Charged a dual rate up until GFPT?

[dj Mcrae]

I was informed that my solo hours up until GFPT will be the same rate as dual?
Is this standard practice?

$215ph for the mighty Tomahawk.

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I only paid Dual when the guy was sitting next to me.

My first solo was charged at solo rates.

something like .7 Dual and .2 Solo.

they sound like they are ripping you off mate.

[elche]

$215p/h?? WOW!! I was flying the Tommy back in 2004/2005. The going rates back then were $130p/h for Private hire, $150p/h for Solo rate, and $170 or $180 for Dual...

During my pre-PPL training (no GFPT for me) I was being charged the SOLO rate when 'solo' and DUAL rate when with an instructor. When I completed my PPL, I was under the impression I would be charged Private Hire rate... I was soon told by the owner of the school that any flight I took under Private Hire would not count towards the 150hr training syllabus... :ouch: Not happy with that, I decided to change over to the 200hr syllabus and put up with the GST.... The owner reacted by changing the Private Rate to the same rate as the SOLO!!! :hmm::rolleyes::=:=:=

I still don't regret changing syllabus though, since I can hire planes from anywhere at much cheaper rates, specially a twin costing around $100p/h cheaper!!! GST included! :E:ok:

Now, where to find a decent place to do my MECIR...

[greenslopes]

Nope you are being ripped off.
Dual Is dual/solo is solo
Change schools, chances are if they are ripping you off this early it will only continue the longer you remain a customer of theirs.
Might be well worth going to a little regional operator as they tend(there is always an exception to the rule) be more honest/accountable/trustworthy.

I did my commercial licence in the big smoke after having done my private in the country and looking back I got such better service from the owner operator than some pimply underpaid instructor who needed to churn through as many students as possible to survive.

Good luck and do what your gut tells you.........It is usually right!

[ABX]

Hi Deej,

Firstly, I would do a little research - ask questions here on prune and make some phone calls to other schools etc - and find out if it is standard practise to charge dual when you are alone in the plane. Then plan your next step based on the information you have at hand.

Changing schools is always an option, but it seems to me that you are holding all the aces at the moment. An FTO is a business. Like all businesses they rely on the customers to exist. A simple discussion with them - on pleasant terms - and an explanation that you don't like paying dual when you're the only person in the plane and you feel that this is a bit out of order, followed by a simple and clear request for them to cease charging dual and credit your account with moneys already over paid is likely to have a positive result for you.

This really only works if you make sure to keep your temper under control and not allow yourself to say anything in the heat of the moment. Don't allow yourself to be intimidated by the other person losing their temper though!

If they refuse, that is only round one.

Following rounds would involve much of the same thing until you feel that you can either live with the status quo or move to a new school.

Just remember this: FTOs are similar to real estate agents in as much as they would like you to believe that something simple is really quite difficult. Not only that you cannot do it without them but, they are God's gift to you. (Like they're the ones doing you a favour!)

This is not so, in the case of the FTO you are the one holding the dollars and they are providing you with a service - not the other way around.

In the case of real estate agents - why bother at all? I have bought and sold numerous properties without the 'help' of an agent and each transaction was perfectly safe and successful and each transaction saved me multiple thousands of dollars.

To summarise my personal thoughts: I would always try to work it out with the school you're at, but don't be afraid to take your business and your money to a new school if it comes to that.

ABX:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

I have heard in the past of helicopter schools where the dual rate was lower than the solo rate, the reason being INSURANCE!:eek:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I seem to recall that some schools (not many) charged this way back in the old days when I was training. However, if you looked at the total cost (dual and solo) of a typical PPL there was not a lot in it.

How does it compare with other training organisations?

$215/hr for a Traumahawk is a bit of a shock compared to the $20.50/hr dual that I paid for a C150 in 1973.

Call it a 10 fold increase.

In 1973 you could buy a Holden Kingswood for $3300 compared with what today? $35-40k

So maybe $215/hr dual for a trainer is not so bad.

Dr :8

[mingalababya]

Looks like you're getting ripped off. The difference between the dual and solo rates is usually the cost of the instructor sitting next to you.

The going rates back then were $130p/h for Private hire, $150p/h for Solo rate,

I've noticed a few places these days charging different rates for solo and private hire. I don't recall that happening in the 80's and 90's. Is this a new trend and if so, why the different rates? Is it to do with the different insurance premiums for a licensed pilot and and pre-licensed pilot? (Apologies for the thread drift).

[Walrus 7]

In the words of the great philosopher, Daryl Kerrigan, "tell 'em to get stuffed."

