the US do tend to charge premiums for the JAA approval compared to the equivalent FAA training and are quite often poorly managed as well.

[Adios]

I would urge caution about taking FAA ratings and converting them to JAA due to the extra time and expense. You'll need to do some detailed budget planning for both routes; JAA in US/EU and FAA in US to JAA conversion in EU.

Step 1 in conversion is to do JAA theory, which will take about six months. Some people do it by Distance Learning and knock it out a bit quicker but I think most people need six months. That's how long it takes if you do it in a full time classroom course also.

It could then take several more months for CPL and IR conversion. This will depend greatly on the school you choose and the weather, which tends too be poor during the winter in the UK, but maybe better in southern Europe.

The conversion method will cost you a minimum of 8 extra months of meals and accommodation and probably £10K to £15K in training costs. It also delays the date you can start a job and earn wages. The delay actually might not be so bad the way the economy is rumbling right now though.

Also remember if you do FAA then JAA conversion, you can do the JAA CPL conversion course in the USA and it should be less expensive there.

[portsharbourflyer]

I would agree that converting FAA ratings is not necessarily any cheaper but it is an advantage to hold both JAA and FAA ratings due to the amount of N registered stuff based in the UK/Europe. However consider the following.

Study and take the JAA exams prior to the FAA flight training in the States, hence no delay between finishing FAA ratings and conversion in Europe.

Other option get on a J1 visa program gain FAA CPL/ME IR CFI, while working as an FAA instructor in the US you can study for the JAA ATPL thoery and the JAA exams can even be taken in the US. At the end of the year alot of hours in the log book plus JAA theory completed, return to Europe for CPL and IR conversion.

[Adios]

Two good ideas that make a lot of sense. Did you take one of these routes yourself?

[portsharbourflyer]

If you were to ask me if I could go back and repeat my training again knowing what I now know then the FAA route with a j1 visa is the route I would take. It was colleagues of mine that took the routes mentioned in my post.

[airbandit]

And how much time and money does it cost to convert JAA to FAA???

[AlphaMale]

Study and take the JAA exams prior to the FAA flight training in the States, hence no delay between finishing FAA ratings and conversion in Europe.

Do you mean study and take the 7 JAA PPL exams at a local flying school before heading to a US flight school for an FAA PPL? ... I'm a little confused?

Although the idea of doing my 7 JAA PPL exams locally and then only having to concentrate on flying in the US for a JAA PPL does sound appealing.

I'm already hooked on the idea of FAA licences and ratings and then converting them, sounds like some great flying and a great life experience as an FI in the the US.

Is it possible to do the FAA PPL exam and Oral before going to the US? Am I wrong in thinking it can/could be done at Flight Safety in Farnborough?

Thanks.

[portsharbourflyer]

Alpha,

Just to clarify this is reference to the JAA ATPL theory,

If intending to do FAA CPL and IR and then return immediately to Europe for conversions best to do the JAA ATPL theory before going to the US, that way there is no lenghty gap between the US flight training and the JAA conversion training.

If intending to work in the US as an FAA CFI on a J1 visa then the JAA thoery can be studied while working as an FAA CFI, hence no need to study theory prior to the training in the US.

FAA writtens can be taken in Farnborough. Oral test will have to taken in the US as these are conducted on the same day as the "check ride" for which ever rating/license you are testing for.

[airbandit]

so ok, if I do my JAA atpl and JAA PPL here in EU and then go to USA convert theory to FAA do all my flying for IR and Multi Engine go back to EU convert IR and all flying? sounds a bit crazy... But after all this I would have both FAA and JAA.

[portsharbourflyer]

Airbandit. Yes correct you would be both dual FAA and JAA licensed and rated. Nothing crazy about that either.

Also the FAA has a written exam and oral exam per license and/or rating so the thoery part of the FAA can be covered alot more quickly than the JAA 14 thoery exams. The FAA writtens are a matter of leaning the questions to an extent; for the oral exams you will really need to know the subject (in some ways a good system you can't just learn stuff from a question bank it is a test of your true understanding of aviation knowledge).

[BigGrecian]

JAA thoery can be studied while working as an FAA CFI

Virtually impossible.

The ATPLs will take circa 6 months and that's full time study.