I am pleased that this issue was brought to light out here, because it is an example of the way that smaller schools (an assumption on my behalf that a smaller school is involved in this case) are tackling the problem of falling PPL training. Instead of doing things smarter, they are just looking for more excuses to charge more money.

Very few PPLs have bottomless pockets, and those that do own their own planes. It is similar to the concept some schools tried of charging minumum hire rates, for example, having the aircraft away for one day would cost a minumum of four hours hire time. The fact that you only took it to a local airshow 30 mins flight time away was irrelevant.

Yes, times are tough, but the survivors will be the one who find better ways to stay afloat than squeezing stones hoping that blood comes out.

Walrus

[CoodaShooda]

Jeez Doc

You were being ripped off.

$16/hr dual for a C172 in 1972

[Awol57]

I think a few years back when I did some instructing this occured at the school I worked at. I think the reason behind it was to cover the costs of the briefs that weren't charged for and the supervision required as a solo student. Do you pay for the pre flight brief associated with the early flights?

Some schools you do, some you don't. Before everyone jumps on me, consider you are a business person (not a pilot), would you only charge your clients an hour when you spent 2 with them? Not saying its right or wrong, but lets at least take a realistic view of it.

I don't instruct anymore so I don't worry about it too much, my advice is the same as that mentioned above shop around and find the best deal you can!

[Triple Captain]

This is normal practice at a number of flying schools I know.

You need to remember that you have to be supervised by an instructor while you are flying solo all the way until you hold a PPL.

That being said 15 years ago I payed solo rates for solo flying and dual rates for dual flying.

You will find some flying schools have a 'Dual', 'Solo' and 'Private' rates.

[Capt Wally]

Seems somewhat unfair that dual is being charged for solo as many have mentioned here. But one thing that has not been said is for the dual rates yr paying 'dj' are you happy with their service? are you feeling as though yr getting value for money? You can tell that simply by how quickly you are advancing thru the course they are offering by not having them say, "ahhhh I think you may need a little bit more of that part of the trainin" when you know very well that you have it nailed such as good ldg's every time. If yr totally happy with how it's all going bar the charged rate then you have to way up the advantages of saving a few bucks as against going elsewhere.
This is not the first time I have heard dual rates being charged for ALL flying lessons inc Heli tuition whcih I enquired about last year learning there was no solo rates available, although I wasn't told it it may very well have been due to what "HH" said, insurance reasons.
Anyway 'dj' some more investigation is warranted by the looks of things & changing schools at this critical point would be difficult but certaintly not impossible. That my friend is yr choice, only you know if it doesn't feel right.

Good luck:ok:


CW

[Biggles_in_Oz]

The hourly rate depends on a lot of factors., parking and insurance are the big fixed-cost items, followed by the variable fuel and maintanence costs.
If the school is at an expensive airport then the fixed-costs are high, (but fuel might be relatively cheap)

Having said all that, $215/hr dual is still more expensive than Bankstown rates.

dj Mcrae what part of Oz are you in ?
Does your school charge extra for the ground (pre/post-flight briefings/lessons) or does it merge it into the aircraft rate ?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I know of an ultralight school that not only charges Dual for ALL training, but the CFI/owner sits next to you even when you are SOLO.

Why? I can only suppose that either:
a) he has so little faith in his own instruction product that he won't let the aircraft out of his sight; or
b) he doesn't insure his aircraft.

Either way, students logging "Command" time with the CFI sitting next to them is a fraud perpetrated against the student and against the RAAus system. :ugh:

School I trained at it was common practice for the CFI to say, after an hour of dual circuits: "Taxi over and refuel the aircraft, and you can log 0.2 solo for that, Ace" with a big :E grin.

School I now work for charges a Dual rate; a Solo rate, which as noted above is basically intended to cover the fact that you need to be signed out, briefed, and de-briefed for each solo lesson; and a Private Hire rate, which is "Here are the keys, see ya later". :ok:

We don't charge for briefs, but nor are the instructors paid to do them; result is probably not ideal, because the result is a "quick and dirty" approach to briefings so we can get flying and get paid. :hmm:

dj as others have said, think about what you're getting for the money and work it out. BTW: we're charging $210 dual in a Tommy.

[Monopole]

dj Mcrae, ask the school as to why. There may be a legit reason. You are not necessarily being ripped off, but only paying higher rates than others available.

Depending on what the differance in rates are and how close you are to completing your GFPT, I would not recommend changing schools right now. If you do, the new school will want to check you out in their a/c, do a few training area exercises and a few hours CCTs before they continue with the syllabus training (not right, but they will). In the end it will cost you more then paying the dual rates.

Once you have completed your GFPT, then you could look at another training organisation unless you are happy/work a deal, with where you are.....

[dj Mcrae]

Thanks everyone for your input i really appreciate it!

Yes i am generally happy with the school till this point. They have been polite, flexible and got me into the air so make no mistake they have my respect on these points. The reason i asked here is because i don't have anything else really to gauge off. Other schools i have rang have been mixed responses with No solo rates apply , No we have a standard GFPT rate, No we tried it and students got annoyed etc.

Briefings were carried out for parts of the syllabus
probably up until circuits being the last classroom brief being for EFATO, then large gap while on circuits, then first area famil, from then on, short ones that i have asked for eg. steep turns etc....

Tomorrow before i head out solo to the training area I will have to ask the CFI and his reasoning. I fall into the battler category and each dollar i have had to earn. Not like some others that have mum and dads chequebook to play with hence why i bought this up.

thanks
dj

[rmcdonal]

Lets ignore the Expensive Toma price for the moment, I know of a few schools who charge duel when flying solo, the excuse I heard was that the instructor still has to supervise the solo flight up till GFPT. Therefore they are still required to be paid and as such you get charged for their time.

[Islander Jock]

DJ, Some schools charge a reduced "supervised solo" rate for times when the instructor is not actually flying with you. As Tripple Captain said though, you are a student and an instructor still has to supervise your flying which includes signing off the daily inspection on the MR if it hasn't already been done.
Supervised Solo, where applied, can be more thatn $20 per hour less than the dual rate.

[Monopole]

Islander Jock, if what you and a few others have said is infact the case, then the schools have my full support.

We have all sat here at sometime or another and demanded better T&Cs. The day seems to be comming to an end where instructors are required to be at work all day supervising solo students and not getting payed a cent for it. How naive are we to think this would not be passed onto the client/customer.

[Cap'n Arrr]

I've seen this one a few times. Usually it boils down to the fact that the solo rate is simply the cost of the plane, while the dual rate is the solo rate plus the cost of having an instructor. Pre GFPT, the instructor MUST stay on the ground at the school, or in the local training area. They cannot go home, or on a Nav, so you are most likely paying a Dual rate in order to pay for their time.

Even if we aren't in the plane, we're still responsible for you :ok:

[ABX]

Seems like a reasonable explanation Cap'n Arr. Still find it interesting that some schools charge dual time and some don't. I wonder what the difference is?

[poteroo]

The instructor supervising the solo student must remain on the ground while the student flies solo. This isn't productive time - which is why many schools charge a supervised solo rate of about $30/hr less than dual. If the instructor is a part-timer, they are paid about half their award rate for this time.

I can recall lots of hours spent sitting out in a paddock under a tree, brushing off hordes of friendly bushflies,listening out on a handheld, while a 'student' did endless circuits. Yes, it was at 'supervised solo' rates. And you think this should be free?? Wake up - the new generation of instructors won't be repeating the benevolent approach of the past.

happy days,

[RENURPP]

Cap'n ARR and poteroo seem to offer sensible advice.

Forget the comments suggesting you are being ripped off for the moment and have a think and make a few phone calls.
Its pretty hard to determine who knows what they are talking about here some times. Take all advise with a grain of salt, and do some investigating yourself.

I have absolutely no idea what schools are charging these days. Phone a few see what they offer.
Solo hours required x solo rate + Dual hours required x Dual rate = ? divide this amount by the toatl hours and you will get a rough idea of how two companies compare.
Do they all charge for briefings?
Determine if there are any other extra charges that could affect either organisation.

Consider the benifits of paying dual for your training.
IF your instructor is paid for the whole time you are flying up to GFPT, he will likely be a more content instructor(maybe not).
If he is only paid whilst he flies, i.e. when you are dual, he could conceivably spend more time dual, = more $$$ out of your pocket and more in his. This is possibly more likely to happen if you are only charged at the solo rate.

You need to do some home work and ask some questions.

At the end of the day, its the quality of the training that will save you $$$ and enable you to enjoy your flying, even if it costs you a few extra $$/hr.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

And the gouging continues. The school yard cycle:yuk:

[Clearedtoreenter]

Is $215 dual expensive???

Have just taken a look at a highly reputable flying school (not BK) website and paste the following directly from there...

PIPER TOMAHAWK (PA38) : VH-

Hire: $207.00 ($188.18) Dual: $287.00 ($260.90)

Basic 2 seat low-wing trainer.