I have never see someone who is new FAA CFI cope with instructing and studying for the JAA ATPL theory. Many start, but they all end up stopping instructing, to concentrate on the theory, or even returning to Europe.

[portsharbourflyer]

Very valid point Big Grecian. However I would state that 12 to 14 months is a more realistic timescale for distance learning ATPL, I am not suggesting anyone should attempt it in 6 months. A colleague of mine managed to study the ATPL theory over 12 months distance learning while working as a FAA CFI.

There lots of us who managed to do ATPL thoery along side full time jobs, although distance learning isn't for everyone.

I agree it is not easy but not impossible and it will vary between individuals. Remember the clock for the ATPLs doesn't start ticking until the first exam is sat, no reason why you can't spend 12 months studying for module one while in the US, leaving only module two to be completed back in the UK. This will still save some time.

[AlphaMale]

Am I correct in thinking you have 18 months to complete your ATPL exams? i.e. you'll need to pass exam 14 no later than 18 months after sitting exam 1?

Then there is the time scale of having to get your CPL and IR within 36 months of passing your last ATPL exam.

If so 6 months of FAA MEP/CPL/IR/CFI followed by 18 months of working as a CFI should give enough time to complete the ATPL via Distance learning?

I can't afford to take 6 months of work so working in my current job or as a CFI in the US makes no difference really. I'll get paid more in my current job but I'll enjoy being a CFI 100 times more and it'll help toward employment back in the UK (I'd hope).

Thanks

[BigGrecian]

If you referring to the time taken on a J1 visa - as far as I am aware, no one has completed their FAA Licences ATPLS and converted in the time frame allocated of 2 years.

It simply isn't possible alongside working as a CFI. All flight schools are pressured for instructors right now and they're going to work you hard so that you won't want to/be able to study in the evenings.

If you want to instruct in the States do your JAA stuff first - that is your priority if that's where you want to fly, then you can worry about FAA conversions (JAA>FAA being a easier conversion route) and instructing.

[portsharbourflyer]

The sensible suggestion for anyone condisering this route in light of BG's input is to get the ATPL thoery exams passed prior to training in the US; with 36 months validity for the exams then there is still time to work in the US as an instructor on a J1 visa and complete the conversions.

The other bit of general advice (irrespective and where and when you are studying) is where alot of peole fall over is trying to do distance learning as two stages; split it into three stages and it becomes alot more manageable.

Doing all JAA ratings then convert to FAA, yes it is an easier from a training point of view but you will have negated any savings to be obtained from doing FAA ratings initially. Plus as said avoid JAA approved training in the US.

[AlphaMale]

Back to plan 'A' for me then.

Getting FAA PPL during holiday leave from current job, coming back and studying the ATPL GS (over 12 months) then handing in my notice - followed by a 2 year experience in the states to complete FAA licences to CFI, work there as an instructor on a J1 Visa, then simply coming home and carrying out the conversions :ok:

Only problem I have now (nothing to do with the flying mind you) is that I *might* have a job interview next week for a contract job earning twice what I am now. Downfall of this is the 5.5 weeks I have built up with my current employer will be paid (nice Brucy bonus) but I'll struggle to get 4/5 weeks off with my new employer :ugh:

Thanks guys.

[zapoi67]

Looks like real life :8

Choosing between dreams and realism.... :ugh:

[BigGrecian]

Alphamale - considered doing your FAA/JAA at the same time. Go to a school where the instructors are dual qualified then your training will count towards both at the same time, and you could take the test one after the other (CPL in the states anyhow!?)

[AlphaMale]

BigGrecian - I was aware of this and a great idea of course.

I would probably look into this if I take my 'Plan A'. With 12/18 months of studying for my ATPL GS I prices could vary and I'd asses my finances/situation and their prices at the time.

I'd probably go to OFT if I was going to kill two birds with stone out there.

But might it look better for my to have both my CPL and IR conversion done in UK airspace by B-F-C or Airways for example? as opposed to passing a CPL in the US and a ME-IR in the UK? ... It's probably here nor there as I've read there are a few airline pilots on here that passed their JAA CPL in the US and JAA ME-IR in Spain and had no disadvantage gaining employment.