Normally there are rates for hire, dual and solo but I have noticed some don't have a separate solo rate these days - training is training after all and when you are sitting by the side of the runway biting your nails watching your prodigy on their first solo, yoy are still there. Maybe $215 is the solo rate and the instructor comes for free!

Operating any aircraft with Avgas upwards of $1.70 per litre, insurance, hangarage and airport charges - and the real biggy MAINTENANCE is becoming quite prohibitive and we should not be too surprised at those rates. Some operators who are trying not to pass-on the real costs will go out backwards pretty soon.

If you are happy with your $215/hr school and the instructors, stick with it, they are obviously a real steal!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

RENURPP's post is valid. If your instructor is well payed there is every chance you will get quality instruction. If these guys charge essentially a flat rate of $215ph to GFPT. If that goal is reached in minimum required hours at the REQUIRED STANDARD then that is money saved in comparison to even taking just ten hours longer to reach that goal and learning just enough to get passed. Investigation is required, talk to past students.

[Old Fella]

Unless things have changed a Mid North Coast Aero club, affiliated with the RFACA, has always charged dual rate to all students until, pre GFPT days, they achieved their RPPL and latterly up until the completion of the GFPT. The rationale was/is as many other posters have indicated, that although the student may have been flying solo the Flying Instructor was responsible for planning the flight sequences.

[Johnny_56]

In 1973 you could buy a Holden Kingswood for $3300 compared with what today? $35-40k

Jeez i reckon i could by a 1973 kingswood for less than $3300 these days - $35 - $40 sounds a bit steep to me ! :8

[Scottzilla90]

I have worked at a number of flying schools dununda and it is standard practice to charge the full dual rate for all flying up until GFPT because casa require those students to have "direct supervision".

That means that an instructor is supposed to be supervising the whole operation.

With instructors becomming rarer than rocking horse poo operators are forced to pay higher salaries and that has to be funded.

Anyway, I say (toung-in-cheek) that if you're worried about spending money, then Aviation is not the game for you!

[Cap'n Arrr]

*Copies down quote "Rarer than rocking horse poo" for future use*

:ok:

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

A student pilot is a student pilot whether they have a GFPT or not, they still need permission (CAR 5.66) from a flight instructor and must conduct the flight in accordance with that permission. That instructor has the responsibility of ensuing that the flight can be conducted safely and legally.

The way we charge:

Dual = instructor on board whether pilot is a student or not

Supervised Solo = student solo (with or without GFPT, authorising instructor paid for the supervision)

Hire = PPL or higher licence, no permission or supervision required from an instructor.

[Islander Jock]

the new generation of instructors won't be repeating the benevolent approach of the past.
Well said Poteroo :ok: Nor should they.

[gassed budgie]

If I've got someone doing laps and they're doing it solo they get charged the dual/training rate. How many of the above who are whinging about being charged dual rates instead of solo rates would go to work and expect to be paid nothing? If I have to be there, you get charged for my time. And $215 for a Tomahawk? We're here to make money sunshine.
If you don't like it go elsewhere.

[Kickatinalong]

DJ, they got you through your BAK, as the previous said if "I'm sitting out there on the scare chair you ARE paying dual, I'm not there to kick the dust with my boots baby". We charge $210 for a C152 dual so The Trauma Hawk is not that far off the money.
Kickatinalong.:ok:

[PyroTek]

If you get charged the dual rate while doing solo, does that mean you should get charged $210 to do a pre-solo exam for an hour with an instructor watching over your shoulder to make sure you don't cheat?

(Or at least the rate for hiring an instructor?)

[Islander Jock]

Pyro,
what a great idea. :ok:
But I think you are missing the point of the discussion.

[pw1340]

"Rarer than rocking horse poo"


Its not really that rare.....
where do you think saw dust comes from?:ok:

[dj Mcrae]

How funny! A total contrast in opinions on the matter.

First I want to remind a few that I wasn't making a complaint . I was asking way back in my first post if it was standard practice. :) With some of the comments about being ripped off etc i had to wait for fair and balanced arguments to get an idea.

As far as the 215 rate i had no idea if it was a good rate or not and don't really care as the instruction and hours are what count. Its what i pay and will continue to pay.

Scottzilla90 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=95629). Everyone needs to query if they are getting value for money on there endeavors as wasting it is regarded as a fools practice. People use places like this as a comparison for that exact reason. I am not worried about spending money ... I am worried about wasting it and in this case that would seem not to apply.